Australia Cancels Child-sex Suspect's Passport

[george]

Aust cancels child-sex suspect's passport

BANGKOK: -- A former Australian policeman facing charges of sex with a teenage girl in his care has voiced anger at his government's decision last week to cancel his passport.

Christopher White, 47, said that Australian officials had also advised a court in Chiang Mai that he should not be freed on bail, because he was a risk of fleeing to Cambodia.

"I've never heard of this happening. It's only through Thai friends that I'm out [of jail on bail]," he said in Bangkok on Friday.

"I'm not going anywhere. I've done nothing [illegal].

"As far as the Australian government are concerned I'm filth.

"How would you feel if you'd been abandoned by your country?"

A note to White from the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) said the decision to cancel his passport was based "on the grounds that you are the subject of an arrest warrant issued in a foreign country in respect of a serious offence".

The move appears to have been spurred by a case two years ago involving a Brisbane man, who fled Cambodia after consular staff granted him a replacement passport. Clinton Betterridge, who was charged with raping a 14-year-old girl in Siam Reap, used the replacement passport to fly back to Brisbane in early 2003.

Police in Chiang Mai charged White late last month with having sex with a girl under the age of 13, and luring or pressuring a minor into sexual abuse. The girl, now 16, sold flowers at the Chiang Mai Night Bazaar before White took her into his care for several years.

Consular officials in Bangkok said on Friday it was important to remember the presumption of innocence until an accused is proven guilty in a court of law.

"The government treats matters relating to child sex very seriously and will follow legal proceedings in the case closely. Consular officials are providing consular assistance," a spokesman said.

White concedes he sent two videos with child pornography through the post to Australia - and that these same items were confiscated from his house in Bangkok when police arrested him on August 23. But he said the material was part of an inquiry into the availability of child pornography. He strongly denies claims by the hilltribe girl. The girl, who was pregnant but lost her child shortly after White was charged, has told police and others she had a sexual relationship with the Australian.

White claims the girl invented the story after she became pregnant. He has spent the past couple of days seeking to gather medical evidence to show that he had a vasectomy in May last year and could not have fathered a child. He also claims to have impotency problems that would have prevented him having sex with her.

Police have conducted DNA tests to try to determine if White did father the girl's baby, but the results will not be known for a couple of months.

--The Nation 2005-09-12

[LPCustom69]

Aust cancels child-sex suspect's passport

BANGKOK: -- A former Australian policeman facing charges of sex with a teenage girl in his care has voiced anger at his government's decision last week to cancel his passport.

Christopher White, 47, said that Australian officials had also advised a court in Chiang Mai that he should not be freed on bail, because he was a risk of fleeing to Cambodia.

"White claims the girl invented the story after she became pregnant. He has spent the past couple of days seeking to gather medical evidence to show that he had a vasectomy in May last year and could not have fathered a child. He also claims to have impotency problems that would have prevented him having sex with her.

If guilty, he's scum and should be treated as such. However, if he's falsely accused, he's been tarnished for life. Wierd how being impotent, and temporarily sterile may work to his advantage.

[EmptyMind]

I have said it before and I will say it again,

George .... Do you only post bad things about Thailand ? You seem to have this thing where you only post "New News" about anything that you can find in the press that is really bad against Thailand,

It would be really nice for once if these e-mails that you send to members actually contained something positive instead of the usual rubbish ! Do you only read about the bad stuff ?

I'm sure that I am not the only person who feels this but every post that you make seems to be something that you have found in the press that is a negative post for Thailand ?

Correct me if I am wrong but this does always seem to be the content of the Thai Visa e-mails .... Someone has died, Someone has been arrested, Someone killed someone, Someone stole something ?

Sorry for being cynical but does this not this happen all over the world without an e-mail claiming "Breaking News" lol, That is of course if you can find the link to the forum amidst the huge amount of adverts that you seem to include with every e-mail.

Maybe its just me but if I get a mail claiming "Breaking News" I dont really want to fight for the correct link through your endless advertising just to find yet another post that you have found in the local tabloids that gives Thailand yet another bad name ?

I guess I'm close to the ban list already

Maybe this is really the wrong place for me to post this and not the correct topic but this gets annoying when you click your link and end up here.

