What Would Farm Prices Be In Thailand

[WatersEdge]

Hello All,

I came upon some interesting information today,

which gives us the ability to compare Farm Prices in Thailand

with the corresponding rates in the US.

http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/MannUsda/viewDocumentInfo.do?documentID=1002

Mid page there is a blue pdf tab,

which will download a 54 page document with more than you want to know.

But you can choose the commodity or the farm requirement of your choice.

There is a fresh report due to be published at the end of this month.

Since the average Thailand farm is small and depends much more on manual labor,

the US prices paid to the Farmer for his product

will across the board seem disastrously low,

but US farmers are indeed making a living at it.

On the Purchase Price of products the US Farmer buys

expect them to be lower than the rate in Thailand as well,

because the marketing scale is much larger

and the competitive edge between many vendors is tighter.

They have a law against monopoly.

Of course you will have to convert units like $/cwt , cwt means hundredweight = 100 lb ,

to get the common Thailand Unit => Baht per Kg,

For example, the American Potato farmer is now getting $8.52 / cwt for his Potato.

That converts to B5.62 / kg

$8.52 / 100 (lb per cwt) x 30(Baht per Dollar) x 2.2 (lb/kg) => B5.62 / kg

Comparing to the going rate that Thailand Potato Farmers receive B14 / kg

The disparity is 14 / 5.62 => 249%

You would therefore conclude that Thai Farmers are loaded...right?

At least the Potato farmers should be, and we all should immediately grow Potato.

But you will find similar disparity in the other products.

Conclusion of the Day:

We have a LONG way to improve.

Predominant inefficiency in the entire farm economy burns up the potential wealth.

For the Thailand farmer who seeks out the inefficiencies in his operation,

which are within his power to defeat,

there is good money to be kept in pocket.

For Thailand's prospects at exporting farm commodities to the world

in products in direct competition to those US heavyweights

We are dead and don't know it.

There are factors of loss in the marketing chain

which are established cornerstones of the system.

The Way Things ARE

Only the failure to compete on the world market can adjust those.

Numbers are merciless,

they don't rest,

they don't adjust for position or personality

They are simply hard cold numbers that enable or prevent.

If my numbers are better than yours, I win You lose.

I'm getting off into strategy when the original intent was tactical.

So let me say that Thailand's natural situation is jam packed with wealth.

How many countries of the world have

six months of good rain?

no frost?

good soil?

The unfortunate fact that the average Thai farmer is poor could be fixed.

Not an easy fix....but defeat one dragon at a time.

[joe84330]

interesting thread. i'm from the american midwest and an Enrolled Agent by trade, i've signed many thousands of tax returns. a large percentage of those returns were for small to mid sized farms (100-1000 acres). further, a large percentage of the farmer returns were for people who loved the work but just couldn't compete financially with corporate farms which now dominate the american landscape, yet they continue to do it year after year without showing a profit (which ultimately occurs once the land is disposed of and mortgage paid off) because it's what dad/grandfather/great grandfather all did before them on that land.

as i see it, thailand is ripe for an amish style farming takeover as done in belize many years ago. decades behind in technology, ideas, desire, management skills and business acumen yet blessed with good sun, soil and rain. it will be quite a while before corporate farming gains ground here so the individual still has the advantage, provided they have the requisite skills and determination of course.

[IsaanAussie]

Very interesting topic. The push here for a "sufficiency" based economy tells much of the story. It seems to fit the reality of many Thai farmers and their motivation, "Do just enough". In the village I live in there are a small number of farmers that are always busy doing something and they are generally the better off. Most others get busy at the start and end of the rice season and after that will look for the occassional day job to earn "enough".

I agree the opportunities for Thai individuals in farming still exist. What I doubt is whether the traditional methods can survive and how long it will take to update. The price of labour now is not the bargain that it was when you compare the falling price of hiring tractors. Getting finance to upgrade equipment is easy, but how can a basically illiterate farmer understand the longer term economics of seasonal use and competition?

