Translation

[Neeranam]

I am trying to say to some people that "this is the way to a faith that works".

How does this sound?

“นี่คือทางไปสู่ความเชื่อที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

Also

"a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a higher power as we understood "him""

“ตัดสินใจอย่างเด็ดเดี่ยวที่จะทุ่มเทความมุ่งมั่นและชีวิตจิตใจของเราให้อยู่ภายใต้การดูแลของพระเจ้าตามแบบของเรา“

Thanks

NN

[spencerdharmagrafix]

I am trying to say to some people that "this is the way to a faith that works".

How does this sound?

“นี่คือทางไปสู่ความเชื่อที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

Also

"a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a higher power as we understood "him""

“ตัดสินใจอย่างเด็ดเดี่ยวที่จะทุ่มเทความมุ่งมั่นและชีวิตจิตใจของเราให้อยู่ภายใต้การดูแลของพระเจ้าตามแบบของเรา“

Thanks

NN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am sure this makes absolutely no sense at all to Thai people..what we have to realise is not to translate word for word what we want to say...Thais have a much less complex way of saying things than this..i must compliment you on your (ประมวนคำศัพท์), but i get a headache tryin to follow what you mean...try listening to professional translators translate from German to Thai for example..as i got married i had the registrar roll off a load of legal jargon like " you are both legislatively be constricted by the lagislature of "Eides Statt the non-conformity of which may result in the re-asessment of the legal effectiveness of your marriage)....this was translated into Thai as "นายทะเบียนก็บอกว่าห้ามโกหกนะมิฉะนั้นก็ติดคุกเป็น๓ปีค่ะ"

what i mean is That not only are some words hard to translate..also we have to rethink the WAY we say things in Thai..all their proverbs are one line sayings ..such as กิ้งกาได้ทอง กระต่ายสามขา ทำเชื่อได้เชื่อทำดีได้ดี we need to rethink things in a Thai way before we trs to translate something like this..also i dont really understand what you mean even in English! i think you may be thinking too much kid maak ja Buad Hua krap!

But if you really want to get5 the feel of translating samnwon Thai (proverbs) then go to buy a book called Pasaa Thai hlak wayagorn mor 3 - 6 rwom sorb khao mahaa witayalay ...It has all the famous saying in there as Universitystudents of Thai Grammar MUST learn these sayings.ps not ded diaw ded khaad

ตัดสินใจเด็ดขาด

why not just say "trust Buddha, leave it up to him" they will understand you better if they are Thai

Edited September 9, 2005 by spencerdharmagrafix

[Neeranam]

Thanks for that Spencer!

I know exactly what you mean. The problem here is that the original English was written 60 years ago by an well-educated American and there are copyright regulations.

NN

[meadish_sweetball]

The first sentence seems acceptable to me (but you know me well enough to not take my word as law, you need someone like Yoot to help you out) except there are two things I am a little wary about. The first is, that I think you should add a 'thaang' at the beginning of the sentence, since it is formal Thai.

The second is that I am not sure 'khwaam cheua' is the ideal word to use for 'faith'. To me, 'khwaam cheua' is closer to 'belief', it does not have the same ring to it as 'faith'. Maybe you could make it more precise by using an elaborate expression such as 'khwaam cheua nab theu'...?

The second sentence is a bit more problematic - don't you think you are throwing in too many words there? It is this passage I believe you might consider revising: 'จะทุ่มเทความมุ่งมั่นและชีวิตจิตใจ' ... While the sentence is not wrong per se, it looks a little too complicated for me. I can imagine most Thais who read something like that would 'bpuat hua' rather quickly, just like spencer suggests. Sorry I cannot be more constructive, you really need a native speaker here I think, my own vocabulary is too limited.

[spencerdharmagrafix]

The first sentence seems acceptable to me (but you know me well enough to not take my word as law, you need someone like Yoot to help you out) except there are two things I am a little wary about. The first is, that I think you should add a 'thaang' at the beginning of the sentence, since it is formal Thai.

The second is that I am not sure 'khwaam cheua' is the ideal word to use for 'faith'. To me, 'khwaam cheua' is closer to 'belief', it does not have the same ring to it as 'faith'. Maybe you could make it more precise by using an elaborate expression such as 'khwaam cheua nab theu'...?

