American Visa Denied

[ajarntrade]

I tried to get a tourist visa for my BF to go with me for 2 weeks to visit my family in America. We have been together for 1 1/2 years. We live together. I've lived here in Thailand for over 2 years. I have a work permit and work for one of the top 5 private Catholic schools in all of Thailand. He works as a waiter and earns 6000 baht a month.

I paid the 4000 Baht. I got all the paperwork in order. we went and stood in line for hours.

Denied.

Reason given:

1. He is a waiter.

2. He earns only 6000 baht a month.

3. He only has a 2 year work history.

My BF is 27 years old. He was a Monk and lived in a Temple for 12 years, he has no other work history.

I have a feeling that there are MANY other Americans out there who have had their BFs tourist visas denied, maybe not for the REAL reasons given.

Can we get together and ask our congress people to do an inquiry into the % of gay people denied tourist visas from Bangkok? I've heard numbers as high as 70%, doesn't that seem unreasonably high?

I don't really know where this thread is heading or what I really want to accomplish... I just think it's not fair.

ajarntrade

[Ijustwannateach]

Maybe this is more of a question for the expertise of the VISA section, though I can understand why you would post it here rather than there.

As far as I'm aware, generally speaking they want to be sure that your BF has more reasons to remain in Thailand than he does to go to the U.S.... this would apply to straight, unmarried couples as well (and even the married ones often have to wait a year or two after the marriage)- or he would have to have a history of going out of Thailand and returning according to the conditions of his visas.

As a suggestion, try to go on a few trips with your BF to nearby countries- Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia- where it's not so hard for him to get in. Make sure you don't overstay, and build up a history of him coming back to his job in Thailand. That may help, and during that time he will build up a better working history (one or two more years at the same place) and your relationship with him will also have another year or two under the belt. Take pictures wherever you go and keep the pairs of tickets, reservations, etc. to show that you are an actual couple.

If you reach that point and they're still not letting you in- why not try to go to Canada first? Canadian immigration has been instructed that they'd better not discriminate (they've been told they would be disciplined if they did) on the basis of sexual orientation, so they follow exactly the same rules for straight and gay couples. I bet with a trip to Canada and back on his passport, your BF would be *much* closer to getting into the U.S.

I know it isn't fair and isn't easy, and we gay Americans should have an equivalent to marriage. But we don't, and so in the meantime this is what we have to do. Here's hoping a change is not too far off.

"Steven"

[Scott]

The last post is right on target. I used to work under an Embassy contract, so had plenty of experience with this subject.

I took a BF to the states years ago. He was only 18 at the time, no job, no money (but was going to University). A friend who was a counsel officer said don't even both to apply. We did, however and he got a visa. (No officer that knew either of us could do the interview).

Afterwards, I asked the same officer if he could discreetly find out how/why he got a visa. He talked to the officer, who told him that it was refreshing to interview someone who was honest, didn't make any pretenses and answered all the questions.

Interesting about 2 years ago, same BF applied--now earning about 40,000 B. a month, has a car, works for a U.S. firm, has traveled extensively in Asia and Europe--and he got turned down. Counsel officer said he didn't have enough money in the bank. The officer said he thought he needed more money in his bank account to fund his trip.

It's up to the interviewing officer and post 9/11, they can be pretty strict.

I think at 27 and being a waiter, your BF may have a ways to go before he gets a visa. They look at work history and regular earnings (it doesn't work to have a one time big deposit of money in the account).

Good luck--and that's what it is. Very much up to the officer. (By the way, quite a few of them are/(were) members of our "club").

[ChrisP]

I agree with ajarntrade and this post generally. I have the same problem.

For a start, I am trying to find out - under the Freedom of Information Act - what percentage of US Tourist visa applicants for 2004 aged 18-30 were refused.

I hear BKK Embassy refuses 65%+.. generally (not just gays) but I have no proof yet.

