Six dead, U.S. Congresswoman Giffords among at least 12 injured in Az. shooting

[Jingthing]

Jingthing>> Is it your position that unless someone can 100% prove that the guy wasn't in any way connected, even be it via a distant relative, to the Tea Party movement, then it is their fault, they are to blame and that is that?

You have a very odd concept on how proving things should go about. You don't start with a premises and then try to find evidence to prove it. You gather all evidence and then draw the logical conclusion from all findings.

In the political context of what happened, a political assassination, the tea party political connection is naturally going to be considered, and there is nothing wrong with doing so.

Let's break this down.

The last election in her right wing district.

She was the center right democrat running against an extreme right wing tea party candidate who had the support of tea party leader Palin who had her on her crosshairs target list.

She was in Arizona, a place with lots of controversy over their immigration law which many see as racist.

She was for Obamacare, which extreme right wingers and tea partyers generally view as a left wing socialist position.

The previous death threats against her and the attacks were from the RIGHT. Indeed, her parents when asked if she had any enemies replied all of the tea party, and they were telling the truth.

Thus, it was normal, natural, reasonable, and predictable for commentators of all kinds to examine the potential role of the tea party and/or other right wing organizations when such a politician is shot as a primary target.

Anyone familiar with the basics of American politics would understand that instantly.

For another example, say this happened in San Francisco, and a center left republican (if any exist) managed to get elected there in a nasty campaign against an extreme left democrat. Let's say this center left San Francisco republican had received death threats from left wingers, and also her office had already been attacked by left wingers. In such a scenario, if that person was shot, the media would immediately examine the potential role of the left wing in the crime.

Same difference.

You just need to look at the context.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Yes, so please, if you are able, explain why Paul Krugman, MSNBC's Olbermann, and Senator Dick Durbin, immediately embraced the concept that the Republicans were responsible for the acts of this psychotic?

I think you just radically simplified their statements. However, I won't explain for them as that isn't my position, and it wouldn't be my role to explain for them if they did exactly that.

[Jingthing]

Personally, I have yet to meet a left winger who believes in bringing back the gold standard (one of the clearly stated very right wing positions from the shooter's youtubes).

I have not seen any of his videos where he clearly stated ANYTHING. You are really stretching as he does not mention the "gold standard" anywhere that I have seen - just some gobbledygook about "new currency". See what he actually has to say here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/0/7uRjwPWaxiY

This video was posted on page 1 of this thread. There is political content on the second part of the video. At 3:34 there is clear mention of opposition to currency not back by gold, so that is clearly pro gold standard, a right wing position held by some tea party leaders such as Rand Paul. The statement following that he won't trust in God clearly refers to the previous sentence, as in USA money says In God We Trust, but he is clearly saying he trusts only gold for this money.

There is other political content as well, in the manner of tea party fetishization of the constitution (he declares US laws are "treasonous" based on his radical interpretation of the constitution, that's very tea party and similar to their typical rhetoric about Obamacare). That doesn't mean he is in the tea party which it is clear he is not, that means there are markers in his rhetoric that have a tea party feel to them. In the video, he also clearly references himself as a political terrorist. So insane or not, added to the signed statement that the Giffords was his target, he had self awareness as someone plotting to commit political terror.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jingthing

[venturalaw]

Yes, so please, if you are able, explain why Paul Krugman, MSNBC's Olbermann, and Senator Dick Durbin, immediately embraced the concept that the Republicans were responsible for the acts of this psychotic?

I think you just radically simplified their statements. However, I won't explain for them as that isn't my position, and it wouldn't be my role to explain for them if they did exactly that.

Here are the statements by Krugman following the shooting:

"We don’t have proof yet that this was political, but the odds are that it was. She’s been the target of violence before. And for those wondering why a Blue Dog Democrat, the kind Republicans might be able to work with, might be a target, the answer is that she’s a Democrat who survived what was otherwise a GOP sweep in Arizona, precisely because the Republicans nominated a Tea Party activist."

