Fiber From Tot?

[thaitar]

I live less than 150 meters from the TOT office. I was wondering if it'd be possible to get fiber into my building. Anyone have any leads or tips? Thank you.

[Pib]

Call them or walk over and ask. But I don't think TOT does any fiber lines to individual residences; only the ADSL copper lines or T-1 leased lines.

[LivinLOS]

On Phuket we now have fiber to home setups.. The lines are capable of very high speeds but most reports are saying they are not getting much better than upper end ADSL at quite a bit more cost as its TOT thats the blockage not the line speed. One poster has some >10Mbit international speed reports tho, so there is hope.

I need better speeds than TOT is giving me.. On Phuket I had 3BB premier which was good for solid 5Mbit international day and night, for only 1090 + VAT, would love to get similar consistent speeds now (my TOT peaks at about 3Mbit but is very up and down.. 6PM seems to really slow down and thats around when I need video conferencing to europe).

Does true supply ADSL around CM and outskirts, seems they have some half decent ADSL speeds.

[thaitar]

How did you score 3BB Premium for 1090? I see it listed at 2500... I wouldn't mind 3BB Premium as well for that price hehe

[orang37]

How did you score 3BB Premium for 1090? I see it listed at 2500... I wouldn't mind 3BB Premium as well for that price hehe

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Thaitar,

Still on a BBB (ex-TOT/MaxNet: company split-off from TOT and renamed) plan for 1090 per month: according to BBB that plan is no longer offered, and the 2500 baht per month plan, now called Premier, is supposedly 5MB (download). When the plan we have now was offered at MaxNet/TOT, if we remember correctly, it was the entry-level plan for "Premier" service.

Most recent SpeedTest.net from CM outbound (we re-tested this week because our connectivity problem was resolved by BBB ... the problem was outside our house and line, at the whatever on a nearby telephone pole):

to New York:

Ping 39

Download 3.07

Upload .67

to San Francisco:

Ping 39

Download 3.06

Upload .67

to London:

Ping 39

Download 3.07

Upload .60

to Tokyo:

Ping 39

Download 3.07

Upload .78

These "modest" speeds, while dog-slow compared to American/European services, meet our needs okay (we're not doing torrents and that kind of stuff).

best, ~o:37;

Edited January 25, 2011 by orang37

[jdinasia]

TOT offers fiber in Vhiang Mai (central Chiang Mai at least) it is NOT ADSL -- it is symmetrical (same up and down speeds) I think. I am having to install a fiber line sometime in the near future at one of our locations but do not have my research with me right now. I do know that it is PRICEY! I know it was above 30k a month and think it was about 40k.

If I can dig up the files later on I will post what I learned but it has been months already, so who knows what has changed! I need the line for more than just data, so will eventually have to bite the bullet and get one installed.

[thaitar]

How did you score 3BB Premium for 1090? I see it listed at 2500... I wouldn't mind 3BB Premium as well for that price hehe

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Thaitar,

Still on a BBB (ex-TOT/MaxNet: company split-off from TOT and renamed) plan for 1090 per month: according to BBB that plan is no longer offered, and the 2500 baht per month plan, now called Premier, is supposedly 5MB (download). When the plan we have now was offered at MaxNet/TOT, if we remember correctly, it was the entry-level plan for "Premier" service.

Most recent SpeedTest.net from CM outbound (we re-tested this week because our connectivity problem was resolved by BBB ... the problem was outside our house and line, at the whatever on a nearby telephone pole):

to New York:

Ping 39

Download 3.07

Upload .67

to San Francisco:

Ping 39

Download 3.06

Upload .67

to London:

Ping 39

Download 3.07

Upload .60

to Tokyo:

Ping 39

Download 3.07

Upload .78

These "modest" speeds, while dog-slow compared to American/European services, meet our needs okay (we're not doing torrents and that kind of stuff).

best, ~o:37;

Holy "Khrup"! Ping 39??? Wow. The best I was able to get is ~ 400 on regular 3BB. Are you sure it is not a mistake? I can barely get that ping from North America.

