We Need English Proficiency, Not Toys For The Thai Military

[LaoPo]

It would be nice to find the report in total.

LaoPo

FULL REPORT

For those interested in this study (teachers?) here is the full report from the EF Research Unit at Cambridge University:

ENGLISH PROFICIENCY INDEX 2011 - EF-EPI-2011:

http://www.ef.nl/sit...EF-EPI-2011.pdf

On page 5: WORLD

On page 12: EUROPE

On page 14: ASIA (with the remark that Singapore is NOT on the list in Asia; maybe the Cambridge University wasn't interested since English proficiency in S'pore is perfect of course)

On page 16: LATIN AMERICA

LaoPo

[Puschl]

Young people are into Hollywood films and TV series, so catch them young and wherever they are. If Edward and Bella from the hit "Twilight" can speak Thai, kids will not have an urge to understand them in English. So why don't we ban the dubbing of all films and foreign series? To compromise, give them English subtitles, so they learn more English than schools provide them with.

True indeed.

Finns (number 5 in the EF ranking and only beaten by native-speakers of Germanic languages) are in the lucky position that dubbing for 5m people hardly pays off. If their TV channels broadcast foreign programs, they come with the original sound-track and Finnish sub-titles. It's a cheap way of foreign language training that even is a cost-saver. A school could never afford to hire native-speakers from Russia, Sweden, Estonia, England, Germany, France, Spain, ... all at the same time. Of course, TV programs can't replace formal language training, but they are an invaluable supplement for those that decide to learn any of those languages.

Attitude towards a language of course also plays an important role. My parents both grew up in the Russian-occupied part of Austria and learned Russian for several years at school. But the 'commies' never were popular, and when Austria gained it's independence they quickly forgot everything. All my mom remembers nowadays is one nursery-rhyme (which she never taught us when we were little kids).

[AZBill]

Like it or not English is the global language for the developed world. My wife learned to speak it on her own through hard study and practice Learning English expanded her world significantly, and it made all the difference in her opportunities. When we travel to other countries she can usually communicate through English as a common language and certainly made her adjustment to living in America much easier. Learning English does not threaten Thailand other than giving the people more opportunities, which the oppressive elite may not want. But when has the government ever cared about its people?

[LaoPo]

Young people are into Hollywood films and TV series, so catch them young and wherever they are. If Edward and Bella from the hit "Twilight" can speak Thai, kids will not have an urge to understand them in English. So why don't we ban the dubbing of all films and foreign series? To compromise, give them English subtitles, so they learn more English than schools provide them with.

True indeed.

Finns (number 5 in the EF ranking and only beaten by native-speakers of Germanic languages) are in the lucky position that dubbing for 5m people hardly pays off. If their TV channels broadcast foreign programs, they come with the original sound-track and Finnish sub-titles. It's a cheap way of foreign language training that even is a cost-saver. A school could never afford to hire native-speakers from Russia, Sweden, Estonia, England, Germany, France, Spain, ... all at the same time. Of course, TV programs can't replace formal language training, but they are an invaluable supplement for those that decide to learn any of those languages.

It certainly helps, subtitling on movies, to pick up English faster than with dubbing. But Germany is on place 8 in the EF ranking and they use dubbing in 99% of their foreign movies, showed on television or theatres, already for ages.

But it has to do with the educational system in any given country and since 30-40 years ago almost nobody in Germany spoke good English; now many do.

Next to that, the educational system is very important and it is decisive IF one or more languages are taught in a school or not, as an obligation or out of free choice.

THAT is the problem with Thailand; if the government would only install English and Mandarin as obligatory languages they would create a massive advantage for ALL students right at the moment they start joining school at age 4, 5 and 6.

I was educated and studied in 4 languages and I don't regret it for a single moment; it is a massive advantage.

BTW: English is also a Germanic language

LaoPo

[truethailand]

What you need to do is to give all Thais, regardless of their rank or status, a decent education. It might mean that the rich will only be as rich next year as they are this year but it will delay or even prevent the eventual bloodbath.

I dont know why they stopped at English bcos the Maths is dire too, their IQ level needs alot to be desired and there is not a lot right about the Thai education system. They excel in design and creative studies bcos there is no rule book or standard to mark them against. Revamp it...blow it up and start again. Money is wasted in army bric-a-brac which only goes to fill the pockets of the few.

Since Abhisit came into office for one reason or another he has increased the army budget by 10's of billions and earmarked over 100 billion more on defence spending. Hes not the only one and he wont be the last.

