Teaching In Issan?

[stepenwolf1958]

I understand that if you have an accent which is difficult for your prospective Thai employers to understand, that you would find it difficult to gain employment irrespective of your birthplace. What I believe, the point of using the term 'native speaker' is, is that a native speaker should be able to form sentences correctly in the language they are teaching. Otherwise you will be passing on incorrect language skills to your students.

I don't doubt, Steppenwolf, anything you say regarding your experiences. It's just a little surprising that you focus on accents as opposed to things like grammar and word order in sentences, which native speakers should be able to teach correctly.

I think many posters here, who are native speakers of English, but may not be involved in the teaching profession, are often surprised that people who can not form English sentences correctly, are employed as English teachers.

It may well be the case that this goes un-noticed by the employer because the person has a nice shirt and tie and looks the part, but it's still surprising to some, myself included.

Ouch!

My crystal ball works as well, i guess.

Please read this link

As i told here already, MoE was insisting on variety of accents.

This time, officials gone deeper and separated tasks for teachers on SPEAKING, LISTENING skills and GRAMMAR and READING skills. Four skills but foreigners will be for listening&speaking skills and Thais will be for grammar&reading skills.

That mean importance will be accented about listening and speaking skills as they will pay a big money for NATIVE speakers(up to 83 000) and that high salary will be JUST and ONLY for native speakers but EXPERIENCED TEACHERS only. Experienced in meaning that you are retired or active teacher somewhere in the West.

Good idea. This is what i was doing by my own method some 2 years or so, ago.

So, great salaries but just for native speakers but only TEACHERS.

I just hope they will not be from LA county as there are so bad teachers. Proficiency in English and math is incredibly low there. Only 29%(according to FOX TV)

[charliemike11]

Totally off topic but it's late and your online so I need to ask do you know any kid friendly waterfalls in Udon Thani area please Have heard tham Ngarm is a 5 kilo walk so think Yung Thong is best is that right sorry to interupt your topic....?

[jdinasia]

Note --- this is a personal opinion --- but the opinion of someone that does hiring but not the teaching.

If you cannot use English to fill out a lesson plan, if you cannot construct a sentence that is grammatically correct every time, if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job. If you are a true native speaker but your accent is so thick that you cannot be understood by an alert native speaker from somewhere else, then you don't get a job.

We do employ non-native speakers, IF they are skilled in all 4 skills at around an IELTS 7.0 or better in all bands and have the ability to speak clearly without an excessive accent getting in the way. My absolute best grammar teacher in any of our programs is Thai. She studied for her BA and MA in Sydney and speaks English with a hint of Thai accent mixed with a large amount of an Australian accent. She is absolutely awesome and can explain grammar better than any other teacher I have met. She is not paid less than any of the native speakers. Face it, if you can't write a sentence correctly then you aren't speaking correctly either. In one of our specialty programs we end up spending months correcting the broken English patterns that some Thais learn from non-native speakers.

[jdinasia]

I understand that if you have an accent which is difficult for your prospective Thai employers to understand, that you would find it difficult to gain employment irrespective of your birthplace. What I believe, the point of using the term 'native speaker' is, is that a native speaker should be able to form sentences correctly in the language they are teaching. Otherwise you will be passing on incorrect language skills to your students.

I don't doubt, Steppenwolf, anything you say regarding your experiences. It's just a little surprising that you focus on accents as opposed to things like grammar and word order in sentences, which native speakers should be able to teach correctly.

I think many posters here, who are native speakers of English, but may not be involved in the teaching profession, are often surprised that people who can not form English sentences correctly, are employed as English teachers.

It may well be the case that this goes un-noticed by the employer because the person has a nice shirt and tie and looks the part, but it's still surprising to some, myself included.

I agree with all your comments about English and English teachers. That being said, in some areas of Isaan, there are so few white faces (it counts!) and so few available teachers that some schools will take anyone that shows up and dresses properly regardless of ability.

[stepenwolf1958]

Totally off topic but it's late and your online so I need to ask do you know any kid friendly waterfalls in Udon Thani area please Have heard tham Ngarm is a 5 kilo walk so think Yung Thong is best is that right sorry to interupt your topic....?

i was passing by and spent some few hours in Khoi Nang Waterfall but to be frankly, i would not say any waterfall is kid friendly. I saw Thai kids playing last time there but i would never allow to my child to do the same.

[stepenwolf1958]

Note --- this is a personal opinion --- but the opinion of someone that does hiring but not the teaching.

If you cannot use English to fill out a lesson plan, if you cannot construct a sentence that is grammatically correct every time, if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job. If you are a true native speaker but your accent is so thick that you cannot be understood by an alert native speaker from somewhere else, then you don't get a job.