TOT offers fiber in Vhiang Mai (central Chiang Mai at least) it is NOT ADSL -- it is symmetrical (same up and down speeds) I think. I am having to install a fiber line sometime in the near future at one of our locations but do not have my research with me right now. I do know that it is PRICEY! I know it was above 30k a month and think it was about 40k.

If I can dig up the files later on I will post what I learned but it has been months already, so who knows what has changed! I need the line for more than just data, so will eventually have to bite the bullet and get one installed.

Ya 30k is rather pricey. The technician from TOT was telling me it was ~ 10k/mo and it's a free install. But we had such poor communication, that it is entirely possible he or I misunderstood each other. However I know from the other thread that it is definitely not that pricey in Phuket. I think the prices quoted were less than 5k. Maybe you are getting some sort of heavy duty business line for that much?

Thank you for all your replies btw. It is really helpful. I need to look into this 3BB Premium more then. I wish I could test it somehow in my area before signing up.

[LivinLOS]

to New York:

Ping 39

Download 3.07

Upload .67

to San Francisco:

Ping 39

Download 3.06

Upload .67

to London:

Ping 39

Download 3.07

Upload .60

to Tokyo:

Ping 39

Download 3.07

Upload .78

These "modest" speeds, while dog-slow compared to American/European services, meet our needs okay (we're not doing torrents and that kind of stuff).

best, ~o:37;

Holy "Khrup"! Ping 39??? Wow. The best I was able to get is ~ 400 on regular 3BB. Are you sure it is not a mistake? I can barely get that ping from North America.

As per the ping thread in here.. 3BB fakes the speed and ping results. The international results are fed bangkok ruslts if using speedtest.net on 3BB

TOT offers fiber in Vhiang Mai (central Chiang Mai at least) it is NOT ADSL -- it is symmetrical (same up and down speeds) I think. I am having to install a fiber line sometime in the near future at one of our locations but do not have my research with me right now. I do know that it is PRICEY! I know it was above 30k a month and think it was about 40k.

If I can dig up the files later on I will post what I learned but it has been months already, so who knows what has changed! I need the line for more than just data, so will eventually have to bite the bullet and get one installed.

Ya 30k is rather pricey. The technician from TOT was telling me it was ~ 10k/mo and it's a free install. But we had such poor communication, that it is entirely possible he or I misunderstood each other. However I know from the other thread that it is definitely not that pricey in Phuket. I think the prices quoted were less than 5k. Maybe you are getting some sort of heavy duty business line for that much?

Thank you for all your replies btw. It is really helpful. I need to look into this 3BB Premium more then. I wish I could test it somehow in my area before signing up.

Yeah theres fiber options around 10k and up.. All reports I have got so far is its not much better than decent (2 - 3k packages) ADSL.

People reporting true 8 and 12 Mbit packages faster than fiber.

[orang37]

As per the ping thread in here.. 3BB fakes the speed and ping results. The international results are fed bangkok ruslts if using speedtest.net on 3BB

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun LivinLOS,

Thanks for the head-up on this ! We did switch to PingTest.Net and got very long ping times, very poor speed.

What's curious is : if BBB can fake SpeedTest.Net, and PingTest.Net is connected to them, why can't they fake PingTest.NET.

Also curious as to why given the slow ping and transfer times shown on PingTest: my experience in IEbeta, and Chrome beta, is quite satisfactorily rapid loading of pages in Europe and America.

Well, personally going back to running Ping "straight" from a Windows command-line prompt window, and observing the results, thanks to your comments.