The second sentence is a bit more problematic - don't you think you are throwing in too many words there? It is this passage I believe you might consider revising: 'จะทุ่มเทความมุ่งมั่นและชีวิตจิตใจ' ... While the sentence is not wrong per se, it looks a little too complicated for me. I can imagine most Thais who read something like that would 'bpuat hua' rather quickly, just like spencer suggests. Sorry I cannot be more constructive, you really need a native speaker here I think, my own vocabulary is too limited.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ความสัทธาเลื่อมใส is the correct translation for "Faith" in Thai language

But as i said this kind of way of explaining things in Thai is absolutely not relevant you will only get the reaction of people looking distantly in another direction as you are going to make their heads hurt with this i tried this way of talking years ago and it just does not work..makes one sound like "Mr. Logic" from the english comic Vis.. Just say something like "Try to trust the Lord Buddha" is enough there are a lot simple ways of saying this with the same meaning...after all that is what made "Chinese Proverbs" so famous they are concise, not long winded.

[spencerdharmagrafix]

Thanks for that Spencer!

I know exactly what you mean. The problem here is that the original English was written 60 years ago by an well-educated American and there are copyright re gulations.

NN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand that problem! my first Thai dictionary was real old school stuff and no one understood a word i was sayin in Thai..i would say "Kwam Sajja" instead of "Kwam Jring" when i meant "truth" words like these are only used by monks and Masters degree students...the guy on the noodle store doesn't know these kind of words...my wife taught me how to speak plain Thai on the street..I do actually know a lot of Thai words that my wife has never heard of (I study a lot of Pali Sanskrit texts and Philosophical Literature)

Same as some Westerners don't know some words one may like to use, so do the most thai people also not know anything above the level of education they recieved.

Another negative effect that one may have applying complex expressions in Thai that the native folk do not even understand themselves is that they may get angry or offended with you as you are rubbing their noses in the fact that they are not sufficiently educated or cant read, for example!

This is known as Roo Maak รู้มาก which does not mean "Knows a lot" rather "Know it all" and nobody likes a know it all huh?

I unfortunately had to learn this the hard way.

[yoot]

I am trying to say to some people that "this is the way to a faith that works".

How does this sound?

“นี่คือทางไปสู่ความเชื่อที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

Also

"a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a higher power as we understood "him""

“ตัดสินใจอย่างเด็ดเดี่ยวที่จะทุ่มเทความมุ่งมั่นและชีวิตจิตใจของเราให้อยู่ภายใต้การดูแลของพระเจ้าตามแบบของเรา“

Thanks

NN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, these two sentences could be understood by Thais. But it's Christian's stuff, so, it should be translated easier than for being understood. Another problem is the translation of any sentences without the whole context and lack of understanding the content probably make some mistake.

Here is just another version;

“นี่คือหนทางซึ่งนำไปสู่ความศรัทธาที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

“การตัดสินใจที่จะมอบชีวิตและความตั้งใจใด ๆ ของเราให้อยู่ภายใต้การดูแลของพระผู้เป็นเจ้า“

" you are both legislatively be constricted by the lagislature of "Eides Statt the non-conformity of which may result in the re-asessment of the legal effectiveness of your marriage)....this was translated into Thai as "นายทะเบียนก็บอกว่าห้ามโกหกนะมิฉะนั้นก็ติดคุกเป็น๓ปีค่ะ"

I don't think your Thai text was the translation of the whole thing in your English text. The translator just told you her understanding.

i would say "Kwam Sajja" instead of "Kwam Jring" when i meant "truth" words like these are only used by monks and Masters degree students...

You might misunderstand something. If you meant " สัจจะ"

" สัจจะ" means 'the act of keeping one's promiss or words' and 'truth, fact' in case of combine with other words in technical terms, such as in Buddhist teaching words, mathematics, etc. The part of sppech of this word is noun, so no ' kwaam ' in front of this word.

None of Thais would use this word stand alone in the meaning of ' truth'.

You might often hear this saying "ไม่มีสัจจะในหมู่โจร". Everyone can use this saying not just only used by monks or Master degree students.

This is known as Roo Maak รู้มาก which does not mean "Knows a lot" rather "Know it all" and nobody likes a know it all huh?

"รู้มาก ถ้ารู้จริงมันก็ดี แต่ถ้ารู้มาก แล้วทำให้ปวดหัว ก็อย่ารู้เลยซะดีกว่า".

