Crackdown On Backpack Teachers

[Ijustwannateach]

A hint to the grammar-police types:

Many of those on this thread posting as "teachers" who seem dyslexic and/or illiterate are probably trolls trying to stir things up and get attention. We haven't seen them posting over in the Teacher's Room very much.

"Steven"

Edited September 12, 2005 by Ijustwannateach

[MatTheQS]

"The team will look into the curriculum and tuition fees to see if they're too tough on Thai students, because we have heard from parents that the foreign teachers are mostly tourists from Europe, Australia and Asian countries," Vicharn said.

Will employing professional teachers in leiu of backpackers make it any easier to learn english?

Hate to think how much school fees will increase!

[brownsugar]

Thailand has Asian neighbours that speak english. It would be cheaper to recruit a Indian, Malaysian, Filipino, Singaporean with a bachelor degree in teaching English.

The ministry of Education here could coordinate with western uni's training english teachers, could send their students to do the practical teaching course component here. Many students would jump at the chance to come over for a semester to get course credits & have a holiday, plus you would not have to pay the students.

[Nutcracker]

Interesting exchange about teachers and their qualifications which prompts me to add a few comments based on recent experiences of a friend from China who has all the proper educational qualifications and work experience. She was recruited as a Mandarin teacher at one of BKK's new private schools and put on probation for 3 months. Conditions were good with housing allowance etc. The Head was an English guy (Art Department??) who went out of his way to make sure she settled in and had all the teaching aids she needed. Unfortunately, he was only trying to get into her knickers and when she turned him down, things started to go wrong. Her probation was extended on trumped up reasons. Complaints were manufactured about her dress code and standard of English etc etc. She resigned and the school and Thailand lost the opportunity to benefit from lessons delivered by a professional teacher proficient in English and of course her native tongue.

[bajajvivek]

Seems like everybody is more interested in the kind of money the teachers get rather than the kind of education which Thai students need. Don't you think that the students will learn better if they are taught by native Thais?? Some teachers are from UK, some from US, some from Australia and some from some other country, all having completely different accents!! How do one expects to learn with such a confusing environment?

Wouldn't it me more appropriate to send some qualified Thai teachers to get some advance Training and experience of language and teaching in US/UK or whatever country the government thinks?

How many English teachers can speak or even know basic communication in Thai? And how do they (non Thai speaking teachers) expect to teach students English? Somebody gave the example of Indians/Phillipinos/Africans having better English, the difference is that instead of teaching the accent they emphasised on teaching the language itself. Accent can be corrected once you know the language. And there are so many accents in English these days that its no more relevant.

Lastly, these are my personal suggestions/comments and I am not a teacher.

(I ran this text through spell check and did't find any mistakes. I am not a native English speaker.)

[robenroute]

  I don't usually bother with replying to much that I see and read in here but geez people. "A top rate teacher will draw 65,000 in Canada so how can they expect someone to work here for 25,000 thb?" You obviously don't teach Economics or your math just sucks, I'm not sure which. Let's start with something simple for you: ever buy a pack of cigarettes in Canada? "No decent teacher would work for 30,000thb unless they just loved living here." DUH! If you DON'T love living here, why are you here?!? If your respective counties were so great then why did you leave? Sit back and chew on that for a minute before responding. Yes, this country, like so many others, has it's issues but if you're not trying to be part of the solution then......well, you should know how that ends.  How much did whining and crying help where you left? Yes, there are poorly qualified teachers here and everywhere else for that matter. "A random check revealed 95 schools with poorly qualified teachers in BKK alone." Let's see, there are what, 5,000-8,000 schools in BKK alone. The "random check" was 95 out of how many checked? Where's the full report? This kind of drivel is why I don't turn on BBC or FOX news. I keep expecting them to hire "Sideshow Bob" to boost ratings because their reporting is, well, crap. "70,000thb + health + housing + benifits + visa + wp + preprepared lesson plans is what a truely professional teacher would demand." Gimme a break! Would you like them to follow to the toilet and wipe your butt or shake your 'dew drops' off when you finish or can you handle that much. Write your own d#@n lesson plans. Your mind and your command of the English language is why they hired you. I work for one of the top schools in Thailand but I had to rewrite the entire computer curriculum before teaching it. They were still using Pascal as an up to date programming language. Any IT people out there will know what I mean by this. Ok, I'm geting alittle long winded here. All I'm saying people is, take a bite of reality, calculate the percentages of income kept in your pockets, (not what it's worth 'back home') go out side and look back at the house you couldn't afford before and just smile and relax a bit. Sermon over, flame if you must.  ps. I don't own a backpack 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Listen to this dude! He speaks reason, I personally know qualified english teachers (who learnt in england the trade) who are on 40000 baht a month! More than enough to comfortably live in BKK!

