Express Trains To Suvarnabhumi Airport Suspended

[jfchandler]

As is often the case with news media reports here, they're pretty superficial and often lacking in key details.... Hence all the speculation going on.... We simply don't know some of the essentials...

But... a couple things: GK, I didn't see any indication it was the brushes themselves that were flawed... Rather, the suggestion was it was something about the trains going in and out of the airport station that was wacking out the brushes....

But more broadly, something just doesn't add up:

They test ran the trains for some months, as I recall, prior to ever beginning commercial service, using the full route, airport to Phyathai... And then they had the promotional period of public service last fall...with discounted fares... And all that time, we never heard any public issue about a parts/design problem...

Now, 6 months or so into the ARL running, suddenly they're saying brush parts that are supposed to last six months are only lasting a week???

Well what happened? If there was a design or construction problem with the airport station, that would have been causing the same problem from the outset. Why wouldn't it have been noticed and/or corrected in the beginning? And if it was noticed early on, that meant SRT had months to deal with it...and obviously, didn't do so successfully.

And if it wasn't noticed during the operational trials and promotional period, why not? The construction of the line and the airport station were done and presumably unchanged after the opening of the line. If the problem is as has been explained, it would have been an issue from day one... And they've had a lot of "one weeks" pass by before getting to this point.

With all the different companies and players involved in the design and construction of the stations, rail line and rail cars, I can imagine there's been a lot of behind the scenes finger pointing going on....as to what or who is responsible for the problem. And I'm just guessing, but I could easily imagine that may have something to do with suddenly there being no available replacement brushes on hand.

[Bagwan]

We have been having a problem with a German company that supplied a major piece of equipment (USD20+ mil). The "O" rings on the cylinders are wearing out much faster then anticipated and the company is stonewalling on supplying replacements (as required under warranty) and refuses to say why they wear out so fast. The after sales/installation support by German companies is well known. Seems to be a cultural thing that they refuse to acknowledge the design may not be perfect.

TH

All my power tools are made by Bosch. At regular intervals based on the amount of usage I take them along to the centre in Klong Toey where they strip them down, check everything, replace the lubricant - and all, so far, free of charge. One happy customer thank you very much. Another country in whose products I have faith in is Sweden. I hope that SAAB recover from the period of horror resulting from working under the GM banner.

[toybits]

It is face-saving to say that they lack spare parts to run th express train to Suwannabhumi Airport rather than admit that they were loosing massive amounts of money running virtually empty Express trains. Most people are taking the City line. So it probably is better just to expand the City line service and move more people around.

[gennisis]

I hate to say this, but how typically Thailand...

How long's the service been running since the start now, six months or so???

And they already have train parts wearing out, supposedly because of some faulty design on the rail line itself at the airport...

Strange though...because they test ran the trains for quite some time at the beginning... and after that they've been running a full regular schedule for several months now...

So why is this maintenance problem just surfacing now... Or it took them some months to work their way thru their entire supply of replacement parts without doing anything proactive to resolve the problemms???

Of course, you gotta wonder why the Thai folks running the line let it deteriorate to the point where they had to pull the trains out of service and cancel operations...

You mean to tell me.... they didn't know this problem was coming far enough ahead of time to sort out the spare parts problem before it got critical??? Hard to imagine...

But then again, TIT.

(PS - Just wait till the same thing happens with spare parts for Thailand's (possible) future nuclear power plants... OOOPS..... Call Germany QUICK!!!!)

They probably ran the trains around a loop or back and forth but did not cycle them through the tunnel enough. Seems odd that the tunnel design messes up the brushes so much. Must be some weird crossover area or something. Sloppy engineering.

