When Whitening Propoganda Goes Too Far

[Jingthing]

Nobody lied about anything. It was a matter of how authorities made legal classifications.

To clarify again, I am NOT saying superficial physical differences don't exist between different groups of people. Natives of Ghana are mostly dark skinned. Natives of Norway, mostly light skinned. I am just saying those superficial differences don't make race. There is no black race, there is no white race, there are groups of people that are blacker, groups of people that are whiter, that's all. And yes, we can indeed still talk about race as if it is a real thing, because people SEE it as a real thing, and understandably so from a visual point of view.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Why do I get the distinct feeling I have been feeding a troll?

Based on the quality of your recent posts, I think you're being self referential, n'est-ce pas?

[Slip]

This topic is SO off the rails- Thanks Jinthing.

[Huey]

Probably because you have JT.

Don't worry bout it. I feel what your saying. It's all about common courtesy and treating our fellow man (ie one race, with many different cultures) as we would like to be treated. Bigots will scream PC and apparently it's trendy these days for people to rebel against the simple fairness that is at the heart of PC. I guess it looks better to say "I hate PC" then to say "I'm a racist"

[Moonrakers]

Probably because you have JT.

Don't worry bout it. I feel what your saying. It's all about common courtesy and treating our fellow man (ie one race, with many different cultures) as we would like to be treated. Bigots will scream PC and apparently it's trendy these days for people to rebel against the simple fairness that is at the heart of PC. I guess it looks better to say "I hate PC" then to say "I'm a racist"

Are you suggesting that somebody who can recognise different races is racist?

[Jingthing]

I would go further. I would say that almost all sighted people can and do see/recognize race and that all people ARE racist to a certain degree. Once people become conscious of that reality, they can begin to work on reducing the damage that implies. People who assert they are color blind are almost always big fat liars (often to themselves as well). I know this sounds a contradiction, but it's not. Race is real to our eyes, but it is not real to genetic science, there really isn't a contradiction, those are different things.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[wintermute]

Well the truth of the matter, for all those people who think it's trivial or that Thais don't care. There is now over 600 posts on this topic on pantip alone, prompting Oishi to apologise on their face book page and vow to remove the advertisement ASAP.

I mean these guys are pissed off, they were posting pictures of the bus that Rosa Parks had refused to sit in the back of. That one shocked even me, how cool is that

http://www.pantip.co.../Q10263211.html

That's pretty impressive how middle class educated Thais rallied against it. Must mean more people are getting fed up with inequality in Thai society and constantly being bombarded with soap operas, commercials, etc... showing these things.

[Moonrakers]

People who assert they are color blind are almost always big fat liars (often to themselves as well).

Colour blind in this context doesn't mean they can't see the difference, it means they don't care about the difference.

Are you really trying to suggest that people cannot tell the difference between two different colours?

[Jingthing]

People who assert they are color blind are almost always big fat liars (often to themselves as well).

Colour blind in this context doesn't mean they can't see the difference, it means they don't care about the difference.

Are you really trying to suggest that people cannot tell the difference between two different colours?

I think when people say they are color blind they are often implying more than you say, rather that they are so purely not racist that the perceived race of someone they see doesn't even enter their brain space. Of course, that is rarely possible. It does enter our brain space; the trick is what we do and think about that information. That is harder than it sounds when you consider all the social conditioning most of us have had. That's why I feel global racism can't really be lessened until most individuals acknowledge their OWN racism and work on it from a place of awareness rather than denial. Which I guess you can interpret that I think it is a pretty hopeless cause as I don't see that really happening. That's reality I guess, most of the world is living on under two dollars a day, you can't afford much naval gazing on those wages.

No, of course people can see color differences, unless there is something very defective in their vision.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Moonrakers]

People who assert they are color blind are almost always big fat liars (often to themselves as well).

Colour blind in this context doesn't mean they can't see the difference, it means they don't care about the difference.

Are you really trying to suggest that people cannot tell the difference between two different colours?

I think when people say they are color blind they are often implying more than you say, rather that they are so purely not racist that the perceived race of someone they see doesn't even enter their brain space. Of course, that is rarely possible. It does enter our brain space; the trick is what we do and think about that information. That is harder than it sounds when you consider all the social conditioning most of us have had.

No, of course people can see color differences, unless there is something very defective in their vision.

I think you are just taking a well known phrase that is obviously a metaphor, and manipulating it in an attempt to reinforce a remarkably flawed argument.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Moonrakers

[Jingthing]

You don't say exactly how my argument is flawed. You might think of forming your thoughts a bit more robustly before you post unsupported critiques.