However I also know a lot of people who allege themselves to be 'teachers' who choose to drift into the 'teaching' and get the job even now with all the supposed TEFL regs in place!

The teachers in question knew hardly any thai! One could hardly even count in thai! But in the Issan provinces.. no problem! They happily chucked her 18000 baht a month! She was happy on s**te wages cause she (and no doubt others) are so desperate to stay in thailand) has nowhere else to go! The system needs addressing!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but after reading this I felt the urge to jot down a few lines:

If you want to compare things here with things back home, please realize that an average teacher (no, not talking about top schools that obviously pay more) can afford an average house/flat/accommodation, can afford a car and possibly a few other "luxury" items. Most English teachers here in Bangkok are paid an above average wage (to local standards) and still aren't able to afford proper housing (sorry, but I can't call a 1-bedroom flat proper housing), or a car for that matter. Of course, the average Thai person lives with his or her whole family in one house, which reduces the costs of living drastically, but our (westerners') situation is slightly different:

- We don't have our family here (brothers, sisters, parents, all chipping in),

- We are not allowed to buy property (okay, a flat would be possible, but a mortgage would, then again, be out of the proverbial question),

- We don't "enjoy" any social benefits,

- We can't count on any social security,

- etc.

So, 40,000 Baht? Fair enough, it's "decent" money, but comparable to teachers' positions back home? No, most certainly not. 40,000 is enough if you're here for a limited number of months (years, even), living alone and just having a good time. If you would like to make this place your new home and want to have a decent job and take care of your family in a decent way, I can't possibly see how a person could live on that and support a family (children, school) at the same time.

Edited September 12, 2005 by robenroute

[cutter007]

I think that 70,000 is not to much to expect.

All of my teachers in the USA could afford cars, could a teacher on 35,000 baht

a month afford a car?

Why should quality teachers have to take a big cut in there standard of living

to teach here.

I couldn't do what a lot of you people do.

The first couple of years I lived in Thailand, I made a lot less, than my american salary, but knowing soon that I would make a lot more, now I make more than my highest paid american job. And I am not adjusting for cost of living.

I don't know about Europe or Australia, but Thailand isn't that much cheaper than the USA.

Its just you have the ability to buy a bunch of low quality stuff.

More expensive in Thailand - good quality cloths, cars.

About the same price in Thailand as USA - gas, housing.

Sure some things are a lot cheaper, like street food, but that is because we don't have it in America, because it is too dangerous, as far as health concerns go.

And housing isn't that much cheaper, in fact I just finished building a house, it is close to Western standards, but still falls short in many respects, it cost me over 12 million. And that is about the price it would cost in the USA for a similiar house.

Where is this massive adjustment for cost of living everyone is talking about?

Basic point, if Thai parents don't want to pay for quality teachers, they won't get them.

In the end it is the schools that are pocketing most of the money.

I went to one of the top 10 business universities in America, and my tuition was less than International School of Bangkok. And that is a high school.

[Ijustwannateach]

The point about payment is more pertinent to this thread. The government is (apparently) concerned about the on-paper qualifications of applicants; however, qualified (from the point of view of actual, licensed-on-paper, experienced, educationally-educated and certified) applicants do not typically compete in a local pool of labour. They compete in an international pool, where there are standards both in salary and in benefits. To say that Thailand does not typically offer these standards is a gross understatement.

If Thailand insisted that all those doing teaching of any kind were to have the above qualifications, it would immediately lose 99% of its foreign teachers and the schools and EP programs would be empty.

Assuming this is not an option (though you never know, this country has a way of shooting itself in the foot) a happier medium would be to find a way to squeeze out those who are INCOMPETENT and/or UNDEREDUCATED and/or INEXPERIENCED, and to keep in those who are COMPETENT, EDUCATED, and EXPERIENCED.

At a guess, I'd say the current ratio of turkeys to good teachers is probably 60 to 40 or so.

