Emergency: Am I Here Legally? Please Help!

[balat]

Hello guys, please offer immediate advice if you have it. I have read some related posts on your forum, but nothing exactly like my situation.

I am 25 years old, and a US citizen.

I entered Thailand for the first time ever for a week in September 2010 on a plane from Vietnam.

I returned to Thailand for a few days in October, twice.

I then returned to Thailand on 20 November 2010 and I have been here ever since.

On 17 December 2010 I received a "90 day" stamp from Pattaya Thai Immigration Office after paying a 12,000 baht fee, approximately.

Therefore my current stamp in my passport says I'm allowed to stay in Thailand until 17 March 2011.

HOWEVER, I'm very confused after reviewing the US State Department overview of Thai law.

It says that REGARDLESS of any stamps etc, you aren't allowed to stay in Thailand more than 90 days for each 6 month period.

Does this mean my "90 day stamp" was illegal to begin with? I can't legally have stayed in Thailand 90 days after my last official entry of 20 November 2010?

1) am I here legally, technically speaking?

2) if I try to leave Thailand on 16 or 17 March 2011 (tomorrow or the day after tomorrow) will they fine me or arrest me for being here more than 90 days from my last official entry (claiming perhaps that my "90 day stamp" is illegal or something like that)?

3) is there any chance I could do a border run or any type of re-entry to Thailand, or have I already been here too long and should wait for a few months to return to Thailand?

In addition, I just received a new US passport from the US embassy in Bangkok. This complicates matters. I'm not sure how to proceed. I have read many stories with different answers. Should I forget about my new passport right now, and simply leave Thailand immediately and show them my stamps in my expired passport?

THANK YOU MUCH, I'm shitting bricks right now after reviewing these laws again. I assumed I could trust Pattaya Thailand Immigration Office, but now I'm not sure anymore.

Edited March 15, 2011 by balat

[beechguy]

There is no rule that you can only be here 90 days in a six month period, when there was it didn't apply to people with a visa.

Take the new passport to immigrtion and have the appropriate information transferred from the old one.

Edited March 15, 2011 by beechguy

[Mario2008]

To say the least your situation appears to be unclear. Did you pay 12,000 to pattaya Immigration or to an agent?

You seem to have gotten an extension of stay for 90 days, and it is unclear what for. Did you arrive with a visa in Thailand or did you get a 30 day stamp at the airport?

The US state department information you quote is wrong. Yes, you can get a tourist visa or double entry tourist visa form a neighboring country and return.

[balat]

Thanks for the initial replies you guys.

@beechguy, are you saying the "90 days only during 6 month period" law is no longer in existance?

http://travel.state....s/cis_1040.html

In either case, if you have entered Thailand without a visa, you cannot remain in Thailand for more than 90 days during any six-month period, counting from the date of first entry. After 90 days, you must apply for a new visa at a Thai embassy outside of the country.

Because that is what the US State Dept. seems to say on their website above?

@Mario, I paid 12,000 baht to a trusted lawyer friend of a friend, and it is 100% a stamp from the Pattaya Immigration Office.

It is not a visa, it is an extension stamp for 90 days. I arrived in Thailand without a visa, so yes, as a US citizen I got a 30 days stamp at the airport when I arrived on 20 November 2010.

So are you guys saying ultimately this "law" about 90 days doesn't exist?

As long as I leave Thailand before 17 March 2011, I may return immediately after crossing any border and get a new 2 week stamp (or 4 week stamp if I fly out)?

What do you mean by "tourist visa" don't you need to apply for a tourist visa at a Thailand embassy in a foreign country (not in Thailand)? How many days would that be for?

THANK YOU guys.

Edited March 15, 2011 by balat

[beechguy]

Thanks for the initial replies you guys.

@beechguy, are you saying the "90 days only during 6 month period" law is no longer in existance?

http://travel.state....s/cis_1040.html

In either case, if you have entered Thailand without a visa, you cannot remain in Thailand for more than 90 days during any six-month period, counting from the date of first entry. After 90 days, you must apply for a new visa at a Thai embassy outside of the country.

