Thailand's 'iron Lady' Pressured To Resign

[penzman]

Don't be too sure that Thaksin isn't applauding her, deep within himself. ...

And sensible businessman always want corruption reduced, to zero if possible. It limits their possibilities of being really, really sucessful businessmen, because it is a 'wild card' that they can't allow for in their planning.

Sorry but I think this is wildly unrealistic and inaccurate in the case of Thailand, and Thaksin in particular. You've only got to look at how his extraordinarily rapid rise to billionaire status came about to realize which corner he's in.

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Spot on! Martin - you should read the book by Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit "Thaksin - the Business of politics in Thailand". That will make you think twice about writing what you did above.

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Great book!

Have a look at Mr T. and family's statement of assests in 2001. What a joke... (p.247). The kids had five times more fortune (15 billion) and assets than dad did (5 billion). I just don't want to know what the numbers are by now

[Abandon]

Curious - I saw this article in Yahoo news, and thought I would post it over to the forum. Because I have done this before when articles are hidden in phuket forums and such, I did a search for [ iron lady] and the article did not show. i tried Iron Lady, 'iron lady' 'Iron Lady' and a few others just now, and the article still will not show up on the google search function.

Maybe it takes a few days for Google to register a new post ??? Or maybe I should just rely on the Eagle eyes George to pick everything up without my 'help'....

[Johpa]

I think I read somewhere that Khunying is the most important decoration a woman can receive here, anybody has more info on this ? (what does it represent exactly ?).

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Khunying is about the only title a commoner woman can get. It can be obtained for actually doing some good deeds but is more commonly given for enduring a wealthy but pitiless husband who spends most of his free time with his mia nois who are usually younger than his own daughter. The latter can often be identified by their buffont hairdos and ample figures.

[marquess]

I belive that a woman can be made Tanphuying, which is higher.!

[Rinrada]

No it means the same as a Khunying.It sounds as though its higher or above but really its just the same.

Some people might use the expression to give it a little more...whatever....but...

If you are the lady of the house your amah might call you "khun nai" which sounds a bit similar but again khunying is of course a Royal Award.

I am always making that mistake with the wifes granny who is of course a "khun ya"but she is very forgiving

Only found out recently that one of our nieces is a "na ayutthaya" due to her dad being a "mom luang" but thats all a bit... mai ko jai.....

[dr_Pat_Pong]

No it means the same as a Khunying.It sounds as though its higher or above but really its just the same.

Some people might use the expression to give it a little more...whatever....but...

If you are  the lady of the house your amah might call you "khun nai" which sounds a bit similar but again khunying is of course a Royal Award.

I am always making that mistake with the wifes granny who is of course a "khun ya"but she is very forgiving

Only found out recently that one of our nieces is a "na ayutthaya" due to her dad being a "mom luang" but thats all a bit... mai ko jai.....  

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Sorry Rin. This time you are wrong. Tun Poo Ying is a much higher title.

[drummer]

Don't be too sure that Thaksin isn't applauding her, deep within himself. ...

And sensible businessman always want corruption reduced, to zero if possible. It limits their possibilities of being really, really sucessful businessmen, because it is a 'wild card' that they can't allow for in their planning.

Sorry but I think this is wildly unrealistic and inaccurate in the case of Thailand, and Thaksin in particular. You've only got to look at how his extraordinarily rapid rise to billionaire status came about to realize which corner he's in.

Any sensible businessman will always want everyone to follow the rules - BUT HIM.

Adam Amith was a sharp guy, but he didn't consider evrything. Corruption is a preferable way to business all over the world. In America, we have bridges being built to Nowhere, Alaska, and government regulations worded so as to narrow the funding competition for off-shore oil drillingdown to 1 company. Halliburton has the US gov't in over 2 billion dollars in overcharges and completely missing and unaccounted for funds- and thats just the current audit.

Really, business doesn't give a hoot about laws (people do, but not business) - its profit margins that matter. Laws only matter in how they affect the bottom line.