After that I intend to write to Rice et al. pointing out the unfairness and inequality - The listed Visa Waiver countries can get practically anyone a US Tourist Visa entry.. even someone with no money! - but that non-Visa-Waiver countries cannot send any young, single tourists (unless they are extremely wealthy (even by American standards..). The law is written so that they are "assumed to be guilty of intent to overstay" unless they can prove otherwise..

And that while the USA claim to welcome people from all countries to "experience America and its culture", then take the information back home, .. this is clearly not the case.

Read this related topic:

Fortress America article...

Not sure it will do any good if it's just me.. but if MORE people write and point it out.....

I am trying to get my bf a sponsored Tourist Visa to the UK first.

More soon.

ChrisP

[ProThaiExpat]

The "change" IJWT speaks of most certainly will not come during this administration.

The OP isn't clear where he wants this thread to go. If he is directing his inquiry toward gays traveling from Thailand to the U.S. for a visit, accompanied or unaccompanied by a American Citizen and whether there is an anti-gay bias among the Thais staffing the visa section of the Embassy or the counsulate, you have an inponderable.

OP's suggestion that 70% don't make it, is in my view. a low estimate.

Young, low income Thai men are high up on the list of those who have a strong motive to overstay their visas and work for high wages in the U.S.

I agree with IJWT that travel to other countries and return to Thailand, especially Australia, is a proven track record that there is indeed a "compelling reason to return" which is the criteria all are measured by.

I think that the criteria currently being applied is so strict that turn downs never approach the issue of sexuality.

The American Chamber of Commerce has quoted many billions of lost dollars to decreased tourism as a result of the current misquided policy. Multinational companies have been complaining for years that this policy is severly hampering their ability to compete in world markets as their executives from overseas can't attend U.S. based business meetings.

It is unfortunate that visas are the purview of the Department of State, an executive branch of the U.S. government with little congressional power of oversight, as it works largely within the executive branch's sole power to deal in foreign affairs. Likewise, the courts don't even have the power to judge actions by the "reasonableness" test applied to other governmental exercises of discretion.

If visas weren't within the purview of the Department of State, in todays world they would be within the Department of Homeland Security, which would be even worse, in my view.

Just read the thread started by ChrisP and the problems this man of distinction and citizenship has in entering.

It will take a economic depression, a change of administration and a turn around in the march toward totalitarianism in the guise of "security", before young Thais will ever get a chance to visit the U.S. in my view.

[frodo77]

I cannot understand why IJWT thinks its easier to get a tourist visa to Canada than the US. Its just as difficult as the same principles apply. It has nothing to do with being gay or straight. However, for a Permanent Resident visa, its not as difficult as long as you prove a relationship. Even then, it took over 2 years for my bf to get his PR visa to Canada.

[Ijustwannateach]

At least one good friend of mine (an American) chose to immigrate to Canada because of their more liberal laws when he was finished with living in Thailand. It was from him that I found out that Canadian immigration was TOLD not to discriminate, or else. In other words, if there were some suspicion, Canadian authorities would have to justify their decisions to ban a disproportionate number of gay couples compared to straight couples. I don't believe American immigration works under such a directive, and American laws and government culture are certainly more gay-unfriendly at the moment.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

My best friend is an American citizen living in the USA, but born in China. His partner is Chinese and illegal; in six years there's been no way for him to get legal in the USA. They applied to Canada and the partner is there permanently, working legally, earning his right to become a Canadian citizen and then get married to my friend.

For a tourist visa, Canada may be very strict, although I'd be surprised if they're as strict as the USA. But it appears that for immigrants, Canada is more tolerant than the USA. Not in the sense of tolerance toward sexual orientation (although that's true), but Canada being a bit more open to letting in foreign workers.

Back to the original post - as IJWT and others say, it's very unlikely your boyfriend will get a tourist visa to the USA this year. Sorry.

[astral]

A sad indictment of the "land of the brave and the free".

Put it down to all the people before your bf who have abused the system!

[slapdashkitty]

Sorry but really do not think it is a "gay" issue. Stories abound here of visa denials to all countries reguardless of sexuality.