Yes...I cant understand how the design of the tunnel would effect the rate of wear on the carbon brushes.Is the power pickup at the base or the roof? if there were areas where the contacts were reduced I suppose this would mean greater friction and therefore a lower working life....and if so ,surely his would have been apparent during trials.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, the train is moving and occasionally it has to get its power from lines overhead, I think... though most of the time it would be through the rails- and the carbon brushes are there to allow the power transfer while the train is in motion. I'm guessing the tunnel they built is too low and is probably scraping the carbon brushes against the roof. Unfortunately, I would really doubt that the responsibility for this is Siemens' alone.

[Jdietz]

So if this problem has been going on for months now, why not enter the tunnel slower and on idle (not drawing power)? Seems like an easy directive until the design gets a makeover.

[hoaker]

I hate to say this, but how typically Thailand...

How long's the service been running since the start now, six months or so???

And they already have train parts wearing out, supposedly because of some faulty design on the rail line itself at the airport...

Strange though...because they test ran the trains for quite some time at the beginning... and after that they've been running a full regular schedule for several months now...

So why is this maintenance problem just surfacing now... Or it took them some months to work their way thru their entire supply of replacement parts without doing anything proactive to resolve the problemms???

Of course, you gotta wonder why the Thai folks running the line let it deteriorate to the point where they had to pull the trains out of service and cancel operations...

You mean to tell me.... they didn't know this problem was coming far enough ahead of time to sort out the spare parts problem before it got critical??? Hard to imagine...

But then again, TIT.

(PS - Just wait till the same thing happens with spare parts for Thailand's (possible) future nuclear power plants... OOOPS..... Call Germany QUICK!!!!)

This is probably a short of funding from corruption, so it has to surface as a BS excuse why the train is not in service.

[whybother]

Well, the train is moving and occasionally it has to get its power from lines overhead, I think... though most of the time it would be through the rails- and the carbon brushes are there to allow the power transfer while the train is in motion. I'm guessing the tunnel they built is too low and is probably scraping the carbon brushes against the roof. Unfortunately, I would really doubt that the responsibility for this is Siemens' alone.

I think all its power comes from overhead. There is no power in the rails (or any side rails).

[SAffer]

Well, the train is moving and occasionally it has to get its power from lines overhead, I think... though most of the time it would be through the rails- and the carbon brushes are there to allow the power transfer while the train is in motion. I'm guessing the tunnel they built is too low and is probably scraping the carbon brushes against the roof. Unfortunately, I would really doubt that the responsibility for this is Siemens' alone.

I think all its power comes from overhead. There is no power in the rails (or any side rails).

I think so too, though I've not used this train myself.

Where is this tunnel that I keep reading about?

[whybother]

I think so too, though I've not used this train myself.

Where is this tunnel that I keep reading about?

I think it's the tunnels it goes into at Makkasan station. (not underground)

[andrew55]

We have been having a problem with a German company that supplied a major piece of equipment (USD20+ mil). The "O" rings on the cylinders are wearing out much faster then anticipated and the company is stonewalling on supplying replacements (as required under warranty) and refuses to say why they wear out so fast. The after sales/installation support by German companies is well known. Seems to be a cultural thing that they refuse to acknowledge the design may not be perfect.

TH

All my power tools are made by Bosch. At regular intervals based on the amount of usage I take them along to the centre in Klong Toey where they strip them down, check everything, replace the lubricant - and all, so far, free of charge. One happy customer thank you very much. Another country in whose products I have faith in is Sweden. I hope that SAAB recover from the period of horror resulting from working under the GM banner.

I believe your Bosch power tools are made in China. Could be wrong. Again.

Look for 'duty cycle'. The Airport Link guys didn't...

Edited March 31, 2011 by andrew55

[johnch12111]

Classic.

Almost as good at the battery running out on the Tsumani detector...

I argue with anyone that says Thailand is not a 3^rdworld country. At least they run this country like one

givenall, do you dare open you mouth and prove to the world that you are a fool? If so, then please explain in what way exactly does Thailand classify as a 3rd world country (didn't people stop using that term 20 yrs ago?).

