Three children, one man killed in fresh Israeli attack on Gaza

[Jingthing]

There he goes again. Hopeless case.

I think its pretty clear what his position is and where he stands.

The reason for not giving a straight answer is because he knows of the consequences with which he will not be able to scapegoat and dance around.

Yes he hinted something about one state but wouldn't go into details. If there is to be one state, there are various options such as a dual government (Palestinians and Jews) managing it, or the realization of the Hamas goal, getting rid of the Jews entirely. So hinting at one state doesn't actually tell explicitly what a person favors, and in his case, I did ask directly, and no answer. So yes I would also assume he is pro Hamas's position about one state. He has had EVERY opportunity to deny that. Perhaps that is the best way of dealing with him from now on, assume his positions are identical to Hamas. Of the vague one is free at any time to clearly write down his actual positions (no links please) to clarify them for us. Like that's going to happen!

BTW, a number of reasonable people are now arguing that a two state solution is now impossible (I hope they're wrong though) and favoring some kind of dual government scheme for one single state. It is definitely in the realm of possibilities that may happen someday.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jingthing

[bangkokeddy]

There he goes again. Hopeless case.

I think its pretty clear what his position is and where he stands.

The reason for not giving a straight answer is because he knows of the consequences with which he will not be able to scapegoat and dance around.

Yes he hinted something about one state but wouldn't go into details. If there is to be one state, there are various options such as a dual government (Palestinians and Jews) managing it, or the realization of the Hamas goal, getting rid of the Jews entirely. So hinting at one state doesn't actually tell explicitly what a person favors, and in his case, I did ask directly, and no answer. So yes I would also assume he is pro Hamas's position about one state. He has had EVERY opportunity to deny that. Perhaps that is the best way of dealing with him from now on, assume his positions are identical to Hamas.

Don't put words in my mouth. Stop with your lies.

I am for peace in Palestine without any segregation and discrimination by an ethnic/racial or religious group.

If you think your "Israel" can only exist with ethnic/racial or religious segregation and discrimination, than take it for given that i am against such a state.

Edited March 23, 2011 by bangkokeddy

[chachachacha]

Talks between the two sides have been stalled since late September following Israel's refusal to extend a 10-month freeze on settlement activity in the occupied Palestinian territory.

With Zionists will never be peace in Palestine.

Peace would be nice. What's Palestine? Define the borders, if you please. Terminology is important in a discussion, don't you think? Since Israel is packed to the brim with Zionists, what do you propose as a final solution to this problem of these pesky Zionists, as they aren't planning on leaving the area?

I would suggest that the usa seize all Israeli assets ,make a no fly zone & total blockade of Israel. All USA support grants to Israel stopped totally until such time as Israel stop doing state murder against the people. You claim there is no Palestine so it seem that Israel is murdering it's own people .

Next I would say that all these Israeli murderers should be tried for genocide ,

Can anybody tell me the difference in what Israel is doing & what is alleged that Gaddaffi has done ?

Israel keep it going because they want all them dollars from the clowns in the USA

Edited March 23, 2011 by chachachacha

[Jingthing]

Don't put words in my mouth. Stop with your lies.

That's the thing, buddy, we are waiting for YOUR words, and they never come. So we've given up. The truth is and EVERYONE sees this now, including your "anti-Zionist" allies that you are not debating here in good faith. You need to clarify your positions if you want to build any credibility here. Even if your views are offensive to many, at least if you own up to what they ACTUALLY are, that would show some integrity.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jingthing

[chuckd]

There he goes again. Hopeless case.

I think its pretty clear what his position is and where he stands.

The reason for not giving a straight answer is because he knows of the consequences with which he will not be able to scapegoat and dance around.

I think it is pretty obvious what this guy, Bangkokeddy, is doing. He fits the classic description of an internet troll and we keep falling for it.

I tried to get him to tell us if he had ever been in the Middle East and he never answered the question. One of a myriad of questions he has never answered.

If we can keep from rising to his baits, he will go away. All of us and the forum as a whole will be better off for the loss.

