Majority Of Thais Willing To Sell Their Votes: Poll

[webfact]

Thai majority would take vote bribes: poll

BANGKOK, January 16, 2011 (AFP) - Most Thai people would be willing to accept money from election candidates to buy their votes in the politically divided kingdom, according to a poll published Sunday.

Nearly 80 per cent of the respondents admitted vote-buying took place in their communities, said the Abac poll conducted by Assumption University, whose results were published on the English-language Bangkok Post website.

Of those surveyed, 53.2 percent said they would take such electoral bribes.

Another 40.2 percent would not accept the money, while 6.6 per cent were non-committal, according to the survey of 2,604 eligible voters in 18 provinces of Thailand, where a national election is due some time this year.

Nearly 70 percent of those who said they would take the bribes were from the northeast -- the heartland of Thailand's anti-government "Red Shirts" -- while the next biggest group were those in Bangkok.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-01-16

[cshort64]

Education must be the key. So many people I run into in the Northeast can't read and write thus it does not make much difference. I am quite sure that my wife's family take their 200 to 500 baht and then ask for someone to check the box or fill in the name, as neither of them can read a newspaper. So it does not matter who you want if you have to ask the person giving you the $ or the 'village boss' to help you the vote will be cast for whomever THEY like, as there is no way to verify.

[Buchholz]

I guess this poll further vindicates my amazement in another thread...

TIT many things are done here for the most obscure reasons - many people throw money lobbying to no great effect - NOW if they could 'see' the votes - and you had evidnce that they could then that would be different

TIT...if someone wanted to "see" votes when they are still hand-marked on paper and bundled like this with rubber bands,

it wouldn't be difficult.

Are we really debating whether or not vote buying occurs in Thailand???

Amazing Thaivisa.

[Xangsamhua]

Well, if more than 50% of Thai people either don't want responsible democracy or are not ready for it, they'll have to put up with what they've got - "money politics" and croneyism, or go back to rule by the military and the old influential families.

Trouble is, the easy money they're taking to have the local godfather or his puppet elected isn't really his. He'll get it back through kickbacks, bribes and various insider schemes once he's elected, and that'll be at the expense of development and services and standards for all the punters who cast their votes, in good faith or otherwise.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[Buchholz]

Are CNN, BBC and Reuters putting this issue into their headlines...along side the news on govt moves against the red protestors clamoring for democracy?

International media source AFP is on board:

Nearly 70 percent of those who said they would take the bribes were from the northeast -- the heartland of Thailand's anti-government "Red Shirts"

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-01-16

[pipo1000]

Now that is what I call a real democracy......................having the freedom to sell your vote

[corkman]

So - let me see if I have this right:

• Thailand is deeply dvided, politically, between the disenfranchised "poor" reds in Isaan and the "weathly" Bangkok elite?
• So, the problem is money - the "wealthy" bangkok elite (lets call them yellows for simplicity) have all the money and the reds have none of it?
• Vote buying (according to the majority of respondants to this thread) is wide spread and common practice, and is almost "the norm"?
• Whoever has the most money, has the most buying power, and so therefore win?
• The "red" areas are the most likely to "sell" their votes acording to the survey?

So by this line of logic wealthy yellow's can out-buy the poor reds, and so the yellows win in Isaan, right? Wrong! So what has gone wrong? Is it that the reds arguement about the "elite" having everthing is actually BS? Is the vote buying arguement BS? Do you all really not see how pathetic and nonsensicle the whole arguement is? Its politics, which is a synonym for wholesale manipulation and scare-mogering.

Something that never ceases to amaze me is the complete lack of appreciation that the average expat has for the fact that our logic and thai logic are not the same things. our value structures, reasoning, and values are different and that is before you factor in the concept of deductive reasoning (and the lack of it in your average Thai, much less the uneducated simple minded Isaan folk). If you tell these poor cretins that "I will give you xxxTHB to vote for me, and be warned I can check if you did or not" then they will just take it on faith. It will never occur to them that a ganster (which is what most politicians are) is not exactly the most truthful person on the planet - they will apply the logic of "he has money, he is clever, he is a BIG man, accept what he says as fact". Evidence or explanation is not required.

