18 Yr-old Dutch Woman Raped In Phuket

[cdnvic]

I hear the same "she was asking for it" crap all over. No civilized country condones it, and no civilized person should be making excuses for it either.

cv

[TukTukDriver]

I'm not condoning it at all. I'm just saying that women should watch out, what works in the west may not work in Thailand.

[DisainaM]

IF SHE WAS RAPED THEN FOR GOD SAKE GIRL STICK TO YOUR CONVICTION AND HAVE THE GUYS CHARGED

... "you like to smoke some dope ? Ok let`s go in my room"

High on drug, unable to resist, they had sex,

may be, she didn`t realized, what she was doing,

but when the second guy arrived,

the whole thing become violent.

as I mentioned, its not about the Dutch habbits, its about the the legal feeling of the girl.

She was growing up in Holland, where it is legal, to consume soft drugs, like mariuhana, you just go to your local drug dealer, if he has an offical drug dealer degree, or a coffe shop.

So, she thougt, whats wrong, to consume in Thailand, but the story went wrong.

After the police report, she knows, what will happen with her,

if the guys will report on the drug consume.

Thats the reason, she wants to stop it now.

[WISteve]

"The ravings of an insecure closet-queen attempting to act butch to impress the boys.

Probably hoping to be next!"

Judge, I think you might feel differently if it was your sister, your girl friend ...or daughter.

So what did the last lady do to you to "DESERVE" a blackeye or a beating?

Until you open your eyes and realize that rape is an act of violence, not a sex act, you will never have a clue.

There is not a woman in the world that has EVER done anything to deserve to be beat.

I'm an admitted monger. But violence against women is always wrong.

Maybe the Thais have it right? If the victim had been thai the brothers and uncles wouldn't have gone to the authorities, they would fixed these two little sh*ts right off. But I personally don't look for a violent solution to violence. I'd rather see them rot in a hole somewhere for their crimes.

Just quit trying to rationalize rape.

It just pisses off people who have had family victimized in the past.

~WISteve

[solo siam]

as I mentioned, its not about the Dutch habbits, its about the the legal feeling of the girl.

She was growing up in Holland, where it is legal, to consume soft drugs, like mariuhana, you just go to your local drug dealer, if he has an offical drug dealer degree, or a coffe shop.

So, she thougt, whats wrong, to consume in Thailand, but the story went wrong.

After the police report, she knows, what will happen with her,

if the guys will report on the drug consume.

Thats the reason, she wants to stop it now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry but EVERYONE knows that drugs are VERY ILLEGAL in Thailand and what the possible consequences are. No-one just jumps on a plane to fly half way round the world without knowing.

Oh and Marijuana is not LEGAL in holland, its de-criminalised, you can still get arrested for smoking it on the street etc...

[meemiathai]

But I personally don't look for a violent solution to violence. I'd rather see them rot in a hole somewhere for their crimes.

Not that I disagree with what have been said, just that I find this funny.

[StateSix]

as I mentioned, its not about the Dutch habbits, its about the the legal feeling of the girl.

She was growing up in Holland, where it is legal, to consume soft drugs, like mariuhana, you just go to your local drug dealer, if he has an offical drug dealer degree, or a coffe shop.

So, she thougt, whats wrong, to consume in Thailand, but the story went wrong.

After the police report, she knows, what will happen with her,

if the guys will report on the drug consume.

Thats the reason, she wants to stop it now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't looked at this thread for a while and cant be bothered to go back through the whole 11 pages, but has it actually been confirmed that she was taking drugs with these guys. I thought it was just a suggestion from someone as to why she went back to his room. Anyway arent most coffee shops in Amsterdam filled with tourists. It isn't as though every Dutch person is a pothead.

... "you like to smoke some dope ? Ok let`s go in my room"

High on drug, unable to resist, they had sex,

may be, she didn`t realized, what she was doing,

but when the second guy arrived,

the whole thing become violent.

Are you defending the guy here? I am a little confused as to what point you are trying to make. It sounds like pre-meditated rape in this instance. Takes the girl to his room, gets her high so she is "unable to resist" and "didnt realize what she is doing".