"You know that Republicans will yell about the evils of partisanship whenever anyone tries to make a connection between the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc. and the violence I fear we’re going to see in the months and years ahead. But violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate. And it’s long past time for the GOP’s leaders to take a stand against the hate-mongers."

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/paul-krugman-comments-shooting-blame-republicans-hate-mongering

These statements were made by Krugman within hours of the shooting. Sure sounds like he is blaming the Republicans to me. You still believe that I am 'radically' simplifying what he said?

[Jingthing]

I think he jumped the gun and one of my recent posts explained very well why political pundits might do so. I am sure if you talked to him right now, now that more information has come out, that his comments would be more nuanced.

[TAWP]

This video was posted on page 1 of this thread. There is political content on the second part of the video. At 2:34 there is clear mention of opposition to currency not back by gold, so that is clearly pro gold standard, a right wing position held by some tea party leaders such as Rand Paul.

You are disgusting. How about you list everybody that is pro a Gold-standard instead of picking one person and pretending there is some link. People from many diverse political camps have at times supported a gold standard. You trying to push this onto some link to the Tea Party movement (this isn't even one of their stances!) is typical of you.

What is next, declaring that vegetarians clearly are odd since Hitler was one?

[Ulysses G.]

That doesn't mean he is in the tea party which it is clear he is not, that means there are markers in his rhetoric that have a tea party feel to them.

Krugman is not the only one who jumped the gun. A "Tea Party feel"? :lol:

Edited January 11, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Starlifter]

I still remember what my fourth grade school teacher use to say after we kids (yes I was guilty at times) would argue with each other; "Tit for tat, tit for tat you kill my dog I'll kill your cat". It was an effort to show us kids how silly our argument was. Looks like several of us still like to verbally fight..did so - did not, did so - did not, did so - did not...and have a competitive attitude of always getting the last word in, did - so, did-not, did so - did - not. Being competitive we don't like to loose or perceive to loose an argument/discussion. You know I'm right...are not, are too - are - not, are too - are not.

Thoughts and prayers to all affected by this tragedy

[Jingthing]

Tawp, I clearly said some tea party leaders are pro gold standard such as Rand Paul. Not all tea partiers. The tea party is still a right wing grab bag and doesn't even have an officially accepted list of platform positions! However, in modern times being pro gold standard is indeed a right wing position, and usually a radical right wing one. The shooter is a public figure now, on trial for political violence, so you would be very naive indeed to think that his public political statements won't be examined.

Also note, the gold standard reference is at 3:34 not 2:34.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

That doesn't mean he is in the tea party which it is clear he is not, that means there are markers in his rhetoric that have a tea party feel to them.

Krugman is not the only one who jumped the gun. A "Tea Party feel"? :lol:

Yes, a tea party feel, tone, flavor, as you like. If you carefully read the text in that video, I think it would be intellectually dishonest not to see that.

[Ulysses G.]

One can read just about anything one wants into that crazy rant. That is being intellectually honest.

[Jingthing]

One can read just about anything one wants into that crazy rant. That is being intellectually honest.

Fine. UG. The text is all there for anyone to judge. We shall agree to disagree on this one, OK?

[RKASA]

It is personnel with him - in 2007 he went to a meeting like this one and submitted a ? in writing which they selected for her to answer. This is why he had thank you notes from her in his house. The ? "What is government if words have no meaning?" why they would select that is another ? in itself - but she never really answered it (how could she) and he has been stewing about it and HER for years. As has been witnessed and reported by his old friends. This is what put him on the anti government ledge not the Tea party.

The chance crossing of the path of a nut case has happened again. Now I hand this back to the FUD and spin masters that are now enjoying what they hope is Obama's version of Oklahoma City. Truly sick opportunists at work.

[Jingthing]

It is personnel with him - in 2007 he went to a meeting like this one and submitted a ? in writing which they selected for her to answer. This is why he had thank you notes from her in his house. The ? "What is government if words have no meaning?" why they would select that is another ? in itself - but she never really answered it (how could she) and he has been stewing about it and HER for years. As has been witnessed and reported by his old friends. This is what put him on the anti government ledge not the Tea party.