Various ways of doing this weeding have been suggested, including the degree check. However, the relevant ministries have not even shown themselves able to keep up the degree checking with most of the REAL, LEGAL, LICENSED and WORK-PERMITTED teachers in the Kingdom, much less to find all those who are working illegally. They don't have the staff, the skills, or the resources. Therefore it is likely that this will simply result in things being a bit tighter at the LEGAL places, while ironically the people working off the radar will be able to continue as before.

If Thailand as a political entity cared about the education it gives most of its children, it would show. We farang probably care more, on average.

"Steven"

[NextStationBangkok]

Thailand has Asian neighbours that speak english. It would be cheaper to recruit a Indian, Malaysian, Filipino, Singaporean with a bachelor degree in teaching English.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello this is own problem of stpid Thai people. They strongly believe only a White Skin Farang can teach English, what ever may be the their qualification. Do you think they will hire Asians though they are over qualified for teaching ? Never. Until they change this mentality even after 200 years, still have to look for backpackers to teach English.

[NextStationBangkok]

This is slightly off topic, but I want to make a point here too.

Whilst reading these posts, I have become so annoyed, then ashamed at the quality of English here.

Even those large posts with the big words sound impressive, but there are mistakes there too.

No wonder English is dying; the native speakers cannot even write it correctly.

I urge every one of you to go back and read your posts.

It is embarrassing, both for the language and for yourselves.

This is directed at the people who's natural language IS English and even more so for the people that call themselves teachers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

RJJ correctly observed. When i said this to my native English speaking friends, they never agreed. Whom do you think can read and write correctly apart from native English speakers ?. I mean which nationality ?

[makavelithedon]

It amazes me how many people comment on this topic in general who don't and never have taught yet they know all the answers.

Firstly, the general consesus is yeh put the wages up to 70,000 baht and all the teachers from every native country of English will come here. Rubbish. There maybe a little improvement in numbers but there are a lot of higher developed nations around Asia and the middle East that already pay good salaries and still cannot get anywhere near the teachers they need, simply because there aren't enough in the world with the set criteria. Period.

Hong Kong went down this route a few years ago and pay very high salaries (even considering the increased overall standard of living expenses) and have relaxed the standards because they CANNOT find anywhere near the numbers of teachers with this that and the other. I know for a fact there are a huge number of positions now they haven't filled.

Those with a couple of years experience teaching here and care about what they do, quickly realize that just because someone was a teacher 'back home' it doesn't make them qualified to necessarily be successful in teaching a language the kids don't understand here. It IS totally totally different than communicating with a bunch of 6 year olds where they all understand every word you say. So that leaves those teachers who are TEFL degree qualified seeing you all want the professionals, proper highly qualified teachers etc etc. Well, spread those around Asia and you could count the number available for Thailand on two hands!

As for the original point that seems to have been lost, it is a fair where Parents are paying huge sums in many cases that they get what they are paying for. But who's fault is that? The teachers who takes the job? NO. The school.

I know now of a case at an expensive Billingual school where a friend didn't even have an interview, they just asked where he was from and gave him the job. Luckily, he is an experienced guy, here long term, half decent and actually cares about the kids. But how about all those who don't? There parents should have there opinions heard and people who are short-listed should at the very least be experienced in a similar environment and have taken the 6 week 120 hour class based TEFL training. At present even this appears beyond most schools to stipulate even this.

On the flip-side I know guys now trying there best at schools where the teachers don't want them, the kids see it as a playtime excursion every week and run riot, where the school couldn't care less as long as they turn up, and they go home every week demoralized and nursing two flat tyres that the kids have seen to yet again. But hey, it's still the 'not qualified at home' teachers fault right?

Trying to be positive I think the following measures should be introduced to improve standards- bearing in mind the realisms of the situation, if English is that much of a central educational objective to Thais:

The criteria stipulating degrees should not be a necessity. It rules far too many people out who are needed. And tell me again what value an enginering BA has to effective teaching of a 7 year old?

Remember the 10,000 extra teachers they wanted here? Are they going to get them currently? Please..................... The current stipulation is an abject failure. What is need is pragmatic training and viewpoint to dealing with this.

Its's far from everything but will certainly equip people with genuine aspirations here to make a positive impact.

A person who has studied and passed at a merit or above (or whatever equivalent) to the age of 18 will qualify.

The government -who licence (via the ministry of education) the TEFL training schools should work with all to implement a full-time 3 month training programme which includes 6 weeks of child based learning practices (something at present which involves about 4 hours )of the 120 hour course. Most of the jobs here are teaching children and this is almost totally overlooked in the current training programmes which is scandalous.

