Told A Monk About This Forum

[dutchguest]

Animism/Shamanism is the basic religion of mankind (Mircea Eliade). High respect for nature (by intuition) even without "scientifical knowledge". A Hmong friend told me that after the death of his mother he didn't kill any animal for two moons, scaring he kills his mother. When he killed a

wild pig he cut off his ears to fix them at the next tree. (I only take your meat because I want to survive, but your "soul" still stays at home, in your area. Some American Indians still are doing the same when they kill an animal, from Inuit I heard the same. Don't forget the All Blacks of New Zealand with their Maori War dancings before a rugby match.

The perverted form of animism is Consumerism.

I have the idea something is lost when animism was replaced by the present worldreligions (christianity, islam, to a lesser degree buddhism). The contact with nature is somehow broken. The present religions try to overcome nature, place themselves above nature. An identification with the head, the mind, with rational reasoning, with mental and cerebral functions as superior to other bodily functions.

In many animistic tribes woman have a much more important and respected place then in the present religions where woman have an inferior position and status and are not or hardly accepted to play a role. Traditionally woman are associated with the earth and the moon, man with the sun. I quote:

THE MOON AS (SUPPRESSED) FEMALE PRINCIPLE

In the Western world the relationship between church and astrology has not been without problems. Solar astrology was tolerated to some degree, but one was genuinely suspicious about lunar astrology for the moon symbolises a female principle.

Within a patriarchal culture that female principle is under severe suspicion (patriarchal means that the descent of a child is determined by who is the father of that child). Such a culture is dominated by masculine values and rules. The modern culture is a patriarchal culture.

We may have forgotten about them, but there have been periods of time when humanity was immersed in a world-wide matriarchal culture (here the descent is determined by who is the mother of a child). Long before the beginning of our era this culture has been destroyed by patriarchal conquerors. Recent archaeological findings indicate that in olden times the Jews for instance honoured a female goddess (called Asherah). One has forgotten all about that goddess. Her cult has been extinguished completely and the cult of Yahweh, the male god, has remained. In Greece there used to be a matriarchal culture as well. On the island of Samos for a long time rituals were being performed referring to those days.

There are strong clues that the Indus Valley culture that dominated India from 2500 BC until 1500 BC was a matriarchal culture, which can be deduced from the discovery of many goddess statues. The Indus valley culture was highly educated. The houses even had sewerage. It is very likely that the religion of the mother goddess (Devi) which has now been incorporated into Hinduism stems from this culture. In this culture the female principle was very important.

In the patriarchal culture of the Middle Ages the moon and the lunar zodiac were associated with black magic. A certain Giordano Bruno was the last person to write a book on the Western lunar zodiac. Perhaps it would have been better for him not to have done that for he died at the stake in 1600. This was the last we heard of the Western lunar zodiac (by the way the author of this document lives in Bruno-street).

In India astrology forms part of the religion. Hence astrology has always held a much stronger position than in the West. Moreover Indian people attach great value to old traditions. For these reasons the lunar zodiac has kept its significant position in India. Although India is dominated by a patriarchal culture nowadays, and the solar zodiac has become widely used and accepted, the lunar zodiac is still the second important system.

THE ZODIAC AND THE CALENDAR

Nowadays India has adopted the Western calendar. In that calendar months have a duration which main function is to fit in properly within the solar year.

However, in the original Indian calendar months last from one new moon until the next new moon. Full moon occurs half-way through such a month, which is named after the constellation during which full moon occurs. For example: If full moon takes place in spring during the constellation of Chitra, we call the month Chaitra

Until this day, in India religious holidays are determined by means of the lunar calendar, which is also custom in certain Buddhist countries like Thailand.

A lunar month lasts for approximately 29 days, this is a few days longer than it takes the moon to return to the exact same point of the zodiac. One year has 12 months. Because 12 (lunar) months have fewer days than 365 or 366, about every 3 years an extra month is added. By doing this, the year based on the actual months is in pace with the solar year.

The lunar zodiac is not some dusty relic from times gone by, but a system which, until today, has been used very often in India. The purpose of this is to give insight into the living tradition of the Indian lunar zodiac.

The quote is from this website:

http://www.dirah.org/lunarzodiac.htm

So personally I like the animistic remains in Thailand. They bring back the balance a little bit in favor of nature and woman. And also in favor of irrationality in a too much mental, rationalistic approach of especially the western world which has lost contact with nature and is destroying nature. We can learn a lot from the "primitives" in our relation with nature.