The chance crossing of the path of a nut case has happened again. Now I hand this back to the FUD and spin masters that are now enjoying what they hope is Obama's version of Oklahoma City. Truly sick opportunists at work.

Yes, he shows a distinct anti-government leaning (as does the tea party) indeed and again as I have already detailed ad nauseum, in the context of recent politics in the shot congresswoman's district, it was quite normal to at first suspect a tea party connection in the violence. It is quite clear now he is not in the tea party and may not even support it or have an opinion about it, but that doesn't mean there wasn't some political aspect to the chain of mental events that led him to that dark day.

BTW, all politicians are opportunists, of all stripes, and yes politicians of all stripes will indeed exploit tragic events when and if they can. The really classic example of that is how GW Bush miked 9-11.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jingthing

[TAWP]

Tawp, I clearly said some tea party leaders are pro gold standard such as Rand Paul. Not all tea partiers. The tea party is still a right wing grab bag and doesn't even have an officially accepted list of platform positions! However, in modern times being pro gold standard is indeed a right wing position, and usually a radical right wing one. The shooter is a public figure now, on trial for political violence, so you would be very naive indeed to think that his public political statements won't be examined.

You still don't get it. It doesn't matter you try to backtrack to - you are still wrong.

First of all, Rand isn't a leader of any kind. Is he even a part of the movement? Well, he benefited from the it since overall the movement is anti-Washington, but he isn't speaking for it nor a 'member' of it more than any normal person sympathizing with the overall motto of what is wrong in Washington.

Gold standard is NOT a Tea Party movement position, it is a American Libertarian one. And to be honest, I have not heard Rand speak on the subject much - it is one of his fathers main topics. They are not clones.

And the movement have a short list of overall accepted positions. You should already know this, I showed you them here twice already since you were confused before as to what the positions on issues was and was posting lies.

And if you think being pro gold standard is a ring wing issue, then perhaps you need to read up on the subject. What is it you even mean with right wing? You seem confused. Do you mean social authoritarian, morally conservative, Objectivists, Libertarian, or some impossible combination?

[TAWP]

It is quite clear now he is not in the tea party and may not even support it or have an opinion about it, but that doesn't mean there wasn't some political aspect to the chain of mental events that led him to that dark day.

He is not in the movement, he might not support it, he might not share the overall opinions as it...but somehow, the movement still bears the blame for it? Is that your position?

Using that logic I think it is safe to say that we now can blame Jingthing for the murders. Accusations clearly doesn't have to make sense.

[Jingthing]

Rand Paul tea party leader --

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1990183,00.html

Rand Paul gold standard --

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/05/25/is-rand-paul-crazier-than-anyone-else-in-d-c.html

And it’s true, Paul has plenty of beliefs that I regard as wacky, such as his naive, now withdrawn, assumption that markets would have obviated the need for certain provisions in the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Or his desire to return America to the gold standard.

Favoring the gold standard in modern times IS a right wing position, but that doesn't mean all or most right wingers support it. Mostly extremists on the wacky fringe, and yes, libertarians, but that part of their position is part of their right wing side as opposed to their left wing social liberality. You can post 1000 pages of libertarian literature here but you are not going to convince objective people that support for the gold standard in modern times is not associated with the right wing, and is an unheard of position from the left wing.

The shooter by associating himself to a well known right wing fringe issue like the gold standard (and other positions as well) indeed did associate himself with right wing politics.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

It is quite clear now he is not in the tea party and may not even support it or have an opinion about it, but that doesn't mean there wasn't some political aspect to the chain of mental events that led him to that dark day.

He is not in the movement, he might not support it, he might not share the overall opinions as it...but somehow, the movement still bears the blame for it? Is that your position?

Using that logic I think it is safe to say that we now can blame Jingthing for the murders. Accusations clearly doesn't have to make sense.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I have not said the tea party is to blame for the shooter's actions. I have clearly explained what I do mean; I suggest you read it before making further comments.