I'm certain this post will draw a response from him, but I will not be responding to his regurgitations any longer. I suggest all of you do the same.

Edited March 23, 2011 by chuckd

[Jingthing]

If we can keep from rising to his baits, he will go away. All of us and the forum as a whole will be better off for the loss.

Chuck, you are right. I think the time has come for me to stop wasting time on the debating equivalent of nude mayonnaise wrestling. Time to put Bangkokeddy on ignore. If by some miracle, he changes his stripes and owns up to his actual positions in his own words, someone let me know. Cheers, and thanks for the memories, Eddyboy.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jingthing

[kuffki]

Chacha, perhaps if Palestine was under Israeli govern then you could compare to libya,

Or perhaps if Muslims and Arabs of the middle east stopped calling USA a Satan,attack American embassy"s, ships, citizens and be democratic countries then US will not need to be friends with Israel

[Jingthing]

I would suggest that the usa seize all Israeli assets ,make a no fly zone & total blockade of Israel. All USA support grants to Israel stopped totally until such time as Israel stop doing state murder against the people. You claim there is no Palestine so it seem that Israel is murdering it's own people .

Next I would say that all these Israeli murderers should be tried for genocide ,

Can anybody tell me the difference in what Israel is doing & what is alleged that Gaddaffi has done ?

Israel keep it going because they want all them dollars from the clowns in the USA

There is no Palestine but there are two Palestinian governments, west bank vs. Gaza. I think the differences between Libya and Israel/Palestine are so massive it's more relevant to talk about what's the same. What's the same? Well in both places most of the Arabs hate Jews.

BTW, genocide is a big word. Where's the genocide? 20 percent of Israeli citizens are Arabs. What percentage of Gazans are Jews? Of course the Palestinians have legit beefs against both Israel and their own corrupt governments, but don't go overboard, there's no genocide.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

I answered that question more than often.

I even used your beloved Christopher Hitchens as a reference.

I would agree with Christopher Hitchens in so much as no religious justification should be the basis for a state and if the Jews are able to live in Israel then the Palestinians should equally have the right to live in Palestine. There is a huge difference between principle and practice though. Starting with the birth of Israel in 1948 it came out of a decision to partition the land between Jews and Palestinians so they could both have their own states. The Jews agreed and the Palestinians did not, which resulted in war. Since then there have been no fewer than four wars resulting in more Palestinians leaving and more Jews arriving, contributed to considerably by those evicted from Arab lands.

To further complicate matters secular but corrupt Fatah now vie for power with the Islamic extemists of Hamas who don't recognize Israel's right to exist. The Rabin's peace overtures and the following Intifada brought a rash of suicide bombings and the Israeli government built a security fence linking Jewish west bank settlements in order to reduce the suicide bombings, which was actually quite successful.

In summary we have a situation where the facts on the ground prevent a return to the pre 1967 borders, Fatah had it would appear recognised this if Al-Jazeera are accurate in their reporting, however Fatah do not represent the sole Palestinian view and absolutist Hamas by their very definition can't be negotiated with so any argument of principle no longer holds water and the Palestinian leadership are largely to blame due to the decisions they have made since 1948.

[bangkokeddy]

I would suggest that the usa seize all Israeli assets ,make a no fly zone & total blockade of Israel. All USA support grants to Israel stopped totally until such time as Israel stop doing state murder against the people. You claim there is no Palestine so it seem that Israel is murdering it's own people .

Next I would say that all these Israeli murderers should be tried for genocide ,

Can anybody tell me the difference in what Israel is doing & what is alleged that Gaddaffi has done ?

Israel keep it going because they want all them dollars from the clowns in the USA

Maybe we are coming closer to this, international pressure on Israel grows and grows and the USA cannot always use the UNSC Veto to protect Israel.

[bangkokeddy]

I answered that question more than often.

I even used your beloved Christopher Hitchens as a reference.