It is i.m.o. no coincidence that in Thailand heredity was and still is traditionally in the female line and woman play in many respects a more important role:

http://www.cpamedia.com/culture/thai_women_commerce/

[Xangsamhua]

Meditators often do see visions of their past lives or other realms.

I can't say I've ever come across any who claim to, except perhaps over excited beginners.

Even so a vision doesn't provide proof of anything, except perhaps an overactive imagination. After all if a vision were proof of anything then theists and new age types would have a monopoly on truth.

Perhaps not visions, but Buddha did appear to claim to "remember his past lifetimes as far back as he wanted" (David Loy). But your epistemological doubt still stands.

Luangpor Jaran (Rajsuddhinanamonkol), the vipassana master and abbot of Wat Ambhawan, Singhburi, seems to think it's not unusual to recall past lives in meditation. As an example of karma catching up with you, he tells the story of Dr Jalor, who recalled an incident in one of his past lives occurring at a place in Ratchaburi where he had killed someone, then in a later life, he recalled killing someone in Karnchanaburi. Subsequently, in this life, he was killed at that same place in Karnchanaburi. (The Law of Karma: Dharma Practice, Book 2, Bangkok 2001:159)

Luangpor Jaran seems to inhabit a place where the boundaries of this life/other lives; this time/other times; this world/other worlds are very porous.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[lungmi]

Whether it is faith or belief or whatever, we can find out the truth for ourselves ...by practice..... practice alone.

The Buddha was the doctor who gave us the cure for a disease.... but we have to take the medicine...not argue endlessly about its constituents, and whether we are really sick or not, and whether he is sure it works..... we have faith in him.

That works great with the teachings to do with understanding and training the mind,the true nature of experience, the right attitude, and behaviours etc, but that wasn't what Phetaroi was asking about.

How does one find out the truth about the existance of Mara, devas, gods, 31 realms, rebirth, 7 steps and then proclaiming future Buddhahood and all that jazz for ourselves ...by practice..... practice alone? Been having visions?

Meditators often do see visions of their past lives or other realms...which would be proof for them...and them alone, since they could not prove what they experienced to others. By practice we can reach the goal, whereupon the 31 realms, Mara etc. are irrelevant.

Right, I consider myself as "scientific buddhist", but I made experiences outside the limited view of western epistemology. The vinaya (although I am disrobed for decades) forbids me to speak about this (superhuman, not supernatural) to lay people, the ordination preceptor is the partner.

May be you , FabianFred, know an issue for this?

[rockyysdt]

Right, I consider myself as "scientific buddhist", but I made experiences outside the limited view of western epistemology. The vinaya (although I am disrobed for decades) forbids me to speak about this (superhuman, not supernatural) to lay people, the ordination preceptor is the partner.

May be you , FabianFred, know an issue for this?

The key to this Lungmi, is not revealing your experiences, but how did you judge them as real.

[lungmi]

Right, I consider myself as "scientific buddhist", but I made experiences outside the limited view of western epistemology. The vinaya (although I am disrobed for decades) forbids me to speak about this (superhuman, not supernatural) to lay people, the ordination preceptor is the partner.

May be you , FabianFred, know an issue for this?

The key to this Lungmi, is not revealing your experiences, but how did you judge them as real.

I just spoke to my abbot. No, problem, because it has nothing to do with special meditation experience. I have to omit secondary experiences

Your question is real.

I learnt Thai Massage in Chiang Mai (Jivaka Kumar Bhaccha lineage) the year after I disrobed.

On Mother's Day the Massage School went to a Mae Taeng Wat to practice.

An old woman with the help of her parents came crying for pain and laid down in front of me.

I cry with her, I was helpless, her pain was my pain. I asked a french physiotherapist to take my patient. He refused.

I was at the point zero. Alone together with the pain of my patient and the pain of my inability.

In this moment I took refuge to the mantra of the Father Doctor of the Massage School>

Mantra prayer to Jivaka Kumarabhacca

Om Namo Shivago Silasa Ahang Karuniko Sapasatanang Osatha Tipa-Mantang Papaso Suriya-Jantang. Gomalapato Paka-Sesi Wantami Bantito Sumethasso Arokha Sumana-Homi.