Yes the system is designed to keep them dumb. Kids here love to learn like all kids its just that the tools are not there to help them. I have been getting my kids to test drive some online English with work sheets etc and the stuff out there is amazing. My kids and their two Thai friends (very minimal English) sat there for over 2 hours and kept selecting more videos to watch and they all helped each other. I could hear them all trying to pronounce the words. We should not deny children the opportunity to excel to their maximum, it is a crime.

I truly believe like you the system is about to explode on a scale that may shock us farangs. Its not scaremongering, they are being denied the opportunity to improve their life and education is key to everything. They know who is denying them the opportunity and they will eventually take their pound of flesh. Post what you want in reply to this but me and you cannot stop the evolution of this nation.

[folium]

Neither English proficiency (or lack of), nor keeping the military sweet with a bunch of bath toys, are the worst of Thailand's problems.

IMHO a successful country needs the following ingredients:

The rule of law

World-class infrastructure,

A well educated workforce

Free trade

An honest and efficient civil service

The best education systems are by most standards found in Finland, S.Korea and Singapore. In all 3 countries prospective teachers have to finish in the top third of their classes even to apply for teacher training. Meritocracy in any walk of life brings results.

On a more trivial note, but something that can be applied to Thailand in a more wide ranging way, are some comments made by the new manager of Chiang Mai FC.

A Belgian, he has also managed in S. Korea, and he sees the biggest obstacles to success in Thailand's football are the ludicrous culture of deference (a player cannot/will not criticize an elder player) and the cop-out of "mai pen rai". A S.Korean team that loses, analyses its mistakes and puts them right; mai pen rai absolves the Thai players of any responsibility and therefore requires no action.

Thailand on the football pitach, as in so many other areas of life, massively underperforms its potential whilst at the same time comprehensively fails to serve its citizens in any form of fair or efficient fashion.

What will the outcome be? LOS, you've got to be kidding. What does the vast majority of this country have to smile about, especially once they fully grasp how they are being exploited, drop the deference and demand change. In many ways Thailand reminds me of apartheid era S.Africa. Great place if you were on the right side of the tracks but with a limited future apparent to anybody looking beyond the next day. An unsustainable apartheid, based on colour or class (as it is here) is ultimately doomed once the majority of the population call the ruling class's bluff. Last April will then seem just a walk in the park.

Tunisia's corrupt and self-serving regime was brought down by the suicide of a single "little person" fed up with corruption and petty minded bureaucracy. If you have enough flammable material it only takes one spark....

Edited April 3, 2011 by folium

[licentiapoetica]

Neither English proficiency (or lack of), nor keeping the military sweet with a bunch of bath toys, are the worst of Thailand's problems.

IMHO a successful country needs the following ingredients:

The rule of law

World-class infrastructure,

A well educated workforce

Free trade

An honest and efficient civil service

The best education systems are by most standards found in Finland, S.Korea and Singapore. In all 3 countries prospective teachers have to finish in the top third of their classes even to apply for teacher training. Meritocracy in any walk of life brings results.

On a more trivial note, but something that can be applied to Thailand in a more wide ranging way, are some comments made by the new manager of Chiang Mai FC.

A Belgian, he has also managed in S. Korea, and he sees the biggest obstacles to success in Thailand's football are the ludicrous culture of deference (a player cannot/will not criticize an elder player) and the cop-out of "mai pen rai". A S.Korean team that loses, analyses its mistakes and puts them right; mai pen rai absolves the Thai players of any responsibility and therefore requires no action.

Thailand on the football pitach, as in so many other areas of life, massively underperforms its potential whilst at the same time comprehensively fails to serve its citizens in any form of fair or efficient fashion.

What will the outcome be? LOS, you've got to be kidding. What does the vast majority of this country have to smile about, especially once they fully grasp how they are being exploited, drop the deference and demand change. In many ways Thailand reminds me of apartheid era S.Africa. Great place if you were on the right side of the tracks but with a limited future apparent to anybody looking beyond the next day. An unsustainable apartheid, based on colour or class (as it is here) is ultimately doomed once the majority of the population call the ruling class's bluff. Last April will then seem just a walk in the park.

Tunisia's corrupt and self-serving regime was brought down by the suicide of a single "little person" fed up with corruption and petty minded bureaucracy. If you have enough flammable material it only takes one spark....

GREAT comment about Thailand and South Africa under apartheid! It's a pity so few "farang" here in Thailand agree with this. Most farang support the status quo here because they, too, benefit from it - just like the Thai elite.

[Lannatyne]

The reason Singapore, and indeed the Phillipines, aren't on this list is because English in an 'official' language in both of these countries. The official language in Malaysia in Bahasa.