I can understand why she would not want to press charges. The trial will be who knows when, in a foreign court in a foreign language, and I imagine that the Thai legal system is not rape victim friendly. She will have been traumatised by the rape itself without having to relive it again in a year or so. It would be bad enough having to do so in a western court where at least she would have some sort of protection from intimidation etc. I would guess she has decided to try and put the ordeal behind her and get on with her life. Fair play to her, it is her decision.

[BlackJack]

i cant believe it

my contibution to this was censored

UN

BELIEVABLE

and i see all the posts about Toxin and censorship

hypocrites

[The_Moog]

No way is Thailand going to allow its lucrative tourist industry to be smeared by a 'he said, she said' case like this going throught the Courts. Not after the Kanchanaburi double-murders.

As soon as she made her statement, she must have been told a conviction would not be forthcoming on the basis of the admissions in her deposition.

Much emotional gobbledegook being spouted on this topic along the usual 'how would you feel if....' lines.

Case closed. Move on people.

[Judge]

"The ravings of an insecure closet-queen attempting to act butch to impress the boys.

Probably hoping to be next!"

Judge, I think you might feel differently if it was your sister, your girl friend ...or daughter.

So what did the last lady do to you to "DESERVE" a blackeye or a beating? 

Until you open your eyes and realize that rape is an act of violence, not a sex act, you will never have a clue.

There is not a woman in the world that has EVER done anything to deserve to be beat.

I'm an admitted monger.  But violence against women is always wrong. 

Maybe the Thais have it right?  If the victim had been thai the brothers and uncles wouldn't have gone to the authorities, they would fixed these two little sh*ts right off.  But I personally don't look for a violent solution to violence.  I'd rather see them rot in a hole somewhere for their crimes.

Just quit trying to rationalize rape.

It just pisses off people who have had family victimized in the past.

~WISteve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please get some reading glasses.

I am certainly not promoting rape or violence against women, in fact I'm railing against it.

I think that you confused my post with the one that made me so angry.

Go bother him!

[sriracha john]

i cant believe it

my contibution to this was censored

UN

BELIEVABLE

and i see all the posts about Toxin and censorship

hypocrites

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing hypocritical about it at all, really. The difference being that people are justifiably upset by Mr. T censoring others with a different take on politics... while your censoring seems to be based upon silencing someone with a different take on humanity itself.

Limiting the right of free speech for those outside our species is a long-established tradition, rather akin to making incessant barking at night by dogs against the law.

[cdnvic]

Censorship is when a publication is forbidden by law to publish truthful statements. When a media outlet chooses to enforce standards of good taste in its own domain, it is called editing.

cv

[DisainaM]

... has it actually been confirmed that she was taking drugs with these guys.  I thought it was just a suggestion from someone as to why she went back to his room.

...

Are you defending the guy here?  I am a little confused as to what point you are trying to make.  It sounds like pre-meditated rape in this instance.  Takes the girl to his room, gets her high so she is "unable to resist" and "didnt realize what she is doing". 

I can understand why she would not want to press charges.  The trial will be who knows when, in a foreign court in a foreign language, and I imagine that the Thai legal system is not rape victim friendly.  She will have been traumatised by the rape itself without having to relive it again in a year or so.  It would be bad enough having to do so in a western court where at least she would have some sort of protection from intimidation etc.  I would guess she has decided to try and put the ordeal behind her and get on with her life.  Fair play to her, it is her decision.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most of the comments are based on suggestions, but why shouldn`t we exclude, that the girl isn t a victim ?

No, I`m not defending the guys, if they had the purpose to rape the girl,

but if not,

if this case isn`t a black and white case of rape,

but a case, where everybody lost selfcontrol in a drug action,

I can`t be sure, if the girl is a victim of rape in legal sense.

May be, the girl played the teasing game, and had fun with the first guy,

but didn`t agree with the second guy.

Cause everybody was high on drugs, nobody could communicate clear, what they want.

