Overstay Fine Limits?

[WeeGB]

Hi, I've just heard on the village grapevine that there is a chap in a nearby village who wants to go back home, to Korea, I believe. Apparently he has been in Thailand 20 years or so, without a visa !! From what I understand he has been told by his Embassy that once he renews his passport (which has expired long ago), that he will be OK to fly home. From the little I know he will be liable to a massive fine, and possibly jail time. Can you please tell me the maximum fine for overstaying, and the possibility of his being jailed? Also will his wife (who is Thai) be in trouble for not reporting his overstay, as it has been so long.

Thanks for your help.

[Lite Beer]

The maximum fine is 20,000 Baht.

He may face a few other problems though.

[WeeGB]

The maximum fine is 20,000 Baht.

He may face a few other problems though.

Can you elucidate please? My wife is interested as it seems this Korean chap is married to a distant relation of hers. Hope you don't mind if I get back to this tomorrow, i've only a few baht left on my internet connection, thanks again.

[Soutpeel]

Wasnt there something reported a fews weeks ago, anyone over a certain number of days overstay in Thailand was gong to get trip to the monkey house ?

[lopburi3]

It has not happened as long as fine and exit can be paid. There is always the chance of it however and short stays to check background are sometimes made.

[Badbanker]

The problem he is going to have is showing when he entered.

If he has his origin passport with a TM card and stamp and can show where and when he came to Thailand he is going to be sort of OK. If not, he will be charged with illegal entry and as he has been in Thailand for such a log time ILLEGALLY when he goes before court he could be sentenced to a jail term.

He is going to need a legal representative or an influential person. Problem often is going back into the Immigration Departments microfiche of entries and seeing if he really did come in at that time.

He should start at 8 am at immigration and be humble and friendly and not be in the least combative and have a ticket out of Thailand that evening.

This is what is classified by immigration as a complex overstay!

BB

PS No this sort of thing cannot be cleared at the airport!

[Tod Daniels]

I wholeheartedly agree with "Badbanker", this is NOT the sort of overstay you can blithely show up at the airport a little before your departure and 'sort out' with the 20K baht fine, the small red overstay stamp and possibly a firm talkin' to by the officers. This is a COMPLEX overstay compounded by the fact he hasn't even kept a valid passport nor in the 20 odd year overstay bothered to sort this out before now.

He WILL need the original passport's entrance stamp as the likelihood of Immigrations going to the trouble of checking their microfiche of entrances into the kingdom for 20 years back is about as likely as pigs flyin' outta my arse.

It will take HOURS at immigrations if he's not combative and possibly the entire day if he cops even the slightest attitude. HE knowingly broke the law, not by a slight oversight, or an "I forgot", but deliberately for oh-so many years that it’s not even funny. Any attitude that he is somehow 'owed' something because he has a thai spouse, half thai kids, a house, contributed some way to thai economy, blah-blah-blah isn't gonna play at all. It is my experience that Immigrations officers tend to take a “been there, done that, heard that crap before” attitude with this type of ‘excuse’.

First;

Tell him to go get a new passport

Second;

Tell him to purchase a ticket OUT of thailand

Third;

Tell him to show up bright 'n early one morning at Thai Immigrations at CHANGWATTANA, with: the original passport, (the departure card if he still has it), the new passport, the confirmed ticket outta the kingdom, 20K baht for the overstay fine, possibly 1900 baht for the emergency 7 day visa (although if he sorts out the overstay on the exact day he's supposed to fly out, sometimes they don't make you get this).

IF this guy can't speak enough thai to carry on a conversation about why he overstayed so long, <deleted> was he thinking by doin' this, and to listen to the mandatory lecture (which I'm quite sure will come with this long of overstay), he better take a well spoken thai with him.

Who even knows what visa rules, restrictions etc regarding Korean nationals were in effect 20 odd years ago when he entered the kingdom? I sincerely doubt even the Immigration staff knows without having to check old records.

While I don't know if he'll need legal representation out at Changwattana, he'll most definitely need someone who knows their way around the system out there. Perhaps his embassy in Bangkok can advise him on the best course of action.