Despite being 34th, I found the English language skills of Indonesians I met far superior to those generally found here in Phuket, one of the "worlds great international destinations".

People and posters often say that the eductaion system needs to improve. It does, but that won't solve the problem. Can you imagine a good education system, but with ambivalent and ignorant parents dragging down their student kids, "No, don't do your English homework, come and watch the soaps with the family."

It just ain't going to happen, and if it does, it will take 2 generations at least to see fruits. Interesting to see facts behind Germany's position of 9th. 40 years ago, they had little or no English language training. So, it's a WHOLE 40 YEARS before they've climbed up to a good level. And that is with a good educational infrastructure, and an outward-looking 'western' attitude.

I'm afraid I see a very poor future for Thailand, and, in time, this will make the elite even more oppressive. Sadly, those at the bottom of the food chain will still believe and do as they're told.

[Sunderland]

One dictionary for every tambon (district) will be the next big government move.

[Thaddeus]

I consider that Chinese language will be most important for thai people soon. Sutep is genius man. He knows much more than we.

How do you spell www in Mandarin?

[folium]

In apartheid era S.Africa the English white population would winge and moan about the Afrikaaners, but come election time they would be praying for a nationalist (the Afrikaaner party) victory as that would ensure the continuance of apartheid and their cosy little lives.

Similarly here many farangs bitch endlessly about LOS (probably makes up about 50% of what goes on TV), but boy are they grateful for being able to live a lifestyle they could never even dream of in their own countries, plus pretty litlle Thai girls/boys who defer to everything "farang boy" does and says.

Does this make me a smug hypocrite? I'm here to do a job but that does not make me blind to the dark side of this country, nor do I choose to ignore it. Can I change it? No, it's not my place. it's the people of any country that has to make the changes that are required (see the Middle East). Iraq/Afghanistan just underline the fact that outsiders cannot make a country change (however noble some of the intentions are, amongst the many ignoble ones).

I hope that this country can work it out without bloodshed but the longer it goes on the less chance of that happening. The present situation is unsustainable. Mai pen rai, deference and the class system cannot preserve a broken situation indefinitely.

Neither English proficiency (or lack of), nor keeping the military sweet with a bunch of bath toys, are the worst of Thailand's problems.

IMHO a successful country needs the following ingredients:

The rule of law

World-class infrastructure,

A well educated workforce

Free trade

An honest and efficient civil service

The best education systems are by most standards found in Finland, S.Korea and Singapore. In all 3 countries prospective teachers have to finish in the top third of their classes even to apply for teacher training. Meritocracy in any walk of life brings results.

On a more trivial note, but something that can be applied to Thailand in a more wide ranging way, are some comments made by the new manager of Chiang Mai FC.

A Belgian, he has also managed in S. Korea, and he sees the biggest obstacles to success in Thailand's football are the ludicrous culture of deference (a player cannot/will not criticize an elder player) and the cop-out of "mai pen rai". A S.Korean team that loses, analyses its mistakes and puts them right; mai pen rai absolves the Thai players of any responsibility and therefore requires no action.

Thailand on the football pitach, as in so many other areas of life, massively underperforms its potential whilst at the same time comprehensively fails to serve its citizens in any form of fair or efficient fashion.

What will the outcome be? LOS, you've got to be kidding. What does the vast majority of this country have to smile about, especially once they fully grasp how they are being exploited, drop the deference and demand change. In many ways Thailand reminds me of apartheid era S.Africa. Great place if you were on the right side of the tracks but with a limited future apparent to anybody looking beyond the next day. An unsustainable apartheid, based on colour or class (as it is here) is ultimately doomed once the majority of the population call the ruling class's bluff. Last April will then seem just a walk in the park.

Tunisia's corrupt and self-serving regime was brought down by the suicide of a single "little person" fed up with corruption and petty minded bureaucracy. If you have enough flammable material it only takes one spark....

GREAT comment about Thailand and South Africa under apartheid! It's a pity so few "farang" here in Thailand agree with this. Most farang support the status quo here because they, too, benefit from it - just like the Thai elite.

[softgeorge]

I read on here awhile back how the Thai government was concerned about the english language taking over the thai language and they wanted to cease with the English language in schools.

[softgeorge]

The English language is not going to stop the generals staging a coup at whim. That nice new shinning tank or a dozen state of the art aircraft carriers might.

[CosmicSurfer]

Neither English proficiency (or lack of), nor keeping the military sweet with a bunch of bath toys, are the worst of Thailand's problems.