Regardless of the best efforts, there is only so much one man can do in a day. I see much more land under chili this year having been ploughed and rotary hoed by a hired tractor, but the beds were still made with a hand hoe, planting, weeding, mulching and fertilising all done by hand. Daily watering is still done by dragging a long hose along the furrow, bed by bed with a small 1 or 2 inch electric pump supply. A long way short of modern practice and in reality not much of a time saving.

Many more rice harvesters this year too. But for farmers who use the straw, it now has to be gathered and transported back to build the haystack. A few have converted to employing balers post harvest but most view it as an unnecessary and unaffordable expense. You dont need a shed or a tarpaulan over a haystack.

Looking at the local Kubota dealer's yard, rice planters appear to be the next big push. But as pointed out last night, what about the seed trays and other gear needed to feed these complex beasts? Plastic feeding mechanisms, Thai sunshine and basic hammer, screwdriver and multigrips toolboxes make me shudder.

Chemical fertilisers and pest controls are firmly entrenched. Amish ethics and workpractices dont appeal to most Thais who dispite keeping a few animals find the composting of their manures not to their liking. The corporate sector already controls most of the livestock industry including feed. How long will it take these vertically integrated farming giants to seek efficiency improvements in producing the crops involved?

So what does the future hold despite the opportunity for an aging, arguably poorly motivated, individual farming population? Time will tell, but I fear the answer will be the same as in most other parts of the world.

Isaan Aussie

[thunder30101]

Me thinks you should have spent more time with those farmers you talk about, you might have learned something about the real business world, as only an idiot in any small business shows a profit to uncle sam lol

[joe84330]

Me thinks you should have spent more time with those farmers you talk about, you might have learned something about the real business world, as only an idiot in any small business shows a profit to uncle sam lol

please tell me all about this real business world of yours. i've only been self employed for 30 years so i'm sure there is more i can learn. i've defended taxpayers in audits from a few thousand to a few million so i do have a pretty good basis in the "real business world".

regarding your comment that "only an idiot in any small business shows a profit to uncle sam", this tells me that you don't know the first thing about business so this should be interesting if not comical.

[IsaanAussie]

Me thinks you should have spent more time with those farmers you talk about, you might have learned something about the real business world, as only an idiot in any small business shows a profit to uncle sam lol

Hi Thunder,

I intend to spend as much time as possible with those farmers I talk about and perhaps I can learn how to make a profit from the pleasure of hard work. Any time you have to spare, you are more than welcome to escape the real business world and come visit my neighbours and I here in the countryside. Perhaps you could introduce the concept of taxation to them as I am sure it will be foreign to them. But I warn you, it will not be believed, and you will be scorned. Personally I suppose I could use an update as it is a number of years since I have had to pay taxs beyond the 40 baht a year to register our village shop with the excise tax people. My 30 years in business are well out of date.

After reading some very informed comments on the uncertain future of the USD as an international currency and the steep increases in taxation in the US where most States are united in massive debts they can never repay. Uncle Sam just keeps printing piles of money to fund international purchases in USD, so I doubt he would have any interest in my meagre finances. For my part, I'm very glad to be part of this unreal business world as your real one is a scarey place to be. So I must fully agree with you, only an idiot would show a profit to Uncle Sam. I'll even go further, according to industry leaders in the USA, only an idiot would be in business now in the States!

Isaan Aussie

[WatersEdge]

Hey Thunder,

That's noise from the clouds?

We are a serious bunch on this forum.

You can pretty well bet that if you come in just to mouth off,

you are going to catch it from all sides.

Maybe there are other forums that specialize in empty talk

more suitable to your participation.

I'll heartily second what the other two said.

My parents farm Alfalfa in the Nevada high desert,

are very profitable,

and pay their taxes to the penny.

They have been in one location 43 years this coming June.

That's the heritage of resolve to do a good job that I come from.

