Tourist Deaths In Chiang Mai Just A ‘Coincidence’

[jfchandler]

Downtown INN Downtown HOTEL, are they the same death trap?

Don't think too much...it's another coincidence!

The correct name and location is Downtown Inn in Chiang Mai, which is, of course, a hotel.

http://www.empressho...wntown_inn.html

Also, this past Chiang Mai Mail article indicates the current CM Mayor is the nephew of the former mayor... whose family owns the hotel company involved.

Edited March 9, 2011 by jfchandler

[sangfroid]

Of course it is! coincidence that is.

Just like other foreigners found hanging by the neck on 5 cm ropes or with a bullet hole in the back of the head is a suicide or foreigners found dead in the room is also a suicide while the entire safe full of money is missing.

But my favorite is foreigners falling out from their balcony's those are either suicides or they were very drunk.

Not to mock, but a genuine question, when it comes to locals, is it the same kind of detective work or different?

Speaking of which!!

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Norwegian-tourist-falls-to-his-death-from-8th-floo-30150445.html

[spectrumisgreen]

Did anyone for even a nanosecond expect anything else?

Very true, unfortunately...

Something more is interesting. Room numbers, 516 and 518 are next door. I could bet the time of "accident" in both rooms match.

An elderly couple sadly dying within a short time of each other certainly doesn't necessarily need any explanation other than the tragedy of it. After all, what more than the sudden, though 'natural' death of a life-long partner to bring on your own fatality, especially if your health just was never up to the shock and heartbreak. Nevertheless, when you have young people dying within the very same hotel, all these people within days of each other, and apparently in rooms within a close proximity, then 'coincidence' is just never going to cut it, is it? So, come on hoteliers etc, get that faulty gas, air-duct or whatever, found and tell us, and moreover the families, just why these things happened. Get it sorted, ensure guests safety and until then, just close the *!@*+^! place down!!!

[softgeorge]

UPDATE

Governor reports on deaths of 4 guests at local hotel

By Phitsanu Thepthong

Chiang Mai Governor ML Panadda Diskul reports on the deaths of four people in a local hotel

Chiang Mai authorities are still working urgently on the investigation of the deaths of four people at the Downtown Inn Hotel near the Night Bazaar last month it was reported at a press conference. In three separate cases a Thai tourist guide, a New Zealand student and a British couple all died at the same hotel within days of each other.

Chiang Mai Governor M.L. Panadda Diskul reported that samples are being sent to the U.S. and Japan for further investigation, especially in the case of the New Zealand girl, Sarah Carter, originally reported as food poisoning.

The Provincial Public Health Office, the Office of Epidemiology, the Communicable Disease Control and Prevention Center, Maharaj Nakhon Chiang Mai Hospital, the Institute for Forensic Medicine, forensic police and Chiang Mai Provincial Police are all involved in the cases.

Thai authorities said the cause of death in two cases was still not clear; Mrs. Waraporn Yinghasawanont, 47, a Thai tour guide who checked in and stayed at the hotel February 2. After sightseeing tours to Doi Suthep the previous day, she was found dead in the morning of February 3 in front of the bathroom in her hotel room. Doctors reported that she had asthma and Pol. Col. Montri Sampunnanont, the Deputy Chiang Mai Provincial Police Commander told the Chiang Mai Mail that she had been seen with labored breathing and that might be the cause of her death.

However, Dr. Paskorn Arkarasewee, the Director of the Office of Epidemiology said the real cause of the death of the guide Mrs. Waraporn had not been determined and that the cause of death of Sarah Carter, the New Zealand tourist, was still unclear.

A Chiang Mai Muang District Police said that Ms. Sarah Katherine Carter, 23, a student from New Zealand traveled from Phuket to Chiang Mai and checked in to the hotel on February 2 with two friends. On February 3 they were found seriously ill with vomiting and nausea so the hotel staff called an ambulance to take them the hospital for treatment where, on February 6, Sarah Carter died. The other two girls also ill, eventually recovered and returned home.

Dr. Derek Bunnachak of the Medical Faculty of Maharaj Nakhon Chiang Mai Hospital told Chiang Mai Mail that bacteria might be a cause of food poisoning. Dr. Pasakorn of the Epidemiology Office said they were seriously sick, with bad stomachaches and vomiting, and Miss Carter may have gone into shock from this. “This was really a rare case.”

He added that the primary diagnosis suspected the E Coli bacteria caused by unclean food. “However, samples were sent for further examination in both the United States and Japan to find the real cause,” confirmed Dr. Pasakorn Arkaraseree, Director of the Epidemiology Office.

Provincial Public Health Office Deputy Head Dr. Surasing Wisarutrat said the case will not be concluded until all test results are in. Doctors confirmed that they did not eat seaweed as earlier reports suggested.

The Governor expressed his sadness and concern over the death of the young New Zealand girl, “Thai authorities are looking hard at the case to find the cause and we will inform formally and immediately the family members through the New Zealand Embassy.

He spoke on behalf of Thai authorities that “We are very much concerned and definitely look after all visitors to Chiang Mai.” He has ordered government officials to step up inspection of all food shops, restaurants and hotel services to ensure food cleanliness.

Chiang Mai Police then reported that the elderly British couple, Eileen and George Everitt who checked into the hotel on February 9. They were scheduled to check out February 19 but when they did not appear, staff called their room and then entered the locked room with a master key after they had not answered the phone. There they found the couple dead, Eileen Everitt, age 74 on the bed and George Everitt, 78, sitting near the bed.