(3 times)

Piyo-Tewa Manussanang Piyo-Proma Namuttamo Piyo Nakha Supananang Pininsiang Nama-Mihang Namo Puttay Navon-Navien Nasatit-Nasatien Ehi-Mama Navien-Nawe Napai-Tang-Vien Navien-Mahaku Ehi-Mama Piyong-Mama Namo-Puttaya.

(1 time)

Na-A Na-Wa Lokha Payati Vina-Shanti.

(3 times)

Translation of this Pali prayer:

"We invite the spirit of our Founder, the Father Doctor Shivago, who comes to us though his saintly life. Please bring to us the knowledge of all nature, that this prayer will show us the true medicine of the universe. In the name of this mantra, we respect your help and pray that through our bodies you will bring wholeness and health to the body of our client.

The Goddess of healing dwells in the heavens high, while mankind stays in the world below. In the name of the Founder, may the heavens be reflected in the earth below so that this healing medicine may encircle the world.

We pray for the one whom we touch, that he will be happy and that any illness will be released from him."

/////////////////////

After the mantra (I recited it loudly or in my mind, I don't rember) a big energetic power came over me and I started the massage. I have no memory what I was doing after. There was no "I", no "self". My memory started again when the family came to help her to stand up. She stood up alone, made a big wai to me and walked away. But me, I was unable to stand up for some minutes.

/////////////////////////

Later, in a restaurant with the team, the director of the massage school told me, that I had been the "best" of the School. I got upset and kicked him down: Not me, Jivaka was the best.

What is real? The old woman stood up and had no more pain.

Edited January 20, 2011 by lungmi

[healthcaretaker]

Proof, proof, proof....I'm sick of Westerners demanding proof for everything. I've said a million times that there is only personal proof. If you cannot do the work then you will get no proof....period!

Careful...your ego is showing..."I can't say I've ever come across any who claim to, except perhaps over excited beginners.".... implying that because you've not had any then no-one can.

I find blind faith to be more a statement of ego than searching for facts. And while you may be sick and tired of Westerners searching for proof, it's the Easterners tendency to not seek proof that is probably a major factor in the degree to which animism has infiltrated Buddhist thought.

You are wrong again.

In fact, all Buddhism theories have facts, logic and reasons. It is some western religions like christianity that never or dare not seek for proofs and practised blind faith. What happens now ? More and more westerners who are born christians are having interests in Buddhism now.

As I always mentioned, Buddhism is far ahead of science in time. Not until science have developed the equipments needed, many theories thought by Buddhism, including past lives, for example cannot be proven(yet). At least science has also NOT proven any Buddhism "claims" to be wrong, as it did to christianity.

But it(seeing past lives) can be experienced, by some. I have made enough research and personally know some people saw it and able to describe it correctly.

I will explain next time why some can experience it, some cannot. This has to be another topic. Stay around and follow my posts.

Edited January 20, 2011 by healthcaretaker

[healthcaretaker]

Right, I consider myself as "scientific buddhist", but I made experiences outside the limited view of western epistemology. The vinaya (although I am disrobed for decades) forbids me to speak about this (superhuman, not supernatural) to lay people, the ordination preceptor is the partner.

May be you , FabianFred, know an issue for this?

The key to this Lungmi, is not revealing your experiences, but how did you judge them as real.

Sorry to interrupt. I did not follow all the posts. If you are refering to the "past lives". I know of 2 incidents that I believe they are real. One of them is my personal friend who was introduced to see his "3rd eye" and saw his past live as well as his father(still living) as a kid. He descibe what he saw to his father and ask whether it was true or not. You know the answer. I verified it with his father. No reasons for them to lie about it.

[phetaroi]

Proof, proof, proof....I'm sick of Westerners demanding proof for everything. I've said a million times that there is only personal proof. If you cannot do the work then you will get no proof....period!

Careful...your ego is showing..."I can't say I've ever come across any who claim to, except perhaps over excited beginners.".... implying that because you've not had any then no-one can.

I find blind faith to be more a statement of ego than searching for facts. And while you may be sick and tired of Westerners searching for proof, it's the Easterners tendency to not seek proof that is probably a major factor in the degree to which animism has infiltrated Buddhist thought.

You are wrong again.

In fact, all Buddhism theories have facts, logic and reasons. It is some western religions like christianity that never or dare not seek for proofs and practised blind faith. What happens now ? More and more westerners who are born christians are having interests in Buddhism now.