Because that is what the US State Dept. seems to say on their website above?

@Mario, I paid 12,000 baht to a trusted lawyer friend of a friend, and it is 100% a stamp from the Pattaya Immigration Office.

It is not a visa, it is an extension stamp for 90 days. I arrived in Thailand without a visa, so yes, as a US citizen I got a 30 days stamp at the airport when I arrived on 20 November 2010.

So are you guys saying ultimately this "law" about 90 days doesn't exist?

As long as I leave Thailand before 17 March 2011, I may return immediately after crossing any border and get a new 2 week stamp (or 4 week stamp if I fly out)?

What do you mean by "tourist visa" don't you need to apply for a tourist visa at a Thailand embassy in a foreign country (not in Thailand)? How many days would that be for?

THANK YOU guys.

Yes, I'm sure of that, as I said that law only applied to people entering on a "Visa Exempt" entry and that law was repealed in late November, 2008. Also, you are correct, Tourist Visas are obtained at Consulates outside of Thailand. A Tourist Visa would allow an entry of 60 days, can be extended 30 days for 1900 Baht. At some Consulates you can request a double entry which would allow you to do that 2 times.

I would be interested on what basis the lawyer applied for and received an extension of stay for you.

Edited March 15, 2011 by beechguy

[TacoBoy]

Your running on short or overtime of your stay. It is your responsability to adhear to time rules of Visa's and stamps.

You need to go immediately in the morning to Thai Immigration to have your visa and stamp transferred to your new passport.

You also need to leave the country by the last day of stay allowed in your passport. So arrange transport to a boarder run or flight out.

Do not over state your case to immigration. Just ask for them to transfer your visa stamp, and not say how you got the stamp etc unless they quesion you in detail. Do not offer any info unless they are persistant and have you detained. If they do, be honest and tell them the truth. Be prepared to tell them, who you got your 90 day extension stamp from. An agent outsde Pattaya Immigration, or an officer there within the official offices.

Best advice is to not say anything to immigration unless you are interrogated by them. Many times they ask just routine questions about your stay and visa's. Just give simple answers unless you know you are being interrogated.

If your extension of stay is an illegal or forged stamp, they may and can arrest and detain you. Best to comply with them if you did not intend to get your visa stamp by fraud. But be prepared to tell them who did the visa for you.

[transam]

12000 bht, ,

yeh, you need friends like that like a hole in the head.

[TacoBoy]

There is no 90 day rule that has been enforced or could be pertaining to Thailand or stays in any other country by the US State Department.

Don't worry about whatever you read about 90 days stay. The notice simply says that you need a new visa or appropriate stamp upon expiration of any visa or stamp obtained on arrrival.

You need to get your visa transferred to your new passport, deal with that and get your affairs in order to leave on time.

Sounds cut and dry unless you are detained. Then you need to tell them about your lawyer friend.

Edited March 15, 2011 by TacoBoy

[balat]

@beechguy, okay that is good to know (that the "only 90 days per 6 months" law is null), so I guess the US government website is very outdated which is surprising in the post 9/11 era to be honest.

@TacoBoy, thanks for the reply and advice on speaking with the Immigration folks. (To clarify, I do NOT have a visa at all, I never had a visa. I entered Thailand on 20 November 2010 and got a 30 day stamp. On 17 December I got a "90 day extension stamp" which says I can be in Thailand until 17 March 2011.)

Anyway... if this "90 days only" law is not true anymore, I guess the only REAL question is what I should do exactly if my goal is staying in Thailand longer for around one more month. The concern I have is that it seems these "90 day stamps" are sketchy to begin with. Now that I have a new passport AND I'm wanting to stay in Thailand longer, I just have a feeling there are going to be problems/harassment even if my 90 day stamp was technically legal.

To clarify another thing, I'm sure I could find a last minute cheap-ish flight to Vietnam or something and try to get a 60-day tourist visa for Thailand as you mentioned, but I'm trying to find the simplest (and most legal) way to stay here just another month without spending tons of time or money.