Police found no evidence of a break in, no signs of illness or vomiting, no drugs or poisonous substances in the room. It is believed the couple died on February 17 or early morning the 18th since they did not appear for breakfast on the 18th. Doctors reported that both couples suffered from severe blockage of the arteries that resulted in a coronary thrombosis.

[chiangmaimail]2011-03-09[/chiangmaimail]

Yes samples are being sent to Japan this is true but what he neglected to say was that it was not the Thais who have done this but the KIWI's

[Interman]

I was a cop, a detective at that, and I've met a fair share of Thai "detectives" in the last few years.Spent hours talking with them.

Simply put, they generally possess a total lack of even rudimentary training and couldn't detect an elephant in a life raft.

So, in many cases, it's not that they are "covering something up," it's that they lack the skills, techniques, experience and facilities to uncover anything. Therefore it is easier to claim it a coincidence than to admit they are stymied, and are clueless as to what to do next.

It's more the old "saving face" thing than mai pen rai.

Without even speaking to any so called detective, i have to agree with you.

I do not think there even is a police academy or detective school, i do not think they have forensic labs, if they do, i doubt its well equipped or even equipped at all(just look at police stations and police vehicles, including bikes)

Autopsy cost money(which again they do not have or do not want to spend) and again may not have properly trained staff, just look at public hospitals, some docs can not even diagnose appendix.

So its no alternative but to declare every death as suicide or accident, unless its so clear, that they simply can not make such a statement, but then the killers are hardly every found,unless police is tipped off

Oh come on.... You've never seen the old skinny lady with the funky red hair do her thang???

[dunkin2012]

I was a cop, a detective at that, and I've met a fair share of Thai "detectives" in the last few years.Spent hours talking with them.

Simply put, they generally possess a total lack of even rudimentary training and couldn't detect an elephant in a life raft.

So, in many cases, it's not that they are "covering something up," it's that they lack the skills, techniques, experience and facilities to uncover anything. Therefore it is easier to claim it a coincidence than to admit they are stymied, and are clueless as to what to do next.

It's more the old "saving face" thing than mai pen rai.

Without even speaking to any so called detective, i have to agree with you.

I do not think there even is a police academy or detective school, i do not think they have forensic labs, if they do, i doubt its well equipped or even equipped at all(just look at police stations and police vehicles, including bikes)

Autopsy cost money(which again they do not have or do not want to spend) and again may not have properly trained staff, just look at public hospitals, some docs can not even diagnose appendix.

So its no alternative but to declare every death as suicide or accident, unless its so clear, that they simply can not make such a statement, but then the killers are hardly every found,unless police is tipped off

Oh come on.... You've never seen the old skinny lady with the funky red hair do her thang???

if he means Dr.Porntip. She is an expert in Autopsy and well known to all the Thais in this field. She used to work a lot during the boxing day Tsunami hit Puket some years ago. She didn't get along well with one of high command polices. She is viewed as a little RED for PAD,Yellow. They have everything you have at home dude..

[spectrumisgreen]

Statistically, there is a connection with Downtown inn and the deaths. The independent variable is X used to test against Y, dependent variable from my knowledge. one of the independent variables, Xs is Downtown Inn. They must be clear about the connection with Downtown Inn first before move on to other independent variables then.

What??????

Yes WHAT ?????? whatever your on mate ---count me out. must be pretty strong.

>> Bit of a 'flashback' to 'Fight Club', there, methinks, where the narrator is telling us how they (big car companies) decide on whether to do a 'recall' or a huge compensation payout in the case of a car-crash-faulty-vehicle scenario?

"You take the population of vehicles in the field [A]and multiply it by the probable rate of failure then multiply the result by the average cost of an out-of-court settlement [C].

A times B times C equals X. This is what it will cost if we don't initiate a recall.

If X is greater than the cost of a recall, we recall the cars and no one gets hurt. If X is less than the cost of a recall, then we don't recall."

So.. to recall or not to recall, you think...?

While we're on theme (or off it, whatever!).. Maybe all the 'just coincidence' reassurances, are actually the application of the 'upping the oxygen to keep us calm' theory:

'You know why they put oxygen masks on planes?.. Oxygen gets you high. In a catastrophic emergency, you're taking giant panicked breaths. Suddenly you become euphoric, docile. You accept your fate. It's all right here. Emergency water landing - 600 miles an hour. Blank faces, calm as Hindu cows.'

I think another phrase for it, is 'Just smile and accept your fate, it's all good medicine, yes?'

Sorry, its late and I'm bored...

Edited March 9, 2011 by spectrumisgreen

[kuffki]

I was a cop, a detective at that, and I've met a fair share of Thai "detectives" in the last few years.Spent hours talking with them.

Simply put, they generally possess a total lack of even rudimentary training and couldn't detect an elephant in a life raft.

So, in many cases, it's not that they are "covering something up," it's that they lack the skills, techniques, experience and facilities to uncover anything. Therefore it is easier to claim it a coincidence than to admit they are stymied, and are clueless as to what to do next.

It's more the old "saving face" thing than mai pen rai.

Without even speaking to any so called detective, i have to agree with you.

