Red Shirts Promise Rally Of 'Unprecedented Numbers'

[whybother]

<snipped bits>

Professional response is needed now and can be an absolute argument for one side or another.

I kindly ask for qualified, serious answer.

I have a question primarily for the worshipers of yellow shirts and Democrats.

But I will accept arguments, substantiated evidence, the response from supporters of the red shirt.

You ask for a professional response, and then exclude half the TV posters???

What about posters that don't support the red shirts or the yellow shirts?

[bulmercke]

Thanks for posting this Emptyset - very interesting commentary.

Somyot: They are the People's Movement and they were established after the coup four years ago in order to remember the structure of the Thai people movement 78 years ago when we had the first liberation in Thai society to change from the monarchy system to the parliamentary system.

At 4.30 minutes into the interview Somyot states that at least 20 people are currently being held on lesse majeste charges in Thailand.

At 8.10 minutes he states that unlike UDD they are not connected with the Pheu Thai party and have no policy to go that way. Many UDD leaders can become politicians in the future.

In the second video he states that they are quite confident that Pheu Thai will get the majority of seats but they cannot form their own government because of the present government and the coalition. I believe that they (The Democrats) still have the majority of seats in the parliament because they can control the small and medium sized political parties.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So there clearly are red shirts motivated by ideology and not just by the force of Thaksin's personality (or wallet, as some allege), but these events and splinter groups don't have anywhere near as many participants as the UDD have, though I think they're gaining ground. It's a shame people would rather hear Jatuporn ramble on about nothing, rather than support people who're actually committed to serious political change in Thailand.

Here's an interview in English with Somyot of June 24 group, where he explains their aims and the difference between his group and the UDD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10KnDhCOipQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HADWNLLfEtY

Edited February 18, 2011 by bulmercke

[rubl]

Thanks for posting this Emptyset - very interesting commentary.

Somyot: They are the People's Movement and they were established after the coup four years ago in order to remember the structure of the Thai people movement 78 years ago when we had the first liberation in Thai society to change from the monarchy system to the parliamentary system.

At 4.30 minutes into the interview Somyot states that at least 20 people are currently being held on lesse majeste charges in Thailand.

At 8.10 minutes he states that unlike UDD they are not connected with the Pheu Thai party and have no policy to go that way. Many UDD leaders can become politicians in the future.

In the second video he states that they are quite confident that Pheu Thai will get the majority of seats but they cannot form their own government because of the present government and the coalition. I believe that they (The Democrats) still have the majority of seats in the parliament because they can control the small and medium sized political parties.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So there clearly are red shirts motivated by ideology and not just by the force of Thaksin's personality (or wallet, as some allege), but these events and splinter groups don't have anywhere near as many participants as the UDD have, though I think they're gaining ground. It's a shame people would rather hear Jatuporn ramble on about nothing, rather than support people who're actually committed to serious political change in Thailand.

Here's an interview in English with Somyot of June 24 group, where he explains their aims and the difference between his group and the UDD:

Difficult to reply to this post without getting into a situation where forum rules will be breached.

The peoples movement 78 yeas ago was less of a peoples movement, but more like progressing towards a democracy with less Royal patronage and more power to lower level 'elite'. This happened in the Netherlands 80-year's war, even in America's war of independence. The common people tended to be the human resource aka cannon fodder.

Lots of red-shirt faction 'organisers' and 'leaders' may have been grass-root, but seem similar to middle class nowadays. Especially the UDD leaders with Mercs seem to have lost contact with their supporters, or would have if there wasn't a saintly supporter with lots of money.

With some red-shirt factions still gathering with the UDD, it's very difficult to take them serious. Independent of k. Thaksin? Sorry for March - May 2010? Lament 'our' deaths? Make up your mind. Did I hear an apology for the grenade attacks, the torching of buildings, etc., etc. ?

Just saying 'yea but that was then, we've progressed' is not really enough in my eyes.

IMHO as usual, not better, not worse. Honestly and trying to be open-minded and fair

[MILT]

Well said. I'm pounding the table!

Something just seems very wrong with the fact these lunatics keep using reasons to hold these rallies that only relate to the consequences of the rally (rioting) last year.

Even though they turned down early elections last year (that would have already happened) and walked away with nothing but causing pain for themselves and all the people of Thailand they continue to stage these events where they continue to get bolder and provoke police as they did last year. Do they really expect to see a different result?

They are not using these rallies to get a message out .. they are using them to intimidate and inconvenience the country to get their way.