Can you imagine, how many ppls, just grown up,flying the first time to Thailand, just thinking about movies, like "The Beach", and fullmoon parties on Kho Phangan, they are totaly naive, when they come in contact with young thai men.

In our culture, we know, if a girl says no, she means no.

In Thailand, if a woman says no, but proofing by her actions, that she means the opposite,

the thai man understands no just as a Looh-Len action.

[StateSix]

May be, the girl played the teasing game, and had fun with the first guy,

but didn`t agree with the second guy.

Cause everybody was high on drugs, nobody could communicate clear, what they want.

Can you imagine, how many ppls, just grown up,flying the first time to Thailand, just thinking about movies, like "The Beach", and fullmoon parties on Kho Phangan, they are totaly naive, when they come in contact with young thai men.

In our culture, we know, if a girl says no, she means no.

In Thailand, if a woman says no, but proofing by her actions, that she means the opposite,

the thai man understands no just as a Looh-Len action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still sounds to me like you are blaming the girl. Someone seemed to be 'communicating clearly' when they gave her a black eye. Again, I will ask why do you assume she was high on drugs?

If a women says no and the man does it anyway then that is rape. I dont care what the culture is, it is wrong. It doesnt matter what she does beforehand either. She could tease you all she wants, but the second she says no you have to stop.

JMHO

[DisainaM]

Still sounds to me like you are blaming the girl.  Someone seemed to be 'communicating clearly' when they gave her a black eye.  Again, I will ask why do you assume she was high on drugs?

If a women says no and the man does it anyway then that is rape.  I dont care what the culture is, it is wrong.  It doesnt matter what she does beforehand either.  She could tease you all she wants, but the second she says no you have to stop.

JMHO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are poor in facts in this case, but we know the girls action,

- consensual of entering the guys flat on nighttime.

We only know the girls point of view, but that doesn`t mean, that there couldn`t be another part of the story.

Before making up the mind, I think, we shouldn`t exclude the possibility, that the girl is only a victim in her own mind, but not in the legal sense.

So trying to find the other part of the story, we started suggestions,

and I suggest,

that they started a drug party,

that they started consensual sex,

that she realised, during consensual sex, that she is on drug, and that she doesn`t want it, so she started with violence,

that the second guy couldn`t understand, why she attacked him, during a started consensual sex, so he responded to her violence, and gave her a black eye, and also stopped the consensual sex.

So, is she a victim in this suggestion , at least, we doen`t know.

So I`m not blaming the girl, just on my suggestions, cause I only want to show, that these "poor on facts - cases" are not ready for judgements.

To your cultural point of view,

"If a women says no and the man does it anyway then that is rape. I dont care what the culture is, it is wrong. "

The member of this board are coming from different nations, and every nation defines the legal meaning of rape different in their juridical system.

In Thailand, what you say, isn`t often, what you mean, - word and matter are not the same.

Cause the action of a girl is understand in their cultural habits, the interesting question would be, if a thai girl is entering a flat of a (nearly) stranger at nighttime, could that already mean in thai law, she is willing for consensual sex ?

[sriracha john]

Still sounds to me like you are blaming the girl.  Someone seemed to be 'communicating clearly' when they gave her a black eye.  Again, I will ask why do you assume she was high on drugs?

If a women says no and the man does it anyway then that is rape.  I dont care what the culture is, it is wrong.  It doesnt matter what she does beforehand either.  She could tease you all she wants, but the second she says no you have to stop.

JMHO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are poor in facts in this case, but we know the girls action,

- consensual of entering the guys flat on nighttime.

We only know the girls point of view, but that doesn`t mean, that there couldn`t be another part of the story.

Before making up the mind, I think, we shouldn`t exclude the possibility, that the girl is only a victim in her own mind, but not in the legal sense.

So trying to find the other part of the story, we started suggestions,

and I suggest,

that they started a drug party,

that they started consensual sex,

that she realised, during consensual sex, that she is on drug, and that she doesn`t want it, so she started with violence,

that the second guy couldn`t understand, why she attacked him, during a started consensual sex, so he responded to her violence, and gave her a black eye, and also stopped the consensual sex.