Having to keep yourself here for 3 months, and pay the fees which will be at least double the current ones, will weed out nearly all the online certified 'travellers' that are just doing it whilst saving up enough for the next country hop.

Those schools who do not wish to conform should have their certificate revoked. This will also weed out many of the schools running these courses for nothing more than pure profit and exploitation of all.

Pass rate should be 70% and include 25 hours of Government school teaching practice for all candidates. A fail would mean a re-sit which would be free- joining the next intake. If your serious you'll make sure you work hard at it. At present you barely have to turn up to get a pass.

Even those teachers at home should have to take a reduced length course covering TEFL principles. The difference being that they can do so within the first year of teaching here (as stipulated in HK).

A minimum salary of 40.000 baht plus healthcare and free workpermit should be included as basic law of employment. As others have said, this is a decent wage for those who don't think it should have a 20 night a month drinking allowance included.

Even basics- like every student should have relevant text book and student work book which coincides with government standards is overlooked at many schools. And need to be introduced into statute here if its to be followed!!

I have seen the bad schools and one of the few good ones- where kids leave actually highly competent in the language. Funny enough not one Foreign teacher there has an MA, TEFL degree or is a 'back home' teacher! The difference is they have a decent structure where all the kids are taught through a fun book series, activities and songs, a motivated competent class room assistant is provided and consults every day with the teacher-who has 1 year minimum experience before joining the school. And pay is an average 5000 baht above the norm.

The kids get a minimum 3 hours with the foreign native speaker a week (classes are still 40+) along with 4 hours with the Thai teacher. It works, they are successful and they achieive what everyone wants.

I don't know all the answers, successes or failures but this problem needs looking at pragmatically with the realisms of the modrn world and the limitations in available people. Not with pie in the sky answers born from ignorance-positive or not. I.e. just check everyone isn't a backpacker, double the wages, has a degree and all will miraculoulsy be honkeydorey.

Sadly what I expect will happen is the 'Farang teachers' will get all the blame (this has obviously been coming ever since the report recently listing Thailand's English failings) requirements will be raised (in non-relevant areas) and the schools will go on as before with the same results.

Mak

Oh and 1000 apologies for the pedantic, I haven't used spell check. This is a forum for conveying positive ideas not slips on the keyboard.

[bajajvivek]

Oh and 1000 apologies for the pedantic, I haven't used spell check. This is a forum for conveying positive ideas not slips on the keyboard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Mak

When I wrote that I ran the text through spell check, my intension was just to convey that its not necessary that only the native speakers are good in English. And the fact that I am not a teacher was intended to convey that even if someone is not a teacher, he can be good in a subject.

no offences

Vivek

[NextStationBangkok]

Seems like everybody is more interested in the kind of money the teachers get rather than the kind of education which Thai students need. Don't you think that the students will learn better if they are taught by native Thais?? Some teachers are from UK, some from US, some from Australia and some from some other country, all having completely different accents!! How do one expects to learn with such a confusing environment?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you think a Thai is interested in learning English from another Thai ? This is fundamental problem in this country.

Wouldn't it me more appropriate to send some qualified Thai teachers to get some advance Training and experience of language and teaching in US/UK or whatever country the government thinks?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you think they will come back after training ? Even after comming back will they work as Teachers ?

How many English teachers can speak or even know basic communication in Thai? And how do they (non Thai speaking teachers) expect to teach students English? Somebody gave the example of Indians/Phillipinos/Africans having better English, the difference is that instead of teaching the accent they emphasised on teaching the language itself. Accent can be corrected once you know the language. And there are so many accents in English these days that its no more relevant.

Lastly, these are my personal suggestions/comments and I am not a teacher.

(I ran this text through spell check and did't find any mistakes. I am not a native English speaker.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In fact is there is an International school run by Indians in Bangkok. The reason Thai's dont want to send their children to this school i have heared

1. The teachers are Indians, thinking that the children won't learn American accent which Thai's think more essential for the students to go to US to study.

2. The fee is very low, if they send their children here their status is questionable in the society.

Whom do you blame Thais ? Backpakers ?

There are some wise parents who send their children to study in India(Bangalore & Kerala). The reason they told me is.