Why are they not forced to pay for the added police presence as well as compensating those people and businesses that are effected by these constant gatherings? Ok, let them do it once but to do this nonsense every other week (or more) is excessive.

I personally predict that they are going to get very bold this time around and may actually once again try to spur a revolution or cripple the government. Somebody should tell them before hand this only works in a country where the people want one. One can only imagine how well off these so called poor farmers would be if they used the resources they continue to waste on these gatherings to help advance their own lives.

Good points, I'm in 100% agreement with you.

[bulmercke]

Thanks for posting this Emptyset - very interesting commentary.

Somyot: They are the People's Movement and they were established after the coup four years ago in order to remember the structure of the Thai people movement 78 years ago when we had the first liberation in Thai society to change from the monarchy system to the parliamentary system.

At 4.30 minutes into the interview Somyot states that at least 20 people are currently being held on lesse majeste charges in Thailand.

At 8.10 minutes he states that unlike UDD they are not connected with the Pheu Thai party and have no policy to go that way. Many UDD leaders can become politicians in the future.

In the second video he states that they are quite confident that Pheu Thai will get the majority of seats but they cannot form their own government because of the present government and the coalition. I believe that they (The Democrats) still have the majority of seats in the parliament because they can control the small and medium sized political parties.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So there clearly are red shirts motivated by ideology and not just by the force of Thaksin's personality (or wallet, as some allege), but these events and splinter groups don't have anywhere near as many participants as the UDD have, though I think they're gaining ground. It's a shame people would rather hear Jatuporn ramble on about nothing, rather than support people who're actually committed to serious political change in Thailand.

Here's an interview in English with Somyot of June 24 group, where he explains their aims and the difference between his group and the UDD:

Difficult to reply to this post without getting into a situation where forum rules will be breached.

The peoples movement 78 yeas ago was less of a peoples movement, but more like progressing towards a democracy with less Royal patronage and more power to lower level 'elite'. This happened in the Netherlands 80-year's war, even in America's war of independence. The common people tended to be the human resource aka cannon fodder.

Lots of red-shirt faction 'organisers' and 'leaders' may have been grass-root, but seem similar to middle class nowadays. Especially the UDD leaders with Mercs seem to have lost contact with their supporters, or would have if there wasn't a saintly supporter with lots of money.

With some red-shirt factions still gathering with the UDD, it's very difficult to take them serious. Independent of k. Thaksin? Sorry for March - May 2010? Lament 'our' deaths? Make up your mind. Did I hear an apology for the grenade attacks, the torching of buildings, etc., etc. ?

Just saying 'yea but that was then, we've progressed' is not really enough in my eyes.

IMHO as usual, not better, not worse. Honestly and trying to be open-minded and fair

rubl- in the two videos there is no mention of Thaksin. So what if some of their leaders drive Mercs. That's life. The movement undoubtedly attracts well-to-do middle class (often the shakers and movers) as well as the less better off. That's understood.

Anyway - that aside - big - big rally and march coming up in a few hours time. The Reds certainly need to make their numbers and presence count this time round!

[rubl]

rubl- in the two videos there is no mention of Thaksin. So what if some of their leaders drive Mercs. That's life. The movement undoubtedly attracts well-to-do middle class (often the shakers and movers) as well as the less better off. That's understood.

Anyway - that aside - big - big rally and march coming up in a few hours time. The Reds certainly need to make their numbers and presence count this time round!

No mention of k. Thaksin? Good, put them next to those videos which do mention k. Thaksin. So what if some leaders drive Mercs, that's life, for some only though. The movement attracted some of those already established middle class and other elite, money speaks my friend. That may be understood, but doesn't make some more idealistic, "I'm not into this for the money" do-gooders. Seeing k. Jatuporn with a Gandhi T-shirt is so ironic, especially after k. Jatuporn went on record saying 'till the last drop of blood I'll fight on' (and surrendered).

Unprecedented number today, the birds that is. Free our leaders the topic for the UDD faction, some will remember the six death in the Wat, conveniently forgetting a few others that day, including wounded like Canadian vanderGrift and a soldier (grenade, what else?). Yes, I know the government should open up more and with a bit more pressure they will. The reds, sorry for the inconvenience, sorry but free our leaders, bring back k. Thaksin he knows the solution to our problems (he said).

Well Saturday late afternoon till Sunday evening party time at Democracy Monument. Music, free food, toilets, BMA clean-up after. Hey, even I might join

Edited February 18, 2011 by rubl

[MAJIC]

I seem to recall a claim for a large amount of Demonstraters before.