I do not think there even is a police academy or detective school, i do not think they have forensic labs, if they do, i doubt its well equipped or even equipped at all(just look at police stations and police vehicles, including bikes)

Autopsy cost money(which again they do not have or do not want to spend) and again may not have properly trained staff, just look at public hospitals, some docs can not even diagnose appendix.

So its no alternative but to declare every death as suicide or accident, unless its so clear, that they simply can not make such a statement, but then the killers are hardly every found,unless police is tipped off

Oh come on.... You've never seen the old skinny lady with the funky red hair do her thang???

if he means Dr.Porntip. She is an expert in Autopsy and well known to all the Thais in this field. She used to work a lot during the boxing day Tsunami hit Puket some years ago. She didn't get along well with one of high command polices. She is viewed as a little RED for PAD,Yellow. They have everything you have at home dude..

Unless you have worked in Coroner's office back home and in Thailand, i really fail to see how you would know what they have.

Also having, does not mean knowing how to use it.

and lastly, perhaps you had forgotten, Australia, USA and few others sent their own forensics to Thailand, because some of the reasons were- locals were not able to identify people and were way too slow , did not have enough equipment and expertise.

I am unsure though on this comments you made and how it is relevant or what you wanted to say "She is viewed as a little RED for PAD,Yellow"

[dunkin2012]

I was a cop, a detective at that, and I've met a fair share of Thai "detectives" in the last few years.Spent hours talking with them.

Simply put, they generally possess a total lack of even rudimentary training and couldn't detect an elephant in a life raft.

So, in many cases, it's not that they are "covering something up," it's that they lack the skills, techniques, experience and facilities to uncover anything. Therefore it is easier to claim it a coincidence than to admit they are stymied, and are clueless as to what to do next.

It's more the old "saving face" thing than mai pen rai.

Without even speaking to any so called detective, i have to agree with you.

I do not think there even is a police academy or detective school, i do not think they have forensic labs, if they do, i doubt its well equipped or even equipped at all(just look at police stations and police vehicles, including bikes)

Autopsy cost money(which again they do not have or do not want to spend) and again may not have properly trained staff, just look at public hospitals, some docs can not even diagnose appendix.

So its no alternative but to declare every death as suicide or accident, unless its so clear, that they simply can not make such a statement, but then the killers are hardly every found,unless police is tipped off

Oh come on.... You've never seen the old skinny lady with the funky red hair do her thang???

if he means Dr.Porntip. She is an expert in Autopsy and well known to all the Thais in this field. She used to work a lot during the boxing day Tsunami hit Puket some years ago. She didn't get along well with one of high command polices. She is viewed as a little RED for PAD,Yellow. They have everything you have at home dude..

Unless you have worked in Coroner's office back home and in Thailand, i really fail to see how you would know what they have.

Also having, does not mean knowing how to use it.

and lastly, perhaps you had forgotten, Australia, USA and few others sent their own forensics to Thailand, because some of the reasons were- locals were not able to identify people and were way too slow , did not have enough equipment and expertise.

I am unsure though on this comments you made and how it is relevant or what you wanted to say "She is viewed as a little RED for PAD,Yellow"

Only I heard on ASTV. They told her off and accused her for being RED..... For the fact, I don't really know. Bro.

[BeatrizAgeno]

NO, this is NOT a coincidence, and they need to look beyond the hotel. My good friend Soraya Vorster, aged 33, died on january 10, 2011 in Chang Mai of the same thing. She wasnt staying at this hotel but her death was the same. There needs to be a thorough investigation on why this is happening. Its literally a case of life or death, this could happen to more people and we need to find out why!

[personchester]

Did anyone for even a nanosecond expect anything else?

Very true, unfortunately...

Something more is interesting. Room numbers, 516 and 518 are next door. I could bet the time of "accident" in both rooms match.

It may not be a criminal matter at all as indicated in some of the postings, nor caused by any nearby pavement food offerings, since the victims would not all have eaten the same dish.

What appears to be a possibility here is that some fatal viruses,(or gas) escaped from the air-con's in their rooms, air-con's need to be properly serviced and cleaned every three months approx. in order to prevent poisonous elements exiting from the air-con's, those existing viruses are impossible to identify because they are entirely odourless, (and so is some type gas) and if hotel guests stay in their room for several days the result is bound to be fatal.

Fatal diseases are caused by viruses that live in dirty air-con's during hot outside temperature, one of the very dangerous diseases caused by those viruses is called "legionnaire disease" and if it is not dealt with quickly hospital-wise, then it can be fatal within a short time.

This could explain the reason for the almost "same time" dead of the English couple since they stayed in the hotel room together and thus inhaled together unknowingly the poisonous virus (or gas) during their entire stay at their hotel room, and the same could / would have applied to the dead of the other two victims.

Very chocking indeed, and the matter should be fully investigated in order to get to the bottom of it.

[overhaul38]

I was a cop, a detective at that, and I've met a fair share of Thai "detectives" in the last few years.Spent hours talking with them.

Simply put, they generally possess a total lack of even rudimentary training and couldn't detect an elephant in a life raft.

So, in many cases, it's not that they are "covering something up," it's that they lack the skills, techniques, experience and facilities to uncover anything. Therefore it is easier to claim it a coincidence than to admit they are stymied, and are clueless as to what to do next.

It's more the old "saving face" thing than mai pen rai.

Without even speaking to any so called detective, i have to agree with you.