1. The syllabus is good, tough and compititive for global standards.

2. Children automatically speak English because no Thais around.

2. They don't hang around shopping malls with girls.

3. If they find a right agent, the fees is compartively cheap like with in 100,000 a student can complete 1 year education (Air, Food, Accomodation, School fees included).

Where as in Bangkok International schools run by American/British/Australian/Canadian , the minimum fees is US$6000 for a Primary.

[mushepea]

*** a note for the english police moaning about grammar, never use capitals in emails ok? of coure english starts with a cap, names too!!! i dont write in class like what i do ere!!!LOL***

Teaching in thailand is a joke. there is no education, all you end up doing is 'child wrangling' and babysitting unruly students. ive done 2 years and i must say i really do not want to go back to it, the stress is too much for the low wages. 60 in a class, no resources, no discipline and bad feeling from half the thai teachers. i think the bad feeling is in part because their (only some, not by any means all) english is so bad, but will never ask for help fom a farang because they'd loose face -at least they think that, but farrangs respect ppl trying to learn. there should be training for the english teachers, most are forced to do it, even though its not their subject.

also there is no will to learn from either the establishment or the students/parents. the upper echelons of hi-so thai society like things as they are-uneducated ppl can not change the status quo and heaven forbid get a decent wage out of the huge profits some make. or suspect cirtain politicians of major corruption/graft which is indemic here. if the politicians blame farrangs they are believed and the focus is shifted away from their own activities. this corruption begins at school. everyone who ever taught here will know that thais are telepathic, every incorrect answer appears on all 60 exam answer sheets!!! (they dont even know to copy from the smart kids!!!) copying is the norm here and if dad has money and influence so will the child -who needs to learn? (especially from a farrang).

add to this the very low wages and you get high turnover of teachers, there are not enough here and highly quialified teachers will go elsewhere for better salary/conditions and more respect. thats why you get poorly qualified teachers. myself i have a bsc and msc in engineering/software. the only work i can get is teaching. i am a much better engineer and from my experience they need those here as much as teachers too as there is no quality control as no one ever complains or returns crap, substandard goods, which goes back to education/empowerment of the ppl.

i have some wonderful friends from my last teaching post. they were dedicated and asked me lots of questions about grammar/meanings of phrases, but they too would dispair at the behaviour of their students so its not just the forign teachers that get all the grief.

until some of these issues are tackled you wont find me in the classroom until the very last resort, i would rather starve (and i nearly am)!

as for the issue of money, some of the agencies ive worked for are the greediest ppl ive ever met, taking half the amount charged to the schools and giving the teachers a poor salary. they did not give a monkeys about the education of the kids, just the biottom line -CASH! i was left with no visa and 6000B overstay fine as they cancelled my work permit early because i refused to sign new contract where they took all the holiday pay away, i needed a pay rise not a pay cut!

this is just my own experience and thoughts on this subject so dont get angry, work for change! my spelling leaves a lot to be desired i know, but you can't touch me at maths/physics/IT!!

all the best,

mushypea bkk.

Edited September 12, 2005 by mushepea

[pausanius]

Don't you think that the students will learn better if they are taught by native Thais??

Erm...no.

I really think some of the non teachers here need a better understanding of the system here before commenting.

Except at international schools and bilingual programmes, most Thai high school students receive something like 3 or 4 hours of tuition in English a week.

At a large number of schools throughout Thailand, none of this is delivered by native speakers. Few students receive more than one hour per week from a foreign teacher.

Thai English teachers still deliver the overwhelming majority of English instruction in this country. And they don't do it well. Last year, over 75% of Thai English teachers failed rudimentary English tests. The solution was announced to send hundreds of the "best" on TEFL courses, some of them overseas. I heard little more of this since then.

So while the newspaper article that prompted this thread does refer to bilingual schools, it does reek of scapegoating to me, coming so close on the heels of the revelation that Thais performed worse than Cambodians and Laos on TOEFL testing and the subsequent "brainstorming" session held a wek or so ago...

There needs to be an appreciation that foreign teachers are really responsible for a relatively small proportion of English teaching.

Having said that, I think as long as the schools are upfront about who their teachers and their prices reflect the qualification of teachers, what the ######! Let the backpackers stay.

It is really only a prblem if either the school encourages backpackers to obtain fraudulent documents (more common place than you might imagine) or the teachers themselves misrepresent qualifications.

Otherwise, let market supply and demand sort out the place of backpackers in English instruction...