I am a little surprised nobody jumped on me to accuse me of admitting to being racist. Yes, I am racist, and in my view, so is everyone else. Now what do we do about it? For starters, maybe stop with the whitening cream and drinks?

Edited February 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Moonrakers]

I am a little surprised nobody jumped on me to accuse me of admitting to being racist.

Perhaps because doing such a thing would give credence to your nonsense *cough* "logic".

And no, I shan't expand on that. It's all in the thread already and I'm not going to repeat myself.

[Huey]

Probably because you have JT.

Don't worry bout it. I feel what your saying. It's all about common courtesy and treating our fellow man (ie one race, with many different cultures) as we would like to be treated. Bigots will scream PC and apparently it's trendy these days for people to rebel against the simple fairness that is at the heart of PC. I guess it looks better to say "I hate PC" then to say "I'm a racist"

Are you suggesting that somebody who can recognise different races is racist?

I'm saying what I said. You can interpret that how you like. My meaning is that recognizing differences is neutral (for those of us with eyes and ears) it's what you think about them and how you treat others based on these differences that is key and at the heart of PC.

[Moonrakers]

Probably because you have JT.

Don't worry bout it. I feel what your saying. It's all about common courtesy and treating our fellow man (ie one race, with many different cultures) as we would like to be treated. Bigots will scream PC and apparently it's trendy these days for people to rebel against the simple fairness that is at the heart of PC. I guess it looks better to say "I hate PC" then to say "I'm a racist"

Are you suggesting that somebody who can recognise different races is racist?

I'm saying what I said. You can interpret that how you like. My meaning is that recognizing differences is neutral (for those of us with eyes and ears) it's what you think about them and how you treat others based on these differences that is key and at the heart of PC.

Agreed.

[StreetCowboy]

I'm colour-blind, which is why I so often harp back to the happier, simpler days when we could classify everything as black and white.

I think JT has done a great job of hijacking a Thailand-related topic on social prejudices and the morals of class-based aspirational advertising in Thailand and taking it to one of his pet crusades, and at the same time, reinforcing many of our prejudices and lampooning social anthropological research by selective underestanding. Remember that you don't have to oppose something to destroy it!

I challenge you now, JT: Take this thread to misogyny! Or miscegeny - your choice...

SC

[Jingthing]

More relevant to the topic from the OP. Is there racism from central Thais/Thai Chinese, etc. towards darker skinned Isaan people? Of course there is! How can anyone seriously deny that?

The cultural separation from Central Thailand, combined with the region's poverty and the typically dark skin of its people, has encouraged a considerable amount of racism against the people of Isan from ethnic Thais; the novelist Pira Sudham wrote that, "Some Bangkok Thais... said that I was not Thai, but... a water buffalo or a peasant". Even though many Isan people now work in the cities rather than in the fields, they are largely restricted to low-status jobs such as construction workers and prostitutes, and discriminatory attitudes persist. Nevertheless, the Central Thai perception of Isan is not wholly negative: Isan food and music have both been enthusiastically adopted and adapted to the tastes of the rest of the country.

http://www.geckovilla.com/thailandfacts.html Edited February 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

Cheers SC!

BTW ---- I HATE PC ... and it doesn't make me racist in the least

Jing are you really using a commercial website for Geckovilla as your basis of an argument? And if so why are you not addressing the historical (modern history!) notations that until the 1960's neither central Thais nor people from Isaan considered people from Isaan Thai, or the linguistically and culturally pertinent fact that they have an origin more closely related to Laos? The quote below comes from that same page and would make the suggestion that it is Cultural issues that are at the root of the problem and not skin color which while it may be a factor doesn't explain the lack of the same issues from Nakhon Nayok (primarily agricultural province close to BKK, where people working in agriculture will be just as dark, or Kanchanaburi (large provice with a population that does the same types of work but have more cultural ties to Myanmar, or even Nakhon Sri Thammarat in the lower 16 provinces (South).... ?

Before the 1960s, the people of Thai Isan were simply labelled Lao and wrote in the language in the Lao alphabet before the central government forcibly introduced the Thai alphabet and language in schools. Most Isan people now speak the Isan language which is closely related to Lao language.

Edited February 25, 2011 by jdinasia

[Ruperts]

Jeez, when are people gonna learn not to take race so seriously? It was obviously just a joke. Maybe getting this prejudice out in the open might dilute it some. We see all over the world how cocconing racism doesn't make it go away, when are we going to move on?