Now that our "connectivity" problem has been proved to be outside our house, and fixed, getting steady download speeds of 410-420 kps which is adequate for our needs (we're not running torrent, or playing on-line games).

best, ~o:37;

Edited January 25, 2011 by orang37

[Pib]

Yea, anytime you see ping tests down around 30-60ms while doing a speed test to a site "outside" of Thailand, the speedtest results are false/wrong/being skewed by some hidden proxy server within Thailand. Normal ping times to the US and Europe will be around 300 ms.

But I could be wrong "if" BBB, True, and other Thai ISPs have invented some way to make their internet electrons travel much faster than the speed of light. Maybe they are just keeping that 25th century invention close-hold. But I'm going to bet it's just hidden proxy servers within the ISPs' Thailand network skewing the results.

[thaitar]

Yea, anytime you see ping tests down around 30-60ms while doing a speed test to a site "outside" of Thailand, the speedtest results are false/wrong/being skewed by some hidden proxy server within Thailand. Normal ping times to the US and Europe will be around 300 ms.

But I could be wrong "if" BBB, True, and other Thai ISPs have invented some way to make their internet electrons travel much faster than the speed of light. Maybe they are just keeping that 25th century invention close-hold. But I'm going to bet it's just hidden proxy servers within the ISPs' Thailand network skewing the results.

An object can travel ~ 8 times around the world at the speed of light. North America is only half revolution, that means it'd be possible to travel 16 times there and back. (1000 / 16) * 2 = 124 ms. That's the ideal ping, if two computers were connected directly to each other. However, there are of course servers and routers in between, and that's the issue. I get like 30 hops from here to NA. Maybe some companies just don't have good routes to North America. If they had a direct line from here to some big exchange in US, I think things would greatly improve. Right now I see routing going on thru some weird routes and a bunch of hops are missing.

[orang37]

... snip ... An object can travel ~ 8 times around the world at the speed of light. North America is only half revolution, that means it'd be possible to travel 16 times there and back. (1000 / 16) * 2 = 124 ms. That's the ideal ping, if two computers were connected directly to each other. However, there are of course servers and routers in between, and that's the issue. I get like 30 hops from here to NA. Maybe some companies just don't have good routes to North America. If they had a direct line from here to some big exchange in US, I think things would greatly improve. Right now I see routing going on thru some weird routes and a bunch of hops are missing.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Thaitar,

Thanks for communicating in greater detail !

fyi: pinged Google just now from a Win Vista Command window run as Administrator:

Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6002]

.... edited out ... >ping 209.85.175.99

Pinging 209.85.175.99 with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 209.85.175.99: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=51

Reply from 209.85.175.99: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=50

Reply from 209.85.175.99: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=51

Reply from 209.85.175.99: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=51

Ping statistics for 209.85.175.99:

Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),

Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:

Minimum = 64ms, Maximum = 64ms, Average = 64ms

That's on an older (not available now) BBB plan "premiere level 1" supposedly 3/1 megabytes down-up load, and with a very simple Huawei ADSL modem (not a router). Reasonable to assume Google has a proxy server in Thailand ?

best, ~o:37;

Edited January 28, 2011 by orang37

[nikster]

Yes, Google has proxy servers in Thailand. Not that that's a bad thing - Apple servers also seem to have proxies here, as I always get my full line speed downloading updates, and that really helps when they weigh in a several GB at a time.

3BB cleats on speedtest - they can in theory cheat on any speed test and ping test, if they don't then it's because they're not doing it (yet), that's all.

I used to get accurate results on speedtest.net if I chose an unlikely location, some place in Oregon no-one's ever heard of for example.

The low pings are a telltale sign - in my estimate it's impossible to get less than 200ms from Thailand. Electrons do travel only at 2/3rds of the speed of light, and there are many, many switches inbetween, and many routers as well.