I do not think there even is a police academy or detective school, i do not think they have forensic labs, if they do, i doubt its well equipped or even equipped at all(just look at police stations and police vehicles, including bikes)

Autopsy cost money(which again they do not have or do not want to spend) and again may not have properly trained staff, just look at public hospitals, some docs can not even diagnose appendix.

So its no alternative but to declare every death as suicide or accident, unless its so clear, that they simply can not make such a statement, but then the killers are hardly every found,unless police is tipped off

Frequent visitors soon learns that criminal investigation in Thailand is very selective and not really a matter of interest. It is not surprising that forensic skills in a developing country not up to standards in developed countries. You visit Thailand at your own risk, knowing there's virtually no insurance or liability for injury and damage.

[kuffki]

I was a cop, a detective at that, and I've met a fair share of Thai "detectives" in the last few years.Spent hours talking with them.

Simply put, they generally possess a total lack of even rudimentary training and couldn't detect an elephant in a life raft.

So, in many cases, it's not that they are "covering something up," it's that they lack the skills, techniques, experience and facilities to uncover anything. Therefore it is easier to claim it a coincidence than to admit they are stymied, and are clueless as to what to do next.

It's more the old "saving face" thing than mai pen rai.

Without even speaking to any so called detective, i have to agree with you.

I do not think there even is a police academy or detective school, i do not think they have forensic labs, if they do, i doubt its well equipped or even equipped at all(just look at police stations and police vehicles, including bikes)

Autopsy cost money(which again they do not have or do not want to spend) and again may not have properly trained staff, just look at public hospitals, some docs can not even diagnose appendix.

So its no alternative but to declare every death as suicide or accident, unless its so clear, that they simply can not make such a statement, but then the killers are hardly every found,unless police is tipped off

Frequent visitors soon learns that criminal investigation in Thailand is very selective and not really a matter of interest. It is not surprising that forensic skills in a developing country not up to standards in developed countries. You visit Thailand at your own risk, knowing there's virtually no insurance or liability for injury and damage.

I am sorry but i do not agree with you there at all.

Thailand promotes itself as a medical hub, business hub and transportation hub to name the few.

Thailand is a leader in turning man into women.

Travelers are sold insurance with no extra costs or premiums.

Thailand does promote itself as "land of smiles" and Thailand does advertise and has Tourist Police.

Forensic services is NOT some extra ordinary science, it is a precise study.

I am sure if Thailand promoted itself as a developing country with no insurance or liability the number of tourists would be reduced by millions.

One can limit risks that person takes, but i doubt anyone can even consider the situation at hand.

Even if they are unable to determine the cause of death at the moment, hotel should be closed and sealed and treated as a crime scene until everything becomes clear.

Keeping it open not only contaminates the crime scene(and it is crime scene unless proven otherwise) but also shows no regard for law or human life and that has nothing to do with being a developing country, but rather common sense, duty of care and human compassion.

[marc651]

UPDATE

Governor reports on deaths of 4 guests at local hotel

By Phitsanu Thepthong

Chiang Mai Governor ML Panadda Diskul reports on the deaths of four people in a local hotel

Chiang Mai authorities are still working urgently on the investigation of the deaths of four people at the Downtown Inn Hotel near the Night Bazaar last month it was reported at a press conference. In three separate cases a Thai tourist guide, a New Zealand student and a British couple all died at the same hotel within days of each other.

we all know that the first 24 hours after a suspicious death are crucial for finding out the truth. Meanwhile most direct evidence will be gone.

Chiang Mai Governor M.L. Panadda Diskul reported that samples are being sent to the U.S. and Japan for further investigation, especially in the case of the New Zealand girl, Sarah Carter, originally reported as food poisoning.

The Provincial Public Health Office, the Office of Epidemiology, the Communicable Disease Control and Prevention Center, Maharaj Nakhon Chiang Mai Hospital, the Institute for Forensic Medicine, forensic police and Chiang Mai Provincial Police are all involved in the cases.

Thai authorities said the cause of death in two cases was still not clear; Mrs. Waraporn Yinghasawanont, 47, a Thai tour guide who checked in and stayed at the hotel February 2. After sightseeing tours to Doi Suthep the previous day, she was found dead in the morning of February 3 in front of the bathroom in her hotel room. Doctors reported that she had asthma and Pol. Col. Montri Sampunnanont, the Deputy Chiang Mai Provincial Police Commander told the Chiang Mai Mail that she had been seen with labored breathing and that might be the cause of her death.

When dying of poisoning in one way or another it is not unusual to have trouble breathing is it? (regardless of having asthma)

However, Dr. Paskorn Arkarasewee, the Director of the Office of Epidemiology said the real cause of the death of the guide Mrs. Waraporn had not been determined and that the cause of death of Sarah Carter, the New Zealand tourist, was still unclear.

The docter agrees the cause of death is unclear

A Chiang Mai Muang District Police said that Ms. Sarah Katherine Carter, 23, a student from New Zealand traveled from Phuket to Chiang Mai and checked in to the hotel on February 2 with two friends. On February 3 they were found seriously ill with vomiting and nausea so the hotel staff called an ambulance to take them the hospital for treatment where, on February 6, Sarah Carter died. The other two girls also ill, eventually recovered and returned home.

The three of them poisoned. What do the survivors have to say about this? Have they been questioned?