We do employ non-native speakers, IF they are skilled in all 4 skills at around an IELTS 7.0 or better in all bands and have the ability to speak clearly without an excessive accent getting in the way. My absolute best grammar teacher in any of our programs is Thai. She studied for her BA and MA in Sydney and speaks English with a hint of Thai accent mixed with a large amount of an Australian accent. She is absolutely awesome and can explain grammar better than any other teacher I have met. She is not paid less than any of the native speakers. Face it, if you can't write a sentence correctly then you aren't speaking correctly either. In one of our specialty programs we end up spending months correcting the broken English patterns that some Thais learn from non-native speakers.

Well known thing for any one in Thailand who is, one way or another about teaching is that Thais are almost PERFECT in grammar (many times better than native speakers) but according to that fact, let me ask you JD WHERE is Thailand nowadays about proficiency about English? Thanks to WHO? Those Thai teachers that you are talking about and native speakers but backpackers? Or you will say thanks to employing non native speakers?

Next, how on Earth and Haven you can hire teachers as you are not able to recognize, define and understand WHAT makes ones to be a good teacher? And i bet that Thai girl teacher is awesome. Meaning?

[SteeleJoe]

Thais are almost PERFECT in grammar (many times better than native speakers)

[mizzi39]

quote: Well known thing for any one in Thailand who is, one way or another about teaching is that Thais are almost PERFECT in grammar (many times better than native speakers)

OK, What's the punchline?

[SteeleJoe]

Typical conversation SteeleJoe has with any of a dozen Thais (university graduates all) he talks to every day:

Joe: So Generic Thai Person whom I like And Certainly See as My Social Equal, how was your weekend?

Generic Thai Person whom I like And Certainly See as My Social Equal: I'm not good. I stay home all day. But yesterday I go to watch movie with my friend.

Joe: Just 2 of you?

Generic Thai Person whom I like And Certainly See as My Social Equal: No, we go 5 people. I'm like it too much. Then we go shopping. It so funny. But today I must to go to shopping again for buy some book.

This is not even slightly exaggerated. Indeed it's nowhere near near the worst.

It should go without saying that there are Thais who can speak English better than that and some ( a minority) who can speak it quite well. Even the relatively rare elite who can speak it perfectly. More importantly, I certainly don't think less of the Thais who don't speak English well or put it down to any sort of intellectual inferiority per se. I understand and sympathize.

But "Thais are almost perfect in grammar"? "Many times better than native speakers"?

Absurd.

[stepenwolf1958]

Typical conversation SteeleJoe has with any of a dozen Thais (university graduates all) he talks to every day:

Joe: So Generic Thai Person whom I like And Certainly See as My Social Equal, how was your weekend?

Generic Thai Person whom I like And Certainly See as My Social Equal: I'm not good. I stay home all day. But yesterday I go to watch movie with my friend.

Joe: Just 2 of you?

Generic Thai Person whom I like And Certainly See as My Social Equal: No, we go 5 people. I'm like it too much. Then we go shopping. It so funny. But today I must to go to shopping again for buy some book.

This is not even slightly exaggerated. Indeed it's nowhere near near the worst.

It should go without saying that there are Thais who can speak English better than that and some ( a minority) who can speak it quite well. Even the relatively rare elite who can speak it perfectly. More importantly, I certainly don't think less of the Thais who don't speak English well or put it down to any sort of intellectual inferiority per se. I understand and sympathize.

But "Thais are almost perfect in grammar"? "Many times better than native speakers"?

Absurd.

You misunderstood me. You made me laugh about that conversation you posted. You are right about it, it is truth and all is like you interpreted but that is opening much serious topic, general problem about Thai English teachers, competence.

I was talking about Thai teachers. Many of them are really good at grammar and sometimes they are better than native or non native speakers. But there is a catch. A friend of mine, Brad D. an Englishman a great guy and teacher, taught me about Thai teacher's grammar skills. he told me, they know pretty well HOW to construct grammar but they don't know how and when to use it.

Yes, about the theory-it is like many of us know: Thai English teachers are good at grammar. In theoretical way but don't know to use it.

So that is why students even with good vocabulary, even good pronunciation in Thailand, will not have a good English.

But that your "Generic Thai Person" is FAR AWAY from some 80-90 of Thai students and advanced.

Sad but truth and it could open another topic.

I will remind you OBEC found that 88% of Thai teachers failed in test about subjects they teach!!!

What else do we need to see how bad is situation with their competence?

There were not data about subject English and i am afraid it is far more so no one dare to publish.

[stepenwolf1958]

quote: Well known thing for any one in Thailand who is, one way or another about teaching is that Thais are almost PERFECT in grammar (many times better than native speakers)

OK, What's the punchline?