Thailand has for the most part excellent infrastructure, universal schooling and healthcare, extremely reliable electricity, water and other utilities for almost all of the country. It's people have a very high literacy rate 94%. It also has a reasonably high life expectancy - over 70 years, high scores on international indexes for female education and career opportunities

The economy has significant diversified industries with very low unemployment of less than 1%, it's inflation is quite low around 3%, the country has significantly large foreign exchange reserves and consistently exports more than it imports.

If you seriously think that this country is comparable with places like Afghanistan, India (I had to wait more than one year to have my home connected to a telephone land line!), Myanmar (even in Yangoon you are lucky if you have electricity for more than 12 hours a day), Bangladesh (half the people can't read or write), not to mention almost every country in Africa or even Cambodia and Laos.....and it you still believe Thailand is a 3rd world country, then get off this forum pack you bags and go back to your little safe haven whereever that is in the world. People read this forum for sensible discussion and your comments are just plain boring. But perhaps disparaging comments make you feel good by reassuring yourself how much better you are than anyone else?

on one point about schooling how can you say that when most people will never fail anything,,,umm i think you need to get into the real world

[Netfan]

I think so too, though I've not used this train myself.

Where is this tunnel that I keep reading about?

I think it's the tunnels it goes into at Makkasan station. (not underground)

There is a proper tunnel just as you enter / exit the airport - the airport station is underground.

Why is this only affecting the express trains?

I take the city line pretty regularly and that express train usually has one to two people per car when it goes by. It has to have been a disaster financially. The city line, on the other hand, is crowded and the trains should be run at 10 or 15 minute intervals.

[NALAK]

i went on the city line to makkasan last saturday, the express pulled in and not one person got off, we got off at makkasan on the city link went outside not 1 single taxi, had to wait whilst one was radioed and this is supposed to be the main link from the airport. the train was full though, but not to many airport passengers on it. guess taxi is way easier with luggage.

[TobiasMattsson]

<br>Another country in whose products I have faith in is Sweden. I hope that SAAB recover from the period of horror resulting from working under the GM banner.<br>

<br><br>We are a small country but we produce top notch products... I figure it´s our drinking habits that makes us so great... <img class="bbc_emoticon" alt="" src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif"><br>Although it´s sad that SAAB can´t pay their bills on time so that the parts from contractors can be delivered on time. For at least 2-3 days the SAAB factory in Trollhättan has been shut due to parts not being delivered... <img class="bbc_emoticon" alt="" src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/crying.gif"> But it´s a great car!<br>

[whybother]

I think so too, though I've not used this train myself.

Where is this tunnel that I keep reading about?

I think it's the tunnels it goes into at Makkasan station. (not underground)

There is a proper tunnel just as you enter / exit the airport - the airport station is underground.

Why is this only affecting the express trains?

I take the city line pretty regularly and that express train usually has one to two people per car when it goes by. It has to have been a disaster financially. The city line, on the other hand, is crowded and the trains should be run at 10 or 15 minute intervals.

True ... forgot about that. I was thinking it had something to do with getting into Makkasan. It changes off the 'through' tracks going into Makkasan, where the City line trains go straight through.

Are the actual express and city line trains different (besides the paint job and decor)? The express train goes at higher speeds, but that doesn't explain why the problem would be with the tunnel.

[jfchandler]

This begins to remind me of the original discussion we had in the ARL thread shortly after the line opened...

Right now, given what's around the Makkasan station, its lack of convenient access to the Petchburi MRT station and the apparent lack of even taxis there based on one member's account above, taking the Express Line to Makkasan for most people is an expensive non-starter, especially if they've got any volume of luggage...

I live not far from the Makkasan station. But every time we travel and use the ARL line, we also live near the Sukhumvit BTS line so we take it straight to Phyathai, and then City Line ARL from Phyathai to the Airport... save fare money in the process, and avoid lugging our luggage from Makkasan to the MRT, or having to still take a taxi from Makkasan to our home. No wonder the Express Line trains are empty... It's a speedy trip from the airport to NOWHERE.