[Neeranam]

Well, these two sentences could be understood by Thais. But it's Christian's stuff, so, it should be translated easier than for being understood. Another problem is the translation of any sentences without the whole context and lack of understanding the content probably make some mistake. smile.gif

Here is just another version;

“นี่คือหนทางซึ่งนำไปสู่ความศรัทธาที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

“การตัดสินใจที่จะมอบชีวิตและความตั้งใจใด ๆ ของเราให้อยู่ภายใต้การดูแลของพระผู้เป็นเจ้า“

Actually K.Yoot, it's not really Christian. The text is used by Buddhists in China and Japan, and lots of Hindus in India. It is a spiritual way to quit the booze.

Thanks for your input.

[yoot]

Actually K.Yoot, it's not really Christian. The text is used by Buddhists  in China and Japan, and lots of Hindus in India. It is a spiritual way to quit the booze.

Thanks for your input.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry.

It sounds like Christian for me. If it's used by Buddhists then พระผู้เป็นเจ้า should be changed to พระพุทธองค์

[spencerdharmagrafix]

Actually K.Yoot, it's not really Christian. The text is used by Buddhists  in China and Japan, and lots of Hindus in India. It is a spiritual way to quit the booze.

Thanks for your input.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry.

It sounds like Christian for me. If it's used by Buddhists then พระผู้เป็นเจ้า should be changed to พระพุทธองค์

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This topic is good for us to improve our vocabulary in Thai but i still think that if a Thai person could read it all they would laugh their heads off at how ridiculously complicated we make things...I personally love Thai people and their country because of their simplicity in the way they think and lead their lives.

Thai people are right when they say that farang are "Gwon Son Thiin" "Rueang Maak"

What the heck does it matter anyway? you are never going to need this kind of speech with Thai people just keep things simple and you will avoid problems..Thai people do not like this kind of thought it is superfluous, and will only make Thais think we are crazy if we try to talk like that..they will run away!- my wife agrees!

Edited September 11, 2005 by spencerdharmagrafix

[Mr. Farang]

Another negative effect that one may have applying complex expressions in Thai that the native folk do not even understand themselves is that they may get angry or offended with you as you are rubbing their noses in the fact that they are not sufficiently educated or cant read, for example!

This is known as Roo Maak รู้มาก which does not mean "Knows a lot" rather "Know it all" and nobody likes a know it all huh?

I unfortunately had to learn this the hard way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have never had your experience - that using vocabulary which is old, or high by Thai standards, made anyone offended. In fact, most Thai people enjoy (very much) it when Farangs speak Thai this way. My (ex) Thai girlfriend often joked that she found it both "cute" and "lovely" that I spoke a sort of "poetic Thai" only heard in Thai Likey (Thai Opera). They see it as a form of "entertainment" which is well accepted conversational "sanook" in Thailand.

BTW, "Roo Maak" is more often used as a compliment, and not as "know it all."... sorry to disagree with you Spencerdharmagrafix. I have been in situations, time and time again, where Thai person says "Roo Maak" meant to be a compliment with a big smile and under "very happy" Thai situations - and, personally, I have never been in a situation where "Roo Maak" was used to describe my knowledge of Thailand or Thai culture in Thailand as a "know it all."

In Laos, speaking "high Thai" I had the time of my life.... and in the North of Laos, speaking a kind of "Likey Thai" with a group of 80 or so women in a weaving village, I was treated very special (of course, I was also spending money..... so few people cared about the formality of language!!!)

Even taxi drivers appreciate it when "high Thai" is spoken by a Farang.

Maybe the response is based on individual personality of the speaker and how it is presented? Or maybe I'm just a walking "Farang Thai Opera" character in Thailand -- having fun every where I go - without problems -- just smiles upon smile !!!! Wealthy Thai families (husband and wife) introduce me to their daughters....... and encourage them to spend time with me.

To each his own experience, right?

[Neeranam]

Sorry. biggrin.gif

It sounds like Christian for me. If it's used by Buddhists then พระผู้เป็นเจ้า should be changed to พระพุทธองค์

The guy who wrote it was in fact a Christian. As I said, because of copyright certain things cannot be changed.

Of course พระผู้เป็นเจ้า is not right for Buddhists.

The only altenative i can think of is to use something like สิ่งศักดิ์สิทธิ.

[bannork]

often hear this saying "ไม่มีสัจจะในหมู่โจร". Everyone can use this saying not just only used by monks or Master degree students.

'There is no honour among thieves' meaning no honesty, sincerity.

[

Edited September 12, 2005 by bannork

[spencerdharmagrafix]

Another negative effect that one may have applying complex expressions in Thai that the native folk do not even understand themselves is that they may get angry or offended with you as you are rubbing their noses in the fact that they are not sufficiently educated or cant read, for example!