As i answered to Joe(SteeleJoe),

Thai English teachers are good at grammar(sometimes better than foreigners) but in THEORETICAL way. They know to construct grammar, but they don't know when and how to use it.

Majority. So it is useless.

[SteeleJoe]

Many (Thai teachers of English) are really good at grammar and sometimes they are better than native or non native speakers.

Is quite different from:

Thais are almost PERFECT in grammar (many times better than native speakers)

EDIT TO ADD: Oh, I just realized we've probably had a bit of linguistic mix-up of our own: when you say "many times better than native speakers", maybe you mean "in many cases, better than native speakers"? Whereas I (and perhaps other native speakers) thought you meant "times" as in mulitply (ie they weren't just better but far better).

Nonetheless, and with all due respect, I largely disagree with you on this thread. And you overstated a great deal in the original quote.

Edited April 6, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[jdinasia]

Note --- this is a personal opinion --- but the opinion of someone that does hiring but not the teaching.

If you cannot use English to fill out a lesson plan, if you cannot construct a sentence that is grammatically correct every time, if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job. If you are a true native speaker but your accent is so thick that you cannot be understood by an alert native speaker from somewhere else, then you don't get a job.

We do employ non-native speakers, IF they are skilled in all 4 skills at around an IELTS 7.0 or better in all bands and have the ability to speak clearly without an excessive accent getting in the way. My absolute best grammar teacher in any of our programs is Thai. She studied for her BA and MA in Sydney and speaks English with a hint of Thai accent mixed with a large amount of an Australian accent. She is absolutely awesome and can explain grammar better than any other teacher I have met. She is not paid less than any of the native speakers. Face it, if you can't write a sentence correctly then you aren't speaking correctly either. In one of our specialty programs we end up spending months correcting the broken English patterns that some Thais learn from non-native speakers.

Well known thing for any one in Thailand who is, one way or another about teaching is that Thais are almost PERFECT in grammar (many times better than native speakers) but according to that fact, let me ask you JD WHERE is Thailand nowadays about proficiency about English? Thanks to WHO? Those Thai teachers that you are talking about and native speakers but backpackers? Or you will say thanks to employing non native speakers?

Next, how on Earth and Haven you can hire teachers as you are not able to recognize, define and understand WHAT makes ones to be a good teacher? And i bet that Thai girl teacher is awesome. Meaning?

Sorry, but this would be a great example of why, for the most part, I do not hire non-native speakers. It is simply too hard to understand grammatically broken English. To address the innuendo with the roll-eyes .gif --- go back and read what was written.

She is absolutely awesome and can explain grammar better than any other teacher I have met.

[isanbirder]

Note --- this is a personal opinion --- but the opinion of someone that does hiring but not the teaching.

If you cannot use English to fill out a lesson plan, if you cannot construct a sentence that is grammatically correct every time, if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job. If you are a true native speaker but your accent is so thick that you cannot be understood by an alert native speaker from somewhere else, then you don't get a job.

We do employ non-native speakers, IF they are skilled in all 4 skills at around an IELTS 7.0 or better in all bands and have the ability to speak clearly without an excessive accent getting in the way. My absolute best grammar teacher in any of our programs is Thai. She studied for her BA and MA in Sydney and speaks English with a hint of Thai accent mixed with a large amount of an Australian accent. She is absolutely awesome and can explain grammar better than any other teacher I have met. She is not paid less than any of the native speakers. Face it, if you can't write a sentence correctly then you aren't speaking correctly either. In one of our specialty programs we end up spending months correcting the broken English patterns that some Thais learn from non-native speakers.

Well known thing for any one in Thailand who is, one way or another about teaching is that Thais are almost PERFECT in grammar (many times better than native speakers) but according to that fact, let me ask you JD WHERE is Thailand nowadays about proficiency about English? Thanks to WHO? Those Thai teachers that you are talking about and native speakers but backpackers? Or you will say thanks to employing non native speakers?

Next, how on Earth and Haven you can hire teachers as you are not able to recognize, define and understand WHAT makes ones to be a good teacher? And i bet that Thai girl teacher is awesome. Meaning?

Sorry, but this would be a great example of why, for the most part, I do not hire non-native speakers. It is simply too hard to understand grammatically broken English. To address the innuendo with the roll-eyes .gif --- go back and read what was written.

She is absolutely awesome and can explain grammar better than any other teacher I have met.

Your main post quoted above is absolutely spot on, jdinasia. Stepenwolf is, I imagine, not a native speaker, so I overlook his incomprehensibility.

He said Thais are perfect in grammar; I hope he was being sarcastic. I have had Thais, university teachers, question my grammar; they were not left long in doubt about who was right and who was wrong.