Now, to be fair, one of the other knowledgeable members here weighed in that there are plans to build some kind of pedestrian walkway from Makkasan to Petchburi MRT... And all kinds of future development plans for stuff in that area... But right now, every time I drive thru that area, the whole neighborhood looks like a construction zone dump and the last place I'd want to be walking around or slinging luggage.

I've taken the City Line probably a half dozen times to and from the airport. But I've yet to take the Express Line once. Should I add that I'm also a cheap SOB??? As my wife often reminds me, "You're spending MY money..."

[balo]

I only take the City Line myself , its the only train that will take you to a BTS so I think 90% of the passengers are on this train.

Never tried the Express train and never will.

[d44]

unless we are lucky, there isn't an expert to tell us in one sentence who takes the blame.

Not in one sentence, no.

My knowledge dates from quite a few years back but I doubt much has changed, so here goes...

To complete the electric circuit there are two kinds of brushes:

The first one is on (some of) the axles. I very much doubt those are the problematic ones as there's not a lot of force on them, speeds are low, and they're kinda self aligning. However, if it *is* actually the problem then it is obviously Siemens who are to blame.

The second one is mounted on the pantograph (the arm thingy on the roof) that connects to the catenary. That one is much more vulnerable and tolerances to make it all work are surprisingly tight. Failure modes are legion. for ex.:

- catenary too high and your graphite arcs to vapor

- catenary too low and it wears out rapidly

- catenary too straight and it wears away in one spot

- out of spec catenary alloy could be wearing out the shoe

- bumpy line section crossovers will chip away the graphite

I understand that the airport link's wear problem has been known for quite a while and the root cause should have been addressed instead of just keep replacing parts. But then, that root cause may very well be 30 km not-so-easy-to-fix overhead wiring. Still, I don't see why as some have suggested it should be on Siemens to alter their production and/or stocking policies simply because some other contractor failed to deliver.

I remember reading somewhere that the tracks and catenary were contracted out to some Chinese outfit whose name escapes me, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, my bet is on whoever built the catenary.

(back to lurking)

[glassdude007]

hope they get the train sorted out...

i used it (city line)from Nana station last month 1st time during rush hour...

was at the airport in a flash no Sukumvit gridlock or highway tolls to slow you down..

yes it was crowded but mostly with pretty girls in short skirts...

great service straight to departure..

hope it returns

Edited April 2, 2011 by glassdude007

[Macmundi]

Why not blame Siemens, their the experts.

I remember the trouble in Melbourne when they took over the water board, would not buy spares !!!

oops... you mean they have a prior history of messing up in other countries?

Hmmmm...

YES. everywhere else.

[Nisa]

unless we are lucky, there isn't an expert to tell us in one sentence who takes the blame.

Not in one sentence, no.

My knowledge dates from quite a few years back but I doubt much has changed, so here goes...

To complete the electric circuit there are two kinds of brushes:

The first one is on (some of) the axles. I very much doubt those are the problematic ones as there's not a lot of force on them, speeds are low, and they're kinda self aligning. However, if it *is* actually the problem then it is obviously Siemens who are to blame.

The second one is mounted on the pantograph (the arm thingy on the roof) that connects to the catenary. That one is much more vulnerable and tolerances to make it all work are surprisingly tight. Failure modes are legion. for ex.:

- catenary too high and your graphite arcs to vapor

- catenary too low and it wears out rapidly

- catenary too straight and it wears away in one spot

- out of spec catenary alloy could be wearing out the shoe

- bumpy line section crossovers will chip away the graphite

I understand that the airport link's wear problem has been known for quite a while and the root cause should have been addressed instead of just keep replacing parts. But then, that root cause may very well be 30 km not-so-easy-to-fix overhead wiring. Still, I don't see why as some have suggested it should be on Siemens to alter their production and/or stocking policies simply because some other contractor failed to deliver.

I remember reading somewhere that the tracks and catenary were contracted out to some Chinese outfit whose name escapes me, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, my bet is on whoever built the catenary.