So whats the best they can muster?

100,000 - 200,000?

or are they Dreaming,of a larger Rally than the Burn Down Bangkok one ?

[stepenwolf1958]

<snipped bits>

Professional response is needed now and can be an absolute argument for one side or another.

I kindly ask for qualified, serious answer.

I have a question primarily for the worshipers of yellow shirts and Democrats.

But I will accept arguments, substantiated evidence, the response from supporters of the red shirt.

You ask for a professional response, and then exclude half the TV posters???

What about posters that don't support the red shirts or the yellow shirts?

That third category of posters here is more than welcome. For sure. I am also trying to be neutral(doing as well, so far) That is why i pointed yellows and reds as first.

[heybruce]

No one forces the (unforesightable) to have children before they can afford to properly raise a kid.

Know what I mean?

Uh, Thailand has no social safety net for the average worker when he or she is too old to work, their retirement plan is to have children. Strong incentive for large families.

[heybruce]

No one forces the (unforesightable) to have children before they can afford to properly raise a kid.

Know what I mean?

Possibly a study of the status of education/sex education here and the fact that abortion is illegal may help your understanding, but off topic.

redshirts are redshirts because they make the ( choice ) to not work hard and work towards making future generations upwardly mobile.

They supposedly are buddhists but all that occupys them is the petty and temporal.

they supposedly love the leader of The Kingdom but they choose to ignore the fact that HRH has already spoken to all this when He allowed His military to oust taksin.

They need to stop blaming folks for their making a prior choice to not plan for life.

Clueless, clueless, clueless. Do you really think there is a level playing field and everyone starts life with equal opportunity? Do you really think that subsistence farming isn't hard work? Do you really think that the schools in the villages where one or two teachers teach all ages and all subjects provide an education equal to the private schools the rich can afford?

[Buchholz]

Traffic around Rajprasong closed

Traffic around the Rajprasong Intersection was closed by noon Saturday after the red-shirt people gathered there to commemorate the deaths of their peers.

The red-shirt demonstrators gathered at the intersection before moving to rally at the Supreme Court in the evening.

-- The Nation 2011-02-19

[Buchholz]

Two companies of police guard Supreme Court

Two companies of policemen were deployed to guard the Supreme Court at Sanam Luang Saturday morning ahead of the red-shirt rally there.

Crowd-control policemen from the Metropolitan Police Bureau put up barricades around the court.

The red-shirt people plan a demonstration there to demand judges to approve bail of seven red-shirt leaders being detained in the Remand Prison.

-- The Nation 2011-02-19

[kdc1899]

<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

<BR>No one forces the (unforesightable) to have children before they can afford to properly raise a kid.<BR>Know what I mean?<BR>

<BR><BR>Possibly a study of the status of education/sex education here and the fact that abortion is illegal may help your understanding, but off topic.<BR>

<BR><BR>redshirts are redshirts because they make the ( choice ) to not work hard and work towards making future generations upwardly mobile.<BR>They supposedly are buddhists but all that occupys them is the petty and temporal.<BR>they supposedly love the leader of The Kingdom but they choose to ignore the fact that HRH has already spoken to all this when He allowed His military to oust taksin.<BR>They need to stop blaming folks for their making a prior choice to not plan for life.<BR>

<BR>Clueless, clueless, clueless. Do you really think there is a level playing field and everyone starts life with equal opportunity? Do you really think that subsistence farming isn't hard work? Do you really think that the schools in the villages where one or two teachers teach all ages and all subjects provide an education equal to the private schools the rich can afford?<BR>

<BR><BR><IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/violin.gif"> <BR><BR>Regardless of all the relavant points you make;<BR>no one forces those unable to afford children to have children and no one should be legislated into helping those who are unwilling to plan for an independent life.<BR>HRH has already spoken to all this when He allowed His military to oust taksin and take down the protests last year.<BR>This is a Kingdom and a Buddhist one at that.<BR>know what I mean<BR>

[Buchholz]

The other paper is reporting that Jatuporn announcing from the stage this afternoon that today is the biggest Red Shirt rally ever.

So I guess it really is "unprecedented" according to him.

If that's the case, are any of our Bangkokian members seeing in excess of 100,000 Red Shirts on the streets today?

.

[Robby nz]

Dont know about the numbers of red supporters following Jatuporns mobile rally stage havent seen any estimates of numbers as yet but they certainly seem to be out is unprecedented numbers on Thai Visa today, Amsterdam must be paying overtime.