Apologies to anyone who has a response to this "News" My comments are totally unrelated to the content of this issue.

Edited September 11, 2005 by EmptyMind

[maprao]

Maybe its just me but if I get a mail claiming "Breaking News" I dont really want to fight for the correct link through your endless advertising just to find yet another post that you have found in the local tabloids that gives Thailand yet another bad name ?

I guess I'm close to the ban list already

Maybe this is really the wrong place for me to post this and not the correct topic but this gets annoying when you click your link and end up here.

Apologies to anyone who has a response to this "News" My comments are totally unrelated to the content of this issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If there is a program that you do not want to watch on Television then you have the "off" button

Maybe if you do not want to read the "breaking news" from Thailand the just bin the email, alternatively unsubscribe No one is forcing anybody to receive nor read these emails. You could then just use the forum to read areas that you want to look at.

I for one look forward to my breaking news from Thailand emails. I live overseas I am very busy and would not otherwise see anything from Thailand. Well done George keep them coming

[ThaiLover1]

I have said it before and I will say it again,

George .... Do you only post bad things about Thailand ? ...

...

Do you only read about the bad stuff?

...

I guess I'm close to the ban list already

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I totally concur. You have spoken truth.

The problem is not just with George and Thai Visa. All news media feels that to sell more newspapers, magazine etc, they need to include the emotional attention grabbers of violence. It is sick thinking.

News media reporting is not about integrity and reporting about people "trying to get along". It is about money - under the lame excuse of giving people what they want.

I read in an earlier posting that ThaiVisa made around US $1000 per month (in January 2005) just from the clicks on the Google Ads (around the sides of ThaiVisa web pages). That will easily pay some bills in Thailand!!!

Of course George wants more traffic and people to click his profit making ads. The more bad news the better (read: the more money his web site will make).

I hope George can break the mold and start posting all "good news". I frankly am tired of the news about sex offenders and murders. Spare me this scum of human societies.

ThaiVisa is such a great web site - and I wish we could skip the "bad news". George seems to also to be "nice" white hat kind of guy. I hope we will not be enemies after this posting. (smile)

Are there others wanting to comment, or am I and EmptyMind alone in this thinking?

[Iamemjay]

I'm only a new chum here and I value the information provided on this site.

The only VERY heavy cloud on its horizon is the storm of sex, murder etc rubbish being posted by George.

George, get a life!! If you want to wallow in all this junk all the time, spare us your fettishes. There is more to Thailand than this.

I have to spend a lot of time in my country of origin and like to keep up to date with what's hapening in my adopted country. I join those who don't want to keep being constantly barraged with the perceptions of what seems to be a very negative state of mind.

Surely there's more happening in Thailand than this!!!

[eng911]

I disagree with the criticism. I think it is important for such articles to be posted. Thailand is a unique country and I've been many times. It is also known somewhat for its unusual happenings such as policemen gunning down tourist and the Thai governments execution of drug dealers. It's also known as a haven for those seeking children for sex, also Cambodia but they get there via Thailand.

I need only point to my childhood rock star icon Gary Glitter as a prime example. These stories need to get out.

- to let people know that the police do charge people when they catch them

- to get the names of such people out in the public eye and back to their home countries

- to educate people that even in Thailand sex with a minor is not acceptable

I sat in a swank Bangkok hotel recently with my Thai wife of six year and our daughter. The table next was soon occupied by some old fart with his 14 or 15 year old toy boy. The old fart got on the phone and shared how he was having breakfast after a lovely night with a young boy he had picked up at the night market. Through listening to the conversation a little more it was revealed that the man was a teacher back home in New York. I wanted so bad to just get up and kick the living crap out of him. Only the fact that I was in a foreign country deterred me, although clearly it didn't deter him.

I enjoy my emails from Thai Visa and the one that brought me here had just a couple of other links, four to be exact, that were all subdomians of Thai Visa which help generate revenue. You guys have no idea how much work is involved in running a succesful web site. You just come here and use it. Who cares if the pages have a few relevant ads on the side. I don't even notice them any more.

Quit your complaining or go start your own forum.