(back to lurking)

Shouldn't there be one contractor in charge of all the vendors in terms of seeing the everything fit together properly and were to specs as well as seeing the over all project is done properly? Or is this an issue that would only likely be discovered after the trains were deployed? I'm assuming that Siemens only provided products that were ordered to a certain specification but that they should be able to keep in stock needed parts now. Not sure if the Chinese did this one but I have seen plaque(s) in the subway giving them credit for at least part of the subway system.

[Rinrada]

:jap: Got the express train early this morning from Macs to Suwanna...luvly.

Station was spotless and seemed that I was almost the only passenger but the guards were all very polite and helpfull...but why do they keep saluting you..??..

Great train and real smooth ride and for loy-ha-sip Bt....No complaints.

Came in last week on the "stopper"which again was great and tic price from Suwanna -Macs was Bt32.. figure? ..

Back in grimy land again but must have a least last pint to round off a long day.....

[bifftastic]

Everyone saying how 'typically Thai' this kind of thing is should,perhaps, think about similar things that happen all over the world. For instance, in London, part of the preparation for the Olympic games is the extension of a railway line (quite similar to the BTS btw). It is now over 6 months overdue, it's been built but the engineering staff who worked for the contractor given the franchise to run it, now work for the one who wasn't, and those that remain, can't seem to get it to work, so, staff have been hired to run the trains, contracts have been signed, hundreds of millions of pounds have been sunk into this project, which should just be an extension of an already existing and working railway, but it just won't work. because of the way the whole railway industry is structured in the UK.

So does that make the UK a third world country?

No, it just means that that particular railway hasn't been brought in on time or budget.

Does it lead to people making irrational comments about the state of the country/government/banks/corruption endemic in the rail franchising system/the recession/immigration/the price of fish/crime(some of the very expensive power cables were stolen, twice!)

Yes, because people seem to have opinions and stereotypical generalisations which they will trot out at the drop of a hat.

I find the whole Siemens thing quite interesting as the Alcatel option, which, by the way, is the one they can't seem to get to work in London, was, I believe, rejected for the BTS because it was deemed unreliable.

Railways are difficult things to operate, things go wrong sometimes.

[softgeorge]

Thai ingenuity and the ability to adapt and overcome will rise. Just because we don't have parts that should not stop the service from running. There is money being lost if this project is sitting idol. It's Sunday morning people smile you did after all wake up.

[Macmundi]

We have been having a problem with a German company that supplied a major piece of equipment (USD20+ mil). The "O" rings on the cylinders are wearing out much faster then anticipated and the company is stonewalling on supplying replacements (as required under warranty) and refuses to say why they wear out so fast. The after sales/installation support by German companies is well known. Seems to be a cultural thing that they refuse to acknowledge the design may not be perfect.

TH

All my power tools are made by Bosch. At regular intervals based on the amount of usage I take them along to the centre in Klong Toey where they strip them down, check everything, replace the lubricant - and all, so far, free of charge. One happy customer thank you very much. Another country in whose products I have faith in is Sweden. I hope that SAAB recover from the period of horror resulting from working under the GM banner.

I wouldn't use a Bosch if you gave it to me for free. It's not expensive, but the quality is not too good either, fair enough. Unlike the other German brands, expensive AND STILL lousy.

[andrew55]

We have been having a problem with a German company that supplied a major piece of equipment (USD20+ mil). The "O" rings on the cylinders are wearing out much faster then anticipated and the company is stonewalling on supplying replacements (as required under warranty) and refuses to say why they wear out so fast. The after sales/installation support by German companies is well known. Seems to be a cultural thing that they refuse to acknowledge the design may not be perfect.

TH

All my power tools are made by Bosch. At regular intervals based on the amount of usage I take them along to the centre in Klong Toey where they strip them down, check everything, replace the lubricant - and all, so far, free of charge. One happy customer thank you very much. Another country in whose products I have faith in is Sweden. I hope that SAAB recover from the period of horror resulting from working under the GM banner.