This is known as Roo Maak รู้มาก which does not mean "Knows a lot" rather "Know it all" and nobody likes a know it all huh?

I unfortunately had to learn this the hard way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have never had your experience - that using vocabulary which is old, or high by Thai standards, made anyone offended. In fact, most Thai people enjoy (very much) it when Farangs speak Thai this way. My (ex) Thai girlfriend often joked that she found it both "cute" and "lovely" that I spoke a sort of "poetic Thai" only heard in Thai Likey (Thai Opera). They see it as a form of "entertainment" which is well accepted conversational "sanook" in Thailand.

BTW, "Roo Maak" is more often used as a compliment, and not as "know it all."... sorry to disagree with you Spencerdharmagrafix. I have been in situations, time and time again, where Thai person says "Roo Maak" meant to be a compliment with a big smile and under "very happy" Thai situations - and, personally, I have never been in a situation where "Roo Maak" was used to describe my knowledge of Thailand or Thai culture in Thailand as a "know it all."

In Laos, speaking "high Thai" I had the time of my life.... and in the North of Laos, speaking a kind of "Likey Thai" with a group of 80 or so women in a weaving village, I was treated very special (of course, I was also spending money..... so few people cared about the formality of language!!!)

Even taxi drivers appreciate it when "high Thai" is spoken by a Farang.

Maybe the response is based on individual personality of the speaker and how it is presented? Or maybe I'm just a walking "Farang Thai Opera" character in Thailand -- having fun every where I go - without problems -- just smiles upon smile !!!! Wealthy Thai families (husband and wife) introduce me to their daughters....... and encourage them to spend time with me.

To each his own experience, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sounds quite correct tom me i am happy for you if that has been your experience..and yes it probably has something to do with my personality too if ihad a negative experience sometimes..could also be one of two other possibilities; namely one (i hope not) that you just misinterpret the Roo maak as complimentary because you are too narcissistic , i dont think so though as you sound quite a reaonable and polite person (sorry im just trying to figure things out), and then there is 2; that you simply havent had the bad luck to meet someone who meant it in a bad way. But yes i agree many times it is used in a "friendly sarcasm" kind of way..same as "cabron" in spanish..say it in the wrong context and you get a smack in the face or worse..say it to a trusted friend , and it becomes a compliment...Intelligent comments from you! Nice food for thought for me..I am a seemingly cynical person, but i am also open to criticism and lneed these kind of comments to learn about myself and otzhers..thank you for this post..By the way jus call me spencer my handle is a bit long to have to write all the time...

[Mr. Farang]

I am trying to say to some people that "this is the way to a faith that works".

How does this sound?

“นี่คือทางไปสู่ความเชื่อที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This phrase is a bit shorter and should work.

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้

[Neeranam]

This phrase is a bit shorter and should work.

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้

Interesting. I'll try that out with some Thais.

[meadish_sweetball]

I am trying to say to some people that "this is the way to a faith that works".

How does this sound?

“นี่คือทางไปสู่ความเชื่อที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

This phrase is a bit shorter and should work.

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้

Sorry, but to me and my girlfriend this sentence does not make any sense. Awaiting other comments.

[bannork]

I am trying to say to some people that "this is the way to a faith that works".

How does this sound?

“นี่คือทางไปสู่ความเชื่อที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This phrase is a bit shorter and should work.

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but to me and my girlfriend this sentence does not make any sense. Awaiting other comments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With all due respects Neeranam, it doesn't make any sense in English!

If a faith works then you don't need to show the way;

you'd be saying:' this is the way!'

'here is the road to enlightenment,'

'follow me, Jesus saves'

do you mean:' this is the way\path whereby you can attain the way of thinking\ attitude\ belief that works in life'?

or

'Keep on this track and you'll find it works for you in your life?'

You have the advantage of having been sober for several years, please elucidate further.

[Mr. Farang]

I am trying to say to some people that "this is the way to a faith that works".

How does this sound?

“นี่คือทางไปสู่ความเชื่อที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This phrase is a bit shorter and should work.

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but to me and my girlfriend this sentence does not make any sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will try to explain why "making sense" is difficult....

The original phrase from the OP, "faith that works" also (using your words) "makes no sense" because the question "works for what purpose" is not answered. When the speaker and listener know the context of the message, it "makes sense" much like a line of poetry out of a poem "makes no sense".