Edited September 11, 2005 by eng911

[Rigger]

I. The old fart got on the phone and shared how he was having breakfast after a lovely night with a young boy he had picked up at the night market. Through listening to the conversation a little more it was revealed that the man was a teacher back home in New York. I wanted so bad to just get up and kick the living crap out of him. Only the fact that I was in a foreign country deterred me, although clearly it didn't deter him.

Quit your complaining or go start your own forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree I want to hear news good or bad if you dont like it dont read it

As for posting bad things about Thailand I think it is good as it shows what really happens here in Thailand and there should be more of it

He was a school teacher fance that

be carful what you say about teachers as they are touchy bunch on TV

[john b good]

George. Forget the crap some of your critics are contributing. Any news is good news.

On the subject of the thread it's another case of "guilt without a trial" and now the Aus gov't is gonna cancel his passport based on a yet to be concluded case in Thailand.

It is commom knowledge that the "nations finest" would have difficulty in finding the door of the room that they are in, let alone the answer to some criminal activity.

[ThaiLover1]

I disagree with the criticism. I think it is important for such articles to be posted. Thailand ... is also known somewhat for its unusual happenings such as policemen gunning down tourist and the Thai government’s execution of drug dealers.

...

I enjoy my emails from Thai Visa and the one that brought me here had just a couple of other links, four to be exact, that were all subdomians of Thai Visa which help generate revenue.

...

You guys have no idea how much work is involved in running a successful web site.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that the Google Ads are not a problem on Thai Visa - it is a good thing. I use Google Ads on my own web sites, and the income pays for my children’s education. I love Google and all that they do. A great company and I wish I had bought stock a year ago. (laugh)

I agree that running a web site is a lot of work. I run three successful web sites, so I know.

I agree that bad deeds (read: bad news) of people in Thailand need to be known, but this forum is not the place for it for such junk - in my humble opinion.

Perhaps we should take a vote, George - and let the members decide what they want? We all know "bad news" pulls more traffic, but do we really need it on Thai Visa?

[pwills]

I agree with George I wish to be informed of all aspects of life here and be informed about fellow countrymen who come here and give allexpats a bad name.

I have lived in this beautiful country for 25 years and am now retired here., just recently I took my teenage daughter out for a meal tocelebrate her birthday, she is at uni in Bankok and we live in Ratchaburi, anyway while we were eating Ioverheard a comment by Thai people eating also to the effect is'nt it terrible foreigners flaunting their sexual peccadillos in public .Keep up the good work George

[sriracha john]

I have said it before and I will say it again,

George .... Do you only post bad things about Thailand ? You seem to have this thing where you only post "New News" about anything that you can find in the press that is really bad against Thailand,

It would be really nice for once if these e-mails that you send to members actually contained something positive instead of the usual rubbish ! Do you only read about the bad stuff ?

I'm sure that I am not the only person who feels this but every post that you make seems to be something that you have found in the press that is a negative post for Thailand ?

Correct me if I am wrong but this does always seem to be the content of the Thai Visa e-mails .... Someone has died, Someone has been arrested, Someone killed someone, Someone stole something ?

Sorry for being cynical but does this not this happen all over the world without an e-mail claiming "Breaking News" lol, That is of course if you can find the link to the forum amidst the huge amount of adverts that you seem to include with every e-mail.

Maybe its just me but if I get a mail claiming "Breaking News" I dont really want to fight for the correct link through your endless advertising just to find yet another post that you have found in the local tabloids that gives Thailand yet another bad name ?

I guess I'm close to the ban list already

Maybe this is really the wrong place for me to post this and not the correct topic but this gets annoying when you click your link and end up here.

Apologies to anyone who has a response to this "News" My comments are totally unrelated to the content of this issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For someone who doesn't like to read these types of stories, why are the majority of your posts on these very same topics.... somethings amiss with your protestations...

[eng911]

You Wrote:

I agree that bad deeds (read: bad news) of people in Thailand need to be known, but this forum is not the place for it for such junk - in my humble opinion.

What section of the forum are we in now people!

Thailand Forum > Forum Home > Thailand News > Thailand News clippings

If you don't want to read news go over to another section. If you don't want the emails with the links to news then unsubscribe as detailed in every message.

Try google news and you'll see not much good news there either. It's the nature of the news business, which I've worked in for 20+ years to report mostly bad news. Opening up a newscast with, "Nothing happened today!" doesn't have the same punch!