[Jingthing]

jd, sociopolitical perceptions of race, language/culture, nationality are quite often very related/mixed with patterns of discrimination and hatred. A good example is how many USAmericans feel racist against Mexicans. Are Mexicans a race? Nope, but many people are racist toward them. This PC, not PC thing I don't even understand. It does indeed sound like many people are using their pride of being non PC to rationalize all kinds of racism. I don't buy it. Make your arguments, fine, but crowing about you hate PC is not really relevant and it's not really convincing.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Jeez, when are people gonna learn not to take race so seriously? It was obviously just a joke. Maybe getting this prejudice out in the open might dilute it some. We see all over the world how cocconing racism doesn't make it go away, when are we going to move on?

Cocconing? Not mocking you, I really don't get what you are saying with that non-word. Did you mean Cocooning? If so, I still don't get it!

[Ruperts]

Jeez, when are people gonna learn not to take race so seriously? It was obviously just a joke. Maybe getting this prejudice out in the open might dilute it some. We see all over the world how cocconing racism doesn't make it go away, when are we going to move on?

Cocconing? Not mocking you, I really don't get what you are saying with that non-word. Did you mean Cocooning? If so, I still don't get it!

Sorry, yes, I meant cocooning, as in cocoon - the protective barrier formed by some insects.

[Kilgore Trout]

I am sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that people of very similar appearance can be very, very racist to each other. If you seriously don't understand that, ask some Israelis and Palestinians or even more extreme, ask some Hutu and Tutsi from Rwanda.

Not racism in any case that you mentioned ... strictly ethnic issues. Ethnic fighting and civil wars always tend to be the bloodiest. It just doesn't fall under the label "race."

Israelis and palestinians are both "semitic," so of the same race; biblically both descended from Abraham, cousins if you will just like Thais and Laotians. :jap:

You are missing the point entirely. Race doesn't exist except in our heads. We are all the same race. Jews and Arabs are no more similar GENETICALLY than Eskimos and Armenians. The point is that people SEE race, so Jews and Arabs typically react to each other as being from different races.

Much scientific research and dna analysis would disagree with you as well as most scientists, and ask any arab and they will tell you that jews and arabs are cousins 100%, this coming straight from both the Koran and the old Testament, so no, they do not see each other as coming from a different race. The current hatred comes only from modern politics and the creation of the state of Israel. Trust me, as a jew pre 1948 you would much rather live in the middle east than in Europe where jews were being ostracised and discriminated against for centuries culminating in the slaughter of millions during the holocaust.

[jdinasia]

jd, sociopolitical perceptions of race, language/culture, nationality are quite often very related/mixed with patterns of discrimination and hatred. A good example is how many USAmericans feel racist against Mexicans. Are Mexicans a race? Nope, but many people are racist toward them. This PC, not PC thing I don't even understand. It does indeed sound like many people are using their pride of being non PC to rationalize all kinds of racism. I don't buy it. Make your arguments, fine, but crowing about you hate PC is not really relevant and it's not really convincing.

It was a direct response to another form of bigotry expressed in this thread. Directly equating people who hate the PC/thought/speech control crowd as racists.

Now -- are Mexicans a "race"? no .. you said "race doesn't exist. Mexicans are a nationality mostly comprised of 2 races indigenous peoples and caucasians that mostly originated in Spain.

This still has nothing to do with the OP which I still submit is classist and not racist at all.

Edit ---- I do note that you didn't address that you are using a commercial website and one quote from it that supports your argument but lacks context (when was it said? In what context etc ...) to support your concept that it is a racial skin-tone issue between Central Thais and Isaan/Laos which totally ignores that the farming class from all of Thailand tends to have the same skin-tones etc (though it does get darker in the South.) It must have taken quite a bit of googling to find support for your argument and having it end up on a website from a resort in Isaan doesn't add much credibility to it, particularly when the argument can be significantly mitigated by other parts of the same article.

Edited February 26, 2011 by jdinasia

[Moonrakers]

It does indeed sound like many people are using their pride of being non PC to rationalize all kinds of racism.

You what?

So far in this thread JT, you have:

A) Denied that different races even exist. Something that all members can see for their self and something itself has recognised and categorised by science.

Attempted to redefine the very definition of racism by claim that anybody who can merely recognise race (which, according to you doesn't exist anyway), is racist. A racist, Jingthing, is somebody who considers one race (which doesn't even exist), to be superior to other races (which don't exist either). Regardless of how much you might want to redefine the very meaning of the word, it will be staying as it is.