I would agree with Christopher Hitchens in so much as no religious justification should be the basis for a state and if the Jews are able to live in Israel then the Palestinians should equally have the right to live in Palestine. There is a huge difference between principle and practice though. Starting with the birth of Israel in 1948 it came out of a decision to partition the land between Jews and Palestinians so they could both have their own states. The Jews agreed and the Palestinians did not, which resulted in war. Since then there have been no fewer than four wars resulting in more Palestinians leaving and more Jews arriving, contributed to considerably by those evicted from Arab lands.

Not Jews, it were Zionists. Zionists agreed in colonialist map making of 1948.

People and states in the region were against it.

Edited March 23, 2011 by bangkokeddy

[midas]

Here is more evidence that defining Zionism, especially in these days when much of the world is like Bangkokeddy and succeeding in DEMONIZING it and making it into an antisemitic slur word, is more important than ever.

http://www.takebackzionism.org/node/add/contribute-view

You are making something up here what i never said and you lie, again.

Talking about anti zionist T shirts i wonder if he has got one of these as well ?

So what do we have here? Ben Bernanke is Jewish and he is head of the Fed - Implication Jews run the banking system.

And you link him directly to Zionism. So for you there is no doubt whatsoever where you stand Jews are Zionists - you are outed racist, thought that is common knowledge due to the persistent use of antisemitic hoax material in your links.

Shulamit Aloni warned me about people like you

There is no implication " Jews run the banking system ' - it is the worst kept secret

" persistent use of antisemitic hoax material " - you mean like this..........

" The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war."

Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

Edited March 23, 2011 by midas

[Jingthing]

I would agree with Christopher Hitchens in so much as no religious justification should be the basis for a state and if the Jews are able to live in Israel then the Palestinians should equally have the right to live in Palestine.

Sounds good, but keep in mind that Zionism is VERY diverse. It is not required to practice the Jewish religion or even believe in God to be a good Zionist.

[bangkokeddy]

Or perhaps if Muslims and Arabs of the middle east stopped calling USA a Satan,attack American embassy"s, ships, citizens and be democratic countries then US will not need to be friends with Israel

Here we go,.... again.

[bangkokeddy]

I would agree with Christopher Hitchens in so much as no religious justification should be the basis for a state and if the Jews are able to live in Israel then the Palestinians should equally have the right to live in Palestine.

Sounds good, but keep in mind that Zionism is VERY diverse. It is not required to practice the Jewish religion or even believe in God to be a good Zionist.

If you are a Jew and wanna make peace with Palestinians or Arabs, respect them and treat them as equal human beings, the good Zionists will probably call you a traitor if not even an anti-semite.

[Steely Dan]

I answered that question more than often.

I even used your beloved Christopher Hitchens as a reference.

I would agree with Christopher Hitchens in so much as no religious justification should be the basis for a state and if the Jews are able to live in Israel then the Palestinians should equally have the right to live in Palestine. There is a huge difference between principle and practice though. Starting with the birth of Israel in 1948 it came out of a decision to partition the land between Jews and Palestinians so they could both have their own states. The Jews agreed and the Palestinians did not, which resulted in war. Since then there have been no fewer than four wars resulting in more Palestinians leaving and more Jews arriving, contributed to considerably by those evicted from Arab lands.

Not Jews, it were Zionists. Zionists agreed in colonialist map making of 1948.

People and states in the region were against it.

In effect the only Jews who were not Zionists by your criteria were the ultra-orthodox Jews who had been living there for centuries and who disagree with the state of Israel being formed before the coming of the Messiah. It is very clear where this is leading though, you do not believe Israel has the right to exist which aligns you with Hamas and ironically ultra-orthodox Jews.

By the way your beloved UN voted Israel into existence, which proves even they get things right now and then.

[Jingthing]

To be clear, even the vast majority of ultra orthodox Jews ARE also Zionists, in the broad sense of supporting the existence of the Jewish state of Israel. It's easy to say Jews don't equal Zionists because it is true that not all Jews are Zionists, but over 90 percent of global Jews do support the existence of Jewish Israel, so overall the close connection between Jews and Zionism is undeniable.