IMHO a successful country needs the following ingredients:

The rule of law

World-class infrastructure,

A well educated workforce

Free trade

An honest and efficient civil service

The best education systems are by most standards found in Finland, S.Korea and Singapore. In all 3 countries prospective teachers have to finish in the top third of their classes even to apply for teacher training. Meritocracy in any walk of life brings results.

On a more trivial note, but something that can be applied to Thailand in a more wide ranging way, are some comments made by the new manager of Chiang Mai FC.

A Belgian, he has also managed in S. Korea, and he sees the biggest obstacles to success in Thailand's football are the ludicrous culture of deference (a player cannot/will not criticize an elder player) and the cop-out of "mai pen rai". A S.Korean team that loses, analyses its mistakes and puts them right; mai pen rai absolves the Thai players of any responsibility and therefore requires no action.

Thailand on the football pitach, as in so many other areas of life, massively underperforms its potential whilst at the same time comprehensively fails to serve its citizens in any form of fair or efficient fashion.

What will the outcome be? LOS, you've got to be kidding. What does the vast majority of this country have to smile about, especially once they fully grasp how they are being exploited, drop the deference and demand change. In many ways Thailand reminds me of apartheid era S.Africa. Great place if you were on the right side of the tracks but with a limited future apparent to anybody looking beyond the next day. An unsustainable apartheid, based on colour or class (as it is here) is ultimately doomed once the majority of the population call the ruling class's bluff. Last April will then seem just a walk in the park.

Tunisia's corrupt and self-serving regime was brought down by the suicide of a single "little person" fed up with corruption and petty minded bureaucracy. If you have enough flammable material it only takes one spark....

YES +1

[Soutpeel]

In apartheid era S.Africa the English white population would winge and moan about the Afrikaaners, but come election time they would be praying for a nationalist (the Afrikaaner party) victory as that would ensure the continuance of apartheid and their cosy little lives.

I distinctly remember it being the other way around where the the Afrikaaners were moaning about the white English speaking population, and at the time South Africa was for all intents and purposes a 1 party state...so bascially no one gave a f*kc who won the election....

So you example as relating this to Thailand is very poor

[Rhys]

Why have a hissy fit it is all lip service...

[robsamui]

300 teachers for the first and later 1000..... that's ridiculous.

The English teachers can't speak English, so why not teach them first. I know only Thailand where a teacher is allowed to teach English even he himself don't speak English. 1000 native speakers don't cure the misfit in education, neither on school level nor in the universties. As mentioned above, it is part of the Thai education system to keep the main part of population uneducated, so they are easier to manipulate. 1000 teachers are nothing more than a writen down thing to show ..."we do something"... but for sure it is not a really attempt to solve a problem. Its just an eyewash.....

fatfather

A few years ago I found myself in regular email correspondence with the Head of English at (XXX) university in Bangkok. I was totally gobsmacked by her lack of ability in English. Certainly it is universal that written English always falls behind spoken English. But this is the Head of Department in a big BKK university, and her grasp of punctuation and grammar was worse than several middle-management Thai friends I have.

On the other hand I might point out also that few English nationals who are teachers have a competent grasp of their own language. I recently viewed a website belonging to an international school on Koh Samui. The mission statement by their Head of English demonstrated that she didn't understand the use of commas (or punctuation at all, other than the use of full stops) and in the first paragraph alone there were three punctuation errors and two glaring howlers in sentence structure and grammar.

But this is all academic (ahem ) It is the verbal ability in the junior schools that is the aim here and the only way to learn any language is by constant repetition and re-enforcement. Children's TV programs in English. Foreign films subtitled and not dubbed-over in Thai. Thai teachers in the junior schools using occasional English phrases and expressions in all subjects and in all lessons, and so on.

It is quite one thing to wish to retain a national and cultural heritage and the Thai Nation has managed to get away with this attitude so far. And perhaps 50 years ago Thailand was able to do this. But now, today, no country can exist in isolation. A world economy has emerged with every nation being affected by economic and political forces outside of their borders or their control. And if the proud and xenophobic Thai ruling classes can't grasp this then they are guilty of sacrificing their country, their entire nation, purely for reasons of archaic nationalistic pride.

At the bottom of a dunghill somewhere there is undoubtedly one small grub who has dug himself in whilst all the rest of his kind has become butterflies and flown away. And he is smug and pleased with himself, this lonely little grub, keeping himself company by chanting over and over again, "I'm a magnificent grub. I survived; I didn't get eaten. I'm a magnificent grub. I survived; I didn't get eaten." Seems to me that this sums up the nationalistic attitude of Thailand quite well . . .

R

Edited April 3, 2011 by robsamui

[inmysights]

I speak vely good english. I spend long time in University to gain my bachelors degree. I no understand why Farang no speak good English. Maybe poor education and no go good university same same we have Thailand.

