The Monks And I: Teaching And Learning In Thailand

[camerata]

The monks and I: Teaching and learning in Thailand

International volunteers pay to teach Buddhist monks in Chiang Mai and Ratchaburi. Journey to nirvana not guaranteed

Foreigners are being invited to teach English to Buddhist monks at two temples in Thailand -- at a cost of hundreds of dollars.

And staff at one temple claim that many visiting instructors "experienced nirvana temporarily" during meditation sessions.

The temples, Wat Luang Phor Sodh in Ratchaburi and Wat Doi Saket in Chiang Mai, run slightly different programs, but essentially offer the chance to learn about Thai culture while teaching English.

Foreign teachers have to pay for their own lodging, food and other expenses, as well as their airfare to and from Thailand. And though all of the saffron-robed monk students are male, the temples welcome both men and women teachers.

"All English speakers are welcomed," said Dr. Barton "Bart" Yanathiro, a 75-year-old American Buddhist who helps run the classes in Ratchaburi, about two hours southwest from Bangkok by bus.

[...]

"Numerous teacher volunteers have been able to meditate to experience nirvana, and get advice from Buddha or the Noble Disciples," he said. "This is an undreamed of, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

"Of 16 teachers since the very beginning, six experienced nirvana temporarily. An additional three transcended beyond this world to Dhammakaya, and another three more achieved trance states like heavenly bliss. The remaining four only attained inner peace."

Asked about their purported temporary experience of nirvana, Dr. Yanathiro replied: "I am using the official definition, where one actually sees and communicates with Lord Buddha and his disciples.

"Most amazing is the personal instruction some have gotten directly from Buddha. One was taken to a volcano and told to jump in. When he did so he became one with the earth. In another meditation he became a tree. Another teacher-meditator experienced becoming a leaf on a tree which then fell to earth, decayed and became part of the earth.

"They see Buddha and the disciples. Communication is by direct telepathy, so language is irrelevant. One does get clear verbal communications, but more impressive are their descriptions of experiences such as feeling oneself becoming a tree."

Full story.

[fabianfred]

I think they must have lost their concentration and are dreaming....talking to Buddhas and becoming trees

[Jawnie]

I didn't read the full article. Even so, pardon me if I'm a little skeptical about some of the claims made in the short version.

[janverbeem]

"Of 16 teachers since the very beginning, six experienced nirvana temporarily. An additional three transcended beyond this world to Dhammakaya, and another three more achieved trance states like heavenly bliss. The remaining four only attained inner peace."<BR sab="380"><BR sab="381">

I thought that kind of "medicines" were illegal in Thailand.

[sabaijai]

The Dhammakaya cult continues to proliferate.

[khaowong1]

I know Dr. Barton personally. I stayed with him for 2 weeks back in 2007. They have a different way of studying meditation. Personally, I had a hard time understanding it. He told me the storys of people reaching and talking to Buddha after only two weeks of meditation. It's just my personal feelings these people were not telling the truth or had great imaginations. Like Sabaijai says, the Dhammakaya are pretty strange.

[Jawnie]

So, what people are saying is that this is 'functioning' group, Dhammakaya, in Thailand that says their form of meditation leads to great spiritual attainment in a very short time? Do they come to Bangkok and teach or give public lectures, not that I am very interested. It seems to me that one could establish whether their claims are legitimate with just a couple of question on the finer points of Buddhist practice or philosophy, such as "what are the 37 Limbs of Enlightenment?" or ask them to explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc. Anyone with the realization they claim would be able to answer such question immediately, completely, and without any error.

[fabianfred]

So, what people are saying is that this is 'functioning' group, Dhammakaya, in Thailand that says their form of meditation leads to great spiritual attainment in a very short time? Do they come to Bangkok and teach or give public lectures, not that I am very interested. It seems to me that one could establish whether their claims are legitimate with just a couple of question on the finer points of Buddhist practice or philosophy, such as "what are the 37 Limbs of Enlightenment?" or ask them to explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc. Anyone with the realization they claim would be able to answer such question immediately, completely, and without any error.

Once again you are quoting Mahayana concepts..... 37 limbs of enlightenment...... mandala....visualisation.........Dhammakaya and here are Theravada.

[BoonToong]

The Dhammakaya cult continues to proliferate.