[Mestizo]

... snip ... An object can travel ~ 8 times around the world at the speed of light. North America is only half revolution, that means it'd be possible to travel 16 times there and back. (1000 / 16) * 2 = 124 ms. That's the ideal ping, if two computers were connected directly to each other. However, there are of course servers and routers in between, and that's the issue. I get like 30 hops from here to NA. Maybe some companies just don't have good routes to North America. If they had a direct line from here to some big exchange in US, I think things would greatly improve. Right now I see routing going on thru some weird routes and a bunch of hops are missing.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Thaitar,

Thanks for communicating in greater detail !

fyi: pinged Google just now from a Win Vista Command window run as Administrator:

Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6002]

.... edited out ... >ping 209.85.175.99

Pinging 209.85.175.99 with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 209.85.175.99: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=51

Reply from 209.85.175.99: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=50

Reply from 209.85.175.99: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=51

Reply from 209.85.175.99: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=51

Ping statistics for 209.85.175.99:

Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),

Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:

Minimum = 64ms, Maximum = 64ms, Average = 64ms

That's on an older (not available now) BBB plan "premiere level 1" supposedly 3/1 megabytes down-up load, and with a very simple Huawei ADSL modem (not a router). Reasonable to assume Google has a proxy server in Thailand ?

best, ~o:37;

FYI, 209.85.175.99 is a google server in SE Asia somewhere. That is not US based.

-Mestizo

[Mestizo]

Yes, Google has proxy servers in Thailand. Not that that's a bad thing - Apple servers also seem to have proxies here, as I always get my full line speed downloading updates, and that really helps when they weigh in a several GB at a time.

3BB cleats on speedtest - they can in theory cheat on any speed test and ping test, if they don't then it's because they're not doing it (yet), that's all.

I used to get accurate results on speedtest.net if I chose an unlikely location, some place in Oregon no-one's ever heard of for example.

The low pings are a telltale sign - in my estimate it's impossible to get less than 200ms from Thailand. Electrons do travel only at 2/3rds of the speed of light, and there are many, many switches inbetween, and many routers as well.

I think cheating is an unfair word. The issue is there are several layers of content filtering/ caching proxies in Thailand. When somebody does a speed test to Los Angeles for example, that download file is cached in the content caching proxy. So when the next person comes along and does a speed test to LA, the proxy doesn't need to go over to the US and get that file on behalf of the client as its already cached locally. This is the nature of content caching proxies. By pick some random server in Oregon, you are selecting a server that somebody before you probably hasn't visited in a while and that content is no longer cached locally in Thailand.

As far as Google and Apple, those are not proxy servers. Those are real servers. They have servers geographically distributed across the world. When you first attempt to connect to google in a browser (or via ping), the first thing your machine does is a DNS look up to match www.google.com to an IP address. What Google and the others have done, is implement geo-ip-locating functionality in their DNS. So basically they see where you are coming from and point you to the server that is geographically nearest you.

-Mestizo

[orang37]

FYI, 209.85.175.99 is a google server in SE Asia somewhere. That is not US based.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Mestizo,

Using IP Lookup dot net shows that IP address as a server located in the US. Pinging a few other IP addresses using 209.85.#.# as a base all show up as located in the US.

best, ~o:37;

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV CM Friends,

Appreciate the really good sharing of technical knowledge on this thread by Khun Thaitar, Khun Nikster, Khun Mestizo, and others !

From the viewpoint of "practical use:" our concern is not with the theoretical ping to some obscure server in Botswana, or the US, but of the actual speed we can access the relatively small number of American, English, and European sites, as well as Thai sites, that we visit, and use, day to day.

Here, happily, after finally convincing BBB we had a connectivity problem outside our house, and getting them to fix the problem, we are finding our modest plan (3 down 1 up) satisfactory, but: again the disclaimer: we're not doing heavy downloads using Torrents or other such suck-all-up software (no insult to Torrent devotees intended by this choice of words!).

best, ~o:37;

Edited January 28, 2011 by orang37

[thaitar]

SpeedTest.net results do not get cached. The packets are randomized with each test. It is still however possible to cheat by intercepting traffic. The only way it's impossible to cheat is with HTTPS traffic, because its encrypted.