I wouldn't use a Bosch if you gave it to me for free. It's not expensive, but the quality is not too good either, fair enough. Unlike the other German brands, expensive AND STILL lousy.

Think you'll find Bosch are Chinese.

[josephbloggs]

blah blah blah , I think... blah blah blah......I'm guessing the tunnel they built is too low....

This sums up TV for me. Blame the Thais, make yourselves feel better.

Out of all the people pontificating and passing judgement on this problem - please tell me how many of you work in the rail industry or even know what the problem is with these carbon brushes. How many of you had even heard of carbon brushes before? I'm guessing not many.

Please tell me what caused this problem, what your position is in the industry, why it happened.....and then I'm all ears. For all the rest of TV know-it-alls/know-nothings please stop wasting bandwidth. Seriously, do you not realise how sily you look? How smug?

You really do annoy me....

I've just searched back 2 pages to see what comments or thoughts YOU have on the matter..Nil

All these idiotic comments are what people feel is wrong with Seimans-or Express trains, naturally ,unless we are lucky, there isn't an expert to tell us in one sentence who takes the blame. forum is about one's feelings on the matter and to express what they think and to discuss. You said you are all ears, why not tell us what your thoughts are on the said subject ???

Your not trying to get brownie points, and trying yourself to look good are you ??? if you so want look up facts on the internet if posters BOTHER YOU. (but I do agree there are some that annoy)

You won't find any thoughts or comments on the matter from me because I'm not into pontificating and speculating on things that I know nothing about. I like trains but I know nothing about carbon brushes or why they've worn out or why there's a lack of spare parts to hand. However, what annoyed (still annoys) me is the fact that at least 95% of people posting here and blaming the "incompetent Thais" ALSO know nothing about carbon brushes, what they do, why they've worn out or why there were no spares to hand, but they simply say things like, "this is Thailand, what do you expect", or blame corruption or - quite ridiculously - the taxi mafia.

I've lived here for nearly 16 years and have a business employing more than 30 Thais so I am more than familiar with how things work here and I am not some wide-eyed newcomer. Yes, some things get cocked up in Thailand, but they also get cocked up where I come from. I just get annoyed when people who know NOTHING about the issue in question automatically sneer at the Thais and assume it is a result of their incompetence. It is not fair and reflects badly on the people passing judgement.

[thaihome]

...

I remember reading somewhere that the tracks and catenary were contracted out to some Chinese outfit whose name escapes me, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, my bet is on whoever built the catenary.

(back to lurking)

Siemens was part of the consortium that built the Airport Link. The were

responsible for design and installation that included the catenary. If they subcontracted that to a chinese company, it does not relieve them of the responsibility for it to be installed correctly.

TH

Consortium of B. Grimm / Siemens / Sino Thai wins orders for airport link in Bangkok – Project worth about 518 million euro

Erlangen, Jan 20, 2005

Siemens’ Transportation Systems division together with consortium partners B. Grimm and Sino Thai Engineering and Construction Plc. (STECON) today signed a 518 million euro contract with State Railway of Thailand for the construction of the 28 km Suvarnabhumi Airport Rail Link and the City Air Terminal.

Under the terms of the contract, the consortium leader B. Grimm International Ltd. and B. Grimm MBM Hong Kong Ltd. will be responsible for the entire project management while STECON will be responsible for the civil infrastructure. Siemens and B. Grimm take responsibility for the design, supply, installation and project management of the whole electrical and mechanical system including trackwork, rolling stock, signaling system, power supply, communication systems, automatic fare collection, tunnel equipment, depot and workshop equipment, check-in facilities as well as baggage handling system. The contract value for Siemens part is approx. 11.1 billion Baht.

[Jawnie]

The City Line Airport Link has been running since Friday. So much for the incompetent Thais.

Some things that seems to operate better in Thailand than anywhere else are all the jerking knees.