As I always mentioned, Buddhism is far ahead of science in time. Not until science have developed the equipments needed, many theories thought by Buddhism, including past lives, for example cannot be proven(yet). At least science has also NOT proven any Buddhism "claims" to be wrong, as it did to christianity.

But it(seeing past lives) can be experienced, by some. I have made enough research and personally know some people saw it and able to describe it correctly.

I will explain next time why some can experience it, some cannot. This has to be another topic. Stay around and follow my posts.

Where have I argued against past lives? No where. I have no problem with the concept of past lives. In fact, I believe in the concept.

But, once again, for no apparent reason, you feel the need to bash another religion. Buddhism is not about bashing other religions.

[Brucenkhamen]

Sorry to interrupt. I did not follow all the posts. If you are refering to the "past lives". I know of 2 incidents that I believe they are real. One of them is my personal friend who was introduced to see his "3rd eye" and saw his past live as well as his father(still living) as a kid. He descibe what he saw to his father and ask whether it was true or not. You know the answer. I verified it with his father. No reasons for them to lie about it.

I don't buy it, neither do I reject it.

I just don't see the benefit to my practice to lay a foundation for a belief based on anecdotes from other people.

What I have found beneficial in my practice is to embrace the unknown, not to be too quick to try and fill in the gaps based on heresay or what somebody wrote down 2500 years ago.

[lungmi]

Sorry to interrupt. I did not follow all the posts. If you are refering to the "past lives". I know of 2 incidents that I believe they are real. One of them is my personal friend who was introduced to see his "3rd eye" and saw his past live as well as his father(still living) as a kid. He descibe what he saw to his father and ask whether it was true or not. You know the answer. I verified it with his father. No reasons for them to lie about it.

I don't buy it, neither do I reject it.

I just don't see the benefit to my practice to lay a foundation for a belief based on anecdotes from other people.

What I have found beneficial in my practice is to embrace the unknown, not to be too quick to try and fill in the gaps based on heresay or what somebody wrote down 2500 years ago.

Next step in my explanations: I worked 10 years in Wat Umong Chiangmai with handicapped people. I met an old white Chinese monk, one of the Founders of Wat Po Massage.

He gave me instructions about energetic healing (later I learnt it was Tuina Massage from China). He told me, you already have 40 % of the potential for healing with energy (lom pran in Thai). I asked him, why? I never studied it, I never learnt it.

His answer: Knowledge from a former life. But no attachment to this, do your duty and you will have more % --------- and the highest teaching: Never ask money for your work, you will lose all your energetic power.

Edited January 21, 2011 by lungmi

[Brucenkhamen]

Next step in my explanations: I worked 10 years in Wat Umong Chiangmai with handicapped people. I met an old white Chinese monk, one of the Founders of Wat Po Massage.

He gave me instructions about energetic healing (later I learnt it was Tuina Massage from China). He told me, you already have 40 % of the potential for healing with energy (lom pran in Thai). I asked him, why? I never studied it, I never learnt it.

His answer: Knowledge from a former life. But no attachment to this, do your duty and you will have more % --------- and the highest teaching: Never ask money for your work, you will lose all your energetic power.

So because an old white Chinese monk told you so then it must be true?

[lungmi]

Next step in my explanations: I worked 10 years in Wat Umong Chiangmai with handicapped people. I met an old white Chinese monk, one of the Founders of Wat Po Massage.

He gave me instructions about energetic healing (later I learnt it was Tuina Massage from China). He told me, you already have 40 % of the potential for healing with energy (lom pran in Thai). I asked him, why? I never studied it, I never learnt it.

His answer: Knowledge from a former life. But no attachment to this, do your duty and you will have more % --------- and the highest teaching: Never ask money for your work, you will lose all your energetic power.

So because an old white Chinese monk told you so then it must be true?

You read my post narrow minded. He was one of the founders of Wat Po traditional massage. Google what is Wat Po now.

His Teaching is true by my experiences.

He suppported me to be what I'm now.

You can check me out. If you had a stroke,,,., or other paralysis or problems with muscles, nerfs, bones, your are welcome. No irony, phut chin chin.

I wait you.

[lungmi]

To FabianFred.