Dr. Derek Bunnachak of the Medical Faculty of Maharaj Nakhon Chiang Mai Hospital told Chiang Mai Mail that bacteria might be a cause of food poisoning. Dr. Pasakorn of the Epidemiology Office said they were seriously sick, with bad stomachaches and vomiting, and Miss Carter may have gone into shock from this. "This was really a rare case."

He said that it "might" be food poisoning, based on the symptoms. We can all imagine many causes that "might" have caused it, what is the value of this statement ??

He added that the primary diagnosis suspected the E Coli bacteria caused by unclean food. "However, samples were sent for further examination in both the United States and Japan to find the real cause," confirmed Dr. Pasakorn Arkaraseree, Director of the Epidemiology Office.

Provincial Public Health Office Deputy Head Dr. Surasing Wisarutrat said the case will not be concluded until all test results are in. Doctors confirmed that they did not eat seaweed as earlier reports suggested.

The Governor expressed his sadness and concern over the death of the young New Zealand girl, "Thai authorities are looking hard at the case to find the cause and we will inform formally and immediately the family members through the New Zealand Embassy.

what does that mean? "looking hard at the case" ..?

He spoke on behalf of Thai authorities that "We are very much concerned and definitely look after all visitors to Chiang Mai." He has ordered government officials to step up inspection of all food shops, restaurants and hotel services to ensure food cleanliness.

Who jumped to conclusions that food poisoning was the cause? That it was an accidental poisoning of all these people?

Chiang Mai Police then reported that the elderly British couple, Eileen and George Everitt who checked into the hotel on February 9. They were scheduled to check out February 19 but when they did not appear, staff called their room and then entered the locked room with a master key after they had not answered the phone. There they found the couple dead, Eileen Everitt, age 74 on the bed and George Everitt, 78, sitting near the bed.

Police found no evidence of a break in, no signs of illness or vomiting, no drugs or poisonous substances in the room. It is believed the couple died on February 17 or early morning the 18th since they did not appear for breakfast on the 18th. Doctors reported that both couples suffered from severe blockage of the arteries that resulted in a coronary thrombosis.

[chiangmaimail]2011-03-09[/chiangmaimail]

My point is, to which extent is the theory of some psychopath murderer investigated? Clearly, these people have been poisoned, ether on purpose or not on purpose. The investigation seems to be actively looking for an accidental cause of poisoning (food or whatever).

Nowhere I see this case being treated as a potential serial killer case. There could be some employee randomly poisoning something in this hotel. Have they looked at who worked and who was staying in the hotel at the time of the poisoning?

[OzMick]

One of you mentioned the food as possibility. One another possibility can be Legionnaires' disease ( http://en.wikipedia....i/Legionellosis ). In case of shared air condition system, some part of the line may be infected.

Legionnaire's is transmitted in the fine droplets of water emitted from the cooling towers of large air-con systems; there is no connection to the room units. And if you look at the picture shown in a few posts, it is obvious that this hotel uses small, individual room split-systems.

[Amras]

"One thing is clear, no virus or bacterium acts that fast, " - firstly that is nonsense and secondly you don't know "how fast" anyway do you?

I think there is a lot of rubbish posted here by people who like to think it is a kind of conspiracy theory and want to be part of it.

The truth is probably far more mundane.

The people died due to some problem associated with the hotel or tourism. THe Thai authorities have no interst in the truth, those involved or finding out what happened - they simply want the matter to go away.

" firstly that is nonsense ", really, so you are an expert on viral and bacterial infections? Please educate me as to which can kill within a couple of hours. I'm just a run of the mill scientist, always willing to learn from an expert.

If you were any sort of "scientist" , you wouldn't need to ask me.

In other words you don't know, you just like to rubbish other people's comments

Hmm... ok, if you actually do research. In general no Virus can act that fast, within a few hours to produce symptoms, Virus' generally take longer for symptoms to show up, and then are persistant while your body attempts to fight it off. This all has to do with immune response.

Bacterial infections are different and can cause serious illness much faster than viral infections as a number of bacteria produce enterotoxins which are excreted during their replication and growth. This is the biggest issue with bacteria and not the actual bacterium themselves.

One example is:

staphylococcal enterotoxin B agent: Staphylococcus aureus symptoms: acts in 3-12 hours; produces chills, headache, and high fever (up to 106 degrees) for several days death: incapacitating but rarely fatal.

although most can be treated, botulism is generally one exception which can kill quickly, yet other people have known to survive.

Toxic shock syndrome is probably one of the more severe reactions to Staphylococcus which can kill in hours. Have a read about it.

http://en.wikipedia...._shock_syndrome

How about instead of people just blurting garbage, you actually make sure what your saying is fact, instead of assuming and DO SOME RESEARCH FIRST.

Whether or not a bacterial 'food poisoning' occuerred here is very hard to tell, assuming all the symptoms, etc of the individuals has actually be accurately disclosed. Not saying there possibly isn't an issue with the hotel, but we honestly don't know.

AND no it can't be cyanide, cyanide prevents your blood cells binding to oxygen, so you would essentially internally suffocate, which the girl in hospital before dying did not.

It certainly sounds like a bacterial toxin, which is why someone young died and her friends survived. As bacterial toxins don't act dependent on the immune system like Virus' do and hence why they can be so deadly to anyone of any age.

The old people, now thats a mystery, but certainly not improbably that one died and the other died later due to their age.