[kuffki]

Yes Jing how dare you question or disrespect an Arab? It's perfectly acceptable for Arabs to kill Jews ,to call Jews pigs and everything else, no problem with not even accepting Jewish right to anything. But do not you dare criticizing Arabs . More and more eddy is starting to sound like jihadist.

[Steely Dan]

To be clear, even the vast majority of ultra orthodox Jews ARE also Zionists, in the broad sense of supporting the existence of the Jewish state of Israel. It's easy to say Jews don't equal Zionists because it is true that not all Jews are Zionists, but over 90 percent of global Jews do support the existence of Jewish Israel, so overall the close connection between Jews and Zionism is undeniable.

Thankyou for the clarification. Yes agreed. A minority of ultra orthodox Jews and a few extreme left wing mavericks would not be classified as Zionists, these are acceptable to BKKEddie as they agree with his own prejudiced agenda.

[Jingthing]

Well, I want to be more careful about this. The exact definition of Zionist is touchy. Certainly not everyone including Jews would agree that simply intellectually supporting the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish state automatically means they should be labeled a Zionist. Many left wing Jews who are justifiably opposed to many of the things done in the name of Zionism refuse to identify as Zionist, but I think most of them STILL support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. On the other hand, by DEFINITION really, anyone who states they are an anti-Zionist is by definition against the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jingthing

[bangkokeddy]

In effect the only Jews who were not Zionists by your criteria were the ultra-orthodox Jews who had been living there for centuries and who disagree with the state of Israel being formed before the coming of the Messiah. It is very clear where this is leading though, you do not believe Israel has the right to exist which aligns you with Hamas and ironically ultra-orthodox Jews.

By the way your beloved UN voted Israel into existence, which proves even they get things right now and then.

Please stop to equal Jews with Zionist.

Most Zionists back these days were were colonialist settler form Europe or America.

Not only the orthodox Jew are not Zionists, there are many more Jews who wants to have nothing to do with Zionism.

Christopher Hitchens is for sure not a Zionist, is he an ultra-orthodox Jew?

Jews Against Racist Zionism

Peace for Palestine without any segregation and discrimination by an ethnic or religious group.

[Ulysses G.]

" The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war."

Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

Here are some more realistic quotes:

March 8th 1965

"We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood" - President of Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser

May 17th 1967

“All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel” - Cairo Radio

May 22nd 1967

"We want a full scale, popular war of liberation… to destroy the Zionist enemy" - Syrian president Dr. Nureddin al-Attasi speech to troops

May 26th 1967

"Taking over Sharm el Sheikh meant confrontation with Israel (and) also meant that we were ready to enter a general war with Israel. The battle will be a general one and our basic objective will be to destroy Israel” - Gamal Abdel Nasser speech to the General Council of the International Confederation of Arab Trade Union

May 28th 1967

“We will not accept any…coexistence with Israel.…Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel….The war with Israel is in effect since 1948”. - Gamel Abdel Nasser press conference

May 31st 1967

“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map” - President Aref of Iraq

May 31st 1967.

"Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map"

President Aref of Iraq,

June 1st 1967

“Brethren and sons, this is the day of the battle to avenge our martyred brethren who fell in 1948. It is the day to wash away the stigma. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa” - Radio broadcast by Iraqi President Abdel Rahman Aref

- 11.00 GMT June 1st 1967, Baghdad Domestic Service in Arabic , Foreign Broadcast Information Service

June 1st 1967

“Those who survive will remain in Palestine. I estimate that none of them will survive.” - Ahmed Shukairy, chairman of PLO in Jordanian Jerusalem, asked in news interview what will happen to the Israelis if there is a war

[Steely Dan]

Christopher Hitchens is for sure not a Zionist, is he an ultra-orthodox Jew?

Well I bet he would classify as Islamophobic by your criteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens

I hold him in very high regard as he started out left wing and instinctively saw there that something stank with liberal political correctness and appeasement of Islamofascists.