I came back today from my visa run in Mae Sai with my wife and our daughter (Dhammakaya sect). In Taton my wife looks for Guan Im, Our daughter took photos with the fat Chinese Buddha and me (we are fat and have the same smile). We went on our our trip (sorry, we forget you but we will come back.) to Chiang Dao, the Wat in the Mountains. Dr Martin Seeger married there with Dammayuth Monks. A famous black Buddha statue outside. Your can go where you want, his eyes follows you.

My Zen backgound followed me, I made a big wai to this impressionating Buddha and went a little bit outside of his eyes .... to piss.

(Law of nature after 5 hours driving a car). When I came back the smile of this Buddha didn't change)

Now I ask you. The Black Buddha Statue smiled to me, because I smiled first, and he gaves me the allowance to piss. Or He smiled to me because I followed the Dhamma to go piss without asking him? What is real truth? I'm confused,

I'm troubled , but I hope the Buddhist friends of this Forum can give me an answer.

Edited January 23, 2011 by lungmi

[healthcaretaker]

My teacher Luang Por Jaran says that mara, the evil one, is often trying to fool us and get us to stop meditation, even make us think we have attained the goal.

If we see or hear things we must note 'knowing' or 'seeing'...then if it is real it will stay but if false it will go. We mustn't get lost in the movie and forget to note.

So, is Mara supernatural? You indicate he still exists. Does that mean he is more powerful than Buddha, since Buddha was just a man and no longer exists?

Of course the evil(if you believe in it) is more powerful than Buddha. It's even more powerful than god since the moment adam ate that apple.

There is NO such things as power or supernatural power in Buddha.

[healthcaretaker]

Meditators often do see visions of their past lives or other realms.

I can't say I've ever come across any who claim to, except perhaps over excited beginners.

Even so a vision doesn't provide proof of anything, except perhaps an overactive imagination. After all if a vision were proof of anything then theists and new age types would have a monopoly on truth.

Proof, proof, proof....I'm sick of Westerners demanding proof for everything. I've said a million times that there is only personal proof. If you cannot do the work then you will get no proof....period!

Careful...your ego is showing..."I can't say I've ever come across any who claim to, except perhaps over excited beginners.".... implying that because you've not had any then no-one can.

Well said. I have been trying to say something like this and I found it !!

There are many things that a normal person cannot experience but the Buddha did. If not, I am sure he could not have been that knowledgeable.

If there are proofs to everything, scientists need not make any discoveries.

The best example I think is ACCUPUNCTURE, no proofs too. If everyone needs proof that it is really useful in order to try it, many people will have lived shorter and there shouldn't be more and more hospitals using it today.

Another good example is YOGA, practised long ago in India.

Now more and more westerners are going for accupunture, yoga and meditation.

Edited January 24, 2011 by healthcaretaker

[healthcaretaker]

Right, I consider myself as "scientific buddhist", but I made experiences outside the limited view of western epistemology. The vinaya (although I am disrobed for decades) forbids me to speak about this (superhuman, not supernatural) to lay people, the ordination preceptor is the partner.

May be you , FabianFred, know an issue for this?

The key to this Lungmi, is not revealing your experiences, but how did you judge them as real.

I just spoke to my abbot. No, problem, because it has nothing to do with special meditation experience. I have to omit secondary experiences

Your question is real.

I learnt Thai Massage in Chiang Mai (Jivaka Kumar Bhaccha lineage) the year after I disrobed.

On Mother's Day the Massage School went to a Mae Taeng Wat to practice.

An old woman with the help of her parents came crying for pain and laid down in front of me.

I cry with her, I was helpless, her pain was my pain. I asked a french physiotherapist to take my patient. He refused.

I was at the point zero. Alone together with the pain of my patient and the pain of my inability.

In this moment I took refuge to the mantra of the Father Doctor of the Massage School>

Mantra prayer to Jivaka Kumarabhacca

Om Namo Shivago Silasa Ahang Karuniko Sapasatanang Osatha Tipa-Mantang Papaso Suriya-Jantang. Gomalapato Paka-Sesi Wantami Bantito Sumethasso Arokha Sumana-Homi.

(3 times)

Piyo-Tewa Manussanang Piyo-Proma Namuttamo Piyo Nakha Supananang Pininsiang Nama-Mihang Namo Puttay Navon-Navien Nasatit-Nasatien Ehi-Mama Navien-Nawe Napai-Tang-Vien Navien-Mahaku Ehi-Mama Piyong-Mama Namo-Puttaya.

(1 time)

Na-A Na-Wa Lokha Payati Vina-Shanti.