This is getting too repetitive now as we are going over the same material multiple times, so I'll take a break from this topic, at least for now ...

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jingthing

[TAWP]

Rand Paul tea party leader --

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1990183,00.html

My God, the link didn't even state that nor has he ever claimed to be one. Isn't posting lies against forum rules?

Rand Paul gold standard --

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/05/25/is-rand-paul-crazier-than-anyone-else-in-d-c.html

And it’s true, Paul has plenty of beliefs that I regard as wacky, such as his naive, now withdrawn, assumption that markets would have obviated the need for certain provisions in the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Or his desire to return America to the gold standard.

Favoring the gold standard in modern times IS a right wing position, but that doesn't mean all or most right wingers supports it. Mostly extremists on the wacky fringe, and yes, libertarians, but that part of their position is part of their right wing side as opposed to their left wing social liberality.

The shooter by associating himself to a well known right wing fringe issue like the gold standard (and other positions as well) indeed did associate himself with right wing politics.

You not for real. You lack the basic insight into politics but argue like you had all the answers and we have to disprove any fabulations you have or per default you are correct.

Gold standard isn't ring wing, it is anti-authoritarian.

The shooter has been labeled as being left wing by former class-mates; but you ignore that. Because it doesn't fit into your agenda.

If anything, he is a nutcase. He is grasping in many directions for reason to lash out at the power. For reasons only he knows. You surely don't. You only see what you have already decided that you will see.

[TAWP]

It is quite clear now he is not in the tea party and may not even support it or have an opinion about it, but that doesn't mean there wasn't some political aspect to the chain of mental events that led him to that dark day.

He is not in the movement, he might not support it, he might not share the overall opinions as it...but somehow, the movement still bears the blame for it? Is that your position?

Using that logic I think it is safe to say that we now can blame Jingthing for the murders. Accusations clearly doesn't have to make sense.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I have not said the tea party is to blame for the shooter's actions. I have clearly explained what I do mean; I suggest you read it before making further comments.

This is getting too repetitive now as we are going over the same material multiple times, so I'll take a break from this topic, at least for now ...

Really? Is or is this not a direct quote from your post?

It is quite clear now he is not in the tea party and may not even support it or have an opinion about it, but that doesn't mean there wasn't some political aspect to the chain of mental events that led him to that dark day.

Please, do explain to me like I am 4 year old then.

[cdnvic]

I have not said the tea party is to blame for the shooter's actions

Then it's off topic so stop bringing it up.

[chuckd]

A psychiatrist was interviewed on CNN this morning and seemed to sum up the shooter's mindset.

He said..."Loughner is neither right nor left. He is simply incoherent."

Since all the blame is being thrown around, why not blame Hollywood and video games for the violent action taken by Loughner. It has just as much basis in fact as blaming Limbaugh, Palin or the Tea Party.

NO! I don't have a link to the comment but it was on Wolf Blitzer's show.

[frodo]

Sad to say, there are those who appear to be thrilled that a 9-year old girl was shot down in cold blood, while the killer receives praise for his actions.

"Thank God for the violent shooter, one of your soldier heroes in Tucson – Westboro Baptist church will picket their funerals." The church founder, Fred Phelps.

Religious extremists banned from picketing Arizona shooting funeral

Shocked and speechless.

[geriatrickid]

Sad to say, there are those who appear to be thrilled that a 9-year old girl was shot down in cold blood, while the killer receives praise for his actions.

"Thank God for the violent shooter, one of your soldier heroes in Tucson – Westboro Baptist church will picket their funerals." The church founder, Fred Phelps.

Religious extremists banned from picketing Arizona shooting funeral

Shocked and speechless.

Westboro actually serves to bring people together. In the communities where the Phelps family show up to yell abuse at the families of mourners, thousands of citizens of all political affiliations are turning out to line the streets to shield grieving vulnnerable people from seeing the disrespectful, cruel and sadistic Phelps family. There's a group called Operation Patriot that makes sure to be around military funerals to block the sight of the Phelps family.