As far as his wife getting into trouble for not reporting his overstay, I say that's highly unlikely. I'm sure where ever they've lived in nakhon nowhere thailand, the village headman and in all likelihood the entire village has known about this 'issue' for years and years. You can't keep secrets of this magnitude in small villages EVER!!!

Currently there is no reward offered by Immigrations for turning in overstayers (or believe me I'd be a billionaire here!). Conversely, there is no penalty for a normal run-o-the-mill-thai not turning an overstayer in either. Although FWIW: the person in question would probably do better NOT takin' his thai wife with him to Immigrations, as she'll most definitely get a stern talkin' to from the 'powers that be' out there.

The O/P's story is quite the sticky wicket. The korean guy would do well to tread very lightly sorting this out. Perhaps in retrospect, Badbanker's idea of legal representation isn't too far off the mark. Showing up with someone who knows immigration law regarding other S/E Asian nationals can't hurt in the least.

I believe the real key to sortin’ this issue out as easy as it possibly can be is having the old passport with the original arrival stamp (even though it's 20 years old). At least it is valid PROOF of when he entered; versus just showing up with nothing and being charged with illegal entry and residence for 20 years, which is FAR more serious than an overstay.

[Soutpeel]

I suppose the one thing that hasnt been considered here is which Korea is he from ?, we are assuming its the South....

[TAWP]

A note: friend of my gf recently got our of 1 year jail-sentence for illegal entry into Thailand. She lack any passport or papers of any kind, is born in Laos and entered the country as part of a sale by her parents to a wealthy Thai gentleman when she was 12 years old. She 2 years later managed to run away from him but continued to live here with found friends for the past 15 years.

[WeeGB]

Thanks to all for advice and replies, I'll get my wife to pass the word along. It is my understanding this chap is from South Korea, so hopefully he wil be able to sort out his passport and flight out OK. As for him being humble, I met him once about ten years ago, and I don't think it's very likely he'll go to immigration with his head down.......but you reap what you sow in this life.

According to the village grapevine, which is seriously hot at the moment, he thinks all he has to do is show up at the airport, buy a ticket and go home. Even with my limited knowledge of the immigration service, i kind of think he's in for a rude awakening.

Thanks again, sorry for the delay in replying, my internet card ran out last night, and our main village isn't a place to visit in hours of darkness, the teenagers there seem to do as they like.

[Soutpeel]

Thanks to all for advice and replies, I'll get my wife to pass the word along. It is my understanding this chap is from South Korea, so hopefully he wil be able to sort out his passport and flight out OK. As for him being humble, I met him once about ten years ago, and I don't think it's very likely he'll go to immigration with his head down.......but you reap what you sow in this life.

According to the village grapevine, which is seriously hot at the moment, he thinks all he has to do is show up at the airport, buy a ticket and go home. Even with my limited knowledge of the immigration service, i kind of think he's in for a rude awakening.

Thanks again, sorry for the delay in replying, my internet card ran out last night, and our main village isn't a place to visit in hours of darkness, the teenagers there seem to do as they like.

Keep us in the loop how it turns out, but suspect they gentleman concerned maybe getting a holiday coutesy of Thailands finest....

[mussen]

Don't know what they're like with record keeping at the Korean Embassy and passport renewals there etc, but if he can convince the Embassy he came in a few weeks ago (at a small land crossing) and his passport/ticket-out were stolen, then get a renewal passport and explain the same to Thai immigration, would he be able to slip out of the country? I'm not suggesting to do this, just asking?

[TAWP]

Don't know what they're like with record keeping at the Korean Embassy and passport renewals there etc, but if he can convince the Embassy he came in a few weeks ago (at a small land crossing) and his passport/ticket-out were stolen, then get a renewal passport and explain the same to Thai immigration, would he be able to slip out of the country? I'm not suggesting to do this, just asking?

All passports are scanned and entries added to the entry-database. Notice the machine-readable text at the bottom of your passports main page?