(3 times)

Translation of this Pali prayer:

"We invite the spirit of our Founder, the Father Doctor Shivago, who comes to us though his saintly life. Please bring to us the knowledge of all nature, that this prayer will show us the true medicine of the universe. In the name of this mantra, we respect your help and pray that through our bodies you will bring wholeness and health to the body of our client.

The Goddess of healing dwells in the heavens high, while mankind stays in the world below. In the name of the Founder, may the heavens be reflected in the earth below so that this healing medicine may encircle the world.

We pray for the one whom we touch, that he will be happy and that any illness will be released from him."

/////////////////////

After the mantra (I recited it loudly or in my mind, I don't rember) a big energetic power came over me and I started the massage. I have no memory what I was doing after. There was no "I", no "self". My memory started again when the family came to help her to stand up. She stood up alone, made a big wai to me and walked away. But me, I was unable to stand up for some minutes.

/////////////////////////

Later, in a restaurant with the team, the director of the massage school told me, that I had been the "best" of the School. I got upset and kicked him down: Not me, Jivaka was the best.

What is real? The old woman stood up and had no more pain.

I believe your story and uunderstand it. It's not the Jivaka.

Due to your mantra, you achieve some level of energy that happens to be good enough to cure that woman's pain. There is a biological explanation to it.

Just like all those god-believers in the other religions who prayed and got some illness cured. Placebo effect can create healing energy in our self-healing system.

Of course this is a big subject that deserves a different thread or forum.

[Brucenkhamen]

My teacher Luang Por Jaran says that mara, the evil one, is often trying to fool us and get us to stop meditation, even make us think we have attained the goal.

If we see or hear things we must note 'knowing' or 'seeing'...then if it is real it will stay but if false it will go. We mustn't get lost in the movie and forget to note.

This is good advice, so no need to accuse people who encourage following such advice of demanding proof.

[sabaijai]

Proof, proof, proof....I'm sick of Westerners demanding proof for everything. I've said a million times that there is only personal proof. If you cannot do the work then you will get no proof....period!

I've never demanded proof of anything, I'm perfectly content with uncertainty and see no reason or benefit to present aspects of scripture that are beyond the realm of normal human experience as if it were fact.

If you are sick of it then note feeling... feeling as it arises and passes away.

Careful...your ego is showing..."I can't say I've ever come across any who claim to, except perhaps over excited beginners.".... implying that because you've not had any then no-one can.

Actually if you reread my sentence you'd see I said "I never come across anyone", so perhaps you could say "because you've never met anyone who had any then no-one can", I'm not sure how that's evidence of ego more likely evidence of not getting out enough.

Even so if I did have a vision as I'm trained in Mahasi techinique among others I'd just note the arising and passing away of mental phenomena that are impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self. Trying to attach significance to such mental phenomena is only a function of craving.

Very true. Apparitions of Mara, past lives and so on may or may not be illusory, but whatever the case they are empty of substance, permanence and satisfaction, like all phenomena.

Different teachers differ on the extent to which they emphasise or de-emphasise such things. Tan Ajahn Buddhadasa tuaght that Mara was your mind, nothing more.

[AYJAYDEE]

i dont recall therevadans saying gods dont exist. its just that they are impermanent as we are and are not the creator.

[lungmi]

Meditators often do see visions of their past lives or other realms.

I can't say I've ever come across any who claim to, except perhaps over excited beginners.

Even so a vision doesn't provide proof of anything, except perhaps an overactive imagination. After all if a vision were proof of anything then theists and new age types would have a monopoly on truth.

Proof, proof, proof....I'm sick of Westerners demanding proof for everything. I've said a million times that there is only personal proof. If you cannot do the work then you will get no proof....period!

Careful...your ego is showing..."I can't say I've ever come across any who claim to, except perhaps over excited beginners.".... implying that because you've not had any then no-one can.

Well said. I have been trying to say something like this and I found it !!

There are many things that a normal person cannot experience but the Buddha did. If not, I am sure he could not have been that knowledgeable.

If there are proofs to everything, scientists need not make any discoveries.

The best example I think is ACCUPUNCTURE, no proofs too. If everyone needs proof that it is really useful in order to try it, many people will have lived shorter and there shouldn't be more and more hospitals using it today.

Another good example is YOGA, practised long ago in India.

Now more and more westerners are going for accupunture, yoga and meditation.