When the Phelps cult arrives in Tucson, you can be assured that the citizenery will be on hand to show solidarity with the families of the deceased and to protect them from these evil depraved misfits.

[RKASA]

Rock music is the cause of drug use, Matelica is to blame for Columbine, movies for the attack on Reagen. Face it - Mental illness caused the attack on her - and NOTHING more.

Don't worry about Fred Phelps - Many states have taken steps to deal with them and so has AZ. He will use any cause to rally his cult and collect his offerings which he enriches himself with. He is a opportunist tapping into peoples fears for the profit and I don't mean the religious type.

[chuckd]

I see one of our elected Representatives has decided to raise campaign funds on the back of the Tucson killings. He is NOT a Tea Party member but is actually from the left side of the aisle.

______________________________________________________

Sanders Fundraises Off Arizona Murders

3:20 PM, JAN 11, 2011 • BY STEPHEN F. HAYES

There has been no shortage of individuals and institutions that have sought to capitalize on the shootings in Tucson. Add Vermont senator Bernie Sanders to that list.

This afternoon Sanders sent out a fundraising appeal, seeking to raise money to fight Republicans and other “right-wing reactionaries” responsible for the climate that led to the shooting.

He writes:

"Given the recent tragedy in Arizona, as well as the start of the new Congress, I wanted to take this opportunity to share a few words with political friends in Vermont and throughout the country. I also want to thank the very many supporters who have begun contributing online to my 2012 reelection campaign at www.bernie.org. There is no question but that the Republican Party, big money corporate interests and right-wing organizations will vigorously oppose me. Your financial support now and in the future is much appreciated."

Read more here: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/sanders-fundraises-arizona-murders_533487.html

______________________________________________________

Edited January 12, 2011 by chuckd

[Pakboong]

Rand Paul tea party leader --

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1990183,00.html

Rand Paul gold standard --

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/05/25/is-rand-paul-crazier-than-anyone-else-in-d-c.html

And it’s true, Paul has plenty of beliefs that I regard as wacky, such as his naive, now withdrawn, assumption that markets would have obviated the need for certain provisions in the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Or his desire to return America to the gold standard.

Favoring the gold standard in modern times IS a right wing position, but that doesn't mean all or most right wingers support it. Mostly extremists on the wacky fringe, and yes, libertarians, but that part of their position is part of their right wing side as opposed to their left wing social liberality. You can post 1000 pages of libertarian literature here but you are not going to convince objective people that support for the gold standard in modern times is not associated with the right wing, and is an unheard of position from the left wing.

The shooter by associating himself to a well known right wing fringe issue like the gold standard (and other positions as well) indeed did associate himself with right wing politics.

There is merit to some of Jing's position. The right wing fringe is often anti-central bank as more of an anti-Jewish matter than one of pro-gold.

Doesn't fit that well here because both the Congresswoman and the shooter were members of the same reform synagogue.

The Loughners and the Giffords were members of the same Congregation Chaverim. On the Congregation Chaverim website we learn that this Reform synagogue that was founded in 1973 has 140 families. That's a very small group. The Rabbi, Stephanie Aaron surely knows every single family member of her congregation on a first name basis! That includes 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner.

[geriatrickid]

There is merit to some of Jing's position. The right wing fringe is often anti-central bank as more of an anti-Jewish matter than one of pro-gold.

Doesn't fit that well here because both the Congresswoman and the shooter were members of the same reform synagogue.

The Loughners and the Giffords were members of the same Congregation Chaverim. On the Congregation Chaverim website we learn that this Reform synagogue that was founded in 1973 has 140 families. That's a very small group. The Rabbi, Stephanie Aaron surely knows every single family member of her congregation on a first name basis! That includes 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner.