[MyNameIsFarang]

Can we get together and ask our congress people to do an inquiry into the % of gay people denied tourist visas from Bangkok?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And where exactly would they start such an investigation? None of the application forms for any visa request the applicant to indicate sexual orientation, I am quite sure.

[RhodeIslandRed]

This whole issue is very disturbing. No it is not a gay issue. I know of two seperate incidents where young Thais have been denied visas. Immigration seems to think that they will not return to Thailand once they get to the USA, or they are skipping out of the country. And yes it is easier to get a visa to Canada than the US.

[frodo77]

Quote

And yes it is easier to get a visa to Canada than the US.

I repeat, as a Canadian, that it is definitely NOT any easier getting a Tourist Visa to Canada. I know quite a few Canadians that have tried unsuccessfully to get their bf's tourist visas, and some of these Thais had good jobs, money in bank etc. The visa officer's decision is entirely discretionary and no reason for denial has to be given.

[Erwin1011]

In my company, US based, we used to have two company world wide meetings in the US. After 9/11 we have given up this tradition of 25 years, as it was virtually impossible to get staff (+ their significant others) into the country.

My last visit, 1.5 years ago, was such a shamefull experience at immigration that I notified my company that under no circumstances I would attend any further meetings in the US. I attend now by video conference from home. (Saves money, avoids humiliation and provides peace of mind)

[ChrisP]

The problem is not just for gay USA Tourist visa applicants. The problem is that the Immigration Law is written in such a way as to "assume you are guilty unless you can prove you're innocent...":

Section 214 is part of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). It states:

Every alien shall be presumed to be an immigrant until he establishes to the satisfaction of the consular officer, at the time of application for admission, that he is entitled to a nonimmigrant status...

To qualify for a visitor or student visa, an applicant must meet the requirements of all sections of the INA respectively. Failure to do so will result in a refusal of a visa. The most frequent basis for such a refusal concerns the requirement that the prospective visitor or student possess a residence abroad he/she has no intention of abandoning. Applicants prove the existence of such residence by demonstrating that they have ties abroad that would compel them to leave the U.S. at the end of the temporary stay. The law places this burden of proof on the applicant.

Unfortunately the officers at the US Embassy has obviously been told to take a take a VERY strict view of this Act, and demand unreasonable "proof of ties".

So...No "back-packer" tourists wanted in the USA..... we now only approve the ones with money..... the Hi-So.

Btw, even American Tourists have less money in their bank accounts than the US Embassy expects to see in a Thai bank account.

ChrisP

[jimchicago]

I'm in the US and my BF lives in Bangkok (Thai). Trying to figure out the best approach to get him a tourist VISA (good luck I know!) ....is it advisable/helpful for me to accompany him to his interview, or should that be avoided at all costs? Would a letter from me be helpful (e.g. he can stay with me; I can provide room/board, etc)? many thanks for your input

[Buki]

The same delimma around the world. It really depends on the interviewer. There were a lot speculations about denied visas, a friend told me that embassy's have a certain quota in a week, so it is not advisable to go on a friday afternoon, which I thought was preposterous and rediculous.

Even having student status, leaving behind properties, working experiences, having a family behind are not enough reasons for them for them to approve the applicants visa. Having a relative living back in the states could favor you or sometimes can go against you. What I know is the fastest way for my countrymen to going to the US, is when you are employed in the health services like nurses and caregivers, because I think there are an agreement with the American government and my country and other countries as well. Try to know if there are existing agreements for specific work force that is needed and Thailand can produce them. Or if you live in a state that has legal marriages/ legal partnership laws, the partner must either go home and establish proof that your bf is your fiance. I am not sure if these would work, it worked for my country and in Europe.

As for Canada, try to inquire about a certain "points" (they accumulated point system for applying immigrants) where your bf can apply in immigrating to Canada. There are points for education qualifications, work experience and longivity of work and many more. I don't know if they still have that system here.

I don't if these would help... there is no harm in trying.