The old people and the girls you can possibly explain (as two seperate accounts), but having the third thai tourist guide, means it is likely connected to the hotel, or by chance they all at at the same place that day.

Was there any suggestion that the girls and the tourist guide where familair with each other?

Yes, I have also studied science, but clearly I learnt something during when I studied.

[cookyboy]

At the press conference at Chiang Mai police headquarters today Chiang Mai Governor Pannada Disakul tried to allay fears of tourists caused by the four deaths in one hotel last month by saying: "We have to admit that these deaths coming one after another, are nothing more than coincidence. We have done and will continue to do our utmost to make tourists confident in our city."

I was hoping that they would say that they would do their utmost to find out what the tourists died of...

You're kidding right? Do you think the Chiang Mai police honestly care? Heck we still can't even get the facts on David Carradine dying in Bangkok. Farangs don't matter here. Never did, never will.

isnt that a true statement to live by

[dunkin2012]

UPDATE

Governor reports on deaths of 4 guests at local hotel

By Phitsanu Thepthong

Chiang Mai Governor ML Panadda Diskul reports on the deaths of four people in a local hotel

Chiang Mai authorities are still working urgently on the investigation of the deaths of four people at the Downtown Inn Hotel near the Night Bazaar last month it was reported at a press conference. In three separate cases a Thai tourist guide, a New Zealand student and a British couple all died at the same hotel within days of each other.

we all know that the first 24 hours after a suspicious death are crucial for finding out the truth. Meanwhile most direct evidence will be gone.

Chiang Mai Governor M.L. Panadda Diskul reported that samples are being sent to the U.S. and Japan for further investigation, especially in the case of the New Zealand girl, Sarah Carter, originally reported as food poisoning.

The Provincial Public Health Office, the Office of Epidemiology, the Communicable Disease Control and Prevention Center, Maharaj Nakhon Chiang Mai Hospital, the Institute for Forensic Medicine, forensic police and Chiang Mai Provincial Police are all involved in the cases.

Thai authorities said the cause of death in two cases was still not clear; Mrs. Waraporn Yinghasawanont, 47, a Thai tour guide who checked in and stayed at the hotel February 2. After sightseeing tours to Doi Suthep the previous day, she was found dead in the morning of February 3 in front of the bathroom in her hotel room. Doctors reported that she had asthma and Pol. Col. Montri Sampunnanont, the Deputy Chiang Mai Provincial Police Commander told the Chiang Mai Mail that she had been seen with labored breathing and that might be the cause of her death.

When dying of poisoning in one way or another it is not unusual to have trouble breathing is it? (regardless of having asthma)

However, Dr. Paskorn Arkarasewee, the Director of the Office of Epidemiology said the real cause of the death of the guide Mrs. Waraporn had not been determined and that the cause of death of Sarah Carter, the New Zealand tourist, was still unclear.

The docter agrees the cause of death is unclear

A Chiang Mai Muang District Police said that Ms. Sarah Katherine Carter, 23, a student from New Zealand traveled from Phuket to Chiang Mai and checked in to the hotel on February 2 with two friends. On February 3 they were found seriously ill with vomiting and nausea so the hotel staff called an ambulance to take them the hospital for treatment where, on February 6, Sarah Carter died. The other two girls also ill, eventually recovered and returned home.

The three of them poisoned. What do the survivors have to say about this? Have they been questioned?

Dr. Derek Bunnachak of the Medical Faculty of Maharaj Nakhon Chiang Mai Hospital told Chiang Mai Mail that bacteria might be a cause of food poisoning. Dr. Pasakorn of the Epidemiology Office said they were seriously sick, with bad stomachaches and vomiting, and Miss Carter may have gone into shock from this. "This was really a rare case."

He said that it "might" be food poisoning, based on the symptoms. We can all imagine many causes that "might" have caused it, what is the value of this statement ??

He added that the primary diagnosis suspected the E Coli bacteria caused by unclean food. "However, samples were sent for further examination in both the United States and Japan to find the real cause," confirmed Dr. Pasakorn Arkaraseree, Director of the Epidemiology Office.

Provincial Public Health Office Deputy Head Dr. Surasing Wisarutrat said the case will not be concluded until all test results are in. Doctors confirmed that they did not eat seaweed as earlier reports suggested.

The Governor expressed his sadness and concern over the death of the young New Zealand girl, "Thai authorities are looking hard at the case to find the cause and we will inform formally and immediately the family members through the New Zealand Embassy.

what does that mean? "looking hard at the case" ..?

He spoke on behalf of Thai authorities that "We are very much concerned and definitely look after all visitors to Chiang Mai." He has ordered government officials to step up inspection of all food shops, restaurants and hotel services to ensure food cleanliness.

Who jumped to conclusions that food poisoning was the cause? That it was an accidental poisoning of all these people?

Chiang Mai Police then reported that the elderly British couple, Eileen and George Everitt who checked into the hotel on February 9. They were scheduled to check out February 19 but when they did not appear, staff called their room and then entered the locked room with a master key after they had not answered the phone. There they found the couple dead, Eileen Everitt, age 74 on the bed and George Everitt, 78, sitting near the bed.

Police found no evidence of a break in, no signs of illness or vomiting, no drugs or poisonous substances in the room. It is believed the couple died on February 17 or early morning the 18th since they did not appear for breakfast on the 18th. Doctors reported that both couples suffered from severe blockage of the arteries that resulted in a coronary thrombosis.