[Buchholz]

A Thai anti-government "red shirt" protester holds a toy gun as she jokes with a policeman during a rally outside the Supreme Court in Bangkok February 19, 2011.

REUTERS

Thai anti-government "red shirt" protesters with their faces painted attend a rally outside the Supreme Court in Bangkok February 19, 2011.

REUTERS

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//110219/ids_photos_wl/r1396595084.jpg/

[Buchholz]

Dont know about the numbers of red supporters following Jatuporns mobile rally stage havent seen any estimates of numbers as yet

Jatuporn seems to be over-stating the "unprecedented" attendance by a factor of (x10) thus far:

"Amsterdam went to England and got a copy of Abhisit's birth certificate which proves that he was born a British citizen," UDD leader Jatuporn Prompang told a gathering of more than 10,000 red-shirted followers.

Amsterdam was hired by fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, the de facto leader of the Puea Thai opposition party and the money-man behind the UDD, also called red shirts for their preferred protest garb.

DPA

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/368116,proof-premier-is-british.html

[Oberkommando]

Arguing that one is more violent than the other is like arguing which egg is more egg-shaped.

Only if one is trying to discount the violence of the historically much more violent Red Shirts.

No, one group is only more visibly violent because the different governments at the time took different approaches; one through negotiation, the other sent in the Army to use force and live ammunition to disperse protesters.

Had the Police/Army attempted to remove the yellow shirts from the airport things would have been much different I'm sure you'll agree. Weeks earlier when the Police tried to move the yellow shirts from Government House there were bloody clashes on the street. This of course was before the red shirts were even protesting!

So don't kid us on that the yellows are not as violent or have no history of it.

To answer someone else's question about paramilitary sections of the red and particularly the yellows support; the yellow have a large paramilitary arm which is mostly young to middle aged men. They were the ones responsible for the initial closing of the airport; they were armed with firearms and melee weapons, they have basic military/security/police training, wear masks, balaclavas and heavy clothing and went ahead of the larger group of protesters to seal off the roads, take over the airport's key areas and they even stormed the control tower (now denied but there's video evidence of this happening).

I personally witnessed the closure of the airport and it wasn't old grannies with hand-clappers until the TV cameras arrived, much, much, much later on.

[pedro01]

Arguing that one is more violent than the other is like arguing which egg is more egg-shaped.

Only if one is trying to discount the violence of the historically much more violent Red Shirts.

No, one group is only more visibly violent because the different governments at the time took different approaches; one through negotiation, the other sent in the Army to use force and live ammunition to disperse protesters.

Had the Police/Army attempted to remove the yellow shirts from the airport things would have been much different I'm sure you'll agree. Weeks earlier when the Police tried to move the yellow shirts from Government House there were bloody clashes on the street. This of course was before the red shirts were even protesting!

So don't kid us on that the yellows are not as violent or have no history of it.

To answer someone else's question about paramilitary sections of the red and particularly the yellows support; the yellow have a large paramilitary arm which is mostly young to middle aged men. They were the ones responsible for the initial closing of the airport; they were armed with firearms and melee weapons, they have basic military/security/police training, wear masks, balaclavas and heavy clothing and went ahead of the larger group of protesters to seal off the roads, take over the airport's key areas and they even stormed the control tower (now denied but there's video evidence of this happening).

I personally witnessed the closure of the airport and it wasn't old grannies with hand-clappers until the TV cameras arrived, much, much, much later on.

Aren't you ignoring all the violence that occured before the Army finally moved in on the red shirts?

[Robby nz]

Wonderful how the red supporters twist everything out of context.

Trying to make a thread about the reds into one about the yellows.

However I will answer this one:

Arguing that one is more violent than the other is like arguing which egg is more egg-shaped.

A much better analogy would be dogs.

Both are capable of biting and causing injury.

But in this case the red dog is much more vicious, violant and deadly than the yellow dog.

[Buchholz]

Arguing that one is more violent than the other is like arguing which egg is more egg-shaped.

Only if one is trying to discount the violence of the historically much more violent Red Shirts.

No, one group is only more visibly violent because the different governments at the time took different approaches; one through negotiation, the other sent in the Army to use force and live ammunition to disperse protesters.

Had the Police/Army attempted to remove the yellow shirts from the airport things would have been much different I'm sure you'll agree. Weeks earlier when the Police tried to move the yellow shirts from Government House there were bloody clashes on the street. This of course was before the red shirts were even protesting!

So don't kid us on that the yellows are not as violent or have no history of it.