Edited February 19, 2006 by Buki

[PeaceBlondie]

The same delimma around the world. It really depends on the interviewer. There were a lot of speculations about denied visas, a friend told me that embassy's have a certain quota in a week, so it is not advisable to go on a friday afternoon, which I thought was preposterous and ridiculous.

...What I know is the fastest way for my countrymen to going to the US, is when you are employed in the health services like nurses and caregivers...

Lots of good points there, buki. As for nurses, my part of the USA (Texas) is full of Filipino nurses. A friend of mine founded a chapter of the Filipino Nurses Association. But that's a special category of WORKER who can get a green card to work as a nurse, legally. Tourist visa is a whole different category, which a sizeable number of foreigners abuse to get to the USA and start working, illegally. 27 percent of all physicians (MD) in the USA are foreign born.

Many of the Thai boyfriends (and girlfriends, of the straight farang in Thailand) are not nurses or doctors or Ph.D.'s in computer manufacturing. The USA, officially, doesn't desperately need more waiters, room cleaners, and store clerks; it doesn't even think it needs tourists at the lower end of the earnings scale, who have lovers in the USA.

Having been a tax interviewer/auditor for the federal govt., I agree that it depends upon the mood of the interviewer. It also depends upon the interviewee(s). Officials are full time interpreters of whether the applicant is lying, and they are experts at knowing the requirements. Telling the truth, being prepared for the interview, having the right documents and the right history, are essential.

[Ijustwannateach]

I know a young man (*cough, cough*) who is currently working on building up a travel history with his newish partner to the places Thais can more easily go- Singapore, Hong Kong... I imagine that with enough stamps and returns to Thailand, plus some sort of excuse about why he needs to return, they'll finally give him a visa to the E.U. or the States.

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

I have friends with "Sponsors" $$ and acceptance to Unis that cannot get Visas to the USA ... and one friend that works in the IT field that cannot. However most of my other friends can and have been. The difference is that none of my other friends are "renters" or live at home.

They all own houses and cars.

I don't think it is unreasonable to have these restrictions. (I do think it sucks ... just is not unreasonable.) When you can reasonably expect Thai guys to be able to make at least $10 an hour in the USA ... that's 60k baht a month ... 4 to a room .... low expenses ... and that's a bucket load of money (compared to here in Thailand ... 60k a month is more than most guys with PhD's make here.

Again .. I think it sucks. But as far as tourist spending goes ... how much is a guy making 12k a month going to be spending of his own money in the USA? There just seems no up-side at all to issue the tourist visas that we all would like to see issued. My friend can go, he fits the profile, but I have some other friends that I would love to take along for a quick tour with us .. and those guys will probably never go.

[PeaceBlondie]

jdinasia, lots of good points, but one thing sticks in my craw: illegal immigrants to the USA cannot expect to make at least $10 an hour, full time, because they're illegal, without green cards or social security numbers. In fact, that's 69,000 baht per month. I couldn't make that much in my own field, with experience, before coming to Thailand! That's a long story, but I used to tell Mexicans who wanted to emigrate to the USA, "No, you won't make $8 an hour, and everything's much more expensive than it is back home."

Two cases in point, although they are just two anecdotes: my lazy, artistic, gay Thai friend just spent 8 years in America and has returned to Thailand just AFTER finally getting his green card. In those 8 years, he earned 2.5 master's degrees and earned virtually no money, living off his rich, White, closeted boyfriend. Another gay, bright, Thai young friend just returned from America after a few disastrous months in a small town, unable to work, unable to eat edible food by Thai standards, with a new boyfriend that still lived at home at age 38!

It's rumored that a high percentage of Thais who do get tourist visas overstay (check elsewhere on the visa forum). I agree that we can't really blame the Immigration people in Western countries for enforcing rules that are more or less reasonable.

Edited February 20, 2006 by PeaceBlondie

[Buki]

I think US government policies are getting tougher these days. They definitely a lot tougher to counntries who may have the possibility to overstay. There are so many issues that are still tackled back in the states about illegal aliens / TNTs who are getting jobs and other previleges (free education from one particular state), that made some locals really angry. They argued that those privileges should be for their people and these people are pushing lobbyist to policy makers to strengthen some laws on immigrants and the US borders coz a lot of Americans are losing jobs to illegal aliens who would willing to earn rediculously low wages just to get a long.