It sounds like the consensus so far is that:

a) I don't need to worry about being in Thailand more than 90 days per 6 months

b. As long as I have an official stamp from Thai Immigration, then I'm here legally

c) I just need to make sure to get the hell out of the Thai border before 17 March 2011

d) At that point I can get a new entry stamp for Thailand regardless of how I return

e) I should transfer over my current "entry stamp from 20 November 2010" and also my "90 day extension stamp from 17 December 2010" to my new passport BEFORE leaving Thailand or doing a visa-run

If anyone has additional information, advice, or corrections to these conclusions, please reply ASAP I would greatly appreciate it.

Right now I will plan to visit Thai Immigration tomorrow and ask them to simply transfer over items mentions in #e to my new passport, and then make arrangements to do a visa-run on 17 March 2011 (it is the last valid day for me in Thailand, that is okay right? Or must I do the visa-run on 16 March 2011)...

CHEERS guys.

Edited March 15, 2011 by balat

[Mario2008]

You do not seem to qualify for an extension of stay, for which you had to convert to a non-immigrant visa first. (Which would have costed 2,000 baht). Maybe immigration did convert, although it is not clear based on what.

[beechguy]

If you only need another month, the most simple thing is to fly out, and immediately return by air. You do not have to be outisde for a specific amount of time, and that would get you another 30 day visa exempt entry.

[lopburi3]

It sounds as if a false medical certificate may have been used in order to obtain a 90 day extension for treatment. As you are not just leaving but have to have your current permitted to stay stamp transferred it stands more of a chance to be questioned than for others. There is no indication on your stamp as to the reason it was issued?

[TacoBoy]

Since your old passport is expired, the stamp or current visa must be transferred to your new passport by Thai Immigration.

As for staying longer now, best to travel out of Thailand and get a Double entry Tourist Visa.

Consult the visa threads for which Thai Embassies and Consulates will give a double entry tourist visa. If that is not possible, then you may qualify for a single entry Tourist Visa since you say you don't have any previous tourist visa's.

Probably a good idea not to show anyone your now expired passport other than to immigration to get the info transferred. Nothing improper about that, as your current stamp will be transferred into your new valid passport, and the old passport will become null and void.

You can do border runs every 14 days, but that will get old quick.

A stamp is just another form of putting a Visa in your passport. There is visa on arrival, transit visa, retirement visa, extension of visa, and on and on.

All the immigration stamps and or paper visa's are all a Visa and show validity of an arrival and stay.

And if questioned don't say much, just tell immigration you are leaving. Nothing more needs to be said unless they detain you.

This is not legal advice, only my opinion from being there before and dealing with officials.

Edited March 15, 2011 by TacoBoy

[balat]

After reading some of the follow up comments, I think I'm buying a ticket tonight and heading back to the US tomorrow, 16 March 2011.

I don't have enough cash if they are going to fine or arrest me, so I'm going to try and get the hell out of Dodge tomorrow guys. I'm scared shitless after reading these comments.

I'm starting to worry about what exactly this 90 day extension stamp is that I have... it is definitely from the Immigration Office but it sounds like I don't even qualify for it.

For crying out loud...

Edited March 15, 2011 by balat

[lopburi3]

All the immigration stamps and or paper visa's are all a Visa and show validity of an arrival and stay.

They are permission to stay stamps or extensions of that permission to stay. Consulates issue the visas except for those made in the change of status procedure from a non visa entry.

[Tod Daniels]

I can't be the ONLY person to think this is quite a "difficult to read" post.

Still, reading what I could out of the O/P's posts, it would seem (however he paid it to be) he HAS a permission to stay stamp until at least 17 March 2011. (BTW: which is SOON to arrive)!

Fly out, fly in again, receive a 30 day 'visa exempt stamp", walk out; walk in, and it’s a 15 day stamp (really 14 days!!). He can do the math, or figure it out.

Now how the O/P got a 90 day extension of stay and for what reasons (who really knows or cares??). BUT if it is a REAL stamp, he's okay leaving and re-entering.