Edited September 12, 2005 by pausanius

[mcfester]

I know 2 teachers in BKK, criminals on the run from UK, one told the school he had a degree but he hasn't, they never asked to see it, the other told the truth that he finished school at 16, still got the job.

Seems to me that the only thing these schools are interested in is the money.

[Laulen]

Once again, confusion reigns about the competencies of teachers of English in Thailand.

The ONLY real test is for a professionally conducted observation of a lesson, by a respected and qualified English language teacher. Qualifications such as the Trinity or the Cambridge Teaching qualifications should be the benchmark quality of competence.

Other teaching qualifications should be viewed with suspicion, mainly because they are just money-making 'opportunities' rather than academically-based and principle-led curricula.

Posssession of a degree-level qualification is NO measure whatsoever of an individual's ability to teach, as some previous posters have pointed out. They would much rather be engaging in a job in engineering or whatever.

Finally, knowledge of the local language of the place in which you are teaching is useful ONLY where everyone speaks the same language. Far better to have a linguistic understanding of the particular students' own first language, such as how they express similar ideas of time, number, and more pronunciation errors. Knowing this will help you to appreciate the particular difficulties of the very people you are trying to help communicate in English.

As for 'rude' Thai teachers, that has never been my experience. Take an interest in them, and they will return the compliment. Respect them and they will do likewise. If all else fails, just smile!

Laulen

[Scott]

One thing that is really sad is the way this whole story was reported. It is a slam on backpackers--like they are less than others. This type of arrogance on the part of the gov't is unnessary. It's about qualifications/certification/experience in teaching.

Backpackers have done nothing to damage the education system. Those that hire unqualified people--and I use unqualified to mean people who do not meet some basic requirement set by the Ministry of Education--are to blame.

A few months back, either Time or Newsweek magazine had an article that stated that 2/3 of the people who speak/use English on a regular basis are non-native speakers. English no longer "belongs" to a select few Western countries. Many of the people from these countries are very well qualified to teach and should be permitted to do so.

[Maestro]

Hello this is own problem of stpid Thai people. They strongly believe only a White Skin Farang can teach English, what ever may be the their qualification. Do you think they will hire Asians though they are over qualified for teaching ? Never. Until they change this mentality even after 200 years, still have to look for backpackers to teach English. 

NextStationBangkok, I hope you won’t mind my asking but I am curious to know if you are a teacher of English language in Thailand.

[jrincon17]

Yeah a great nice move by the government. I hope that this practice will eliminate the teachers with fake degrees and the real teachers will come to serve the education community.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The real Teachers are making real money in their home country's

[capt_canada42]

Yeah a great nice move by the government. I hope that this practice will eliminate the teachers with fake degrees and the real teachers will come to serve the education community- Ajarnmark

Yeah, and I'm sure there will be a steady stream of legally qualified (Degree & TEFL) teachers, just queuing up to work for £100 a week in poor conditions, with long hours & little or no help from the Thai staff in a country where they have a shortage of teachers as it is. 

That'll show 'em 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very true

[capt_canada42]

I know 2 teachers in BKK, criminals on the run from UK, one told the school he had a degree but he hasn't, they never asked to see it, the other told the truth that he finished school at 16, still got the job.

Seems to me that the only thing these schools are interested in is the money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even crims have a brain and can teach and deserve another chance, isn't that why most of you people are here for another chance!

[RDN]

A hint to the grammar-police types:

Many of those on this thread posting as "teachers" who seem dyslexic and/or illiterate are probably trolls trying to stir things up and get attention.  We haven't seen them posting over in the Teacher's Room very much.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point, Steven.

But the best thing about this whole subject is.... it must really piss off the French.

[englishoak]

Bottom line is, if you pay peanuts you get monkey's. ( no offence to you teachers who are not )

1 TEFL or similar qualification should be manditory for quality.

2 Don't understand the need for degree to teach unless it's an ENGLISH degree.

3 Pay for that privilage, the hi'so's are so tight that they expect it at the local rate,why??

4 Whats the problem with poorer quality teachers in rural areas, what real use will english be.

5 Would'nt Mandarin or other dialect be more useful in the future than english?

6 Som nam na when you have a system that passes the students regardless of the effort they put in. Fail them and the students who try will have value for money. Plus mabe the thought of losing face will make them at least try.