The father is not jewish. The mother is alleged to be jewish by one of the accused gunman's friends. This comes from the statement nade by a former friend of the accused that states that Jared Lee used Mein Kampf as a way to upset his mother. This is hearsay and is uncorroborated. There is no record of the family being a member of any jewish synagogue. Please cite your source and hopefully it is legitimate. According to the local jewish community news source;

Amy Loughner’s maiden name is Totman, according to Arizona public records, and she married Randy Loughner in 1986. Totman is a common old English name and JTA could not uncover any record of Jewish affiliation for the family. Jewish Tucsonians said they were unaware of the family.

I really do not know why religion is brought into this discussion now. The accused certainly was not a member of any Church or Synagogue, Mosque or Temple. He made no references to religion.

This really is descending into the most despicable of depths. What's next, a discussion of the accused's sexual preferences or whether he preferred single or double ply toilet tissue?

[Pakboong]

There is merit to some of Jing's position. The right wing fringe is often anti-central bank as more of an anti-Jewish matter than one of pro-gold.

Doesn't fit that well here because both the Congresswoman and the shooter were members of the same reform synagogue.

The Loughners and the Giffords were members of the same Congregation Chaverim. On the Congregation Chaverim website we learn that this Reform synagogue that was founded in 1973 has 140 families. That's a very small group. The Rabbi, Stephanie Aaron surely knows every single family member of her congregation on a first name basis! That includes 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner.

The father is not jewish. The mother is alleged to be jewish by one of the accused gunman's friends. This comes from the statement nade by a former friend of the accused that states that Jared Lee used Mein Kampf as a way to upset his mother. This is hearsay and is uncorroborated. There is no record of the family being a member of any jewish synagogue. Please cite your source and hopefully it is legitimate. According to the local jewish community news source;

Amy Loughner’s maiden name is Totman, according to Arizona public records, and she married Randy Loughner in 1986. Totman is a common old English name and JTA could not uncover any record of Jewish affiliation for the family. Jewish Tucsonians said they were unaware of the family.

I really do not know why religion is brought into this discussion now. The accused certainly was not a member of any Church or Synagogue, Mosque or Temple. He made no references to religion.

This really is descending into the most despicable of depths. What's next, a discussion of the accused's sexual preferences or whether he preferred single or double ply toilet tissue?

Fox News made an Anti Semitic connection on Greta Wire. Rupert Murdock's ownership of Fox News makes it an issue with the Right Wing Fringe that Jingathing refered to in a different context. Anything such as this reported as anti-semetic sets the Right Wing Fringe into motion. That is how it all got started as a matter of religion.

http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/latest-on-shooting-of-congresswoman-giffords-motivation-anti-semitic-and-she-was-the-target/

[geriatrickid]

Fox News made an Anti Semitic connection on Greta Wire. Rupert Murdock's ownership of Fox News makes it an issue with the Right Wing Fringe that Jingathing refered to in a different context. Anything such as this reported as anti-semetic sets the Right Wing Fringe into motion. That is how it all got started as a matter of religion.

http://gretawire.blo...was-the-target/

First off, its Fox News (USA). Other Fox news outlets are quite different from the local U.S. operation. Rupert Murdoch gives editorial leeway to the U.S. operations. This is in part due to an over abundance of care to avoid being called a "foreign" meddler in U.S. politics. The Congresswoman's religious affiliations may or may not be related to the shooting. People are quick and loose when they post on blogs. A blog posting is not necessarily a substantiated factual statement. My personal view is that she was an easy target and one that was seen as closely linked to President Obama. She voted against Nancy Pelosi's continued leadership role, but supported the healthcare initiative. I doubt that the Chief Federal Judge was an intended target as he was passing by after attending mass to say hello to the Congresswoman.

Although some people may make references to religion, it really is not germane at this time. People are scrambling for cover to avoid dealing with the key issue of society's descent into aggressive, rude personal attacks manifested through wild allegations and smears against public servants. If one has any semblance of civility, one will refrain from diving into the gutter with such references. Politicians are human beings too and a great many enter public service because they are trying to make a positive difference in their communities.