What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?'

[Soutpeel]

My answers to the three questions would be:

1. No

2. Yes. He is working for the Thai company which owns the condo.

3. Probably. The rental free month tips the balance.

1. I think it would be difficult for anyone to say anything but 'no' to to this as its your own personal property.

2. If I was asked pushed for an answer I would side with you and say 'yes'. In the eyes of the Thai authorities the condo is Thai ownned, regardless of whether its an individual or company.

3. It has to be yes. Its not the tenants property, the months rent is in effect payment, albeit in kind, and there is no way that a foreigner could get a work permit for such activities, even if he wanted one, as the construction trades are restricted to Thai's only.

The fact that the work would be carried out behind closed doors would make it difficult for immigration to detect, but the principle remains the same.

The answer to each of these scenarios is very easy to answer....could be yes, could be no..all depends on the interpretation of indivdual immigration/labour dept official involved, the current laws as they are written are very reliant on interpretation

[Nuff Said]

The answer to each of these scenarios is very easy to answer....could be yes, could be no..all depends on the interpretation of indivdual immigration/labour dept official involved, the current laws as they are written are very reliant on interpretation

Fair point, we all know that Thailand is full of vague rules and regulations. Foreigners have been busted for a variety of working violations, many of a minor nature, but I have yet to hear of one in trouble for decorating his own condo.

[Forkinhades]

^ indeed, and if they had been, I am sure there would have been post by now about it.

[Nuff Said]

The definition of what constitutes working in Thailand will always be a vauge one because its not always easy to draw a line between working, and simply carrying out ones personal everyday business and affairs. The word 'personal' is difinitive in my opinion. Take the following. Which, if any, would you consider to constitute 'working'.1. A foreigner decorating a condominium that is in his own name.2. A foreigner decorating a condominium that he 'owns' in a Thai company name.3. A foreign tenant decorating, at the request of the owner, Thai or foreigner, it doesn't matter, a condominium that is rented to him, in return for a rental free month. Answers, in my opinion.1. No.2. Maybe3. Yes.I was also hoping that one of the Mods would respond to my earlier posting regarding whether moderating this forum constitutes working, assuming that the mod is actually in Thailand when performing this role.

Regarding the last paragraph of the above, the silence is deafening. Another taboo subject?

[happyrobert]

THe OP's example is writing for a Bangkok based magazine.

But what about the case of a British writer, resident and registered for tax in the UK, who is commissioned by a British magazine or publisher to write an article or a book on, say, something to do with British history (in other words NOTHING to do with Thailand).

The writer will be paid in the UK into his or her UK bank account.

The writer decides to take a long holiday in Thailand and write the article or the book.

Should the writer be getting a Thai work permit?

A "hypothetical" response to this question: I write for a living. I had a landlord dispute. The landlord, knowing what I did, went to immigration. My lawyer intervened in a timely manner and informed me that when questioned by immigration, to deny writing while in Thailand even though the books are published Stateside and the money is deposited Stateside. He assured me this would be classified as work and would cause me great problems.

Use that "hypothetical" example as you will. But as another poster above stated: I would stay very private in your dealings with local friends who may later turn on you....

[Forkinhades]

@hr Indeed a good answer, and indeed you will get grassed by jealous fralangs here, and indeed again if the police have a reason, no matter what you are doing, they will want some tea money. It happens here in LOS

[Nuff Said]

Thai Immigration is far more concerned about the influx of construction workers from Lao, Cambodia and Burma, as they are directly taking work from Thai's, than the Westerner who earns a living from trading stocks on-line, or writes the odd book or magazine article from behind closed doors.

Having said that, regardless of what you do to make a living here, if its either working illegally, by that I mean carrying out work that foreigners are not allowed to do under any curcumstances, or engaging in something that is permitted, such as real estate brokering, but without a work permit, the chances of being grassed by a jealous fellow foreigner is a real one, especially if you can't keep you mouth shut and boast about what you do and earn to a retiree who plays by the rules but is struggling to get by on his pension.

Mind what you say, and to who!