Google News - Thailand

[ThaiLover1]

...It's the nature of the news business, which I've worked in for 20+ years to report mostly bad news. Opening up a newscast with, "Nothing happened today!" doesn't have the same punch!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eng911, I totally agree. I am glad you brought up the point about the nature of the news business. This is exactly my point.

However, we may not have much control over Google news or CNN reporting, but George is reading our suggestions. With a little casting of a vote, we can make a difference.

How about some news about our gorgeous Thai models, and what they are doing with their lives? (smile) Thai people seem to be most interested in this, as well. Go to Sanook.com - to see perhaps the most visited site in Thailand. You will see mostly good news. Why are Farangs so darn interested in the scum news?

How about some fun news that brightens your day (sanook)?

I hope there are positive things worth reporting, in this Thailand news section - other than murder, sex offenders and low-life of Farang and Thai societies.

Using "bad news reporting" as an excuse to pull a punch may work for the bean counter (read: accounting manager), but it gets pretty boring and old hat -- real quick.

Eng911, there are a few of use that think "bad news reporting" is not neccesary to keep readers coming back. However, it is nice to hear your frank comments on how the news industry works. (smile)

Edited September 12, 2005 by ThaiLover1

[Khutan]

Interesting is it good news or bad newes.

Obviously its bad news for the man charged with the offence, I would guess its good news for Thailand that he is having all his methods of escape closed. No passport means he can't flee to another country and set up again.

I am sure if he is acquitted of the charges, the Australian Govt will give him another passport.

[hot-in-phuket]

I disagree with the criticism. I think it is important for such articles to be posted. Thailand is a unique country and I've been many times. It is also known somewhat for its unusual happenings such as policemen gunning down tourist and the Thai governments execution of drug dealers. It's also known as a haven for those seeking children for sex, also Cambodia but they get there via Thailand.

I need only point to my childhood rock star icon Gary Glitter as a prime example. These stories need to get out.

- to let people know that the police do charge people when they catch them

- to get the names of such people out in the public eye and back to their home countries

- to educate people that even in Thailand sex with a minor is not acceptable

I sat in a swank Bangkok hotel recently with my Thai wife of six year and our daughter. The table next was soon occupied by some old fart with his 14 or 15 year old toy boy. The old fart got on the phone and shared how he was having breakfast after a lovely night with a young boy he had picked up at the night market. Through listening to the conversation a little more it was revealed that the man was a teacher back home in New York. I wanted so bad to just get up and kick the living crap out of him. Only the fact that I was in a foreign country deterred me, although clearly it didn't deter him.

I enjoy my emails from Thai Visa and the one that brought me here had just a couple of other links, four to be exact, that were all subdomians of Thai Visa which help generate revenue. You guys have no idea how much work is involved in running a succesful web site. You just come here and use it. Who cares if the pages have a few relevant ads on the side. I don't even notice them any more.

Quit your complaining or go start your own forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think you protest to much. You also appear to be homophobic. If "the old fart" had been sitting next to a girl younger than himself would you have been feeling the same hate, me thinks not. Get a life

[normita]

This Aussi guy needs to go to trial and if guilty what's looks like to be the case go to shadow preferably here in Thailand for time enough to make him impotent for sure....

I think this posting are correctly placed by George, it informs me about foreigners in Thailand, some may be people i know and could help them or so if they are caught wrongfully what may happen depending the mood of the guys in brown...

I am just happy the so many murder cases and other raping what can be found on Thai TV or Thai news concerning only Thai people is not coming by this breaking news it would have a lesser reason to be found here....

The posting of this foreigner cases can may be give a better opinion then what may be found on Bagkok post or The Nation only as people of the forum may know them positively or negatively making the picture more clear...

Do no let this guy go away, and how hleps that girl ?

[FREDPAT]

Sorry, lads, but I have to agree with George in that he doesn't really have a choice. The media doesn't report things like, "And in other news, a farang managed to string together a grammatically correct sentence in Thai", or "Man helps lady across the street." It's just not newsworthy or interesting. Even you posters who are slamming George are given a venue through which you can vent your frustrations and/or provide your opinions, so count yourselves lucky for people like George who take time out of their day to provide us with something to talk about. I wouldn't be writing now if George didn't give me a reason. I'm hardly going to comment on "Man helps lady across street, overloads good deeds of the day meter". I could say something like "By "man" do you mean HU"man" or man in the true sense of the word, and do we really know whether or not it was a "street"? It could have been an "avenue", "boulevard", "cul de sac" , or a "street to nowhere."