I live in Thailand, was ordained for a very short time last year, and was thinking about going to stay with them at Ratchaburi. A Thai friend of mine recommends it.

Can you please elaborate on 'cult'? If you are uncomfortable with quoting publicly, then I would be very grateful for a PM or a link to some other websites giving any kind of critique.

I had a 'bad' experience at a Goenka Vipassana course last year and I wish I had researched it more before I went.

Thank you.

[Brucenkhamen]

So, what people are saying is that this is 'functioning' group, Dhammakaya, in Thailand that says their form of meditation leads to great spiritual attainment in a very short time? Do they come to Bangkok and teach or give public lectures, not that I am very interested.

They are a very well known cult in Thailand.

It seems to me that one could establish whether their claims are legitimate with just a couple of question on the finer points of Buddhist practice or philosophy, such as "what are the 37 Limbs of Enlightenment?" or ask them to explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc. Anyone with the realization they claim would be able to answer such question immediately, completely, and without any error.

That's a pretty odd definition of enlightenment, the ability to recite a list from memory and explain about mandala practise which is only used by a small number of Buddhists anyway.

The notion that one can get enlightened by teaching monks english for a couple of weeks is just so silly we need not grace it with a response. Next they'll be selling enlightenment on their web site.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Brucenkhamen

[Jawnie]

So, what people are saying is that this is 'functioning' group, Dhammakaya, in Thailand that says their form of meditation leads to great spiritual attainment in a very short time? Do they come to Bangkok and teach or give public lectures, not that I am very interested.

They are a very well known cult in Thailand.

It seems to me that one could establish whether their claims are legitimate with just a couple of question on the finer points of Buddhist practice or philosophy, such as "what are the 37 Limbs of Enlightenment?" or ask them to explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc. Anyone with the realization they claim would be able to answer such question immediately, completely, and without any error.

That's a pretty odd definition of enlightenment, the ability to recite a list from memory and explain about mandala practise which is only used by a small number of Buddhists anyway.

The notion that one can get enlightened by teaching monks english for a couple of weeks is just so silly we need not grace it with a response. Next they'll be selling enlightenment on their web site.

The hostility of some Thai Buddhists toward other forms of Buddhism is quite astounding. It's very similar to Christian intolerance of other religions or Christian groups. It's sad, really.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Jawnie

[Brucenkhamen]

The hostility of some Thai Buddhists toward other forms of Buddhism is quite astounding. It's very similar to Christian intolerance of other religions or Christian groups. It's sad, really.

Your post said you thought the way to determine if someone was enlightened is that they could "explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc". Considering mandala practice is only done in Tibetan Buddhism, and I suspect only some branches, the subtext was that only Tibetan Buddhists can become enlightened. Previously you labelled Theravadin Buddhists with a derogatory term and continued to do so after the error was pointed out.

If you don't want hostility don't invite it, present your ideas in an open minded way encouraging discussion.

I think Fred is incorrect this is not a Theravadin forum, of course as Thailand is a Theravadin country then mostly this is what is discussed here but I think most people will welcome your contributions about the branch of Buddhism that you practise if you can do so without emotively labelling people who think differently from you as hostile or intolerant.

[Brucenkhamen]

I live in Thailand, was ordained for a very short time last year, and was thinking about going to stay with them at Ratchaburi. A Thai friend of mine recommends it.

Can you please elaborate on 'cult'? If you are uncomfortable with quoting publicly, then I would be very grateful for a PM or a link to some other websites giving any kind of critique.

I had a 'bad' experience at a Goenka Vipassana course last year and I wish I had researched it more before I went.

Some people have a negative reaction to the way Goenka's retreats are run, it is a very narrow and strict presentation of vipassana practice but it is effective. I don't really like it compared with other centres I've been to but I've been back many times because I find it useful.

An obvious difference between this and Dhammakaya is that with Goenka they obviously aren't after your money, they won't even accept donations unless you've done a course with them wheras from what Thai people tell me Dhammakaya is all about getting you to open your wallet.

There are a lot of places in Thailand that don't have these kinds of issues, this thread might be useful

[Jawnie]

The hostility of some Thai Buddhists toward other forms of Buddhism is quite astounding. It's very similar to Christian intolerance of other religions or Christian groups. It's sad, really.