Yes, Google has proxy servers in Thailand. Not that that's a bad thing - Apple servers also seem to have proxies here, as I always get my full line speed downloading updates, and that really helps when they weigh in a several GB at a time.

3BB cleats on speedtest - they can in theory cheat on any speed test and ping test, if they don't then it's because they're not doing it (yet), that's all.

I used to get accurate results on speedtest.net if I chose an unlikely location, some place in Oregon no-one's ever heard of for example.

The low pings are a telltale sign - in my estimate it's impossible to get less than 200ms from Thailand. Electrons do travel only at 2/3rds of the speed of light, and there are many, many switches inbetween, and many routers as well.

I think cheating is an unfair word. The issue is there are several layers of content filtering/ caching proxies in Thailand. When somebody does a speed test to Los Angeles for example, that download file is cached in the content caching proxy. So when the next person comes along and does a speed test to LA, the proxy doesn't need to go over to the US and get that file on behalf of the client as its already cached locally. This is the nature of content caching proxies. By pick some random server in Oregon, you are selecting a server that somebody before you probably hasn't visited in a while and that content is no longer cached locally in Thailand.

As far as Google and Apple, those are not proxy servers. Those are real servers. They have servers geographically distributed across the world. When you first attempt to connect to google in a browser (or via ping), the first thing your machine does is a DNS look up to match www.google.com to an IP address. What Google and the others have done, is implement geo-ip-locating functionality in their DNS. So basically they see where you are coming from and point you to the server that is geographically nearest you.

-Mestizo

[Pib]

Yea, anytime you see ping tests down around 30-60ms while doing a speed test to a site "outside" of Thailand, the speedtest results are false/wrong/being skewed by some hidden proxy server within Thailand. Normal ping times to the US and Europe will be around 300 ms.

But I could be wrong "if" BBB, True, and other Thai ISPs have invented some way to make their internet electrons travel much faster than the speed of light. Maybe they are just keeping that 25th century invention close-hold. But I'm going to bet it's just hidden proxy servers within the ISPs' Thailand network skewing the results.

An object can travel ~ 8 times around the world at the speed of light. North America is only half revolution, that means it'd be possible to travel 16 times there and back. (1000 / 16) * 2 = 124 ms. That's the ideal ping, if two computers were connected directly to each other. However, there are of course servers and routers in between, and that's the issue. I get like 30 hops from here to NA. Maybe some companies just don't have good routes to North America. If they had a direct line from here to some big exchange in US, I think things would greatly improve. Right now I see routing going on thru some weird routes and a bunch of hops are missing.

Well, a light beam could travel the distance equivalent to approx 7 to 8 times around the world "in a vacuum." The speed of light (or electrons) is 186,000 miles for second "in a vacuum." Our internet connections are not like a beam of light shining around the world which has no atmosphere. The speed of propagation of light varies by the material it is traveling through. Most of our long distance internet communications is via underground or undersea fiber optic cables. Generally, fiber optics has a light propagation factor of approx 1.6. (i.e., approx 60% of the speed of light in a vacuum).

The round-trip distance from Bangkok to San Francisco is approx 12,000 miles. Divide 12,000 miles by the speed of light in a vacuum (like outer space) 186,000 miles per second and you get approx 65 milliseconds. Now increase that valve by 1.6 due to the fiber optics propagation delay and you have approx 104 milliseconds for a beam of light traveling in a fiber optics cable. But when you consider those internet electrons are not traveling in a straight line but going here and there to different locations/hops on its roundtrip travel, that 12,000 miles round-trip is going to be further. Let's say it is around 15,000 miles round-trip. 15,000 divided by 186,000 gives you approx 81 milliseconds...mutiply that by 1.6 and you get approx 130 milliseconds. Then you must crank-in the relay delays caused by each one of the hops/relays/amplifiers/server response time/bottlenecks/etc., your internet electrons must go through on their way to San Francisco and back to Bangkok....this will add around 100 to 150 milliseconds to your 130 milliseconds for a good connection, giving you somewhere between a 200 to 300 millisecond round trip travel time (true ping time) for your internet connection to the west coast...it would be longer to the east coast. But routinely you can get even slower ping times due to bandwidth choking/relay server delays/etc., along the way.