Edited January 22, 2011 by Nuff Said

[tombkk]

Thai Immigration is far more concerned about the influx of construction workers from Lao, Cambodia and Burma, as they are directly taking work from Thai's, than the Westerner who earns a living from trading stocks on-line, or writes the odd book or magazine article from behind closed doors.

Having said that, regardless of what you do to make a living here, if its either working illegally, by that I mean carrying out work that foreigners are not allowed to do under any curcumstances, or engaging in something that is permitted, such as real estate brokering, but without a work permit, the chances of being grassed by a jealous fellow foreigner is a real one, especially if you can't keep you mouth shut and boast about what you do and earn to a retiree who plays by the rules but is struggling to get by on his pension.

Mind what you say, and to who!

Somehow, I don't think that Thai Immigration is concerned about the influx of construction workers or fishery assistants from neighbouring countries. With an unemployment rate of just 1%, these people are actually needed, and it is easy to get a work permit for them.

However, Westeners working here without WP are a more serious issue, as they are not paying taxes. Many who could get a work permit (some bar owners and language teachers come to mind) prefer not to do so. It is difficult for the Immigration to catch these people, and I hear that they (Immi) are much more efficient in Chiang Mai than in Bangkok. They are grateful for any tips, so I suggest to the expats on this forum to get their paperwork in order and be legal.

[Soutpeel]

However, Westeners working here without WP are a more serious issue, as they are not paying taxes. Many who could get a work permit (some bar owners and language teachers come to mind) prefer not to do so. It is difficult for the Immigration to catch these people, and I hear that they (Immi) are much more efficient in Chiang Mai than in Bangkok.

Although I agree with your sentiment, I dont think the prime motivation for immigration for going after people is none payment of tax, as with all goverment departments the world over, if its not in their work scope they are not interested. ie taxation falls under a different department.

I wouldnt have thought immigration wouldnt be interested if someone pays tax or not...however their scope is make sure you are here legally, and have the correct paperwork for the reason you are staying in Thailand

[ESB7]

Of course you would be working but the chance of anyone knowing or getting caught isnt there........the law is percieved too strictly...how many people work on websites at home or are online marketing etc......also there are many foreigners working legally in Thailand as chefs, barmen, hoteliers etc etc etc and those are jobs that can easily been done by Thai Nationals.Of course the answer on this website will always be NO YOU CANT.....I did a morning teaching a few months ago and got paid 1,000 Baht....it was at the Tessaban and paid by them, right next door to the police station whose kids were also in attendance.....did I have a WP, No...did I get arrested, imprisoned or deported No...

[Soutpeel]

Of course you would be working but the chance of anyone knowing or getting caught isnt there........the law is percieved too strictly...how many people work on websites at home or are online marketing etc......also there are many foreigners working legally in Thailand as chefs, barmen, hoteliers etc etc etc and those are jobs that can easily been done by Thai Nationals.Of course the answer on this website will always be NO YOU CANT.....I did a morning teaching a few months ago and got paid 1,000 Baht....it was at the Tessaban and paid by them, right next door to the police station whose kids were also in attendance.....did I have a WP, No...did I get arrested, imprisoned or deported No...

This all may be true, but the topic here, just to refresh is "What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?' The definition by law"....therefore in terms of this thread the answer is...NO YOU CANT...if you dont have a WP

Per your example above.....Was the police station normal plods or was it immigration ?....if normal plods, chances are they wouldnt be interested if you have a WP or not, not their job scope per se.....this falls under the immigration police.

As to your statement that there are many foreigners working legally in jobs a Thai national could do..this maybe so, but at the end of the day the decision to hand out a WP to a foreigner in any position rests with the Labour office, therefore one assumes the people who get the WP in the situation described must be deemed to comply with labour requirements

[ESB7]

Of course you would be working but the chance of anyone knowing or getting caught isnt there........the law is percieved too strictly...how many people work on websites at home or are online marketing etc......also there are many foreigners working legally in Thailand as chefs, barmen, hoteliers etc etc etc and those are jobs that can easily been done by Thai Nationals.Of course the answer on this website will always be NO YOU CANT.....I did a morning teaching a few months ago and got paid 1,000 Baht....it was at the Tessaban and paid by them, right next door to the police station whose kids were also in attendance.....did I have a WP, No...did I get arrested, imprisoned or deported No...