Give him a break. It's interesting to talk about things "wrong" with Thailand, because it gives all of us a common ground on which to build relationships. I don't want to hear negative things all the time, but I also need to vent because of the lack of "common sense", the seemingly "life is cheap" in Thailand" argument, and many other things. I lived in Japan for 15 years before moving here, and I'll tell you right now, I'd rather be here than there, without question.

One last thing. If we didn't hear about the bad or stupid stuff, then we'd hardly be energized to try to change anything. I doubt any farang living in Thailand wants to change it, because we've all moved here because it is the way it is. But sometimes, the "lack of common sense" thing get's on our tits, and we'd like to "help" the Thais see whatever it is from a different perspective. Our respective cultures could learn much from each other.

I'm so starved for anything remotely interesting, that I've just written a huge post without even noticing. Anyone interested in chatting about current events? My brain needs some stimulation. To all,

Best regards, and Cheers!

[normita]

Sorry about the faults, who helps this guirl now ?

This was the question this related to the ealier posting of that guy's case and specially that guirl's life...

[Rigger]

I disagree with the criticism. I think it is important for such articles to be posted. Thailand is a unique country and I've been many times. It is also known somewhat for its unusual happenings such as policemen gunning down tourist and the Thai governments execution of drug dealers. It's also known as a haven for those seeking children for sex, also Cambodia but they get there via Thailand.

I need only point to my childhood rock star icon Gary Glitter as a prime example. These stories need to get out.

- to let people know that the police do charge people when they catch them

- to get the names of such people out in the public eye and back to their home countries

- to educate people that even in Thailand sex with a minor is not acceptable

I sat in a swank Bangkok hotel recently with my Thai wife of six year and our daughter. The table next was soon occupied by some old fart with his 14 or 15 year old toy boy. The old fart got on the phone and shared how he was having breakfast after a lovely night with a young boy he had picked up at the night market. Through listening to the conversation a little more it was revealed that the man was a teacher back home in New York. I wanted so bad to just get up and kick the living crap out of him. Only the fact that I was in a foreign country deterred me, although clearly it didn't deter him.

I enjoy my emails from Thai Visa and the one that brought me here had just a couple of other links, four to be exact, that were all subdomians of Thai Visa which help generate revenue. You guys have no idea how much work is involved in running a succesful web site. You just come here and use it. Who cares if the pages have a few relevant ads on the side. I don't even notice them any more.

Quit your complaining or go start your own forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think you protest to much. You also appear to be homophobic. If "the old fart" had been sitting next to a girl younger than himself would you have been feeling the same hate, me thinks not. Get a life

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

@#$% off back to your little fag section @#$% sick poo jabing C@#T

[Richard Hall]

Well, it is a two bladed sword when posting "bad" news and one can look at it from two different perspectives:

1. Sheer sensationlism for the sake of money making

2. As a warning what can happen if foreigners behave improper

When looking at thaivisa.com's history, the way it has been developed, run, moderated and supervised it appears obvious that putting a good reputation that built over a long period of time at risk will be counter-productive or even say it a little harsher insane. From a logicial point of view it is somewhat unlikely that a person with the capabilities to take a website to the levels where thaivisa.com stands now is just such a nut throwing long years of work and devotion into the gutter for a handful of bucks. Admittely, there is a well known tendency among the administrators towards the amber coloured and also grape derived liquids but heck there is still plenty of evidence all the time that the senses have not been flushed away.

Since thaivsa.com is targeting at foreigners with an interest of learning about Thailand and seeking advice local Thai media news relating to this subject will surely always be an issue. Unfortunately, however, in most cases only the thrilling subjects make it to the papers (kindly refer to 1.) and hence there are not many publications such as "foreigner found heaven in LOS".