Finally, how naive are you all? I mean, why do you vote for your leaders in your own countries? Has some <deleted> promised "if I get the job, I'll ensure that the town gets new......." school / hospital / park / road / bypass / factory / shopping centre / jobs ............... so, in return for your vote I will ensure greater prosperity....... I'm no expert of American politics for example, but did Obama promise free health care, or huge tax breaks, or something like that................

[Nisa]

Not only do I find non-sourced (or where one cannot see the actual poll questions & margin of error) polls lacking ALL credibility but also find it interesting The Nation and The Post claim two different things from the same unsourced poll.

The Nation:

61.1 per cent said they were not yet committed while 27.2 per cent supported the government and 11.7 per cent were opposed to it.

While I cannot quote The Post exactly, they stated that

61.1 per cent were in the middle and preferred to be a silent force while the 27.2 supported the gov't and 11.7 opposed it.

Being in the middle and being undecided are very different. The post seems to indicate these people are moderates or silent majority while The Nation says they are undecided.

I also find the poll mostly moot IF voters vote in secret. Voters whose vote can be bought are by definition dishonest and/or criminals. So, how can they be trusted to secretly do what the promised? The only motivation would be for those truly ignorant people whose only concern and/or understanding is getting money each election from the person willing to buy their vote.

Edit: And why would people admit they are willing to do something illegal when they appear to have given their personal information (they say these people are eligible to vote) and assuming they didn't even know (trust) the person who interviewed them. This poll doesn't even say how those contacted were contacted ... was in by phone, at stores, online or door to door?

Edited January 16, 2011 by Nisa

[ballpoint]

Well, if more than 50% of Thai people either don't want responsible democracy or are not ready for it, they'll have to put up with what they've got - "money politics" and croneyism, or go back to rule by the military and the old influential families.

The problem is that many of the people who sell their votes are the very same ones who sell their presence at various rallies, yellow and red. As mentioned on a previous post, many rural voters don't have a clue as to who they're voting for, or the party they belong to. The voting forms have the candidates names and parties written on them for the literate voters, but also have numbers and patterns of dots for the illiterate. Every election, whether it be local or national, you see many of them walking into the booths clutching a piece of paper with the number and pattern to vote for written on it. This is handed to them by the vote buyers, or village headmen so they can put their cross in the prepaid for place. It explains why no one was particularly upset when the CTP broke their pre election promise and joined with the PPP, and also why there was no immediate clamour from the rural electorates when many of the PPP joined the BJT when their party was disbanded. It was only when they were paid once again that enough protetsors were able to be brought into Bangkok in 2009, and again last year. I invite any doubters to come and sit outside our local school during the next elections and watch the voters shuffle in, hanging on to their voting directions, under the gaze of the vote buyers.

[brahmburgers]

And those people who admitted to selling their votes are the ones brave enough to admit it in a poll. The actual # is probably higher.

In a democracy challenged western country (Bosnia for example), voters might accept vote money, but then they'd go and vote for whomever they wanted - and that would be it. In contrast, if all the members of a Thai village get paid to vote a certain way, and the outcome doesn't fit, then that will result in a lot of finger pointing, acrimony, blame and threats. Plus, in a society so steeped in hocus pocus thinking, a voter who votes contrary to how she is told to vote, will think that others can read her mind. Belief in mind-reading is deeply set in Thailand.

And yes, there have been more than a few stories about balloting that wasn't as secret as it should have been. Ask the average Thai, and they won't even know that balloting should be 100% secret. They won't know that they aren't required to declare who they plan to vote for - to the pu yai ban (village headman) prior to, or after an election.

They're so steeped in kowtowing to authority, that they think it's required to answer such questions.

The current administration should implement a large country-wide campaign to educate the entire public - about what democracy really is - instead of assuming they already know.

Education must be the key. So many people I run into in the Northeast can't read and write thus it does not make much difference. I am quite sure that my wife's family take their 200 to 500 baht and then ask for someone to check the box or fill in the name, as neither of them can read a newspaper. So it does not matter who you want if you have to ask the person giving you the $ or the 'village boss' to help you the vote will be cast for whomever THEY like, as there is no way to verify.

[Nisa]

Finally, how naive are you all? I mean, why do you vote for your leaders in your own countries? Has some <deleted> promised "if I get the job, I'll ensure that the town gets new......." school / hospital / park / road / bypass / factory / shopping centre / jobs ............... so, in return for your vote I will ensure greater prosperity....... I'm no expert of American politics for example, but did Obama promise free health care, or huge tax breaks, or something like that................