No, acupuncture is scientifically proofed, but only 20 years ago.

Energetic medicine is proofed too.

I use low level laser for acupuncture (works with bio-photons), magnetic resonance field stick, tense electric stimulation on acupunture points. It works.

Or nei-dan Ch'i Gong ,Tuina. Moving the energy of the meridians in the body of a patient without touching him. No High Tec.

Old science (more than 2000 years old) and High Tec can work together.

[lungmi]

SabaiSabai

,

>Very true. Apparitions of Mara, past lives and so on may or may not be illusory, but whatever the case they are empty of substance, permanence and satisfaction, like all phenomena.

Right, when the old Wat Po master told me that my knowledge came from a "former" live he was saying what you say.

"Do your duty, accomplish the best you can do now , hard work enough, empty your mind from attachments."

[lungmi]

I don't know in which forum I can post this link about the actual situation of Buddhism in Thailand.

I follow my intuition.

http://www.icundv.co...ngFULLPAPER.pdf

http://www.thaibuddhism.net/pdf/parnwell-seeger.pdf

Edited January 26, 2011 by lungmi

[sabaijai]

Good articles, lungmi.

[khaowong1]

This a worlwide problem with meditation. You meditate to have mobile phone to Buddha, to devas, to angels and so on.

This is not bad, but without pannha (wisdom). And the problem is: There is an self desired answer --- and they believe.

Farang come to meditation centers in Thailand for the quick instruction to have the short way to awakening, to see the devas and angels.

Thai monks are not different.

Ha, Ha, Ha.. Your right Lungmi... I've traveled around to a lot of different temples and almost always, some Thai monk is asking me what do I see and who did I talk to in my meditation. Like I'm some kind of guru just because I'm a phra falang..

[lungmi]

The Teaching of the Buddha is a diamond. The history of hermeneutics, Interpretations, adaptations to fit with the reality of living human beings with different cultures, languages created multiple facets of this diamond, some facets still are clear, other a little bit polluted, but the diamond still is the diamond.

[phetaroi]

The Teaching of the Buddha is a diamond. The history of hermeneutics, Interpretations, adaptations to fit with the reality of living human beings with different cultures, languages created multiple facets of this diamond, some facets still are clear, other a little bit polluted, but the diamond still is the diamond.

I like that very much.

But now let me ask you a question to take the analogy a bit further. You say that "the teaching of the Buddha is a diamond." I emphasize the word "a". What are other diamonds?

[lungmi]

I answer with Tan Adjarn Buddhadasa from this link.

http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/pdf/TW_2.pdf

"Later Ajahn Buddhadasa came to speak about “universal sasana” or “universal religion.”

From his reading of the Koran, the Bible, the Upanishads, and other great texts, and from meeting

with followers of different religions, he came to believe that at heart all religions perform the same

basic function of saving us from selfishness and suffering."

[phetaroi]

I answer with Tan Adjarn Buddhadasa from this link.

http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/pdf/TW_2.pdf

"Later Ajahn Buddhadasa came to speak about “universal sasana” or “universal religion.”

From his reading of the Koran, the Bible, the Upanishads, and other great texts, and from meeting

with followers of different religions, he came to believe that at heart all religions perform the same

basic function of saving us from selfishness and suffering."

Very good.

[healthcaretaker]

I answer with Tan Adjarn Buddhadasa from this link.

http://www.suanmokkh...ve/pdf/TW_2.pdf

"Later Ajahn Buddhadasa came to speak about "universal sasana" or "universal religion."

From his reading of the Koran, the Bible, the Upanishads, and other great texts, and from meeting

with followers of different religions, he came to believe that at heart all religions perform the same

basic function of saving us from selfishness and suffering."

Difference is in different ways. Buddhism did it in a reasonable and logica way, unlike others.

[sabaijai]

Buddadhasa's point is that all world religions hold certain principles in common, eg the Golden Rule/Do Good, Receive Good.

In my opinion the attempt to define Buddhism as perfectly logical and reasonable is rather futile except as a recruiting exercise. In the end anyone trained in academic philosophy will find such an approach lacking. One can find many logical gaps in the Tipitaka, and even in the commentaries of such highly academic Buddhists a PA Payuttho.

Buddhism is arguably comparatively more logical than monotheism, but the system still contains elements of mysticism and articles of faith that can only be confirmed via attainment.