Anyway, I see the news clipping pattern in a positive way in terms of a stern warning to stay away from illegal acitvities if one does not want to run the risk to get severely burnt. If it helps to prevent this and/or reduce the headcount of scum choosing Thailand as their personal paradise, well, the mission is indeed apprecitable even if this may unintentionable provide an occasional misleading impression that visiting or living in Siam is comparable to being at Sin City in the means of Sodom and Gomorrha rather than the Land of the Smiles.

Prey on minors, do drugs, disobey the laws and you will get chewed-up badly here in Thailand is from my point of view a good and proper message and well, what can I say under these circumstances: "Keep it coming, George".

Cheers,

Richard

Edited September 12, 2005 by Richard Hall

[Maejo Man]

Think you protest to much. You also appear to be homophobic. If "the old fart" had been sitting next to a girl younger than himself would you have been feeling the same hate, me thinks not. Get a life

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Homophobic, &lt;deleted&gt;! Old farts and young people of either sex are just as revolting to watch in public.

Now back to the topic in hand. If he has had his passport cancelled by the Australian government, there must be a lot more in it than we are reading here. Governments do not just cancel a citizens passport for simply being charged with a crime, even if that crime is murder or drug related. All will come out in time, but seeing this is Thailand, probably not all

[99BigLad99]

Why is it everybody presumes the man is guilty (not George but the sex offender)??? I live upcountry and I like the news good or bad and I have a choice if I read it some items only get read for a few seconds before being deleated and it takes no effort to get to the next page. With regard to adverts you dont have to look at them personally I have not even noticed the advert links as I am not interested in them.

So please just keep the news coming.

[SiriusBlack1]

I find George's posts interesting and informative. If they're not your cup of mekhong, don't read 'em. No clickee, no readee.

[BPayette]

Does anyone know if "Sanook" website can be switched to Angrit?

[bdenner]

George, please don’t take any notice of some of these posts and keep the news clips coming. It’s all very well for those having access to English written newspapers but for we, whom are located out in the 'sticks', it's our only link to any local news given the limited connection facilities we have.

Contrary to others and IMO - This is a "Good News" story, and sends a message to other wayward Aussies that their actions will not be tolerated by their Government no matter where the offence has been committed.

[johnrh]

I have said it before and I will say it again,

George .... Do you only post bad things about Thailand ? You seem to have this thing where you only post "New News" about anything that you can find in the press that is really bad against Thailand,

Apologies to anyone who has a response to this "News" My comments are totally unrelated to the content of this issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well this has certainly stirred things up a bit, and although it's strictly off topic I'd also like to have a go.

It is sometimes a bit depressing to click the email just to get another load of bad news about events in Thailand, seemingly chosen for just that reason. But we shouldn't be too hard on George, who's just trying to do his best. Actually, all he's doing is reflecting the general mood and attitude of many forum members. How many times do we see, from the same old old old names: "Uh oh, here go again....", "Of course, TIT......", "We'll all be murdered in our beds......" an so on, in response even to news that could be given a positive spin? This is very usual, and perhaps some members need to think about their own negative attitude to Thailand and life in general.

Having blown off on that, I wonder about the legality of "cancelling" a citizen's passport just like that. I thought all they could do is demand it's return, in this case I suppose, to be held by the embassy until the case ie is resolved.

And hey, knock of the stuff about "old farts", homophobic or otherwise! I don't see anything wrong with an older man enjoying the company of a young girl (but old enough, of course), and it isn't a "disgusting sight in public." A bit of envy from the young lads, eh?

[zander]

I find George's posts interesting and informative. If they're not your cup of mekhong, don't read 'em. No clickee, no readee.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you

I am quite busy and if not for George's posts, I would seldom read about Thailand. Therefore, I am grateful and appreciate his posts that help to keep me informed of the happenings in Thailand (good or bad is subjective)... As for the ads, I hardly notice them and usually give them a miss

Keep them coming George!

Cheers

[george]

Keep 'em coming! I am reading your feedback with great interest. Maybe we should start a daily newsletter instead (a news summary of all news that are related to expats and Thailand). Keep the ideas coming, even critisism welcomed.

[Jai Dee]

Admittely, there is a well known tendency among the administrators towards the amber coloured and also grape derived liquids but heck there is still plenty of evidence all the time that the senses have not been flushed away. 

Classic!!!