With all due respects Neeranam, it doesn't make any sense in English!

If a faith works then you don't need to show the way;

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, Khun Bannork is correct! Thank you very much!

In this case, the speaker is trying to relay an abstract concept, "faith" or "belief" that it "works" or that following that faith "works"... this is very abstract when out of context.

Hence, I looked at all the confusion in the topic and simply tried to construct something abstract in reply, basically, trying to say in Thai:

"(we) can use this way to meet with faith "

"this way" "meet with" "faith" "can use" .......(Thai), as it is common to use the phrase "chai dai" in Thai to express the concept of usage, usefulness, etc.

It may not "make any sense" ..... it is completely out of context.... an abstraction... and it might not be correct, from a grammer perspective.......

I thought it would be fun to try. Can you correct my attempt to create this abstract concept using (?):

"this way" "meet with" "faith" "can use" ??

Thanks!

Edited September 18, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Neeranam]

Guys, you are quite right, I should have given the whole thing so as you could see the context.

Here is the paragrapgh that is in English: -

Practising Step 3 is like the opening of a door which to all appearances is still closed and locked. All we need is a key, and the decision to swing it open. There is only one key, and it is called willingness. Once unlocked by willingness, the door opens almost of itself, and loking through it, we shall see a pathway beside which is an inscription, It reads: "this is the way to a faith that works" .

And the Thai and a bit further for anyone interested:

“ตัดสินใจอย่างเด็ดเดี่ยวที่จะทุ่มเทความมุ่งมั่นและชีวิตจิตใจของเราให้อยู่ภายใต้การดูแลของพระเจ้าตามแบบของเรา”

การปฏิบัติตามขั้นตอนที่สามนั้น เปรียบได้กับการเปิดประตูที่ดูเหมือนยังปิดสนิทและล็อคอยู่ สิ่งที่เราต้องการก็มีเพียง กุญแจ และการที่เราตัดสินใจว่าจะเปิดมัน และมันก็มีกุญแจอยู่อย่างเดียวเท่านั้น เรียกว่า ความเต็มใจ และทันทีที่ล็อคถูกปลดออกด้วยความเต็มใจนั้น ประตูก็แทบจะเรียกได้ว่าสามารถเปิดออกมาได้เองทีเดียว และเมื่อเรามองผ่านประตูนี้เข้าไป เราก็จะพบทางเดินซึ่งข้างในมีตัวอักษรจารึกไว้ว่า “นี่คือทางไปสู่ความเชื่อที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

ในขั้นตอนสองขั้นแรกนั้น เราได้คุยกันถึงการประเมินสถานการณ์ที่เราเป็นอยู่ เราได้พบว่าเราเคยเป็นผู้ที่ไม่มีอำนาจใด ๆ เหนือแอลกอฮอล์เลย แต่เราก็ยังพบว่า ความศรัทธา หรือ ความเชื่อในบางสิ่งบางอย่าง แม้นจะเป็นเพียงแค่ความศรัทธาในตัว AA เองก็ตาม เป็นสิ่งที่เป็นไปได้สำหรับทุก ๆ คน และข้อสรุปที่เราได้มานี้ ไม่ได้ต้องการการลงมือกระทำใด ๆ เลย แค่เพียงต้องการการยอมรับความจริงเหล่านี้อย่างหมดหัวใจเท่านั้น

และก็เหมือนกับขั้นตอนที่เหลืออื่น ๆ ของ AA ขั้นตอนที่สามนั้นเป็นขั้นตอนที่ต้องการการลงมือกระทำ เพราะการลงมือกระทำเท่านั้นเราถึงจะสามารถตัดขาดจากความเห็นแก่ตัวบางอย่างที่คอยจะปิดกั้นการที่พระเจ้า หรือ สิ่งศักดิ์สิทธิ์ที่มีอำนาจเหนือกว่าเรา จะสามารถเข้ามาในชีวิตของเราได้ แน่นอนว่าความศรัทธานั้นเป็นสิ่งจำเป็น แต่ความศรัทธาอย่างเดียวนั้นทำอะไรไม่ได้ เราสามารถมีแต่ศรัทธาแต่ไม่ได้มีพระเจ้าอยู่ในชีวิตของเราได้ ดังนั้น ประเด็นของเราตอนนี้จึงอยู่ที่ เราจะทำอย่างไร และ มีกระบวนการขั้นตอนอะไรบ้าง ที่เราจะสามารถน้อมนำให้พระเจ้าเข้ามาสู่ชีวิตของเราได้ ขั้นตอนที่สามเป็นขั้นตอนแรกของเราในการพยายามที่จะทำสิ่งนี้ จะว่าไปแล้ว ประสิทธิภาพของโปรแกรมของ AA ทั้งหมด ขึ้นอยู่กับว่า เราจะสามารถปฏิบัติขั้นตอนที่สามนี้ อันได้แก่การ “ตัดสินใจอย่างเด็ดเดี่ยวที่จะทุ่มเทความมุ่งมั่นและชีวิตจิตใจของเราให้อยู่ภายใต้การดูแลของพระเจ้าตามแบบของเรา“ ได้ดีและจริงจังขนาดไหน