It's not easy to farm in Thailand,

which I suppose is the founding purpose of this useful forum.

Have you anything constructive to contribute?

[thunder30101]

Yes I know there is quite a gang mentality on thaivisa I have seen it for a long time. I am only amazed a mod hasnt come along and cut this post of mine too. No room for dissent amongst all of you with so many years of expertise in everything. IA I really dont understand what your post is about other than the signs of early dementia I never claimed to be a tax collector ?, or maybe its the water in your sacred rural area only you know about. I also have many years exp in various business, but I dont come on TV and brag about it because everyones experiences in life are different. My post was in response to some blowhard claiming to know that all small farmers in the usa are poor dumasses who dont make any money because they are too stupid to do anything different from their forefathers. Watersedge Im sure your parents never made a cash sale in their life on their farm lol and put that money in their pockets without giving uncle sam his cut. now where is that mod at ? Im tired of typing to the choir.

[IsaanAussie]

Yes I know there is quite a gang mentality on thaivisa I have seen it for a long time. I am only amazed a mod hasnt come along and cut this post of mine too. No room for dissent amongst all of you with so many years of expertise in everything. IA I really dont understand what your post is about other than the signs of early dementia I never claimed to be a tax collector ?, or maybe its the water in your sacred rural area only you know about. I also have many years exp in various business, but I dont come on TV and brag about it because everyones experiences in life are different. My post was in response to some blowhard claiming to know that all small farmers in the usa are poor dumasses who dont make any money because they are too stupid to do anything different from their forefathers. Watersedge Im sure your parents never made a cash sale in their life on their farm lol and put that money in their pockets without giving uncle sam his cut. now where is that mod at ? Im tired of typing to the choir.

Thunder, I just had a look at your recent posts list . Man, you are one angry dude! Who kicked your sandcastle over?

Watersedge, I think the answer to your question is no, nothing constructive to add.

.

[joe84330]

i hope the mods don't delete your posts, thunder. would give you a chance for some much needed self reflection.

[jamescollister]

Think I lost the real point of the thread somewhere, but here is my 2 cents worth on the difference of farming and or any small business in thailand and S/E asian in general. Here a man can make a living on his own bat, either farming or a small private enterprise. In The west free enterprise is discouraged by rules, regulation. taxes etc.I do rubber here, I could buy land in northern Australia cheaper than in Thailand [for rubber] We could work that plantation and make a resonable living, but regulations,taxes in many forms would make this type of enterprise impossible. This applies to everything you may want to try. I believe they are even charging farmers for water which they get from there own dams. You don;t even have the right to rain water. Wage slaves is what the west is all about, maybe well housed, fed and taken care off, but still owned by the system. Maybe I am on the wrong track here, but I see the same thing coming here as people sell there farms to larger and larger companies and those farmers end up working there own lands for wages. Jim

[Foreverford]

Think I lost the real point of the thread somewhere, but here is my 2 cents worth on the difference of farming and or any small business in thailand and S/E asian in general. Here a man can make a living on his own bat, either farming or a small private enterprise. In The west free enterprise is discouraged by rules, regulation. taxes etc.I do rubber here, I could buy land in northern Australia cheaper than in Thailand [for rubber] We could work that plantation and make a resonable living, but regulations,taxes in many forms would make this type of enterprise impossible. This applies to everything you may want to try. I believe they are even charging farmers for water which they get from there own dams. You don;t even have the right to rain water. Wage slaves is what the west is all about, maybe well housed, fed and taken care off, but still owned by the system. Maybe I am on the wrong track here, but I see the same thing coming here as people sell there farms to larger and larger companies and those farmers end up working there own lands for wages. Jim