Your post said you thought the way to determine if someone was enlightened is that they could "explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc". Considering mandala practice is only done in Tibetan Buddhism, and I suspect only some branches, the subtext was that only Tibetan Buddhists can become enlightened. Previously you labelled Theravadin Buddhists with a derogatory term and continued to do so after the error was pointed out.

If you don't want hostility don't invite it, present your ideas in an open minded way encouraging discussion.

I think Fred is incorrect this is not a Theravadin forum, of course as Thailand is a Theravadin country then mostly this is what is discussed here but I think most people will welcome your contributions about the branch of Buddhism that you practise if you can do so without emotively labelling people who think differently from you as hostile or intolerant.

This is so sad.

There was no subtext so please don't put words into my mouth.

It is quite obvious that you don't welcome the contribution, but don't try to speak for others. You are not privy to the private messages I get regarding my contributions.

I have not used the term Hinayana since it was dealt with previously. Do you think you can let go of that? I have.

This is so sad.

[Brucenkhamen]

This is so sad.

If you choose sadness then that is just a reaction you've chosen.

There was no subtext so please don't put words into my mouth.

Then this would be an opportunity to explain what you meant. I've explained how logically my interpretation was arrived at, I'd be happy to be wrong, if that wan't what you meant then I'm sure you are capable of clarifying without without getting into emotive language.

I have not used the term Hinayana since it was dealt with previously. Do you think you can let go of that? I have.

This is so sad.

You used it once immediately after I pointed it out so I posted links for a more complete explanation, but yes after that you haven't used it as far as I've noticed, much appreciated.

I only refer to this because I wasn't aware of anything else that would make you feel you needed to label some Thai Buddhists as hostile and intolerant, this one thread just didn't seem enough.

So whether you feel the responses you've had are justified or not surely it would be more constructive to engage with the ideas presented rather than label people hostile and intolerant, or a situation as sad.

[Jawnie]

This is so sad.

If you choose sadness then that is just a reaction you've chosen.

There was no subtext so please don't put words into my mouth.

Then this would be an opportunity to explain what you meant. I've explained how logically my interpretation was arrived at, I'd be happy to be wrong, if that wan't what you meant then I'm sure you are capable of clarifying without without getting into emotive language.

I have not used the term Hinayana since it was dealt with previously. Do you think you can let go of that? I have.

This is so sad.

You used it once immediately after I pointed it out so I posted links for a more complete explanation, but yes after that you haven't used it as far as I've noticed, much appreciated.

I only refer to this because I wasn't aware of anything else that would make you feel you needed to label some Thai Buddhists as hostile and intolerant, this one thread just didn't seem enough.

So whether you feel the responses you've had are justified or not surely it would be more constructive to engage with the ideas presented rather than label people hostile and intolerant, or a situation as sad.

You are off-topic. This thread didn't start as a critique of my net etiquette. I said nothing inappropriate or wrong in my comments regarding the topic of this thread.

[Brucenkhamen]

You are off-topic. This thread didn't start as a critique of my net etiquette. I said nothing inappropriate or wrong in my comments regarding the topic of this thread.

Indeed, we went off topic when you decided to post that some Thai Buddhists are intolerant and hostile etc and this board was sad.

Did you expect docile acceptance to such statements?

If you want to be on topic then nobody is stopping you. A good start might be to explain why you think that the ability to "explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc" is a good yardstick by which to determine if somebody is enlightened.

[sabaijai]

Calm down, folks! I understand where Bruce is coming from with his question about how memorising lists could be indicative of enlightenment, so why not just elaborate, Jawnie?

The concept of 'englightement' is a tricky one, regardless.

All vehicles welcome here.

BTW if you have a problem with someone's posting style, best to PM me or use the Report button.

[lungmi]

You are off-topic. This thread didn't start as a critique of my net etiquette. I said nothing inappropriate or wrong in my comments regarding the topic of this thread.

Indeed, we went off topic when you decided to post that some Thai Buddhists are intolerant and hostile etc and this board was sad.

Did you expect docile acceptance to such statements?

If you want to be on topic then nobody is stopping you. A good start might be to explain why you think that the ability to "explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc" is a good yardstick by which to determine if somebody is enlightened.