[drummer]

She is already given a tittle "Khunying".  The thing is this government is abusing the King powers.  The King doesn't talk, he acts.  First when she was appointed as Audit General, the King gave her a royal medal.  Pretty much like a gift from him.  After she's sacked, the King gave her another medal!  Think about it.  Why the King did that?  The King doesn't talk, he acts.

Toxin and his MPs and senators must revise their decision.  Otherwise all of them will have no country to live.

Golf 

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fully agree with you Golf! Every patriotic Thai should be supporting her, as she is trying to make the country better.

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Absolutely agree. Another cultural difference here - back where I come from there would be a smear campaign to make her look like she's part of the problem going on.

[Rinrada]

Interesting clarifications.....

Princes and Commoners

The 'princes'

Holders of these titles are still considered royal as they are at most two generations down from a king.

Collectively, those who are children of a king are called "Loog Luang" (ลูกหลวง -- 'royal children') and those who are grand-children of a king are called "Laan Luang" (หลานหลวง -- 'royal grand-children').

In English translation, they are normally called "princes".

Special forms of language are also used when one wishes to speak to them, although the language is less elaborate than when speaking to the king or the queen. A male Loog Luang who does not accede to the throne would also start a new royal surname, which normally reflects his birth name (as oppose to honorific name given later).

The surname can be used by his wife if she is a commoner by birth, possibly with Na Ayutthaya added if she has no noble title.

It is otherwise not normally used until his children or grand-children first hold the title of Mom Chao, when the surname will first appear in their names.

Chao Fa

Chao Fa (เจ้าฟ้า) is the most senior class of the royal family after the royal couple. Traditionally, their mother must be a princess.

Holders of this title actually consist of two classes:

Chao Fa of the First Class (เจ้าฟ้าชั้นเอก -- Chao Fa Chan Aeg). These are the princes/princesses born to the queen or to a royal consort who is also a Loog Luang.

They would traditionally be referred to as "Tunkramom Chai(m)/Tunkramom Ying(f)" (ทูลกระหม่อมชาย/ทูลกระหม่อมหญิง), although nowadays they are more commonly called Chao Fa.

Chao Fa of the Second Class (เจ้าฟ้าชั้นโท -- Chao Fa Chan Tho). These are the princes/princesses born to a royal consort who is also a Laan Luang.

They would traditionally be referred to as "Somdej Chai(m)/Somdej Ying(f)" (สมเด็จชาย/สมเด็จหญิง).

Phra Ong Chao

Phra Ong Chao (พระองค์เจ้า) is a lesser class of the princes than Chao Fa. They could be either:

Phra Chao Boromawong Ther Phra Ong Chao (พระเจ้าบรมวงศ์เธอ พระองค์เจ้า)

These are the princes who are Phra Ong Chao by birthright, including:

* Children of a king and a Chao Chom Manda (a consort who was born commoner).

* Children of a Chao Fa and a princess (Chao Fa, Phra Ong Chao, or Mom Chao Ying).

Phra Worawong Ther Phra Ong Chao (พระวรวงศ์เธอ พระองค์เจ้า).

These are Mom Chao whom the king granted this higher title, either as a recognition to their merit, or as a special favour. Example of this includes Phra Worawong Ther Phra Ong Chao Nakkatra Mongkol Kromma Mhun Chandaburi Suranat, father of Queen Sirikit, who were born Mom Chao Nakkatra Mongkok Kitiyakorn (note that his surname is omitted now that he became a Phra Ong Chao).

This title is however personal, and their children would still be treated as children of a Mom Chao (i.e. inherit the title of Mom Rajawongse rather than Mom Chao).

Mom Chao

Mom Chao(m)/Mom Chao Ying(f) (หม่อมเจ้า/หม่อมเจ้าหญิง, abbreviated in Thai as ม.จ.) is the most junior class still considered a royalty.

This is normally when surnames first appear among royal lineages. They are either:

Children of a Chao Fa and a commoner.

Children of a Phra Ong Chao (of the first type).