This all may be true, but the topic here, just to refresh is "What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?' The definition by law"....therefore in terms of this thread the answer is...NO YOU CANT...if you dont have a WP

Per your example above.....Was the police station normal plods or was it immigration ?....if normal plods, chances are they wouldnt be interested if you have a WP or not, not their job scope per se.....this falls under the immigration police.

As to your statement that there are many foreigners working legally in jobs a Thai national could do..this maybe so, but at the end of the day the decision to hand out a WP to a foreigner in any position rests with the Labour office, therefore one assumes the people who get the WP in the situation described must be deemed to comply with labour requirements

And read my post....I said in Caps 'No You Cant'.........the correct answer to the OPs question is NO!!! but so again, many foreigners work here with a WP in proffessions that are supposedly for Thais and others work online without a WP.....I could give a classic example of persons working online without a WP but think I would get banned....so the OP could do the examples he stated without a problem providing he dosnt shout it from the rooftops......yes its illegal....so are drugs, so is riding without a helmet or drunk, prostituition and gambling and many other things......but many people have done that for years without consequence........the definition of law in many countries is broken, just because we are in Thailand it dosnt mean the definition is sacred......

[tombkk]

This all may be true, but the topic here, just to refresh is "What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?' The definition by law"....therefore in terms of this thread the answer is...NO YOU CANT...if you dont have a WP

Per your example above.....Was the police station normal plods or was it immigration ?....if normal plods, chances are they wouldnt be interested if you have a WP or not, not their job scope per se.....this falls under the immigration police.

This is an example of how the different government offices are not connected. I recently heard an example of a European whose work permit had expired about four years ago, and he keeps coming back to Thailand on a one-year non-B visa with multiple entry (no, I didn't ask where he got it). He keeps paying his income tax and even makes his yearly income tax declaration (PND 91). Without a WP!

To his credit, he is now applying for a new WP upon my advice. I suggested it to him in order to make him legal, but he insists that he is legal because he has a "B" (business) visa. What convinced him to do the paperwork is that he won't have to leave the country every three months.

[Nuff Said]

OK, here's a hypothetical example of what could constitute working.

Bill and Ben are mates. Bill is a retired TV servicing engineer, and Ben is a dab hand with computers.

Bills computer got a viris. He called Ben and asked him to check it out. A couple of hours later Ben had done the heccessary and Bills computer was fine again.

Next day Ben's television developed a fault. He called Bill and asked him to take a look. A couple of hours later Bill had done the neccessary and Ben's TV was fine again.

Does this constitute working, or simply a case of 'foreigners helping foreigners?'

[venturalaw]

OK, here's a hypothetical example of what could constitute working.

Bill and Ben are mates. Bill is a retired TV servicing engineer, and Ben is a dab hand with computers.

Bills computer got a viris. He called Ben and asked him to check it out. A couple of hours later Ben had done the heccessary and Bills computer was fine again.

Next day Ben's television developed a fault. He called Bill and asked him to take a look. A couple of hours later Bill had done the neccessary and Ben's TV was fine again.

Does this constitute working, or simply a case of 'foreigners helping foreigners?'

Yes. Particularly in both situations because, theoretically, it can be argued that you are divesting a Thai from an opportunity to ply his trade.

Edited January 25, 2011 by venturalaw

[KoratFarang]

Sometimes i dont know what to do.

8 month ago i paid thais to put stones outside my rentet home, and the owner of the house did not reduse the rent or paid anything for that. But 2 month ago some stones started to break and fall off.

So i went to the people who did do the job before and they prommised to come and change the stones and i would pay again, but they never came, now i and been going there more than 15 times and they are still not comming, so i ask other people to fix it and the same storie happent again and because of this more and more stones are falling off, so what can i do !!!

So this morning i put cement by myself to provent more stones to fall off................ what else was there to do ???

[venturalaw]

Sometimes i dont know what to do.

8 month ago i paid thais to put stones outside my rentet home, and the owner of the house did not reduse the rent or paid anything for that. But 2 month ago some stones started to break and fall off.