I think the point of this thread at this point is educating those who haven't farmed or worked intimately with farmers (accountants and income tax consultants a huge part of the picture). I'll "brag" that I've got 1500 years of experience in the farming sector on one side of my family and a bunch more on the other side. The small farmers that have been gobbled up by the monster corporations (Shell Oil, Dupont, etc,) went under on land that they did not even purchase. This was land that has been passed down through the family. I don't think you could find many handfuls of small farmers who actually went out and purchased the land that they farm on and were able to make their payments and purchase the supplies and equipment to set up 100 - 1000 acre farms and were able to make a profitable venture of it. there a re a few, very few, exceptions to this in the end of the 20th and beginning of 21st century in the US. It's a fact a very hard fact but if you want to choose to not believe it such is life. The small farm is dead except for the small niche of organic and "sell from the roadside stand" urban farms. My cousin in Italy had to go to a salary job and abandon our ancient farm with established wine grapes, olives and many many fruit trees. He was strong and innovative. He started some of the first kiwis in the area but even with those he just couldn't get past the middle men who seem to gobble up any profit marginds that you can try to attain. I created a one man business in the US and couldn't take any cash payments and I wanted to pay a million in taxes every year but couldn't even get close. I don't know how anybody can survive and pay his insurance payments and household exspenses let alone business costs and other fiduciary obligations by showing no profit on any small scale "one man" (farming, or my production company, etc ) business. Heck in California my effective tax was about 50%. What a thrill it would be to pay a million bucks in income tax I'd love it.

Wow there is a fellow on here that seems to have no love in his soul. I hope he someday discovers some of the great things about farming, such as the ability it gives you to forgive anyone or anything because some things are beyond our control and we have to live with them. Others aren't and we can choose which things are important and do all we can to forgive and educate the unknowlegeable so that they can have peace fun and happiness in their life. Good on all you regulars that are trying to help and inform the ignorant. And always remember one of "Forever's Foibles & Follies" ...... "Never use the word "idiot" unless you are looking in the mirror" Fords Forever!!

[joe84330]

Think I lost the real point of the thread somewhere, but here is my 2 cents worth on the difference of farming and or any small business in thailand and S/E asian in general. Here a man can make a living on his own bat, either farming or a small private enterprise. In The west free enterprise is discouraged by rules, regulation. taxes etc.I do rubber here, I could buy land in northern Australia cheaper than in Thailand [for rubber] We could work that plantation and make a resonable living, but regulations,taxes in many forms would make this type of enterprise impossible. This applies to everything you may want to try. I believe they are even charging farmers for water which they get from there own dams. You don;t even have the right to rain water. Wage slaves is what the west is all about, maybe well housed, fed and taken care off, but still owned by the system. Maybe I am on the wrong track here, but I see the same thing coming here as people sell there farms to larger and larger companies and those farmers end up working there own lands for wages. Jim

I think the point of this thread at this point is educating those who haven't farmed or worked intimately with farmers (accountants and income tax consultants a huge part of the picture). I'll "brag" that I've got 1500 years of experience in the farming sector on one side of my family and a bunch more on the other side. The small farmers that have been gobbled up by the monster corporations (Shell Oil, Dupont, etc,) went under on land that they did not even purchase. This was land that has been passed down through the family. I don't think you could find many handfuls of small farmers who actually went out and purchased the land that they farm on and were able to make their payments and purchase the supplies and equipment to set up 100 - 1000 acre farms and were able to make a profitable venture of it. there a re a few, very few, exceptions to this in the end of the 20th and beginning of 21st century in the US. It's a fact a very hard fact but if you want to choose to not believe it such is life. The small farm is dead except for the small niche of organic and "sell from the roadside stand" urban farms. My cousin in Italy had to go to a salary job and abandon our ancient farm with established wine grapes, olives and many many fruit trees. He was strong and innovative. He started some of the first kiwis in the area but even with those he just couldn't get past the middle men who seem to gobble up any profit marginds that you can try to attain. I created a one man business in the US and couldn't take any cash payments and I wanted to pay a million in taxes every year but couldn't even get close. I don't know how anybody can survive and pay his insurance payments and household exspenses let alone business costs and other fiduciary obligations by showing no profit on any small scale "one man" (farming, or my production company, etc ) business. Heck in California my effective tax was about 50%. What a thrill it would be to pay a million bucks in income tax I'd love it.