Informally, they are styled as Than Chai(m).../Than Ying(f)... (ท่านชาย.../ท่านหญิง...).

The 'commoners'

The rest of royal progeny, starting from the children of Mom Chao, are considered commoners. They still retain their titles, indicating that their ancestry can be traced back to a king.

Mom Rajawongse

Mom Rajawongse (หม่อมราชวงศ์, abbreviated in Thai as ม.ร.ว. and sometimes in English as M.R.) are children of Mom Chao. Informally, they may be styled as Khun Chai(m).../Khunying(f)... (คุณชาย.../คุณหญิง...).

(Khunying is also a formal title given to married ladies who have been granted at least the Order of Chulachomklao, Fourth Class.) Holders of this title are occasionally called princes/princesses in English translation, especially in older documents; it is more common these days to use the word "Mom Rajawongse".

Mom Luang

Mom Luang (หม่อมหลวง, abbreviated in Thai as ม.ล. and sometimes in English as M.L.) are the last royal descendants still retaining a title. Colloquially, though incorrectly, they are sometimes addressed as "Mom"; the correct informal addressing is "Khun".

What happens after Mom Luang?

The children and subsequent descendants of Mom Luang do not hold any title. However, they would append the word "Na Ayutthaya" (ณ อยุธยา) to their surname, signifying a royal blood line.

Miscelleneous titles of the royal descendants

Mom (royalty)

Mom (หม่อม) has a rather ill-defined status among the hierachy of the royal titles. Holder of this title can be either:

a royalty of Mom Rajawongse class, who has been granted this particular title by the king in recognition to his merit. Technically, this is a feudal title, equivalent to the title Phraya granted to commoners; it is thus written without a space.

The title is granted together with a honorific name, and is used without a surname, for example: Mom Anuwatworapong (หม่อมอนุวัตรวรพงษ์), who was born as Mom Rajawongse Singhanad Pramoj (หม่อมราชวงศ์ สิงหนัด ปราโมช).

a former prince whose title has been stripped off as a punishment.

He would still be known as Mom... .

Khun (courtesy title)

Khun (คุณ) is a courtesy title for children born to a noble mother who gave up her title to marry a man of lesser title. This is pronounced in lower tone, and not to be confused with Khun (ขุน), pronounced in higher tone, which is a feudal title. In modern days, this word is used informally to courteously address virtually everybody, apart from those who actually hold a title of Mom Rajawongse or higher.

Title of a wife to a prince Wives of the princes also have titles. Again, this depends on the titles of both sides.

Phra Chaya

Phra Chaya (พระชายา) is a princess who married to either Chao Fa or Phra Ong Chao. She would retain her own title. When referring to her as a wife of the prince, she may be called "Phra Chaya Nai [Husband's name]".

Chaya

Chaya (ชายา) is a princess who married to a Mom Chao. Again, she would retain her own title. When referring to her as a wife of the prince, she may be called "Chaya Nai [Husband's name]".

Mom (wife)

Mom (หม่อม) in this context is a commoner who married to a prince. She will use this title to prefix her name and add the word Na Ayutthaya to her new surname, for example: Mom Sriras Mahidol Na Ayutthaya (a wife of Chao Fa Maha Vajiralongkorn, whose surname is Mahidol). When referring to her as a wife of the prince, she may be called "Mom Nai [Husband's name]".

Feudal titles The feudal titles had been granted until just after the 1932 Revolution brought an end to absolute monarchy Absolute monarchy is an idealized form of government, a monarchy where the ruler has the power to rule his or her country and citizens freely with no laws or legally-organized direct opposition telling him or her what to do, although some religious authority may be able to discourage the monarch from some acts and the sovereign is expected to act according to custom.

As a theory of civics, absolute monarchy puts total trust in well-bred and well-trained monarchs raised for the role from birth.

.