สำหรับผู้เริ่มต้นใหม่ ๆ ทุกคนที่ต่างก็ล้วนมีประสบการณ์ทางโลกที่โชกโชนและมองอะไรอย่างเป็นเหตุเป็นผลจับต้องได้ ขั้นตอนนี้ดูเหมือนจะยาก หรือไม่ก็ดูจะเป็นไปไม่ได้เลยด้วยซ้ำ เพราะไม่ว่าเราจะพยายามเพียงใด แต่เราจะทำ ได้อย่างไร ล่ะ ที่จะมอบความมุ่งมั่นและชีวิตจิตใจให้กับพระเจ้า ซึ่งก็ยังไม่ทราบดีเลยด้วยซ้ำว่าพระเจ้านั้นเป็นอย่างไร แต่ก็ยังนับว่าโชคดีที่พวกเราที่ได้เคยลองทำผ่านขั้นตอนนี้มาแล้ว และด้วยความลำบากใจเช่นเดียวกัน สามารถเป็นพยานได้อย่างเต็มปากเต็มคำได้ว่า ทุก ๆ คนจริงๆ ไม่ว่าจะเป็นใครก็ตาม สามารถจะเริ่มทำขั้นตอนนี้ได้

เรายังสามารถกล่าวเสริมได้อีกด้วยว่า ในตอนเริ่มแรกนี้ แม้นเพียงแต่การลงมือกระทำที่เล็กน้อยที่สุดก็เหเพียงพอแล้ว เพราะว่าเมื่อเราได้นำลูกกุญแจแห่งความเต็มใจ หรือ ความตั้งใจสอดเข้าไปในกลอนประตูที่ล็อคอยู่ และสามารถแง้มประตูเปิดออกได้เพียงเล็กน้อยเท่านั้น เราก็จะพบว่า เราจะสามารถค่อย ๆ เปิดมันออกมากขึ้นเรื่อย ๆ ได้เสมอ และถึงแม้ว่าความเห็นแก่ตัว หรือคิดถึงแต่ประโยชน์ส่วนตนเป็นหลักจะปิดประตูนั้นอีกครั้งหนึ่ง ซึ่งก็เป็นเรื่องธรรมดาที่มันจะเกิดขึ้นได้อีกบ่อย ๆ ประตูนั้นก็จะยังเปิดออกได้อีกเสมอทุกครั้งที่เราหยิบกุญแจแห่งความเต็มใจนั้นขึ้นมาเพื่อจะไขกุญแจเพื่อปลดล็อคมันใหม่อีกครั้ง