So i went to the people who did do the job before and they prommised to come and change the stones and i would pay again, but they never came, now i and been going there more than 15 times and they are still not comming, so i ask other people to fix it and the same storie happent again and because of this more and more stones are falling off, so what can i do !!!

So this morning i put cement by myself to provent more stones to fall off................ what else was there to do ???

If you are suggesting that this violates Thai law, my guess is that it does not. Basically when you are providing services for yourself - making repairs to your home, driving yourself somewhere, etc., that is not work.

[Amras]

Thai working laws are strange. I don't know if it was intended to describe helping others as 'working' or if the wording just resulted in certain people interpreting it that way (be that immigration etc). Remember policy makers are often not the ones enforcing their policies. And said policies are often not adequately clear or precise enough to inform the enforcers of the lines etc.

In any case, this means if I fix my girlfriends computer for her (knowing how to fix them) it would constitue working. Which in any ones book is completely absurd. I wonder how many thais help each other out though, or do they just get someone else to come and fix it, pay for a job to be done etc. Its likely a product of a different society, where as in the west we do a lot for ourselves and also help others out.

I 'pray' that the laws are made much clearer, because honestly I think there are a lot of holes that when the law was made fails to account for in the 21st century, ie working remotely, making income outside the country etc. (excluding being paid 'offshore' but working for a Thai company which is clearly evasion of some kind). I am sure the laws weren't intended to imply working over the internet is work (even though it can be interpreted that way). I would even have a guess it was not considered when these policies were thought up (how many years ago), yet the wording was to cover ALL aspects of working in country were you can potentially displace a Thai worker. I do completely understand them trying to protect their own workforce from foreigners, every country does it and Thailand is no exception.

In fact one Scandanavian country (I think I can't recall) actually forbids you from doing your own work on your house etc. You always have to get someone in to do the work. The result is, there is little to zero unemployment. To far I think as people enjoying working on their property etc. But just to show Thailand isn't the worst out there.

[KoratFarang]

Sometimes i dont know what to do.

8 month ago i paid thais to put stones outside my rentet home, and the owner of the house did not reduse the rent or paid anything for that. But 2 month ago some stones started to break and fall off.

So i went to the people who did do the job before and they prommised to come and change the stones and i would pay again, but they never came, now i and been going there more than 15 times and they are still not comming, so i ask other people to fix it and the same storie happent again and because of this more and more stones are falling off, so what can i do !!!

So this morning i put cement by myself to provent more stones to fall off................ what else was there to do ???

If you are suggesting that this violates Thai law, my guess is that it does not. Basically when you are providing services for yourself - making repairs to your home, driving yourself somewhere, etc., that is not work.

I have a bar in korat, but my bar and home is in the same house. so you can say i did it both for my bar and my home i did not put up new stones just provented more stones to fall down.

Edited January 25, 2011 by KoratFarang

[Mario2008]

The law is what the judge says it is.

Wonder if there are any court decisions relating to this subject.

[KoratFarang]

Thai working laws are strange. I don't know if it was intended to describe helping others as 'working' or if the wording just resulted in certain people interpreting it that way (be that immigration etc). Remember policy makers are often not the ones enforcing their policies. And said policies are often not adequately clear or precise enough to inform the enforcers of the lines etc.

In any case, this means if I fix my girlfriends computer for her (knowing how to fix them) it would constitue working. Which in any ones book is completely absurd. I wonder how many thais help each other out though, or do they just get someone else to come and fix it, pay for a job to be done etc. Its likely a product of a different society, where as in the west we do a lot for ourselves and also help others out.

I 'pray' that the laws are made much clearer, because honestly I think there are a lot of holes that when the law was made fails to account for in the 21st century, ie working remotely, making income outside the country etc. (excluding being paid 'offshore' but working for a Thai company which is clearly evasion of some kind). I am sure the laws weren't intended to imply working over the internet is work (even though it can be interpreted that way). I would even have a guess it was not considered when these policies were thought up (how many years ago), yet the wording was to cover ALL aspects of working in country were you can potentially displace a Thai worker. I do completely understand them trying to protect their own workforce from foreigners, every country does it and Thailand is no exception.