Actually, at least in the US, I think it comes down to voting for a person that you dislike the least ... and I am not being sarcastic. I would bet it is the same in many countries.

[Nisa]

The current administration should implement a large country-wide campaign to educate the entire public - about what democracy really is - instead of assuming they already know.

I am fairly confident that the reason for this poll and its outcome is to justify some changes, and/or education as you mentioned, before the next election.

[TimTang]

I'm surprised they actually needed a poll to come to this conclusion.

Every time there's a major election the Thai mint has to keep the presses running full time in order to crank out all the 500 Baht notes the politicians require for the campaign trips to their constituency.

Does anybody actually believe that a politician needs a brief case full of 500 baht notes to cover expenses when a credit card would suffice.

[bdenner]

Let me give you my observations having a TW associated with and having worked in the Thai political system. Her friends, her family and I supplied funds for the last election, so, most definitely YES. Politicians of all persuasions buy votes any who say they don’t are bullshlting.

This is how it works:- A meeting is arranged by the candidates hard core supporters they determine who will, within the electorate, definitely vote for him/her and those who will not. The left overs are the ‘Swinging Dicks’. These are the people who need to be bribed BUT they do not necessarily cast their vote to the highest payer.

During the last Puya Baan elections, the outcome of which TW lost her position by 32 votes, we payed 200 Baht where the opposition payed 500 Baht. Our leverage was my TW’s knowledge of ALL her electorate and all things beaurocratic, her computer skills and connections within the local government, medical and teaching fraternity. Each recipient of monies was told in NO uncertain terms not to seek her help or any favours if she lost the election. Believe it or not they still come around wanting TW to do something or other for them but told to piss off and reconsider their position at the next elections.

I love the bottom line, we could never figure how the new Puya Baan funded his campaign. Well he was arrested last week along with 2 monks and a few other people during the latest drug bust. 555555

[TimTang]

Now a REAL news worthy story would be:

"Thailand's Democracy was sent into a tailspin as Thai voters started demanding 1000 baht notes for their vote rather than the customary 500 baht notes of the past"

Edited January 16, 2011 by TimTang

[MAJIC]

I suppose another way of looking at Vote Buying is:

If one was going to Vote for a certain Party and/or Politician,then it would be sensible to also take the money,as you were going to Vote for them anyway!

It becomes more Undemocratic,when one sells out to the Highest Bidder.purely for the money,with no conviction involved.

Also i'm sure there are checks in place to prove that you did vote for the Candidate/Party, who paid for your Vote.

Or maybe staying in Thailand too long, has corrupted my views?

[sam666]

Who really cares? If you live here you're not poor and will never know what it's really like to live and grow up in Issan. And i'm not talking about your nice newly fancy built house with electrical water pumps and heaters in Surin either. You live, stay and visit here as a farang and will never be a thai citizen, you do and should have no say in the country what so ever, so why argue about it on a forum? Many otjher countrys to go if you dont like it or agree with thai people, simples.

Wish the UK was more like thailand, got muslims parading at dead soldiers funerals and allowed to vote and build mosques everywhere. Would like to see that happen here.

[corkman]

Not only do I find non-sourced (or where one cannot see the actual poll questions & margin of error) polls lacking ALL credibility but also find it interesting The Nation and The Post claim two different things from the same unsourced poll.

The Nation:

61.1 per cent said they were not yet committed while 27.2 per cent supported the government and 11.7 per cent were opposed to it.

While I cannot quote The Post exactly, they stated that

61.1 per cent were in the middle and preferred to be a silent force while the 27.2 supported the gov't and 11.7 opposed it.

Being in the middle and being undecided are very different. The post seems to indicate these people are moderates or silent majority while The Nation says they are undecided.

I also find the poll mostly moot IF voters vote in secret. Voters whose vote can be bought are by definition dishonest and/or criminals. So, how can they be trusted to secretly do what the promised? The only motivation would be for those truly ignorant people whose only concern and/or understanding is getting money each election from the person willing to buy their vote.

Edit: And why would people admit they are willing to do something illegal when they appear to have given their personal information (they say these people are eligible to vote) and assuming they didn't even know (trust) the person who interviewed them. This poll doesn't even say how those contacted were contacted ... was in by phone, at stores, online or door to door?