Also for that matter, feudalism feudalism is difficult because there is no generally accepted agreement on what it means. In order to begin to understand feudalism, a working definition is desirable. The definition described in this article is the most senior and classic definition and still subscribed to by many. It refers to a general set of reciprocal legal and military obligations among the warrior nobility of Europe during the Middle Ages, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals and fiefs.

In Thailand it is now largely obsolete, although on a rare occasion, the king may still grant an (honorary) feudal title to the royalties.

The latest title granted was "Kromma Luang Narathiwat Rajanakarin" (translated as "Princess of Narathiwat", literally "Viscountess of Narathiwat, Ruler of the Royal City") to Princess Galyani Vadhana, the King's sister.

The full title granted consists of a prefix, which signifies the rank (บรรดาศักดิ์ - Bandasak), and an honorific name (ราชทินนาม - Rachatinnanam), which can well be recycled. Taking the above example, the rank was "Luang" and the honorific name was "Narathiwat Rajanakarin". The appointee would use the full title in place of his names. However, as the honorific name can be repeated, when referring to a previous title holder, his former name may be written in a bracket to avoid confusion, for example: Phraya Kosathibodi (Lek) and Phraya Kosathibodi (Pan).

It is again a bit more complicated with the Chao Fa and Phra Ong Chao. If given a feudal title, the are said to "Song Krom" (ทรงกรม - lit.: "take department", but probably more semantically related to "take office"). The title would be prefixed with the word "Krom" (which will be pronounced "Kromma" when forming part of the name), and would be appended to (not replace) the former princely title. For example, the full title of the King's sister is "Somdej Phra Chao Pheenang Ther Chao Fa Galyani Vadhana Kromma Luang Narathivat Rajanakarin. Nevertheless, it is the princely title which will be more frequently omitted when contracting the title e.g. Somdej Phra Chao Boromawong Ther Kromma Phraya Damrong Rajanubhab Damrong Rajanubhab (Thai including his full title: สมเด็จพระเจ้าบรมวงศ์เธอ กรมพระยาดำรงราชานุภาพ) (June 21, 1862 - December 1, 1943) was the founder of the modern Thai education system as well as the modern provincial administration.

He was also a self-taught historian, and one of the most influential intellectuals of his time.(born Phra Ong Chao Disuankumaan).

Since the time of King Chulalongkorn, the honorific titles given to the royalties normally incorporate a city name or its modified form, and the holders are known in English as the Prince/Princess of that city.

Feudal titles are not inheritable.

Somdej Chao Phraya

Somdej Chao Phraya (สมเด็จเจ้าพระยา) is the most senior among the rank. Normally awarded only to those with great archivement.

Chao Phraya

Chao Phraya (เจ้าพระยา) is the most senior rank commonly granted. Holders of this title are informally addressed and referred to as "Chao Khun" (เจ้าคุณ) (2nd person: Chao Khun; 3rd person: Chao Khun + [honorific name]).

Phraya

Phraya (พระยา) is next in term of seniority. Similar to Chao Phraya, holders of this title are also informally addressed and referred to as "Chao Khun" (เจ้าคุณ).

Phra

Phra (พระ) is further down the line. Holders of this title are informally addressed and referred to as "Khun Phra" (คุณพระ) (2nd person: Khun Phra; 3rd person: Khun Phra + [honorific name]).

Luang

Luang (หลวง). Still further down the line, holders of this title are informally addressed and referred to as "Khun Luang" (คุณหลวง) (2nd person: Khun Luang; 3rd person: Khun Luang + [honorific name]).

Khun

Khun (ขุน). This is pronounced with higher tone (as oppose to Khun (คุณ) in lower tone). Informally, they are addressed as "Than Khun" (ท่านขุน).

Mhun

Mhun (หมื่น) or Jamhun (จมื่น) is one of the lower ranks, usually held by relatively junior officers.

Pan

Pan (พัน), a yet lower rank, and not considered much noble. This title is held by junior officers especially those in rural area.

Thanai

Thanai (ทนาย), one step up from being a Prai (ไพร่ -- plain commoner), this is the most junior among the ranks and not normally considered noble.