[chiangmaimail]2011-03-09[/chiangmaimail]

My point is, to which extent is the theory of some psychopath murderer investigated? Clearly, these people have been poisoned, ether on purpose or not on purpose. The investigation seems to be actively looking for an accidental cause of poisoning (food or whatever).

Nowhere I see this case being treated as a potential serial killer case. There could be some employee randomly poisoning something in this hotel. Have they looked at who worked and who was staying in the hotel at the time of the poisoning?

Partly, the hotel belongs to ChiangMai Governor's Family. Who dare to sealed the hotel? This is political sh*t. They can't do much cos' the system is rather rusty. To get things goin' in Thailand, it ain't that easy. i don't know I live here and I am happy with it. *-*

[Ulysses G.]

Heck we still can't even get the facts on David Carradine dying in Bangkok.

He was "flying the kite" and suffocated. Now the facts are out. :jerk:

[anterian]

"

Hmm... ok, if you actually do research. In general no Virus can act that fast, within a few hours to produce symptoms, Virus' generally take longer for symptoms to show up, and then are persistant while your body attempts to fight it off. This all has to do with immune response.

Bacterial infections are different and can cause serious illness much faster than viral infections as a number of bacteria produce enterotoxins which are excreted during their replication and growth. This is the biggest issue with bacteria and not the actual bacterium themselves.

One example is:

staphylococcal enterotoxin B agent: Staphylococcus aureus symptoms: acts in 3-12 hours; produces chills, headache, and high fever (up to 106 degrees) for several days death: incapacitating but rarely fatal.

although most can be treated, botulism is generally one exception which can kill quickly, yet other people have known to survive.

Toxic shock syndrome is probably one of the more severe reactions to Staphylococcus which can kill in hours. Have a read about it.

http://en.wikipedia...._shock_syndrome

How about instead of people just blurting garbage, you actually make sure what your saying is fact, instead of assuming and DO SOME RESEARCH FIRST.

Whether or not a bacterial 'food poisoning' occuerred here is very hard to tell, assuming all the symptoms, etc of the individuals has actually be accurately disclosed. Not saying there possibly isn't an issue with the hotel, but we honestly don't know.

AND no it can't be cyanide, cyanide prevents your blood cells binding to oxygen, so you would essentially internally suffocate, which the girl in hospital before dying did not.

It certainly sounds like a bacterial toxin, which is why someone young died and her friends survived. As bacterial toxins don't act dependent on the immune system like Virus' do and hence why they can be so deadly to anyone of any age.

The old people, now thats a mystery, but certainly not improbably that one died and the other died later due to their age.

The old people and the girls you can possibly explain (as two seperate accounts), but having the third thai tourist guide, means it is likely connected to the hotel, or by chance they all at at the same place that day.

Was there any suggestion that the girls and the tourist guide where familair with each other?

Yes, I have also studied science, but clearly I learnt something during when I studied.

Well now if we are going down the toxin path I would go for a plant toxin rather than bacterial, beans are a common component of Asian diet, and these are rich sources of toxins, from ricin in castor oil beans to

Phytohaemagglutnin (Kidney Bean Lectin). This toxic agent is found in many species of beans, but it is in highest concentration in red kidney beans (Phaseolus vulgaris).

The syndrome is usually caused by the ingestion of raw, soaked kidney beans, either alone or in salads or casseroles. As few as four or five raw beans can trigger symptoms. Several outbreaks have been associated with "slow cookers" or crock pots, or in casseroles which had not reached a high enough internal temperature to destroy the glycoprotein lectin. It has been shown that heating to 80 degrees C. may potentiate the toxicity five-fold, so that these beans are more toxic than if eaten raw. In studies of casseroles cooked in slow cookers, internal temperatures often did not exceed 75 degrees C..

The problem with toxins being the cause of death is that although they act within a few hours, they all involve nausea and vomitting, which seems to have been absent.

Anaphylactic shock would seem a better candidate for sudden death, In the majority of anaphylactic shock incidents, the culprits are shellfish or peanuts, both feature prominently in Thai cuisine.

P.S I'm glad to hear you have studied science, many of my students have "taken" science rather than "studied" it

[jfchandler]

What place was she staying when she fell ill???

NO, this is NOT a coincidence, and they need to look beyond the hotel. My good friend Soraya Vorster, aged 33, died on january 10, 2011 in Chang Mai of the same thing. She wasnt staying at this hotel but her death was the same. There needs to be a thorough investigation on why this is happening. Its literally a case of life or death, this could happen to more people and we need to find out why!

[LomSak27]

Looks like they are trying desperatly to obfuscate. Unfortunatly that appears all too similar to what happend with the deaths in Phi Phi.

When you have a track record like that people assume you guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Good Luck Chiang Mai Governors family and TAT.

[jfchandler]

Partly, the hotel belongs to ChiangMai Governor's Family. Who dare to sealed the hotel? This is political sh*t. They can't do much cos' the system is rather rusty. To get things goin' in Thailand, it ain't that easy. i don't know I live here and I am happy with it. *-*

I believe, it's not the family of CM's governor, but rather, the family of the former mayor of CM, who is the uncle of the current mayor of CM, that are owners of the company that operates the hotel involved and quite a few others...