Anything faster to the U.S., and your speedtest ping time result is giving you a false reading, probably due to a hidden proxy server along the way, probably right within Thailand. Maybe once the number of hops is reduced we can start getting a little closer to that 130 milliseconds minimum possible ping time with current day fiber optics to the US west coast.

[thaitar]

Well, a light beam could travel the distance equivalent to approx 7 to 8 times around the world "in a vacuum." The speed of light (or electrons) is 186,000 miles for second "in a vacuum." Our internet connections are not like a beam of light shining around the world which has no atmosphere. The speed of propagation of light varies by the material it is traveling through. Most of our long distance internet communications is via underground or undersea fiber optic cables. Generally, fiber optics has a light propagation factor of approx 1.6. (i.e., approx 60% of the speed of light in a vacuum).

The round-trip distance from Bangkok to San Francisco is approx 12,000 miles. Divide 12,000 miles by the speed of light in a vacuum (like outer space) 186,000 miles per second and you get approx 65 milliseconds. Now increase that valve by 1.6 due to the fiber optics propagation delay and you have approx 104 milliseconds for a beam of light traveling in a fiber optics cable. But when you consider those internet electrons are not traveling in a straight line but going here and there to different locations/hops on its roundtrip travel, that 12,000 miles round-trip is going to be further. Let's say it is around 15,000 miles round-trip. 15,000 divided by 186,000 gives you approx 81 milliseconds...mutiply that by 1.6 and you get approx 130 milliseconds. Then you must crank-in the relay delays caused by each one of the hops/relays/amplifiers/server response time/bottlenecks/etc., your internet electrons must go through on their way to San Francisco and back to Bangkok....this will add around 100 to 150 milliseconds to your 130 milliseconds for a good connection, giving you somewhere between a 200 to 300 millisecond round trip travel time (true ping time) for your internet connection to the west coast...it would be longer to the east coast. But routinely you can get even slower ping times due to bandwidth choking/relay server delays/etc., along the way.

Anything faster to the U.S., and your speedtest ping time result is giving you a false reading, probably due to a hidden proxy server along the way, probably right within Thailand. Maybe once the number of hops is reduced we can start getting a little closer to that 130 milliseconds minimum possible ping time with current day fiber optics to the US west coast.

It's great that you adjusted the calculations for fiber, I didn't put that into account. I want to find something in the 200-250 range. I'd be pretty satisfied with that ping

[Pib]

It's great that you adjusted the calculations for fiber, I didn't put that into account. I want to find something in the 200-250 range. I'd be pretty satisfied with that ping

That would be nice...on a few occasions my fantastic 6Mb TOT package (giggle, giggle, fastest available to my moobaan) has approached 250ms on some ping tests to San Francisco, but usually they are closer to 300ms. But since ping tests are short tests of a few seconds they really don't show how "smoothly" the data is flowing from point X to point Y. Most of the time I can't get smooth video streaming as I get lots of pausing. When looking at the bandwidth flow a person can see there are bursts of speed for a few seconds, then a big slow down for a few seconds....almost like a person running for 10 seconds, then walking for 3 seconds, then running again for 10 seconds, then walking again for 3 seconds, etc. That problem primarily boils down to distance, number of hops, and a person's local ISP circuits. I miss my smooth video streaming. But True is laying lines in my moobaan as we speak so I will probably switch from TOT to True in a few months, and keep my fingers crossed that my internet service gets faster/smoother...but I know it's not a sure thing because many people have trouble with True whether they live in Bangkok, Pattaya, or where ever in Thailand...I'll just keep my fingers crossed.