บางทีสิ่งเหล่านี้อาจฟังดูเป็นอะไรที่ลึกลับและไกลตัว ราวกับทฤษฎีสัมพันธภาพของไอน์สไตน์หรือสมมติฐานในวิชานิวเคลียร์ฟิสิกส์ แต่จริง ๆ แล้วมันไม่ได้เป็นอย่างนั้นเลย เรามาดูกันดีกว่าว่ามันเป็นเรื่องที่สามารถนำมาปฏิบัติกันได้จริง ๆ อย่างไร ทุก ๆ คนที่ได้เข้าร่วมกับ AA และตั้งใจที่จะอยู่ร่วมกับเราต่อทั้งชายและหญิงต่างก็พบว่า พวกเขาได้เริ่มต้นลงมือกระทำการเปลี่ยนแปลงตัวเองที่ขั้นตอนที่สามนี่แหละแบบไม่รู้ตัว ลองคิดดูสิว่า จริงหรือไม่ที่ทุก ๆ คนต่างก็ตัดสินใจที่จะหันทิศทางชีวิตมาสู่การดูแล และอยู่ภายใต้การแนะนำของ AA ในเรื่องทุกเรื่องที่เกี่ยวกับแอลกอฮอล์? ตรงนี้เองที่ความเต็มใจและความตั้งใจได้รับการลงมือกระทำแล้วโดยการโยนแนวคิดและการกระทำแบบเดิม ๆ ของตนทิ้งไปแล้วเลือกที่จะทำตามแนวทางของ AA แทนที่ ผู้ที่มาใหม่ทุกคนต่างก็รู้สึกมั่นอกมั่นใจว่า AA เป็นเหมือนอ่าวที่พักพิงอันสงบปลอดภัยจากคลื่นลมและพายุ สำหรับเรือลำน้อย ๆ ที่บอบบางเสี่ยงต่อการแตกสลายเป็นเสี่ยง ๆ อย่างที่พวกเขาได้กลายมาเป็นเช่นนั้นเมื่อเขาเป็นโรคพิษสุราเรื้อรัง เพราะฉะนั้น ถ้าสิ่งนี้ไม่สามารถเรียกได้ว่า เป็นการทุ่มเทความมุ่งมั่นและชีวิตจิตใจมาสู่ศรัทธาที่พบใหม่แล้วล่ะก็ เราจะเรียกมันว่าอะไรล่ะ?

แต่สมมติว่าสัญชาติญาณยังคงเรียกร้องอยู่ ซึ่งมันก็คงจะยังเป็นอย่างนั้นอย่างแน่นอนว่า “เอาล่ะ ในเรื่องที่เกี่ยวกับแอลกอฮอล์ ฉันคิดว่าฉันคงจะต้องพึ่ง AA แต่ในเรื่องอื่น ๆ แล้ว ฉันยังจะต้องรักษาความเป็นอิสระของฉันเอาไว้เหมือนเดิม ไม่มีอะไรที่จะทำให้ฉันกลายเป็นอะไรก็ไม่รู้ที่ไม่มีตัวตนไปได้อย่างเด็ดขาด ถ้าฉันมัวแต่หันไปทุ่มเทชีวิตจิตใจและความมุ่งมั่นของฉันให้กับบางสิ่งบางอย่าง หรือใครบางคนอยู่เสมอ แล้วจะเกิดอะไรขึ้นกับตัวฉันล่ะทีนี้? ฉันก็คงเป็นเหมือนกันรูตรงกลางโดนัทนั่นเอง!”

[Mr. Farang]

Guys, you are quite right, I should have given the whole thing so as you could see the context.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Neeranam,

If I was teaching Thais something as abstract as this, I would not try to create a direct translation, but instead, would "weave" your abstract concepts into the pillars of Thai faith, tradition and culture - Theravada Buddhism.

I kindly suggest that this approach will be more fruitful, in Thailand with Thai people, as you will use the "Thai Reference" providing a common basis for understanding.

Abstract concepts such as "faith" and "magical doors" and "keys" etc should be rooted in Thai concepts and frames of reference. Your discussion, to a Thai, is a bit more far-fetched than science-flction, without the entertainment quality of big-screen sci-fi :-)

Edited September 18, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(Neeranam @ 2005-09-18 23:00:34)

Guys, you are quite right, I should have given the whole thing so as you could see the context.

*

Dear Neeranam,

If I was teaching Thais something as abstract as this, I would not try to create a direct translation, but instead, would "weave" your abstract concepts into the pillars of Thai faith, tradition and culture - Theravada Buddhism.

I kindly suggest that this approach will be more fruitful, in Thailand with Thai people, as you will use the "Thai Reference" providing a common basis for understanding.

Abstract concepts such as "faith" and "magical doors" and "keys" etc should be rooted in Thai concepts and frames of reference. Your discussion, to a Thai, is a bit more far-fetched than science-flction, without the entertainment quality of sci-fi :-)

Mr. Farang,

Thanks for taking the time to read and offer advice.

You are right.

Unfortunately, due to copyright, this version has to be done pretty directly, word for word.

Also unfortunately, or lazily, my knowledge of Thai Buddhism, and Thai language is not very good. I couldn't translate this into what you suggest. I do make references to "Phra Pee Ganet", and "sing sak sid", which seems to work, when trying to get the higher power or god idea across.thing across. Hopefully one day I will be able to translate such a thing.

Thanks for your input

Edited September 18, 2005 by Neeranam

[Mr. Farang]

Also unfortunately, or lazily, my knowledge of Thai Buddhism, and Thai language is not very good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My knowledge of Theravada Buddhism is much better than my knowledge of Thai Language.... if my Thai Lanaguage skills were much, much better, I would be happy to help more.