Now if it's a spurious stamp, no one knows how it will play out. .. NOT even the O/P ..

AND YES, a note to the O/P: get your “permission to stay until” stamp transferred to your NEW passport BEFORE you leave Thailand. It doesn’t cost even a single baht! As in, "stamp transfers" are FREE!.

Even then, when you leave, still take your old passport with you when you go, so Thai Immigrations can see the “paper trail” from one passport to the next one..

Good Luck. ..

Post back on how it all worked out 4 U, huh?

[TacoBoy]

After reading some of the follow up comments, I think I'm buying a ticket tonight and heading back to the US tomorrow, 16 March 2011.

I don't have enough cash if they are going to fine or arrest me, so I'm going to try and get the hell out of Dodge tomorrow guys. I'm scared shitless after reading these comments.

I'm starting to worry about what exactly this 90 day extension stamp is that I have... it is definitely from the Immigration Office but it sounds like I don't even qualify for it.

For crying out loud...

Balat, stop worring so much. You have to have the stamp transferred to your new passport officially, or it is no good.

You will most likely be fine when the immigration transfers your info into the new and valid passport.

You can not leave without transferring the valid stamp.

If the stamp is good and is issued by Thai immigration then should not be a problem no matter what the thai attorney did to obtain it for you. If there is a problem, best to refer back to the attorney that got the stamp for you.

A hastle yes, but should not be a big deal for you legally.

Just a side note. Once your new passport has a valid stamp, no need to show the old expired passport. Everything in the old passport is null and void for validity of stay purposes.

The new stamp from Thai immigration will suffice as a paper trail. Yes you must show your old passport and stamps to thai immigration to have info transferred. Keep the passport for your records or tyour home country only after that.

Edited March 15, 2011 by TacoBoy

[lopburi3]

The paper trail is entered into the new passport along with the transfer of permitted to stay so there is no need for old passport on departure.

[TacoBoy]

i am not saying agents are not legitimate, but be cautious if you decide to use an agent.

Lesson for the OP and any others that decide to use an "Agent" to take care of their Visa issues.

Signs are posted at all immigration offices about agents and persons soliciting to take care of a visa for you.

You never know if what you get is the real deal.

So beware.

Edited March 15, 2011 by TacoBoy

[balat]

Thanks for the continued pieces of advice.

I think you and another friend of mine have the best advice - ask the lawyer to take care of the stamp transfer for me, and have them ask about how I need to leave/return to Thailand legally in order to stay here for another few weeks or month. This way I will be able to avoid harassment hopefully, and also receive more clear answers as to my legal status and where I should go from here.

Tomorrow morning I will have them take care of this for me and see what Thai Immigration says. If there seems to be problems, I'm going to purchase a ticket back to the US and leave 17 March early morning or even 16 March late night if possible.

Otherwise hopefully I can get the stamps transferred no problem, and head to Cambodia for a visa run on 17 March and get a 2 week stamp.

I will definitely post back with further updates, THANKS GUYS.

p.s. after reviewing some posts, I realize some of you were suggesting I did something purposefully illegal to obtain this 90 day extension stamp. In fact I did not. A lawyer friend of a friend stated they had contacts in Thai Immigration and had a high success rate of getting 90 day extensions for tourists, so I paid them, that's all. Even after researching laws and stories all evening I still don't know exactly where the law stands with all of this stuff in Thailand, which in my view speaks to the level of unpredictability of Thai officials and ever-changing "laws"... but point noted, this is a learning lesson when dealing with paperwork or agencies anywhere in Thailand ... unfortunately from the other stories I read on here, it sounds like the government is just as unpredictable.

Edited March 15, 2011 by balat

[TacoBoy]

Would be nice for the OP Bilat to update status after going to Immigration.

Nobody suggested the OP did anything illegal. Think people were only trying to tell the OP to be careful when not dealing directly with any Embassy or Immigration office.

It is best to take care of things yourself, not rely on others. It all can be done personally by you as long as what you are asking for is legal and within the rules.

Of course, money does talk in LOS :jap:

[balat]

UPDATE: As promised, here is the update.