In fact one Scandanavian country (I think I can't recall) actually forbids you from doing your own work on your house etc. You always have to get someone in to do the work. The result is, there is little to zero unemployment. To far I think as people enjoying working on their property etc. But just to show Thailand isn't the worst out there.

Think about all the people who goes on holliday in thailand. But they call there company and answer imporntent email even they are on holliday. All the friends i have on management level do that it does not matter where they go on holliday.

[KoratFarang]

The law is what the judge says it is.

Wonder if there are any court decisions relating to this subject.

Yes i would LOVE to know that too !!!

[Soutpeel]

Think about all the people who goes on holliday in thailand. But they call there company and answer imporntent email even they are on holliday. All the friends i have on management level do that it does not matter where they go on holliday.

And this is an important distinction in this whole arguement.,..They are genuine tourist who come on holiday and leave again... ......not somebody using tourists visa's as vehicle to remain in country indefinitely, operate business' or work to support their life in Thailand and getting "residence certificates" to get drivers licenses etc and finally not pay tax in a country they reside in....

I am pretty sure immigration would interept it the same way

[jazzbo]

If you are genuinely interested in whether a given short-term or long-term situation will be interpreted as 'work' under the local Ministry of Labor jurisdiction -- which is really all that counts -- there is at least one way to find out: Go in and ask them.

[Amras]

Think about all the people who goes on holliday in thailand. But they call there company and answer imporntent email even they are on holliday. All the friends i have on management level do that it does not matter where they go on holliday.

And this is an important distinction in this whole arguement.,..They are genuine tourist who come on holiday and leave again... ......not somebody using tourists visa's as vehicle tohttp://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=1&t=431390&qpid=4174308 remain in country indefinitely, operate business' or work to support their life in Thailand and getting "residence certificates" to get drivers licenses etc and finally not pay tax in a country they reside in....

I am pretty sure immigration would interept it the same way

There are other options besides tourist visa's though. Ie Non-O, study visa's etc. All of which indicate you wanting to spend a significant amount of time in the country. However, there really needs to be a way to legitimately stay in Thailand, do the right thing (ie pay tax, obtain a work permit etc) for these situations when working for someone outside of thailand (and not earning morning from Thailand). I can see no situation where this would not benefit Thailand (regardless how big or small) of they made it easier for people to work remotely while living in Country. Making the process easy would mean more people would pay tax, gain the correct paper work and still bring money into the country, without affecting the local labour market.

Can always hope.

[Nuff Said]

OK, here's a hypothetical example of what could constitute working.

Bill and Ben are mates. Bill is a retired TV servicing engineer, and Ben is a dab hand with computers.

Bills computer got a viris. He called Ben and asked him to check it out. A couple of hours later Ben had done the heccessary and Bills computer was fine again.

Next day Ben's television developed a fault. He called Bill and asked him to take a look. A couple of hours later Bill had done the neccessary and Ben's TV was fine again.

Does this constitute working, or simply a case of 'foreigners helping foreigners?'

Yes. Particularly in both situations because, theoretically, it can be argued that you are divesting a Thai from an opportunity to ply his trade.

I agree, strictly speaking they should have called Thai's in to do the work, and I specifically used this type of example as the work would have been carried out behind closed doors. But it would have been a different matter if Bills TV had gone wrong and Bens computer had picked up a virus, as repairing your own possesions cannot possibly be construed as working.

There needs to be an element of common sense, something often in short supply here, when deciding what constitues working. The regulations were drafted way before the age of cyber working, and that has resulted in a huge grey area in this field. What about someone who is a professional on-line gambler? Assuming the neccessary websites were accessable, what is to stop someone making a living here doing that? But getting a work permit may pose a problem or two!

The opportunities to earn a living on-line are numerous. Some may be a little dubious, and promise the earth, but that's not the issue here. Working on-line behind closed doors could be very difficult to prove, especially if not using a Thai based internet service provider. But I hope to never see the day when a genuine tourist is carted away by the immigration police for simply checking and responding to work E-Mails, something that an increasing number of people, 50% in a recent UK survey, are now expected to do in their leisure time.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Nuff Said

[Soutpeel]

There needs to be an element of common sense, something often in short supply here, when deciding what constitues working. The regulations were drafted way before the age of cyber working, and that has resulted in a huge grey area in this field. What about someone who is a professional on-line gambler? Assuming the neccessary websites were accessable, what is to stop someone making a living here doing that? But getting a work permit may pose a problem or two!