To think the Thai authorities would close the Downtown Inn, or even part of it, is wishful thinking. They didn't close the Laleena Guesthouse with the various tourist deaths there, never did, which apparently was owned by nobody particularly important... And it's pretty unlikely they'd do that in CM under the circumstances.

I'd imagine avoiding any conclusion that blames the hotel or its operators would be pretty high on the local priority list.

'

[Steely Dan]

Looks like they are trying desperatly to obfuscate. Unfortunatly that appears all too similar to what happend with the deaths in Phi Phi.

When you have a track record like that people assume you guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Good Luck Chiang Mai Governors family and TAT.

They will continue to delay and obfuscate and the problem will be buried, it always has been in the past. I can see why the Thai authorities treat outsiders like idiots because we deserve nothing better as there is never the will or coordination between effected parties to obtain satisfactory answers from the Thai authorities under pain of consequences serious enough to force someone to take ownership of the issue.

I am referring here to diplomacy at international level not the attempts of bereaved to get answers, as they are serially let down by those who purport to represent them.

[jimbeam1]

Looks like they are trying desperatly to obfuscate. Unfortunatly that appears all too similar to what happend with the deaths in Phi Phi.

When you have a track record like that people assume you guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Good Luck Chiang Mai Governors family and TAT.

They will continue to delay and obfuscate and the problem will be buried, it always has been in the past. I can see why the Thai authorities treat outsiders like idiots because we deserve nothing better as there is never the will or coordination between effected parties to obtain satisfactory answers from the Thai authorities under pain of consequences serious enough to force someone to take ownership of the issue.

I am referring here to diplomacy at international level not the attempts of bereaved to get answers, as they are serially let down by those who purport to represent them.

That just about sums it all up.

People can talk about all the conspiracy crap until they are blue in the face. It doesn't stand for anything, never has, never will. This case/investigation is all but over. Although it is likely to carry on for maybe a couple of weeks. Things have to be seen to be done, then it will just fizzle out. Unless of course one of the Embassies of the victims, activly gets involved and starts demanding proper answers? For sure that will not be the British Embassy.

jb1

[creck]

A coincidence.

Interesting documentary on History channel the other day titled "Race and Intelligence".

Saw the show and the one glaring fact is that intelligence grows with the need for it to grow.

This means that when a community progresses, so must their intelligence. If you hold down a community, lets say by using financial oppression, then the intelligence does not need to grow.

Humans are born with the largest developed brain of all animals, according to the relative size of their body. This brain is not completely wired up, and needs stimulation to become the best it can be. Although there are physiological restraints caused genetically, this does not account for the huge disparity found in this country. It is my belief that this disparity is caused by the fact that so many people here in Thailand live well below any poverty line across the world, and as such do not have the stimulation needed to develop their brain to it's fullest potential. Can this problem be fixed?

I am interested in any intelligent comments, please post.

Although you are going off topic:

Frankly, I would have thought that trying hard to survive at or below the poverty line was an excellent stimulus to the brain.

As opposed to having everything set up for an easy life. In the easy life, ones brain can easily atrophy. Brains, as you say, like muscles, need to be worked to develop. If you are driven to think - how can I survive? - it must be good for the brain.

[dancw3]

I was a cop, a detective at that, and I've met a fair share of Thai "detectives" in the last few years.Spent hours talking with them.

Simply put, they generally possess a total lack of even rudimentary training and couldn't detect an elephant in a life raft.

So, in many cases, it's not that they are "covering something up," it's that they lack the skills, techniques, experience and facilities to uncover anything. Therefore it is easier to claim it a coincidence than to admit they are stymied, and are clueless as to what to do next.

It's more the old "saving face" thing than mai pen rai.

Without even speaking to any so called detective, i have to agree with you.

I do not think there even is a police academy or detective school, i do not think they have forensic labs, if they do, i doubt its well equipped or even equipped at all(just look at police stations and police vehicles, including bikes)

Autopsy cost money(which again they do not have or do not want to spend) and again may not have properly trained staff, just look at public hospitals, some docs can not even diagnose appendix.

So its no alternative but to declare every death as suicide or accident, unless its so clear, that they simply can not make such a statement, but then the killers are hardly every found,unless police is tipped off

TAT--this is only another 4 that won't be coming back through Swampy. But with 40 million +--who cares.

Don't know why you picked apendicitis as an example, but it is often difficult to diagnose. Its mis-diagnosed in some of the best hospitals in the USA also. Easy to cure, but not to diagnose. Also, though I have no personal experience, some expats swear by the public hospitals here, really like them and think they give good care.

[andrewdrummond]

<br />The count is up to five. Not the same hotel but TAT better get a hold on this.<br /><a href=' class='bbc_url' title=''>http://www.thaivisa....-the-5th-death/</a><br />

<br /><br /><br />

This update highlights one of the major great coincidences but of course things are still as clear as mud

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2011/03/10/chiang-mai-deaths-the-escalating-controversy/

[stevensdling]

You certainly missed the multiple suicides in a short timespan in pattaya several years ago where the victim had a plastic bag over his head,taped around his neck and his hands tied behind his back.

Please tell me you re joking

[Steely Dan]

You certainly missed the multiple suicides in a short timespan in pattaya several years ago where the victim had a plastic bag over his head,taped around his neck and his hands tied behind his back.

Please tell me you re joking

Welcome to the forum newbie.