Classic, and believe me, there are plenty who have this mindset. This reminds me of a story my wife told me a few years ago. She was studying in a masters program at one of the supposed 'elite' universities in Thailand. Her particular program was partially conducted in English, and required a TOEIC (or TOEFL, I can't remember) score for admission. During a class discussion about the economy, she was saying 'dollars' with typical western-style pronunciation. Her classmates couldn't understand why she pronounced it 'dollars' rather than 'daw-LUR' (thai style, with the heavy stress on the last part). Some even went as far to 'correct' her pronunciation to 'daw-LUR' and insisted her pronunciation was wrong!

This reminds me of an incident some years ogo where, whilst in a branch of a very well known chain of bookstores here, I was trying to get the 'English' speaking staff to understand that I wanted to order a book. Eventually I was surrounded by four or five saleswomen, one of which I presumed to be the manager who asked me what I wanted. Again I repeated the word 'order', to which she replied 'Oh you wan' or-DUR. In English we say or-DUR. Where you flom?' 'England' I replied At which point they all curtsied and waiied LOL'.

My Thai is much better now. But I still say compu-TUR and furni-CHUR, there being no equivalent in Thai.

Edited April 3, 2011 by inmysights

[folium]

The Boers had little to worry about in apartheid SA as they ran the show and having the whiphand (literally, or should I say sjambok-hand)was payback for the Boer War. The English white S.Africans were more interested in making money and thus in preserving the status quo.

The point I was making was that the English white S.Africans had a vested economic interest in apartheid continuing, despite what they might say in dinner party conversation and to non S.African friends and colleagues.

Similarly here many farangs bitch about the situation and governance of Thailand, but are enjoying a very nice lifestyle and economic existence, based on that very same status quo.

Whether you were white trash in S.Africa or for quite a few farang here, your situation and fortunate lifestyle were/are a product of a profoundly flawed and unjust society

In apartheid era S.Africa the English white population would winge and moan about the Afrikaaners, but come election time they would be praying for a nationalist (the Afrikaaner party) victory as that would ensure the continuance of apartheid and their cosy little lives.

I distinctly remember it being the other way around where the the Afrikaaners were moaning about the white English speaking population, and at the time South Africa was for all intents and purposes a 1 party state...so bascially no one gave a f*kc who won the election....

So you example as relating this to Thailand is very poor

[LaoPo]

I consider that Chinese language will be most important for thai people soon. Sutep is genius man. He knows much more than we.

How do you spell www in Mandarin?

www OR da bu liu-da bu liu-da bu liu

Chinese also use the 26 letters of our alphabet to type Chinese characters.

LaoPo

[mark45y]

I consider that Chinese language will be most important for thai people soon. Sutep is genius man. He knows much more than we.

How do you spell www in Mandarin?

www OR da bu liu-da bu liu-da bu liu

Chinese also use the 26 letters of our alphabet to type Chinese characters.

LaoPo

Won't take long to change over the keyboards and get the brilliant Thai engineers up to speed with the Chinese alphabet.

[Thaddeus]

I consider that Chinese language will be most important for thai people soon. Sutep is genius man. He knows much more than we.

How do you spell www in Mandarin?

www OR da bu liu-da bu liu-da bu liu

Chinese also use the 26 letters of our alphabet to type Chinese characters.

LaoPo

Won't take long to change over the keyboards and get the brilliant Thai engineers up to speed with the Chinese alphabet.

On my mark, unleash hell...... I have the snowball.

(and now the built-in forum offensive word remover is going to kick in on a word that isn't IMO)

//edit/bugger, it didn't

Edited April 3, 2011 by Thaddeus

[dunkin2012]

It would be nice to find the report in total.

LaoPo

FULL REPORT

For those interested in this study (teachers?) here is the full report from the EF Research Unit at Cambridge University:

ENGLISH PROFICIENCY INDEX 2011 - EF-EPI-2011:

http://www.ef.nl/sit...EF-EPI-2011.pdf

On page 5: WORLD

On page 12: EUROPE

On page 14: ASIA (with the remark that Singapore is NOT on the list in Asia; maybe the Cambridge University wasn't interested since English proficiency in S'pore is perfect of course)

On page 16: LATIN AMERICA

LaoPo

Singapore is a bit too small then ...they missed it on the map...

Some countries aren't on the list.....

Edited April 5, 2011 by dunkin2012

[dunkin2012]

if you are not doin' anythin' now.... why don't you guys educate 'em....

by joinin' none-profit organizations or formin' one if you can....

To help the Thai... out............