Seconded. Dhammakaya has the freedom to practise but not as Buddhist group. Basic teachings of the Buddha they deny: all dhammas are annatta. For them not, pay money, follow in concentration camps of meditation (ten thousend people meditate in a brainwashed order, Nazi and soviet style) and you g go to awakening and you have the guarantee to have special appointment for an audience with the Buddha.

[Jawnie]

Someone who has achieved Nirvana will be able to discuss philosophy and practice quite easily. The two areas pointed out, the 37 wings and the mandala visualization, are two such topical practice areas which someone who has achieved Nirvana should be able to teach/explain quite easily and extensively. It is not about simply memorizing lists, it's about the level of realization someone claims to have achieved and also being able to present it coherently. Questioning and debating on topics like this is a standard part of training for Tibetan monks.

[Jawnie]

So, what people are saying is that this is 'functioning' group, Dhammakaya, in Thailand that says their form of meditation leads to great spiritual attainment in a very short time? Do they come to Bangkok and teach or give public lectures, not that I am very interested. It seems to me that one could establish whether their claims are legitimate with just a couple of question on the finer points of Buddhist practice or philosophy, such as "what are the 37 Limbs of Enlightenment?" or ask them to explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc. Anyone with the realization they claim would be able to answer such question immediately, completely, and without any error.

Once again you are quoting Mahayana concepts..... 37 limbs of enlightenment...... mandala....visualisation.........Dhammakaya and here are Theravada.

Doing so doesn't bother me nearly as much as it seems to bother you. It's still Dharma.

[Brucenkhamen]

Someone who has achieved Nirvana will be able to discuss philosophy and practice quite easily. The two areas pointed out, the 37 wings and the mandala visualization, are two such topical practice areas which someone who has achieved Nirvana should be able to teach/explain quite easily and extensively. It is not about simply memorizing lists, it's about the level of realization someone claims to have achieved and also being able to present it coherently. Questioning and debating on topics like this is a standard part of training for Tibetan monks.

Sounds like you equate nirvana (aka enlightenment) with having a phd in majoring in Buddhism, in addition to having a natural ability to teach.

Of course anyone who has never done mandala visualization is immediately disqualified because they wouldn't know how to explain it other than perhaps a bit of theory, so probably 95% of Buddhists are disqualified by that definition.

You might want to check out the scriptural definition, while there are some differences between mahayana and theravada points of view I doubt there are any that would support yours. This might be a good start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana "The word literally means "blowing out" or "extinguish" — referring in the Buddhist context, to the blowing out of the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion". Nothing to do with mandala practise nor intellectual knowledge nor the ability to teach.

[rockyysdt]

Someone who has achieved Nirvana will be able to discuss philosophy and practice quite easily. The two areas pointed out, the 37 wings and the mandala visualization, are two such topical practice areas which someone who has achieved Nirvana should be able to teach/explain quite easily and extensively. It is not about simply memorizing lists, it's about the level of realization someone claims to have achieved and also being able to present it coherently. Questioning and debating on topics like this is a standard part of training for Tibetan monks.

Sounds like you equate nirvana (aka enlightenment) with having a phd in majoring in Buddhism, in addition to having a natural ability to teach.

Of course anyone who has never done mandala visualization is immediately disqualified because they wouldn't know how to explain it other than perhaps a bit of theory, so probably 95% of Buddhists are disqualified by that definition.

You might want to check out the scriptural definition, while there are some differences between mahayana and theravada points of view I doubt there are any that would support yours. This might be a good start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana "The word literally means "blowing out" or "extinguish" — referring in the Buddhist context, to the blowing out of the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion". Nothing to do with mandala practise nor intellectual knowledge nor the ability to teach.

Hi Bruce.

It seems to me that it's not about the content of ones reply but the way one presents it.

If a poster is technically incorrect why not indicate why in an empathetic rather than adversarial way?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought reaching Nirvana/Enlightenment renders one "all knowing".

Wouldn't one who is "all knowing" be able to teach anything?

Although 37 wings & mandala visualization may be Mahayanan, and sounds quite complex, isn't it a possible path worth exploring?