7 English pronounciation is the most obvious problem in Thailand, it's apalling given that they are taught at school. Thai English teachers I have met are some of the worst

8 Leave the backpackers alone or it will cause serious problems in staffing.

9 English at school seems to be like a status symbol but rarely valued in practice. A little bit like sports in the UK, just fillling up space on the timetable.

10 Nothing will change though TIT

[joe beets]

I believe the retention of the Thai script is a contributing factor in holding back literacy - also, how many times have you observed a Thai child reading an english text ?  Africa and India are generally way ahead in the ability to speak reasonable  english.  I understand that the monks have over the years resisted any changes to

the present system, this challenge has meant that the government of the time has been unable (or unwilling) to bite on the bullet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you seriously suggesting that Thailand should convert to using the Roman alphabet??

There are already enough problems teaching that alphabet to those who relative few who want to learn English - imagine the chaos having to teach it to all native Thais so they can read their own language.

You have thought this through at all!

Patrick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not as ridiculous as it sounds. Drastic for sure, but not stupid.

It was done successfully in Turkey and Poland. In the case of Turkey it was part of a push to modernise the country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well played and quite correct.

The original comment that "retention of the Thai script is a contributing factor in holding back literacy" made me wonder. Certainly Thais on average seem to manage with literacy in Thai. Well, cheap comic books anyway.

Did the commenter mean to say that the use of phonetic spelling in Thai characters to teach English is the problem? I would wholeheartedly agree with that.

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Sorry, this is getting off topic, but I just had to reply. Yes the use of Thai characters completely adds to the problem of Thai pronunciation. First, a little closer to home, this method of using roman characters has been completely implemented in Vietnam (and Vietnamese has more tones than Thai) ... the French abolished their writing (which I believe to be mainly Chinese, but I could be very wrong about that) and now they have a more english looking vocab. The english in Vietnam is better than it is here ... just look at these Vietnamese kids selling flowers in BKK. I am sure there are other factors as well, but the Thai script is surely one of them.

Furthermore, let's move down south to Malaysia. They have taken the roman character set and even perfected it a bit. Words are spelled exactly like they are pronounced, like Spanish. I can read every word on every sign, and everyone will understand what I am saying. Again, look at the quality of English in that country, bordering Thailand.

Further down the OT rabbit hole - I fully agree, and would go as far as to say that Malay/Bahasa Indonesia are the most sensible languages I've ever run across - what-you-see-is-what-you-say, simple consistent grammar rules, etc. I do think their having been colonized by Europeans, though, has something to do with their decisions to Romanize their alphabets, as well as Malaysia's relatively vastly greater fluency in English (vis-a-vis Thailand).

Have you ever said words like "computer" or "copy" to a Thai, and they don't seem to understand, even though they usually use the same words in Thai?  This has to do with the way they use Thai script to spell the english words.  This reinforces the use of tones and very poor proper english pronunciation.

Now here I must disagree - slightly. Agreed, Thai language transliterations of English words work about as well as Romanized transliterations of Thai, i.e., not very. We are all lazy listeners to some extent, but it does seem that Thais are well above average. If something is not pronounced exactly the way it is expected to be heard, it is not understood. Nevertheless, just as the tone system in Thai is a bear to master for those of us who claim not to have any such thing, we do have something equally baffling to trip up Thai English speakers. We use stress clues more than we like to let on. (When the MRT was having its spate of mechanical difficulties and found itself shut down, the announcements on the BTS as they approached interchange stations was changed, and it began, "Dear pas-SEN-gers,.." with the stress on the second syllable. It took me several listenings to understand just what the he11 she was saying.) We have far more multi-syllabic words in English that they do in Thai, and much of this "stress and intonation" stuff simply is not taught. (There is a tone-marking system in Thai which could compensate for this shortcoming, but they - whoever "they" are - have chosen not to go this route.)

Seems like everybody is more interested in the kind of money the teachers get rather than the kind of education which Thai students need. Don't you think that the students will learn better if they are taught by native Thais?? Some teachers are from UK, some from US, some from Australia and some from some other country, all having completely different accents!! How do one expects to learn with such a confusing environment?

I haven't run across many Thais who can hear the various accents of English all that well. Students I've had for years still think I come from the UK. (US)

Wouldn't it me more appropriate to send some qualified Thai teachers to get some advance Training and experience of language and teaching in US/UK or whatever country the government thinks?

Brilliant! Who's going to pay for it?