Take care, Krap.

[spencerdharmagrafix]

I am trying to say to some people that "this is the way to a faith that works".

How does this sound?

“นี่คือทางไปสู่ความเชื่อที่สามารถช่วยท่านได้”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This phrase is a bit shorter and should work.

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but to me and my girlfriend this sentence does not make any sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will try to explain why "making sense" is difficult....

The original phrase from the OP, "faith that works" also (using your words) "makes no sense" because the question "works for what purpose" is not answered. When the speaker and listener know the context of the message, it "makes sense" much like a line of poetry out of a poem "makes no sense".

With all due respects Neeranam, it doesn't make any sense in English!

If a faith works then you don't need to show the way;

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, Khun Bannork is correct! Thank you very much!

In this case, the speaker is trying to relay an abstract concept, "faith" or "belief" that it "works" or that following that faith "works"... this is very abstract when out of context.

Hence, I looked at all the confusion in the topic and simply tried to construct something abstract in reply, basically, trying to say in Thai:

"(we) can use this way to meet with faith "

"this way" "meet with" "faith" "can use" .......(Thai), as it is common to use the phrase "chai dai" in Thai to express the concept of usage, usefulness, etc.

It may not "make any sense" ..... it is completely out of context.... an abstraction... and it might not be correct, from a grammer perspective.......

I thought it would be fun to try. Can you correct my attempt to create this abstract concept using (?):

"this way" "meet with" "faith" "can use" ??

Thanks!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

เมียผมก็บอกว่าคนที่เขียนข้อความนี้ก็พูดถูกไวยากรณ์แต่ก็พูดถูกที่ไม่พูดกันครับ ใครจะอยากพูดซ้บซ้อนแบบนี้

ก็ต้องบ้าอยู่แล้วครับผม บวดหัวซิ

[spencerdharmagrafix]

I can just see Thai people spending weeks trying to analyse a "Philosophical" sounding phrase that doesn't mean anything at all!

it's really embarrassing how we farang prove how confused, and egoistic we are trying to prove we are เก่ง What a load of Dogmatic semantic conjecture Buad Hua ja Thaay!

Edited September 19, 2005 by spencerdharmagrafix

[yoot]

Guys, you are quite right, I should have given the whole thing so as you could see the context.

Here is the paragrapgh that is in English: -

Practising Step 3 is like the opening of a door which to all appearances is still closed and locked. All we need is a key, and the decision to swing it open. There is only one key, and it is called willingness. Once unlocked by willingness, the door opens almost of itself, and loking through it, we shall see a pathway beside which is an inscription, It reads: "this is the way to a faith that works" .

Khun Neeranam,

Did you translate this yourself? If yes, thumb up for you. It's not really smooth but pretty good.

This phrase is a bit shorter and should work.

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้

This Thai sentence makes no sense at all. I can't even understand the meaning of it.

[Mr. Farang]

This phrase is a bit shorter and should work.

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้

This Thai sentence makes no sense at all. I can't even understand the meaning of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Yoot,

Thank you. I was trying to take an abstract concept and express it in Thai in a very short sentance.

"this way" "meet with" "faith" "can use"

Meaning (or trying to mean), in English, "we can use this way to meet with faith"...... which really does not make sense in English, come to think about it, laughing out loud :-)

Yours sincerely, Mr. Farang

Edited September 19, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Neeranam]

Khun Neeranam,

Did you translate this yourself? If yes, thumb up for you.  It's not really smooth but pretty good.

I didn't translate this, I am proofreading it, checking that it is accurate to the original English.

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้ is, I'm afraid wrong.

[Mr. Farang]

ทางนี่พบกันถือศาสนาใช้ได้ is, I'm afraid wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Laughing, yes, I couldn't even get the subject-verb agreement to match! It does not make sense to me either, and I created it :-) Seems the grammar is all wrong to me. I should have checked the grammar more closely before posting that one!

Neeranam, are you a missionary (or similar religious person) in Thailand working to convert (or influence) Buddhists to Christianity (or similar ideas), by any chance?

Edited September 20, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Neeranam]

Neeranam, are you a missionary (or similar religious person) in Thailand working to convert (or influence) Buddhists to Christianity (or similar ideas), by any chance?

No, I ain't even a practising Christian.

Trying to get Thai people sober and clean using a 12 step programme.