Wow there is a fellow on here that seems to have no love in his soul. I hope he someday discovers some of the great things about farming, such as the ability it gives you to forgive anyone or anything because some things are beyond our control and we have to live with them. Others aren't and we can choose which things are important and do all we can to forgive and educate the unknowlegeable so that they can have peace fun and happiness in their life. Good on all you regulars that are trying to help and inform the ignorant. And always remember one of "Forever's Foibles & Follies" ...... "Never use the word "idiot" unless you are looking in the mirror" Fords Forever!!

farming is a relatively thankless endeavor yet creates some of the most genuinely good people i've met.

[Foreverford]

Think I lost the real point of the thread somewhere, but here is my 2 cents worth on the difference of farming and or any small business in thailand and S/E asian in general. Here a man can make a living on his own bat, either farming or a small private enterprise. In The west free enterprise is discouraged by rules, regulation. taxes etc.I do rubber here, I could buy land in northern Australia cheaper than in Thailand [for rubber] We could work that plantation and make a resonable living, but regulations,taxes in many forms would make this type of enterprise impossible. This applies to everything you may want to try. I believe they are even charging farmers for water which they get from there own dams. You don;t even have the right to rain water. Wage slaves is what the west is all about, maybe well housed, fed and taken care off, but still owned by the system. Maybe I am on the wrong track here, but I see the same thing coming here as people sell there farms to larger and larger companies and those farmers end up working there own lands for wages. Jim

I think the point of this thread at this point is educating those who haven't farmed or worked intimately with farmers (accountants and income tax consultants a huge part of the picture). I'll "brag" that I've got 1500 years of experience in the farming sector on one side of my family and a bunch more on the other side. The small farmers that have been gobbled up by the monster corporations (Shell Oil, Dupont, etc,) went under on land that they did not even purchase. This was land that has been passed down through the family. I don't think you could find many handfuls of small farmers who actually went out and purchased the land that they farm on and were able to make their payments and purchase the supplies and equipment to set up 100 - 1000 acre farms and were able to make a profitable venture of it. there a re a few, very few, exceptions to this in the end of the 20th and beginning of 21st century in the US. It's a fact a very hard fact but if you want to choose to not believe it such is life. The small farm is dead except for the small niche of organic and "sell from the roadside stand" urban farms. My cousin in Italy had to go to a salary job and abandon our ancient farm with established wine grapes, olives and many many fruit trees. He was strong and innovative. He started some of the first kiwis in the area but even with those he just couldn't get past the middle men who seem to gobble up any profit marginds that you can try to attain. I created a one man business in the US and couldn't take any cash payments and I wanted to pay a million in taxes every year but couldn't even get close. I don't know how anybody can survive and pay his insurance payments and household exspenses let alone business costs and other fiduciary obligations by showing no profit on any small scale "one man" (farming, or my production company, etc ) business. Heck in California my effective tax was about 50%. What a thrill it would be to pay a million bucks in income tax I'd love it.

Wow there is a fellow on here that seems to have no love in his soul. I hope he someday discovers some of the great things about farming, such as the ability it gives you to forgive anyone or anything because some things are beyond our control and we have to live with them. Others aren't and we can choose which things are important and do all we can to forgive and educate the unknowlegeable so that they can have peace fun and happiness in their life. Good on all you regulars that are trying to help and inform the ignorant. And always remember one of "Forever's Foibles & Follies" ...... "Never use the word "idiot" unless you are looking in the mirror" Fords Forever!!

farming is a relatively thankless endeavor yet creates some of the most genuinely good people i've met.

we love ya brother

[IsaanAussie]

Now we are getting back on topic. Thai people are so acceptant of disappointments compared to us. They can survive on so little. Perhaps as the farming world goes corporate, there may well always be a place for the small farmer in Thailand? Lets hope so..