[jdinasia]

jdinasia, lots of good points, but one thing sticks in my craw: illegal immigrants to the USA cannot expect to make at least $10 an hour, full time, because they're illegal, without green cards or social security numbers. In fact, that's 69,000 baht per month. I couldn't make that much in my own field, with experience, before coming to Thailand! That's a long story, but I used to tell Mexicans who wanted to emigrate to the USA, "No, you won't make $8 an hour, and everything's much more expensive than it is back home."

Two cases in point, although they are just two anecdotes: my lazy, artistic, gay Thai friend just spent 8 years in America and has returned to Thailand just AFTER finally getting his green card. In those 8 years, he earned 2.5 master's degrees and earned virtually no money, living off his rich, White, closeted boyfriend. Another gay, bright, Thai young friend just returned from America after a few disastrous months in a small town, unable to work, unable to eat edible food by Thai standards, with a new boyfriend that still lived at home at age 38!

It's rumored that a high percentage of Thais who do get tourist visas overstay (check elsewhere on the visa forum). I agree that we can't really blame the Immigration people in Western countries for enforcing rules that are more or less reasonable.

I don't know that your anecdotes are typical, but hey;-) I know guys in Denver (2 of them) working at a Thai restaraunt, in the city I moved to Thailand from ... both are students. One cooks and the other is a waiter. Niether are supposed to work in the US and both make WAY over $10 an hour. Granted that this is not a city that has an INS office that focuses on any groups but Mexicans and people from Arab countries. So, in your cases ... case 1 makes sense while going to school ... and case 2 is just kinda sad. Both of the guys I know were guys that I visited on a weekly basis just to eat and practice Thai with. They did well!

[PeaceBlondie]

jd, you're right that my anecdotes don't provide a sample of average, typical immigrants to the USA. My best friend worked as a waiter while on a student visa, and made over $10 per hour later, when he got his MS. His lover, however, was illegal and finally worked his way up to making that much, after being scammed by a Chinese 'employer' in Houston.

As for illegal immigrants taking jobs away from willing and able American citizens, I doubt there's much of that. Most of the Hispanic immigrants I knew in three countries weren't skilled laborers, and they were sometimes taken advantage of, paid substandard wages, etc.

And after 9/11, we have the war hysteria taking over and making the government even more insane than it was previously.

[orchis]

Couldn't the catholic school you work for, write a letter of recommandation for your boyfriend's visa?

Edited February 22, 2006 by orchis

[Buki]

Couldn't the catholic school you work for, write a letter of recommandation for your boyfriend's visa?

Would a catholic school recommend a referal for their teacher's homosexual boyfriend's visa?

[ProThaiExpat]

"Fortress America" under George W. Bush is almost non-discriminatory in its exclusion of tourists and business people, let alone "bashing" citizens returning from overseas as ChrisP has reported.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has been castigating the administration for a few years now, estimating that over 4 billion dollars of revenue a year has been lost by the travel industry due to the excluision of travellers in the business sector alone. Multi-national corporations have suffered greatly as their executives are denied visas as a matter of course.

Small comfort, but as long as an administration uses a perceived external "threat" to security as a mask for its own agenda, visas will be few and far between.

The last definitive report on the Mexican "day laborer" standing on street corners to get work, indicates the INS is not concerned with apprehending illegals, since it is fully involved in "combating terrorism", whatever that means.

I learned in my first visa attempt for my Thai to Australia, being fully forthcoming regarding our relationship was the key that turned around the initial rejection. My conclusion was that if the relationship is interdependent and of proven standing over some time, the motivation to return with the falang to Thailand after the visit is highly likely.

On the other hand, if I was an Australian living in Australia, the same presumption would not apply. Thus, an American living in America raises the contrary presumption for a Thai b/f visiting America and that being the Thai would overstay his visa inorder to be with his lover.