The opportunities to earn a living on-line are numerous. Some may be a little dubious, and promise the earth, but that's not the issue here. Working on-line behind closed doors could be very difficult to prove, especially if not using a Thai based internet service provider. But I hope to never see the day when a genuine tourist is carted away by the immigration police for simply checking and responding to work E-Mails, something that an increasing number of people, 50% in a recent UK survey, are now expected to do in their leisure time.

On the on-line gambling...the answer is easy....Gambling is illegal in Thailand away from any work permit issues...

Dont know if I agree with you saying the whole on-line thing is a grey area, if you work to the letter of the law as it stands...you need a WP, whether you will get caught is a separate debate..

[bangkockney]

I think the key to all this is who you are working for. If working for a Thai company or a Thai person(s) or doing business with any Thai entity then the law would be enforced.

I find it extremely unlikely that any work done in Thailand from the privacy of your own home for example a UK company would be punished. In these circumstances, the authorities would only be interested if the work was a front for something else, other work with a direct link to Thailand.

Employed and paid by a UK company, performing work that has nothing to do with Thailand, whilst in Thailand say on an O visa, would not see enforcement of the WP rules IMO. Unless you've made some enemies of course.

[Nuff Said]

There needs to be an element of common sense, something often in short supply here, when deciding what constitues working. The regulations were drafted way before the age of cyber working, and that has resulted in a huge grey area in this field. What about someone who is a professional on-line gambler? Assuming the neccessary websites were accessable, what is to stop someone making a living here doing that? But getting a work permit may pose a problem or two!

The opportunities to earn a living on-line are numerous. Some may be a little dubious, and promise the earth, but that's not the issue here. Working on-line behind closed doors could be very difficult to prove, especially if not using a Thai based internet service provider. But I hope to never see the day when a genuine tourist is carted away by the immigration police for simply checking and responding to work E-Mails, something that an increasing number of people, 50% in a recent UK survey, are now expected to do in their leisure time.

On the on-line gambling...the answer is easy....Gambling is illegal in Thailand away from any work permit issues...

Dont know if I agree with you saying the whole on-line thing is a grey area, if you work to the letter of the law as it stands...you need a WP, whether you will get caught is a separate debate..

I'm not a gambler, but am well aware that it is illegal here, and my reference to obtaining a work permit for such activities was light hearted to say the least. Having said that, about 8 years ago I did actually meet a professional gambler in Pattaya, though I don't know if he lived there full time. It was a Sunday evening, and I vividly recall him looking at his watch and saying that it was time to place a bet on an Italian Seria A game that was due to kick off soon.

With reference to on-line working being a grey area, I think it always will be, though the chances of being detected are small. But if a genuine foreign tourist was arrested for simply checking and replying to his work E-Mail, it would have to go in the 'You Couldn't Make It Up' category. I don't think it will ever happen, and hope it never does, but 'This Is Thailand'.

If in doubt about the need for a work permit, you can always ask. But if they say no, make sure you get it in writing.

[tombkk]

I think the key to all this is who you are working for. If working for a Thai company or a Thai person(s) or doing business with any Thai entity then the law would be enforced.

I find it extremely unlikely that any work done in Thailand from the privacy of your own home for example a UK company would be punished. In these circumstances, the authorities would only be interested if the work was a front for something else, other work with a direct link to Thailand.

Employed and paid by a UK company, performing work that has nothing to do with Thailand, whilst in Thailand say on an O visa, would not see enforcement of the WP rules IMO. Unless you've made some enemies of course.

You are saying that the person might not likely be caught, and I agree. However, is it against the law? I do think so.

It's not the UK company that gets punished, but the person working here without a work permit. It does not matter who your employer is, if you work here, you need a work permit.

So much for the law. Actually, I am not sure that this situation would be any different in Europe. Thai citizens on a Visitor Visa are not allowed to work, period. I don't think the law says they are allowed to work for a Thai company while in Europe.