I never said the yellows have no history of violence, just that it pales in comparison to the lengthier history of violence of the Reds.

I'm only pointing out the glaring dissimilarity between the level of weaponry and amount and frequency of violence between the two groups whereas you seemingly attempt to equate them equally when there's mountains of evidence to the contrary.

This of course was before the red shirts were even protesting!

Actually, the Red Shirt violence pre-dates that of the yellows with the their riot in July 2007 that injured hundreds. We're still waiting for the court cases to proceed further on those charges, btw.

.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Buchholz

[rubl]

The other paper is reporting that Jatuporn announcing from the stage this afternoon that today is the biggest Red Shirt rally ever.

So I guess it really is "unprecedented" according to him.

If that's the case, are any of our Bangkokian members seeing in excess of 100,000 Red Shirts on the streets today?

At 2.25PM the other newspaper talked about 'a large number at Ratchaprasong', The Nation said 'police estimated 8000'. Really unprecedented. Let's hope more will join the fun at Democracy Monument

[Buchholz]

We're up to 9,000 now...

BANGKOK, Saturday 19 February 2011 (AFP) -- Thousands of Thai "Red Shirts" gathered in Bangkok on Saturday to mark nine months since a bloody crackdown on their anti-government rally and to press for the release of detained leaders.

Police estimated around 8,000 protesters massed in Ratchaprasong, the retail heart of the city, and a further thousand met at Democracy Monument

http://www.mysinchew.com/node/53468?tid=37

[jdinasia]

rubl- in the two videos there is no mention of Thaksin. So what if some of their leaders drive Mercs. That's life. The movement undoubtedly attracts well-to-do middle class (often the shakers and movers) as well as the less better off. That's understood.

Anyway - that aside - big - big rally and march coming up in a few hours time. The Reds certainly need to make their numbers and presence count this time round!

? Looks as if they failed to make any real numbers.

The fact that the "shakers and movers" have the imported Mercedes' tells much about the "grass roots" level of this "movement".

The shakers and movers are just another set of elite vying for time at the trough and sadly they control the redshirts, thus again .. there is no "grass roots" movement at all.

[Buchholz]

rubl- in the two videos there is no mention of Thaksin. So what if some of their leaders drive Mercs. That's life. The movement undoubtedly attracts well-to-do middle class (often the shakers and movers) as well as the less better off. That's understood.

Anyway - that aside - big - big rally and march coming up in a few hours time. The Reds certainly need to make their numbers and presence count this time round!

? Looks as if they failed to make any real numbers.

This democracy advocate made it there...

A "Red Shirt" anti-government protester wears novelty sunglasses and a red wig during a demonstration at Ratchaprasong intersection in Bangkok on Saturday.

AFP

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/3939Red-Shirt3939-anti-government-protester-wears-novelty-sunglasses-and-red-wig/photo//110219/photos_wl_pc_afp/164c98626729bceda18ae7ac3bc5351c//s:/afp/20110219/wl_afp/thailandpoliticsprotest_20110219151244;_ylt=AmWeQ..JQi454JB.zwasLDiROrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTE5YjBpdWFwBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9yX3RvcF9waG90bwRzbGsDdGhvdXNhbmRzb2Z0

[jdinasia]

But really .... this is a "grassroots" movement of the rural disenfranchised ... NOT anything else!

[473geo]

Wonderful how the red supporters twist everything out of context.

Trying to make a thread about the reds into one about the yellows.

However I will answer this one:

Arguing that one is more violent than the other is like arguing which egg is more egg-shaped.

A much better analogy would be dogs.

Both are capable of biting and causing injury.

But in this case the red dog is much more vicious, violant and deadly than the yellow dog.

The more you kick a dog the more likely it will bite........

[bulmercke]

rubl- in the two videos there is no mention of Thaksin. So what if some of their leaders drive Mercs. That's life. The movement undoubtedly attracts well-to-do middle class (often the shakers and movers) as well as the less better off. That's understood.

Anyway - that aside - big - big rally and march coming up in a few hours time. The Reds certainly need to make their numbers and presence count this time round!

? Looks as if they failed to make any real numbers.

The fact that the "shakers and movers" have the imported Mercedes' tells much about the "grass roots" level of this "movement".

The shakers and movers are just another set of elite vying for time at the trough and sadly they control the redshirts, thus again .. there is no "grass roots" movement at all.