[Tod Daniels]

All passports are scanned and entries added to the entry-database. Notice the machine-readable text at the bottom of your passports main page?

BUT the question which begs to be asked IS;

Did they have that technology 22+ years ago?

Hmmm, lemme think, one more second, (and while I could be wrong) I highly doubt they had MICR numbers on passports for South Korea way back in 1988-89 or when ever he actually entered the glorious "Land 'O Thais". (I could be wrong after googling MICR readers, but I don't think so).

I still say, get a new passport; take the OLD one, the new one, and a pile 'o money for fines out to thai immigrations at Changwattana. WITH a ticket outta the country he can sort this out easier than any b/s lie he makes up on the spot. Especially if he doesn’t show up and at least act like he’s there; “hat in hand”. He shows up with an attitude or like he's entitled to something and it won't fly, that is almost 100% guaranteed.

I don't believe for a second, he's gonna be able to arrive at Suvarnabhumi with a ticket for South Korea and skate out with the normal minute talkin' to and a fine; AFTER a 20+ year overstay! This is a VERY serious <deleted> up on his part!

This guy seems to not have the slightest clue about just how serious his problem is or how hard it can be made for him by thai immigrations should they choose the hard way rather than the easy way.

AS AN ASIDE: I recently found out Changwattana has records of entries and departures for easily the last 23+ years from EVERY border crossing; should they care to peruse the microfiche files and find 'em for you.

Good luck to him, let us know how it pans out, will you?

Remember, knowledge is power!

P/S; to answer the topic of the O/P's post the maximum overstay fine is 500 baht a day but it caps out at 20K baht, so 40 days or 40 years overstay, the fine is technically the same. It tops out at 20,000baht!

[TAWP]

All passports are scanned and entries added to the entry-database. Notice the machine-readable text at the bottom of your passports main page?

BUT the question which begs to be asked IS;

Did they have that technology 22+ years ago?

/../

Read the reply in the context of the question:

The poster asked if he could not fake a situation of being robbed of his passport after arriving a few weeks ago.

As my answer correctly pointed out they register all border-crossings and he could not fake a situation as described.

[asiawatcher]

20 years ? He obviously knows how to keep his head down.

[fxe1200]

20 years ? He obviously knows how to keep his head down.

...besides he saved a lot on visa fees and travel expenses. Just calculate.

[Arkady]

The problem he is going to have is showing when he entered.

If he has his origin passport with a TM card and stamp and can show where and when he came to Thailand he is going to be sort of OK. If not, he will be charged with illegal entry and as he has been in Thailand for such a log time ILLEGALLY when he goes before court he could be sentenced to a jail term.

He is going to need a legal representative or an influential person. Problem often is going back into the Immigration Departments microfiche of entries and seeing if he really did come in at that time.

He should start at 8 am at immigration and be humble and friendly and not be in the least combative and have a ticket out of Thailand that evening.

This is what is classified by immigration as a complex overstay!

BB

PS No this sort of thing cannot be cleared at the airport!

This seems to be best advice here. The key is that the immigration officials at the airport would not be able to check his original entry on their computers, so they would probably have to arrest him as an illegal immigrant. I would add that it would be worth getting some one to put the case to Immigration beforehand without disclosing his details to sound them out.

The Immigration Act does provide for up to two years in prison in addition to the maximum B20k fine but in practice they seem to only jail people who can't pay the fine and/or can't pay for an air ticket out. In these cases they are not actually sentenced to prison but pay off the fine at a rate of B200 per day in prison and then get dumped in the Immigration jail until some pays their air ticket.

The householder may be guilty of not reporting his presence within 24 hours but I don't think there is a specific penalty for harbouring overstayers, as in the case of illegal immigrants. It is very important to have evidence that he entered legally in the first instance. It may be hard to convince immigration that his most recent entry was really 20 years ago and they might want to press illegal entry charges. He may need witnesses.

If he handles it right and avoids prison, he might even be allowed back. The rules about who gets blacklisted are not very clear and it seems to be totally up to the discretion of the minister based on the recommendation of the director-general of Immigration.