I hope you are not suggesting the pole was in some way unscientific? I have complete faith that the media has not repoted this in order to make it as dramatic as possible. That could never happen. But wait - maybe its counter-espionage?

[corkman]

....... Plus, in a society so steeped in hocus pocus thinking, a voter who votes contrary to how she is told to vote, will think that others can read her mind. Belief in mind-reading is deeply set in Thailand......

Yep! That sums it up.

I mean, my wife believes that she was destined to live outside of Thailand because her second toe is longer than her big toe...... of course the fact that my big toe is also my longest toe is conveniently dismissed since I live here in Thailand......

I get sense that most people her do not understand the most basic aspects of Thai society...... and this is how (wodnerfully) simple minded they are.

[celtasia]

Is their vote really a secret especially in tight knit villages with dominant power structures? I doubt it.

Even if it were completely secret, many would still never believe it, and still feel obligated to vote the way they were paid to or suffer consequences.

Town and village intimidation, or be an outcast in your village, the village head man will see to that. The town voted in head of government. 46 villages in our town area, all the village head men are paid by him. Lose your part time job 6k a month. or conform. Simple isn't it. In the cities I have no Idea, but here in the sticks in Issan, Fact....some posters will say in my village it doesn't happen, but they are also blackmailed.

Insert any word for VOTES. Granny, Daughter, Kidneys, Dog, Virginity etc etc

[ginjag]

Who really cares? If you live here you're not poor and will never know what it's really like to live and grow up in Issan. And i'm not talking about your nice newly fancy built house with electrical water pumps and heaters in Surin either. You live, stay and visit here as a farang and will never be a thai citizen, you do and should have no say in the country what so ever, so why argue about it on a forum? Many otjher countrys to go if you dont like it or agree with thai people, simples.

Wish the UK was more like thailand, got muslims parading at dead soldiers funerals and allowed to vote and build mosques everywhere. Would like to see that happen here.

I do live here, in Issan, I,m not rich, I have dwelled in thai Houses and slept on rush mats, Cut sugar cane, harvested rice in the fields, made reed roofs, foraged 6am for young bamboo shoots, mushrooms, cut down and made bamboo fences, live in a very rural village.And as to my earlier post, what I said was going on voting wise is accurate. I don't think I've got a say in the running of the country, I am still classed as a visitor.I dont argue it on forum unless someone like you starts to tell people to go elsewhere. I,ve been here 30 years, dont lecture me if you have not experienced it properly. I dont agree with the policing mainly, its holding the country up more than anything. But I live with it. Tell me where your area is and what you have done to help here.??? dont class everyone the same.

[fullerphoto]

Well clearly Thai people receive the governing and policing they deserve... Why should we care as foreigners? Sell your soul, you get the Devil.

[inmysights]

Ahhh... Thailand, the hub of everything on sale.

TheWalkingMan

Including their grandmother's ass.

[ianf]

Maybe they have just worked out that all the politicians are the same.

So you might as well make some money out of it.

We in the west are just daft to keep voting for nothing.

If anyone wants to give me 500bht for my postal vote in the UK, please PM me.

PS

I noticed that my voting forms in the UK all had serial numbers on them.

Does anyone actually believe that vote is secret?

Dear Mr Cynic

Yes, in spite of the serial numbers, your vote is 100% secret in the UK. How do I know?

Well, I have been an 'agent', involved in a few counts and a County Council candidate so I know how the system works.

The serial numbers are purely to record where the ballot papers are despatched to within a constituency. Without a tracking system there would be anarchy (actually on 2nd thoughts perhaps anarchy would be best!!! lol)

Meanwhile, It is a sad state of affairs that those shouting for democracy the loudest have shown that they actually do not know what democracy is. Ruddy typical of the reds, I'm afraid and I guess the 30% in Bangkok are not the middle classes ......

And yes, in the villages, the village leaders know who you vote for. Voting in these circumstances is as secret as the front page of Today's Bangkok Post.

What saddens me is that those campaigning for democracy don't look at Burma and see what a truly undemocratic society looks like.

[phetaroi]

I'm just surprised at the figure you guys give. My friends in Sung Noen (west of Nakhon Ratchasima) told me they were paid 3,000 baht each.