C) You are now saying that people who don't agree with PC nonsense are also a racist!!: Thinking that not being able to call a blackboard is not racist, it's objecting to the absurd. Thinking that not being able to sing bah bah black sheep at school is also not racist, it's noticing that some things in life are just plain ridiculous. I could go on.

You really should be more mindful of how you go about branding all and sundry a racist, because some people really might take exception to it.

You have lost this argument miserably, you have made the most ridiculous of claims and to be frank you have made quite a fool of yourself and made yourself a bit of a laughing stock. Go back through this thread, people are just laughing at you.

Perhaps you should just leave it now.

Happy Saturday

Edited February 26, 2011 by Moonrakers

[Jingthing]

I stand by everything I posted and welcome anybody's objective consideration of it. I have also explained multiple times how racism can and does exist even though there is no genetic or biological basis for the concept of race.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[fletchsmile]

I thought it was quite funny how many Thais seemed to take this seriously, and think it was for real, without realising it was an ad. Speaks volumes about Thai society

Then I read this thread and realised it speaks volumes about TV too

In reverse, I can't say I'd be offended if it said reserved for dark skinned people, and had a picture of a tanning lotion bottle, and then Thai lady with dark skin and holding the product in a poster next to it. I'd probably read it, think <deleted> and then realise it was an ad

{BTW In the unlikely event anyone's wondering - I'm unfortunately not beautifully dark skinned myself }

[Jingthing]

Not really because the reality is that dark skinned people DO suffer clear patterns of discrimination in Thai society. So your proposed alternative ad would not carry any of the racist implications the ad in question does.

[fletchsmile]

Not really because the reality is that dark skinned people DO suffer clear patterns of discrimination in Thai society. So your proposed alternative ad would not carry any of the racist implications the ad in question does.

I would whole heartedly again that dark skinned people are discriminated against in Thailand.

Pause and think for a moment though about the Thais you know who use this type of product. By ethnicity I know Thais from virtually all ethnicities who use this product, eg white-skinned Chinese Thais, dark skinned Isaan Thais, light skinned Isaan Thais, darked skinned southern Thais,light skinned southern Thais, khmer, laos, etc etc... They all use the product with aspirations for whiter skin. I think it's a waste of money myself... but just because I don't buy the product it wouldn't stop me sitting down

[jdinasia]

I stand by everything I posted and welcome anybody's objective consideration of it. I have also explained multiple times how racism can and does exist even though there is no genetic or biological basis for the concept of race.

Your claim of "no basis" is an opinion. Some groups agree some disagree. However, if race doesn't exist then the term you should be using is bigotry.

To suggest that people that don't ascribe to your set (or anyone else's set) agenda is racist is plain silly.

I think you would accept NOVA as a reputable enough source ---

Does Race Exist?A proponent's perspective

by George W. Gill

Slightly over half of all biological/physical anthropologists today believe in the traditional view that human races are biologically valid and real. Furthermore, they tend to see nothing wrong in defining and naming the different populations of Homo sapiens. The other half of the biological anthropology community believes either that the traditional racial categories for humankind are arbitrary and meaningless, or that at a minimum there are better ways to look at human variation than through the "racial lens."

Are there differences in the research concentrations of these two groups of experts? Yes, most decidedly there are. As pointed out in a recent 2000 edition of a popular physical anthropology textbook, forensic anthropologists (those who do skeletal identification for law-enforcement agencies) are overwhelmingly in support of the idea of the basic biological reality of human races, and yet those who work with blood-group data, for instance, tend to reject the biological reality of racial categories.

and further down ......

The "reality of race" therefore depends more on the definition of reality than on the definition of race. If we choose to accept the system of racial taxonomy that physical anthropologists have traditionally established—major races: black, white, etc.—then one can classify human skeletons within it just as well as one can living humans. The bony traits of the nose, mouth, femur, and cranium are just as revealing to a good osteologist as skin color, hair form, nose form, and lips to the perceptive observer of living humanity. I have been able to prove to myself over the years, in actual legal cases, that I am moreaccurate at assessing race from skeletal remains than from looking at living people standing before me. So those of us in forensic anthropology know that the skeleton reflects race, whether "real" or not, just as well if not better than superficial soft tissue does. The idea that race is "only skin deep" is simply not true, as any experienced forensic anthropologist will affirm.