[TimTang]

Here's a hypothetical situation:

Suppose your passport was stolen. what would you do?

First you file a report to the police that your passport has been stolen.

Then you take the police report to your embassy and get a new passport.

Next you go to immigration with your new passport and the police report and ask for a new tourist visa similar to the one you get on entry to the country.

If there are no records of this Korean guy for the last 20 years, how would they know if he entered 20 years ago or 2 weeks ago?

If his passport was supposedly stolen there would be no record of his immigration status. His name wouldn't even be recorded in any computer system.

I remember on one of my border runs there were two guys on the bus that were overstayed for 5 and 7 years. They happily went to the overstay office paid the 20 grand and on our returned they both got a 1 month tourist visa.

I remember thinking WOW, over the years I've stayed here, I've probably paid hundreds of thousands of baht to remain here legitimately. Visa fees, legal fees, motorcycles, taxis, buses, trains, planes, hours of wasted time; if you add that all up it gets pretty expensive.

Yet these guys just plop down 20 grand and viola there clean again. This happened a couple years ago, so I don't know if it's still that easy.

Edited January 16, 2011 by TimTang

[TimTang]

...he thinks all he has to do is show up at the airport, buy a ticket and go home. Even with my limited knowledge of the immigration service, i kind of think he's in for a rude awakening...

If I were him I'd try doing a border run first, like the two guys in my previous post. It might be easier than doing it at the airport. Then he'd be able to leave the airport on a 1 month tourist visa complete with his TM6 departure card. No one would even blink and eye.

[lopburi3]

You never get a visa entered into a new passport and immigration has a record of every entry/exit and do not need a passport to see it. The passport itself is read and computer record made and the entry/exit card is a permeate record and it is also entered in computer records. The time saving comes with knowing the exact date and place of entry if prior to computer records as it may save looking in a lot of boxes.

[TimTang]

You never get a visa entered into a new passport and immigration has a record of every entry/exit and do not need a passport to see it. The passport itself is read and computer record made and the entry/exit card is a permeate record and it is also entered in computer records. The time saving comes with knowing the exact date and place of entry if prior to computer records as it may save looking in a lot of boxes.

Disregarding the Korean guy all together, what would immigration put into your new passport in the event that your passport was stolen.

A few years ago I had my visa Non-O transfered from one passport to another, because my passport had less than 6 months remaining before it expired. I've never lost or had my passport stolen so I don't have any first hand knowledge of the procedures involved.

I know the computerization of immigration has improved over the years but I'm not sure how accurate or how far back their records go. 20 years may be a little iffy.

Edited January 16, 2011 by TimTang

[TimTang]

All passports are scanned and entries added to the entry-database. Notice the machine-readable text at the bottom of your passports main page?

Canadian passports issued at the Bangkok Canadian Consulate are not machine readable. It even says at the bottom of the first page "this passport is not machine readable". I've never understood WHY!

[lopburi3]

You had a permission to stay transferred into a new passport (the time remaining on your stay) - not a visa I suspect. Only the information from the original visa would be entered - it could not be used for entry into Thailand (which is what a visa is for). A lost passport replacement would get the same type entry.

[TimTang]

You had a permission to stay transferred into a new passport (the time remaining on your stay) - not a visa I suspect. Only the information from the original visa would be entered - it could not be used for entry into Thailand (which is what a visa is for). A lost passport replacement would get the same type entry.

Yeah that seems about right. The visa transfer takes up a full page but is not really a visa. the original visa actually expired about 5 years ago, but I'm still extending that visa every year, even though it's not physically in my passport.

So if someone has their passport stolen what do they actually bring to the airport when they leave the country? I'm just curious; I hope it never happens to me.

With an extension of stay in their new passport I suspect they would have to re-issue a new TM6 as well.

Edited January 16, 2011 by TimTang

[lopburi3]

They bring there new passport. Report loss - visit Embassy for new passport or emergency travel document - visit immigration to enter details/original entry/permitted to stay in new passport - exit.

[Arkady]

Here's a hypothetical situation:

Suppose your passport was stolen. what would you do?