Edited April 7, 2011 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

You might want to check out the scriptural definition, while there are some differences between mahayana and theravada points of view I doubt there are any that would support yours. This might be a good start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana "The word literally means "blowing out" or "extinguish" — referring in the Buddhist context, to the blowing out of the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion". Nothing to do with mandala practise nor intellectual knowledge nor the ability to teach.

"Blowing out" or "extinguish" refers to the cessation of re birth, but I'm sure there is more, otherwise we would be pursuing a practice that leads to cessation.

Suffering is preferable to non existence.

Of course what "more" constitutes was never described by the Buddha, other than remembering countless prior lives amongst other things.

Edited April 7, 2011 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

It seems to me that it's not about the content of ones reply but the way one presents it.

If a poster is technically incorrect why not indicate why in an empathetic rather than adversarial way?

In my opinion that's exactly what I've done. Any adversarialness (if that's a real word) was in regard to the emotively labelling Thai Buddhists as hostile and intolerant, if confronting such behaviour makes me adversarial so be it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought reaching Nirvana/Enlightenment renders one "all knowing".

Wouldn't one who is "all knowing" be able to teach anything?

I don't know about that but if what you say is true they would be equally skilled in teaching macrame, or mathematics, or golf, which would make the original statement which started this pointless.

Although 37 wings & mandala visualization may be Mahayanan, and sounds quite complex, isn't it a possible path worth exploring?

The 37 limbs Jawnie referred to I assume are what we'd call the 37 wings of awakening, and it's Pali Canon through and through so not exclusive to Mahayana. Mandala visualisation is most probably worth exploring, as are a lot of things in life, but it's isn't the only key to or definition of enlightenment. Of course if I'm wrong Jawnie will present evidence.

[Brucenkhamen]

"Blowing out" or "extinguish" refers to the cessation of re birth, but I'm sure there is more, otherwise we would be pursuing a practice that leads to cessation.

I don't believe so, I think the article is correct the "Blowing out" or "extinguish" refers to the cessation of desire, aversion, delusion, It's the cooling out of ones striving and battling with experience. This leads to the cessation of becoming, the cessation of the cpmpulsion to continually create a future self, which in turn leads to a cessation of rebirth.

What that means though I'm not sure, I'm not convinced it means the cessation of existence.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Brucenkhamen

[rockyysdt]

"Blowing out" or "extinguish" refers to the cessation of re birth, but I'm sure there is more, otherwise we would be pursuing a practice that leads to cessation.

I don't believe so, I think the article is correct the "Blowing out" or "extinguish" refers to the cessation of desire, aversion, delusion, It's the cooling out of ones striving and battling with experience. This leads to the cessation of becoming, the cessation of the cpmpulsion to continually create a future self, which in turn leads to a cessation of rebirth.

What that means though I'm not sure, I'm not convinced it means the cessation of existence.

Agreed.

One would hope what is left would be vastly superior to life as we know it.

Perhaps all knowing and all seeing?

I'd even go as far as saying "infinity".

[Jawnie]

Someone who has achieved Nirvana will be able to discuss philosophy and practice quite easily. The two areas pointed out, the 37 wings and the mandala visualization, are two such topical practice areas which someone who has achieved Nirvana should be able to teach/explain quite easily and extensively. It is not about simply memorizing lists, it's about the level of realization someone claims to have achieved and also being able to present it coherently. Questioning and debating on topics like this is a standard part of training for Tibetan monks.

Sounds like you equate nirvana (aka enlightenment) with having a phd in majoring in Buddhism, in addition to having a natural ability to teach.

Of course anyone who has never done mandala visualization is immediately disqualified because they wouldn't know how to explain it other than perhaps a bit of theory, so probably 95% of Buddhists are disqualified by that definition.

You might want to check out the scriptural definition, while there are some differences between mahayana and theravada points of view I doubt there are any that would support yours. This might be a good start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana "The word literally means "blowing out" or "extinguish" — referring in the Buddhist context, to the blowing out of the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion". Nothing to do with mandala practise nor intellectual knowledge nor the ability to teach.

[Brucenkhamen]

Only when it suits you.

[Brucenkhamen]

One would hope what is left would be vastly superior to life as we know it.

Perhaps all knowing and all seeing?

I'd even go as far as saying "infinity".

I think that's a better way of looking at it.

It's the concept of self that limits us.