Position on race

Where I stand today in the "great race debate" after a decade and a half of pertinent skeletal research is clearly more on the side of the reality of race than on the "race denial" side. Yet I do see why many other physical anthropologists are able to ignore or deny the race concept. Blood-factor analysis, for instance, shows many traits that cut across racial boundaries in a purely clinal fashion with very few if any "breaks" along racial boundaries. (A cline is a gradient of change, such as from people with a high frequency of blue eyes, as in Scandinavia, to people with a high frequency of brown eyes, as in Africa.) <br clear="all">

yet the most important point in this article is found at the end .......

A human-variation course with another perspective would probably have accomplished the same for this student if he had ever noticed it. The truth is, innocuous contemporary human-variation classes with their politically correct titles and course descriptions do not attract the attention of minorities or those other students who could most benefit. Furthermore, the politically correct "race denial" perspective in society as a whole suppresses dialogue, allowing ignorance to replace knowledge and suspicion to replace familiarity. This encourages ethnocentrism and racism more than it discourages it.it

edit to add link ..... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/gill.html

Edited February 26, 2011 by jdinasia

[StreetCowboy]

...

I think you would accept NOVA as a reputable enough source ---

Does Race Exist?A proponent's perspective

by George W. Gill

Slightly over half of all biological/physical anthropologists today believe in the traditional view that human races are biologically valid and real. Furthermore, they tend to see nothing wrong in defining and naming the different populations of Homo sapiens. The other half of the biological anthropology community believes either that the traditional racial categories for humankind are arbitrary and meaningless, or that at a minimum there are better ways to look at human variation than through the "racial lens."

Are there differences in the research concentrations of these two groups of experts? Yes, most decidedly there are. As pointed out in a recent 2000 edition of a popular physical anthropology textbook, forensic anthropologists (those who do skeletal identification for law-enforcement agencies) are overwhelmingly in support of the idea of the basic biological reality of human races, and yet those who work with blood-group data, for instance, tend to reject the biological reality of racial categories.

and further down ......

The "reality of race" therefore depends more on the definition of reality than on the definition of race. If we choose to accept the system of racial taxonomy that physical anthropologists have traditionally established—major races: black, white, etc.—then one can classify human skeletons within it just as well as one can living humans. The bony traits of the nose, mouth, femur, and cranium are just as revealing to a good osteologist as skin color, hair form, nose form, and lips to the perceptive observer of living humanity. I have been able to prove to myself over the years, in actual legal cases, that I am moreaccurate at assessing race from skeletal remains than from looking at living people standing before me. So those of us in forensic anthropology know that the skeleton reflects race, whether "real" or not, just as well if not better than superficial soft tissue does. The idea that race is "only skin deep" is simply not true, as any experienced forensic anthropologist will affirm.

Position on race

Where I stand today in the "great race debate" after a decade and a half of pertinent skeletal research is clearly more on the side of the reality of race than on the "race denial" side. Yet I do see why many other physical anthropologists are able to ignore or deny the race concept. Blood-factor analysis, for instance, shows many traits that cut across racial boundaries in a purely clinal fashion with very few if any "breaks" along racial boundaries. (A cline is a gradient of change, such as from people with a high frequency of blue eyes, as in Scandinavia, to people with a high frequency of brown eyes, as in Africa.) <br clear="all">

yet the most important point in this article is found at the end .......

A human-variation course with another perspective would probably have accomplished the same for this student if he had ever noticed it. The truth is, innocuous contemporary human-variation classes with their politically correct titles and course descriptions do not attract the attention of minorities or those other students who could most benefit. Furthermore, the politically correct "race denial" perspective in society as a whole suppresses dialogue, allowing ignorance to replace knowledge and suspicion to replace familiarity. This encourages ethnocentrism and racism more than it discourages it.it

edit to add link ..... http://www.pbs.org/w...first/gill.html

I just highlighted the too (two most) entertaining phrases in the discourse. It is a long time since anyone has said anything so funny in this thread.

WHo cares what anthropologists believe - its supposed to be a science, and they're supposed to present present hypotheses, evidence and conclusions. Otherwise its anthropotheism.

How can we have minorities when we have no race?

Or are darkies still a minority even though there is no race? The darkest 49%? Is that before or after tanning and skin whitening creams?

I'm glad someone has seen fit to bring humourous quotations into the argument; but still - irrelevant to the use of whitening creams to make you look like you have more money than sense; nor the apsiration-based advertising for said products. Possibly relevant to the implicit reference to 1950s USA in the advert, but that's an obscure link.

I suppose without race, there is no miscegenation, so that's another of my hobbies gone...

SC