First you file a report to the police that your passport has been stolen.

Then you take the police report to your embassy and get a new passport.

Next you go to immigration with your new passport and the police report and ask for a new tourist visa similar to the one you get on entry to the country.

If there are no records of this Korean guy for the last 20 years, how would they know if he entered 20 years ago or 2 weeks ago?

If his passport was supposedly stolen there would be no record of his immigration status. His name wouldn't even be recorded in any computer system.

I remember on one of my border runs there were two guys on the bus that were overstayed for 5 and 7 years. They happily went to the overstay office paid the 20 grand and on our returned they both got a 1 month tourist visa.

I remember thinking WOW, over the years I've stayed here, I've probably paid hundreds of thousands of baht to remain here legitimately. Visa fees, legal fees, motorcycles, taxis, buses, trains, planes, hours of wasted time; if you add that all up it gets pretty expensive.

Yet these guys just plop down 20 grand and viola there clean again. This happened a couple years ago, so I don't know if it's still that easy.

The problem is that if you get picked by the police due to some random event like a road traffic accident, you will be hauled off to prison as an illegal immigrant and then the whole thing might cost you more than B20k. You also never know how you will be treated, even showing up at the border or airport under your own steam.

Anyway, what kind of life is it being a non-person for years on end living in a village and not being able to do anything that requires showing you passport and visa or travel out of the country and knowing you could be hauled off to jail at any moment? Sounds like being a perpetual backpacker on a budget of US$5 per day but without the travel and excitement.

[TimTang]

The problem is that if you get picked by the police due to some random event like a road traffic accident, you will be hauled off to prison as an illegal immigrant and then the whole thing might cost you more than B20k. You also never know how you will be treated, even showing up at the border or airport under your own steam.

Anyway, what kind of life is it being a non-person for years on end living in a village and not being able to do anything that requires showing you passport and visa or travel out of the country and knowing you could be hauled off to jail at any moment? Sounds like being a perpetual backpacker on a budget of US$5 per day but without the travel and excitement.

I personally would never do what these guys did just out of fear of being busted. I've always followed the rules and made sure I was legit.

I overstayed my visa by accident once and I was $hittin' bricks all the way to the border because at the time there were many reports of police stopping visa-run buses and extorting huge amounts of money from anyone who was an overstay.

[inthepink]

Here's a hypothetical situation:

Suppose your passport was stolen. what would you do?

First you file a report to the police that your passport has been stolen.

Then you take the police report to your embassy and get a new passport.

Next you go to immigration with your new passport and the police report and ask for a new tourist visa similar to the one you get on entry to the country.

If there are no records of this Korean guy for the last 20 years, how would they know if he entered 20 years ago or 2 weeks ago?

If his passport was supposedly stolen there would be no record of his immigration status. His name wouldn't even be recorded in any computer system.

I remember on one of my border runs there were two guys on the bus that were overstayed for 5 and 7 years. They happily went to the overstay office paid the 20 grand and on our returned they both got a 1 month tourist visa.

I remember thinking WOW, over the years I've stayed here, I've probably paid hundreds of thousands of baht to remain here legitimately. Visa fees, legal fees, motorcycles, taxis, buses, trains, planes, hours of wasted time; if you add that all up it gets pretty expensive.

Yet these guys just plop down 20 grand and viola there clean again. This happened a couple years ago, so I don't know if it's still that easy.

The problem is that if you get picked by the police due to some random event like a road traffic accident, you will be hauled off to prison as an illegal immigrant and then the whole thing might cost you more than B20k. You also never know how you will be treated, even showing up at the border or airport under your own steam.

Anyway, what kind of life is it being a non-person for years on end living in a village and not being able to do anything that requires showing you passport and visa or travel out of the country and knowing you could be hauled off to jail at any moment? Sounds like being a perpetual backpacker on a budget of US$5 per day but without the travel and excitement.

Although I wouldn't recommend it, it's nowhere near as bad as the picture that you are painting. Given ordinary luck there is no need to hide away in a village and certainly no need to live like a backpacker on a budget of $5 a day.