[bangkokeddy]

To be clear, even the vast majority of ultra orthodox Jews ARE also Zionists, in the broad sense of supporting the existence of the Jewish state of Israel. It's easy to say Jews don't equal Zionists because it is true that not all Jews are Zionists, but over 90 percent of global Jews do support the existence of Jewish Israel, so overall the close connection between Jews and Zionism is undeniable.

Thankyou for the clarification. Yes agreed. A minority of ultra orthodox Jews and a few extreme left wing mavericks would not be classified as Zionists, these are acceptable to BKKEddie as they agree with his own prejudiced agenda.

Its wrong, the classic anti-semites and Jew hater equal Jews with Zionism or Judaism with Zionism and see in Israel another example how evil the 'Jews' are.

You have to differentiate, strictly.

[Jingthing]

I also like Hitchens. He clearly supports the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. He questions why Jewish Israel came to be in the first place. That's reasonable to do from an academic point of view, but doesn't mean there is any justification to destroy it now. Both Palestinians AND Jews have historical claims on those lands and contrary to Arab propaganda, not all of the Jewish claims are ancient. How to settle this now? I think two sovereign states.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jingthing

[soundman]

Everybody setttle down and debate in a civilised manner or posting HOLIDAYS will be issued, that includes frivolous use of the REPORT button.

[bangkokeddy]

Christopher Hitchens is for sure not a Zionist, is he an ultra-orthodox Jew?

Well I bet he would classify as Islamophobic by your criteria.

http://en.wikipedia....topher_Hitchens

I hold him in very high regard as he started out left wing and instinctively saw there that something stank with liberal political correctness and appeasement of Islamofascists.

You are using him in your Islamphobic crusade and hate speech propaganda. Picking up only a few soundbites.

Hitchens is able to differentiate.

I am not a 'left wing', <snip>

Edited March 23, 2011 by soundman
Removed un-neccesary comment after my public warning above.

[bangkokeddy]

I also like Hitchens. He clearly supports the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. He questions why Jewish Israel came to be in the first place. That's reasonable to do from an academic point of view, but doesn't mean there is any justification to destroy it now. Both Palestinians AND Jews have historical claims on those lands and contrary to Arab propaganda, not all of the Jewish claims are ancient. How to settle this now? I think two sovereign states.

See finally we got something were we can agree

Christopher Hitchens on Israel and Zionism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQxhyy9Wpb4

^^

That is what i am talking about the whole time.

[Steely Dan]

I also like Hitchens. He clearly supports the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. He questions why Jewish Israel came to be in the first place. That's reasonable to do from an academic point of view, but doesn't mean there is any justification to destroy it now. Both Palestinians AND Jews have historical claims on those lands and contrary to Arab propaganda, not all of the Jewish claims are ancient. How to settle this now? I think two sovereign states.

Jingthing,

That has been tried and their borders would have been defined in 1948, however as an earlier post I made explained the facts on the ground have moved on considerably since then due mainly to Arab/Palestinian refusal to recognise Israel, but also in part due to intransigence on both sides. I agree the Palestinians should have a state but in my oppinion their collective recognition of Israel is a pre-requisite and then the horse trading over details could begin.

The bottom line is that a de-radicalisation of the Arab world needs to happen before any of this is possible and religious extremism of all flavours is on the rise so the time in my view is just not right.

[bangkokeddy]

Jingthing,

That has been tried and their borders would have been defined in 1948, however as an earlier post I made explained the facts on the ground have moved on considerably since then due mainly to Arab/Palestinian refusal to recognise Israel, but also in part due to intransigence on both sides. I agree the Palestinians should have a state but in my oppinion their collective recognition of Israel is a pre-requisite and then the horse trading over details could begin.

The bottom line is that a de-radicalisation of the Arab world needs to happen before any of this is possible and religious extremism of all flavours is on the rise so the time in my view is just not right.

If peace is the goal than a pre-requisite is that the Zionists come to their senses, see reason and understand what Zionism actually is and put it in the trash bin of history.

Just like everybodies darling Hitchens said it.