Addressing your first point jdinasia - it certainly looks like they failed to make the numbers they would have wanted - but then again there were several thousand lined - in the shade - on both sides of Ratchadamnoen and along the Supreme Court side of Sanam Luang - and on the road itself both sides of the Democracy Monument - at around 5.00 PM when I left. All the time many more were joining the rally so who knows what the final tally will be. The cool of dark always brings out many more rally-goers.

Undoubtedly many Bangkokians - the majority - attended the rally and yes some of them do indeed have nice motors - but they are a very - very - small minority. Obviously they share the same beliefs and aspirations of ordinary Red-Shirt protesters. They haven't forgotten their roots.

As for your assertion they control the ordinary mass and file of Red-Shirt protesters. Sorry wrong. It's essentially a grass roots movement with common beliefs shared by all of its participants.

Whatever the outcome and assessment of today's events - the Reds are back.

Red across the land!

[rubl]

Addressing your first point jdinasia - it certainly looks like they failed to make the numbers they would have wanted - but then again there were several thousand lined - in the shade - on both sides of Ratchadamnoen and along the Supreme Court side of Sanam Luang - and on the road itself both sides of the Democracy Monument - at around 5.00 PM when I left. All the time many more were joining the rally so who knows what the final tally will be. The cool of dark always brings out many more rally-goers.

Undoubtedly many Bangkokians - the majority - attended the rally and yes some of them do indeed have nice motors - but they are a very - very - small minority. Obviously they share the same beliefs and aspirations of ordinary Red-Shirt protesters. They haven't forgotten their roots.

As for your assertion they control the ordinary mass and file of Red-Shirt protesters. Sorry wrong. It's essentially a grass roots movement with common beliefs shared by all of its participants.

Whatever the outcome and assessment of today's events - the Reds are back.

Red across the land!

We were told to watch out for 'unprecedented' numbers. One of the protests at Ratchapasong (upto a few months ago) had probably 30,000. Unprecedented would suggest a wee bit more than that. On the other hand if as you say 'many BKKers - the majority' attended the rally today, we must have had between 3 and 6 million depending on which total population you think Bangkok has. Must admit I didn't notice so many

Reds are back? Well they never really were away, now were they? Red across the land? Keep dreaming my friend, no problem with that.

Red-shirt protesters can be divided into six factions at least. The UDD is the most vocal, many of their leaders have been very vocal and are in prison, or have fled the country. Three out on bail, 2 of them MPs. Free our leaders, justice for all, down with British domination. Must have missed some, most I've heard in not about grass-roots, apology for Mach - May 2010 and grenade attacks and burned a bit of read estate I haven't heard either. Dr. weng apologised half-heartedly for the storming of a hospital, but that's all. Last year it was about democracy, at least on English language protest boards, the Thai mostly differ, but those the international press and public can't read anyway. Propaganda, an agenda, but grass-roots, democracy?

[animatic]

rubl- in the two videos there is no mention of Thaksin. So what if some of their leaders drive Mercs. That's life. The movement undoubtedly attracts well-to-do middle class (often the shakers and movers) as well as the less better off. That's understood.

Anyway - that aside - big - big rally and march coming up in a few hours time. The Reds certainly need to make their numbers and presence count this time round!

? Looks as if they failed to make any real numbers.

The fact that the "shakers and movers" have the imported Mercedes' tells much about the "grass roots" level of this "movement".

The shakers and movers are just another set of elite vying for time at the trough and sadly they control the redshirts, thus again .. there is no "grass roots" movement at all.

Addressing your first point jdinasia - it certainly looks like they failed to make the numbers they would have wanted - but then again there were several thousand lined - in the shade - on both sides of Ratchadamnoen and along the Supreme Court side of Sanam Luang - and on the road itself both sides of the Democracy Monument - at around 5.00 PM when I left. All the time many more were joining the rally so who knows what the final tally will be. The cool of dark always brings out many more rally-goers.

Undoubtedly many Bangkokians - the majority - attended the rally and yes some of them do indeed have nice motors - but they are a very - very - small minority. Obviously they share the same beliefs and aspirations of ordinary Red-Shirt protesters. They haven't forgotten their roots.

As for your assertion they control the ordinary mass and file of Red-Shirt protesters. Sorry wrong. It's essentially a grass roots movement with common beliefs shared by all of its participants.

Whatever the outcome and assessment of today's events - the Reds are back.

Red across the land!

Or the more well heeled ones have a connection with PTP and higher end Red leadership backers, and see financial light at the end of their personel tunnels if the Reds win in the coming election. To imagine that only the rural poor and hopeful are backing Thaksin's mob is absurd.