How many English teachers can speak or even know basic communication in Thai? And how do they (non Thai speaking teachers) expect to teach students English?

As you say, you are not a teacher, but use of L1 (the learner's native language) in the EFL classroom is almost universally frowned upon in the EFL world. Understanding how the syntax of L1 works, or tuning in to the pronunciation difficulties as they relate to English are indeed valuable things to know, as they can clue the teacher in on where more time and effort may need to be spent.

Fascinating discussion here. Sorry for my added wind.

jb

[NextStationBangkok]

Hello this is own problem of stpid Thai people. They strongly believe only a White Skin Farang can teach English, what ever may be the their qualification. Do you think they will hire Asians though they are over qualified for teaching ? Never. Until they change this mentality even after 200 years, still have to look for backpackers to teach English. 

NextStationBangkok, I hope you won’t mind my asking but I am curious to know if you are a teacher of English language in Thailand.

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Maestro sorry I am not a teacher, but an expat working as a computer programmer. But, i am an observer and more interested in Education systems around world. You believe or not have been thought (Science/ Mathematics /History/Geography) in my own language (Not English) up to 16 years. English I have started at my age 10 with ABC, my self and my teacher does not know grammar either, so we kept grammar apart and started reading our text books and understood what is written there. Though I have scored 45% in my English, I have scored 90 and above in my Mathematics/Science which driven me to join my Bachelors in Physics and later I did my masters in Computer Science. When I went to my Degree the medium of instruction was in English which is really a shock , in my very first semester I wrote Pistol for a Piston in Physics . Then started reading and understanding English news papers on my own, also listen to English news, like that I have improved my English. Though I cannot write as Shakespeare or speak in House of Lords I can able to communicate related to my work and prepare my reports , I hope that's enough to work and earn. I am having enough confidence now how to communicate with different nationality. I am an Asian and I observe education systems here. Also I am sending my daughter to an International school. I don’t claim I am great, but would like to inform the fact.

[Ijustwannateach]

While it is the case that there are some very bright, well-educated, native-speaking fluent Thais around, you won't see them working in a government university at 6K a month. If they're teachers at all, they'll be running private schools or teaching other subjects at some of the international schools (there are some Thais at such schools, you know).

So I'd say it's a pretty fair statement to say that in the AVERAGE Thai school, the assumption that a white face is better for English conversation than a fully-trained Thai English teacher is mostly correct.

"Steven"

[NextStationBangkok]

So I'd say it's a pretty fair statement to say that in the AVERAGE Thai school, the assumption that a white face is better for English conversation than a fully-trained Thai English teacher is mostly correct.

"Steven"

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This is what the problem they are reporting. Backpackers come here teach few hours of English and go off after few years. Mainly they start with grammar with out giving a clue to the students how to read an understand English, how will the student learn? . I am not a Native English speaker, still I have so many doubts in grammar, and it does not mean I am poor communicating in English. I read Bangkok Post very well and understand, my communication in the work is English as well.

Thais first give chance or access to some English at home and society. Do you see any sign boards in English except around Banglumpoo and Sukumvit area?. Do you think they try to read if an equivalent Thai word is printed next? Obviously they have less chance reading English. The poor students do not have an access to English words how can they suddenly jump to learn grammar . Thai students should start understanding things in English from Picture dictionary first, later on start reading simple sentences, paragraphs, essays like that, for that an expensive Foreign teacher is not required. Later when they go to high they can learn Grammar properly from a Foreigner if a Thai teacher is not available. In my country though we learn and speak our mother tongue, we read sign boards, description printed on products in English. Even a shampoo you buy, they don't print anything full in English, how do Thai's learn English? Your first teacher is not in your school, it is your home, environment and your society. Education is a life time process; it will not come within 60 hours of package course.

[bluebear]

Thailand has Asian neighbours that speak english. It would be cheaper to recruit a Indian, Malaysian, Filipino, Singaporean with a bachelor degree in teaching English.

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Hello this is own problem of stpid Thai people. They strongly believe only a White Skin Farang can teach English, what ever may be the their qualification. Do you think they will hire Asians though they are over qualified for teaching ? Never. Until they change this mentality even after 200 years, still have to look for backpackers to teach English.

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If their standard of English is like yours, then I would NEVER hire them.

[bluebear]

The real Teachers are making real money in their home country's

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Hmm. Funny how I know some real teachers making real money here - 100K plus. Gives them a damm site better standard of living than at home.