I went back to the lawyer friend of a friend agency and for less than 1,000 baht they re-visited Thai Immigration in Pattaya for me, and got all my stamps transferred to my new passport without any problems. On March 17, I visited the Cambodia border with a "visa run" service that cost 2,000 baht and no problem there either. The police didn't even ask to see my "old" passport, they just stamped my exit stamp, I got my Cambodia visa (included in the "visa run" price) and then got my re-entry stamp valid for 2 weeks.

For any other Thailand newbies or worriers out there, here are some additional facts:

- Any time you get a 90 day extension stamp in Thailand, is it technically because you are "sick" apparently... as someone noted above, but I didn't understand (there is a Thai law permitting foreigners to stay in Thailand for "sick emergencies" such as medical procedures). Anyway, apparently Thailand STILL DOES expect all visitors to leave the country ever 90 days no matter what, even if you have a one year visa. So the law mentioned on the US State Department website is technically still true. I met a UK expat on my visa run who has a one year business visa, and he still must visit the border occasionally to "check in" with Thai Immigration a few times a year. The lawyers etc who offer this 90 day stamp renewal service have "friends" in Thai Immigration who give you this 90 day stamp for a high price. Yes, it is a legal stamp, and really it is a legal loophole in Thai law to allow you to stay longer than your 30 day or 15 day entry stamp originally permits you. However, apparently it is a constant headache for the government folks in Bangkok, and they constantly tell the Immigration offices around Thailand to "slow down" with the 90 day stamp offers. EVERYONE in Thailand from low to high seems to get a cut of the cash, so they are all fine with this "fake sick" thing as you can't really disprove it anyways. It just depends on if they have recently been commanded to "slow down" or not with the 90 day stamp offers. Note: paying around 12,000 baht for a 90 day stamp would be the same price as visiting the Cambodia border every 15 days for the same period of time. I think it is worth it. However, if you do "acquire" a 90 day stamp, it is HIGHLY recommended to leave the country when the stamp expires and re-enter Thailand with a "normal" stamp or "normal" tourist/business/retirement visa to avoid any confusion or conflicts with police, etc... at that point, according to people I talked to, you can try again to get the 90 day stamp if you want.

- All the visa runs around Pattaya cost 2,000 baht, however fun fact: you can save 200 baht if you tell them you "don't want lunch" and then you can buy lunch for only 30 baht

- The visa run to Cambodia was an extremely stress-free experience... the border was calm, almost empty, and our driver was very friendly and helpful... I tipped him for that

- To confirm, YES, it is totally fine to "leave" or re-enter Thailand on the last day of your stamp, but is just highly discouraged because of unpredictable weather, border status, etc.

- DON'T OVERSTAY your visa especially if you recently got a new passport, received a 90 day "fake sick" stamp or any other situation... they keep raising the fines (sometimes jail)... not worth it

...cheers guys and thanks for the help. Hope all the information in this thread helps someone out.

Edited March 23, 2011 by balat

[TacoBoy]

Thanx for the update balat.

So we won't need to bake you a cake

Thought you would be fine anyhow.

BTW hope your recovering nicely now.

Edited March 23, 2011 by TacoBoy

[beechguy]

Good to see a follow up report, and glad you didn't have any problems. But you are still apparently confused by the U.S. State Department statement, they are not technically correct.

The U.K. gentleman you mentioned apparently had a one year multi-entry Non-immigrant "B" Visa valid for one year. That means the Visa is valid to be used for one year, and upon each entry the person will be stamped permitted to stay for 90 days. The only way to legally stay in country longer is to obtain a one year "Extension of Stay", that is not a visa.

Edited March 23, 2011 by beechguy

[Mario2008]

It is no legal lop hole, it is an abuse of the rules for an emergency extension in case of illness. It is simply fraud and you sign for the correctness of your statements and papers when you apply for the extension and can be prosecuted for making a false statement.

Staying contunously on these 90 day extensions will increae the risk that people start asking questions and you take the fall.