[Nisa]

Since they only polled people who were "eligible" to vote I guess it is not too shocking. I would guess (but have no data) ) at least in the cities that voter turnout here is about 50% or less as it is in the USA. In elections I haven't voted in, I might consider going to the polls if somebody paid me a couple days or a weeks salary. But really just wondering the validity of this poll because IF voter turnout is around 50% it could be similar thinking or that the vast majority of voters "who vote" would not be willing to sell their vote but it is really a reflection of those who don't vote and leave it up to others to decide who should win.

[inmysights]

Thai majority would take vote bribes: poll

BANGKOK, January 16, 2011 (AFP) - Most Thai people would be willing to accept money from election candidates to buy their votes in the politically divided kingdom, according to a poll published Sunday.

Nearly 80 per cent of the respondents admitted vote-buying took place in their communities, said the Abac poll conducted by Assumption University, whose results were published on the English-language Bangkok Post website.

Of those surveyed, 53.2 percent said they would take such electoral bribes.

Another 40.2 percent would not accept the money, while 6.6 per cent were non-committal, according to the survey of 2,604 eligible voters in 18 provinces of Thailand, where a national election is due some time this year.

Nearly 70 percent of those who said they would take the bribes were from the northeast -- the heartland of Thailand's anti-government "Red Shirts" -- while the next biggest group were those in Bangkok.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-01-16

How about this, The 40.2 per cent of THAIS for selling their votes go talk with the 53.2 per cent against it. Because you, and every other farang's opinion is going to make a shit's worth of difference. F.A.C.T.

[truethailand]

Well, if more than 50% of Thai people either don't want responsible democracy or are not ready for it, they'll have to put up with what they've got - "money politics" and croneyism, or go back to rule by the military and the old influential families.

Trouble is, the easy money they're taking to have the local godfather or his puppet elected isn't really his. He'll get it back through kickbacks, bribes and various insider schemes once he's elected, and that'll be at the expense of development and services and standards for all the punters who cast their votes, in good faith or otherwise.

I think if you look closely its been under military control for at least the last 100 yrs. Thats why we have coups all the time, it retains the status quo

[Nisa]

How about this, The 40.2 per cent of THAIS for selling their votes go talk with the 53.2 per cent against it. Because you, and every other farang's opinion is going to make a shit's worth of difference. F.A.C.T.

Well given such a large portion who claim to be willing to sell their vote ... I guess us farangs could make a difference ;-)

Edited January 16, 2011 by Nisa

[sam666]

Who really cares? If you live here you're not poor and will never know what it's really like to live and grow up in Issan. And i'm not talking about your nice newly fancy built house with electrical water pumps and heaters in Surin either. You live, stay and visit here as a farang and will never be a thai citizen, you do and should have no say in the country what so ever, so why argue about it on a forum? Many otjher countrys to go if you dont like it or agree with thai people, simples.

Wish the UK was more like thailand, got muslims parading at dead soldiers funerals and allowed to vote and build mosques everywhere. Would like to see that happen here.

I do live here, in Issan, I,m not rich, I have dwelled in thai Houses and slept on rush mats, Cut sugar cane, harvested rice in the fields, made reed roofs, foraged 6am for young bamboo shoots, mushrooms, cut down and made bamboo fences, live in a very rural village.And as to my earlier post, what I said was going on voting wise is accurate. I don't think I've got a say in the running of the country, I am still classed as a visitor.I dont argue it on forum unless someone like you starts to tell people to go elsewhere. I,ve been here 30 years, dont lecture me if you have not experienced it properly. I dont agree with the policing mainly, its holding the country up more than anything. But I live with it. Tell me where your area is and what you have done to help here.??? dont class everyone the same.

Just because you decided to live like bear grylls for a bit and like to think by wiping your arse with leafs makes you like the thais in the NE, it doesn't. You do have money if you live in Thailand or are from money. You haven't grown up with nothing, had to walk km's for water, slept outside on a bench and worked on a farm alday for 100bht and then have to send your parents money.

If you did you would be taking the money and voting and not yappping on a forum about people taking 500bht to vote, it's not aimed at you. Mostly the idiots on TV that have thousands of posts moaning about Thailand or thai people, yet still choose to live here.

Edited January 16, 2011 by sam666