So, is she a victim in this suggestion , at least, we doen`t know.

So I`m not blaming the girl, just on my suggestions, cause I only want to show, that these "poor on facts - cases" are not ready for judgements.

I agree we don't know all the facts in the case and in such situations we are left with conjecture on what is plausible and what is less plausible. While anything might be plausible in this case given our limited knowledge of the factual events, I believe your scenario above is less plausible than what has been stated by the women in the case. In my view, she was most likely raped. That is my opinion and as such we are all entitled to believe what we may based upon our experiences, our knowledge of typical behavior, and what we believe is plausible in a given situation.

[StateSix]

Still sounds to me like you are blaming the girl.  Someone seemed to be 'communicating clearly' when they gave her a black eye.  Again, I will ask why do you assume she was high on drugs?

If a women says no and the man does it anyway then that is rape.  I dont care what the culture is, it is wrong.  It doesnt matter what she does beforehand either.  She could tease you all she wants, but the second she says no you have to stop.

JMHO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are poor in facts in this case, but we know the girls action,

- consensual of entering the guys flat on nighttime.

We only know the girls point of view, but that doesn`t mean, that there couldn`t be another part of the story.

Before making up the mind, I think, we shouldn`t exclude the possibility, that the girl is only a victim in her own mind, but not in the legal sense.

So trying to find the other part of the story, we started suggestions,

and I suggest,

that they started a drug party,

that they started consensual sex,

that she realised, during consensual sex, that she is on drug, and that she doesn`t want it, so she started with violence,

that the second guy couldn`t understand, why she attacked him, during a started consensual sex, so he responded to her violence, and gave her a black eye, and also stopped the consensual sex.

So, is she a victim in this suggestion , at least, we doen`t know.

So I`m not blaming the girl, just on my suggestions, cause I only want to show, that these "poor on facts - cases" are not ready for judgements.

To your cultural point of view,

"If a women says no and the man does it anyway then that is rape. I dont care what the culture is, it is wrong. "

The member of this board are coming from different nations, and every nation defines the legal meaning of rape different in their juridical system.

In Thailand, what you say, isn`t often, what you mean, - word and matter are not the same.

Cause the action of a girl is understand in their cultural habits, the interesting question would be, if a thai girl is entering a flat of a (nearly) stranger at nighttime, could that already mean in thai law, she is willing for consensual sex ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very, very implausible story. They started a drug party......She started consensual sex......she realised she was on drugs.....she started violence. In your scenario you are blaming the girl - she started this, she started that. Why dont you explain the same scenarion from the guys point of view. We went to smoke some pot, she was giving me signals, I started to kiss her and have sex with her. She started getting crazy and hitting us. I punched her. The same scenario, takes account of the 'cultural differences' you mention but does not lay any blame at the womans feet.

I think you will find most civilised countries define rape the same way - non consensual sex. There are differences, for example in Thailand rape is defined as sexual intercourse by force with a woman who is not ones wife. This means you cannot rape a man (or katoey as legally they are classed as male) or your wife. Unbelieveable. However in this case this is irrelevant.

You bring up a scenario about a Thai girl entering a flat of a (nearly) stranger at night time, and ask the 'interesting' question about whether Thai Law would interpret that as she is willing for consensual sex. I assume you are tring to ask the question that if she made an allegation of rape would Thai law say the act of entering a strangers house at night be interpreted as consenting to sex. This may be used as a defence ie she entered the house willingly and she had sex consensually and, in the absence of any forensic evidence such as bruising etc, may lead to an aquittal. However the law says rape is forced sexual intercourse. Whether she entered the house willingly is as irrelevant and stupid as saying she was wearing a short skirt and was 'asking for it'.. Was force used to have sex with her? In this case a black eye and bruising, as there allegedly is, indicates so.

Having sex with a woman against her will is absolutely wrong. I dont care what the 'culture' is. And if you dont agree with that then you have serious problems.

[sbk]

Well, I think this has been done to death now. Just the same old arguments being recycled over and over. All is pure speculation at this point since the case is now closed.

So is this thread.