[Sophon]

- Any time you get a 90 day extension stamp in Thailand, is it technically because you are "sick" apparently... as someone noted above, but I didn't understand (there is a Thai law permitting foreigners to stay in Thailand for "sick emergencies" such as medical procedures). Anyway, apparently Thailand STILL DOES expect all visitors to leave the country ever 90 days no matter what, even if you have a one year visa. So the law mentioned on the US State Department website is technically still true. I met a UK expat on my visa run who has a one year business visa, and he still must visit the border occasionally to "check in" with Thai Immigration a few times a year. The lawyers etc who offer this 90 day stamp renewal service have "friends" in Thai Immigration who give you this 90 day stamp for a high price. Yes, it is a legal stamp, and really it is a legal loophole in Thai law to allow you to stay longer than your 30 day or 15 day entry stamp originally permits you. However, apparently it is a constant headache for the government folks in Bangkok, and they constantly tell the Immigration offices around Thailand to "slow down" with the 90 day stamp offers. EVERYONE in Thailand from low to high seems to get a cut of the cash, so they are all fine with this "fake sick" thing as you can't really disprove it anyways. It just depends on if they have recently been commanded to "slow down" or not with the 90 day stamp offers. Note: paying around 12,000 baht for a 90 day stamp would be the same price as visiting the Cambodia border every 15 days for the same period of time. I think it is worth it. However, if you do "acquire" a 90 day stamp, it is HIGHLY recommended to leave the country when the stamp expires and re-enter Thailand with a "normal" stamp or "normal" tourist/business/retirement visa to avoid any confusion or conflicts with police, etc... at that point, according to people I talked to, you can try again to get the 90 day stamp if you want.

Don't kid yourself that the extension you got was legal or even a "legal loophole". Yes, there is a provision that makes it possible to get an extension of your stay if you are sick and unable to leave the country, but that requires a statement from a doctor that he has examined you and deem you unfit to travel. Since you were not sick, nor were you examined by a doctor, your extension was achieved by corruption which makes the extension 100% illegal and invalid. I am not suggesting that you were aware of this, but now that you are you should think very serously about it before you go down that route again.

But since there is a provision to get legal extensions for medical reasons, the risk that someone finds out that yours were not "kosher" is very remote. It would probably only happen if someone higher up the food chain launched an investigation, which could happen if they notice an unusual number of medical extensions being granted by certain immigration officers. And if found out the consequences could be serious not only for the officers but also for the people getting these extensions under fake pretences. There was a similar thing happening about decade ago with people getting their passports stamped in and out of the country wthout leaving the country, and it didn't end well for as lot of people. And their is a campaign at the moment to combat corruption, so even if you think that it is only meant for show and not to be taken serious, they will still have to show results from time to time.

But congratulations on the smooth transfer of stamps and visa run. I know you didn't know what you did was illegal, so I'm happy it didn't land you in trouble (which wasn't very likely in the first place). But I think you should consider it a case of "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" and not try your luck doing it again.

The rest of your comments about only being able to stay in Thailand 90 days at a time are not correct (or at least far to general). There are many provisions for staying in Thailand more than 90 days without having to leave (extensions of stay for work, marriage, retirement, education, having a non immigrant OA visa), but these are probably not relevant in your case.

Sophon

Edit: I see Mario beat me to it, I wll have to write a shorter reply the next time

Edited March 23, 2011 by Sophon

[moe666]

Depending on the type of visa you have you may be required to leave every 90 days but on a extension of stay for retirement or marriage you just go to immigration every 90 days for a address check. Please get your facts straight before posting incorrect information.

Where you sick and did you really meet the requirements for your 90 day extension of stay if not you did recieve a 90 day extension of stay illegally. By definition you broke the law as well as the lawyer.

[lopburi3]

No such stamp is legally obtained and there is always a chance that the stamp itself is false (has has been the case on Cambodia border recently). And if/when found out it will likely be the user of such services that take the heat (you can not be transferred to an inactive post). Such activity is correctly called corruption and there are active agencies investigating such (as well as sections in most government departments). I would strongly advise against any use of such shortcuts.