Edited April 6, 2011 by isanbirder

[stepenwolf1958]

Many (Thai teachers of English) are really good at grammar and sometimes they are better than native or non native speakers.

Is quite different from:

Thais are almost PERFECT in grammar (many times better than native speakers)

EDIT TO ADD: Oh, I just realized we've probably had a bit of linguistic mix-up of our own: when you say "many times better than native speakers", maybe you mean "in many cases, better than native speakers"? Whereas I (and perhaps other native speakers) thought you meant "times" as in mulitply (ie they weren't just better but far better).

Nonetheless, and with all due respect, I largely disagree with you on this thread. And you overstated a great deal in the original quote.

Yes it IS quite different and i apology, sincerely because i was in speed and didn't want to control myself much about mistakes i made or confused you but later i explained.

[stepenwolf1958]

Your main post quoted above is absolutely spot on, jdinasia. Stepenwolf is, I imagine, not a native speaker, so I overlook his incomprehensibility.

He said Thais are perfect in grammar; I hope he was being sarcastic. I have had Thais, university teachers, question my grammar; they were not left long in doubt about who was right and who was wrong.

Sure i was sarcastic as Thai teachers all the time will put that on your nose as their QUALITY. Later i explained they KNOW to construct all about grammar but don't know when to use and how to use. That was pointed to me as a catch from a friend of mine B.D. who had a NOSE for them all.

Thanks for your understanding about my mistakes i made here, to overlook my incomprehensibility. I simply didn't feel any need to pay attention much about it as i was sure my point will be understood as it was.

However, the facts are facts and anything we talk here, will NOT change anything.

[Lite Beer]

Inflammatory posts deleted. Along with replies.

[bifftastic]

I understand that if you have an accent which is difficult for your prospective Thai employers to understand, that you would find it difficult to gain employment irrespective of your birthplace. What I believe, the point of using the term 'native speaker' is, is that a native speaker should be able to form sentences correctly in the language they are teaching. Otherwise you will be passing on incorrect language skills to your students.

I don't doubt, Steppenwolf, anything you say regarding your experiences. It's just a little surprising that you focus on accents as opposed to things like grammar and word order in sentences, which native speakers should be able to teach correctly.

I think many posters here, who are native speakers of English, but may not be involved in the teaching profession, are often surprised that people who can not form English sentences correctly, are employed as English teachers.

It may well be the case that this goes un-noticed by the employer because the person has a nice shirt and tie and looks the part, but it's still surprising to some, myself included.

I agree with all your comments about English and English teachers. That being said, in some areas of Isaan, there are so few white faces (it counts!) and so few available teachers that some schools will take anyone that shows up and dresses properly regardless of ability.

Really? Well, I suppose they might accidentally get someone who can at least form a sentence! Shame I haven't got a degree, I'd get you to get me a job!

[jdinasia]

I understand that if you have an accent which is difficult for your prospective Thai employers to understand, that you would find it difficult to gain employment irrespective of your birthplace. What I believe, the point of using the term 'native speaker' is, is that a native speaker should be able to form sentences correctly in the language they are teaching. Otherwise you will be passing on incorrect language skills to your students.

I don't doubt, Steppenwolf, anything you say regarding your experiences. It's just a little surprising that you focus on accents as opposed to things like grammar and word order in sentences, which native speakers should be able to teach correctly.

I think many posters here, who are native speakers of English, but may not be involved in the teaching profession, are often surprised that people who can not form English sentences correctly, are employed as English teachers.

It may well be the case that this goes un-noticed by the employer because the person has a nice shirt and tie and looks the part, but it's still surprising to some, myself included.

I agree with all your comments about English and English teachers. That being said, in some areas of Isaan, there are so few white faces (it counts!) and so few available teachers that some schools will take anyone that shows up and dresses properly regardless of ability.

Really? Well, I suppose they might accidentally get someone who can at least form a sentence! Shame I haven't got a degree, I'd get you to get me a job!

I don't get people jobs. I do however, hire for my organization as well as send out some referrals (for which I do not get paid at all) to schools that contact me looking for people. I do this as a professional courtesy.

Your lack of degree in Isaan is probably less of a problem than you would think if you are presentable and can create and follow a decent lesson plan. All of my current contacts in Isaan at the moment do require a degree except for one about 60km outside of KK and I think they have all the teachers they need lined up for next term. My colleagues at some schools know that I get 10-20 walk-in applicants a week where they get almost none. Being the kind man that I am ... I try and help them when I can. I thought about starting up an agency for awhile, but being the middle-man usually leaves everyone unhappy.

[bifftastic]

Thanks for that

I'm a long long way off actually looking for work, and when I do, it probably won't be in Isaan. However, it's good to know that there are decent people out there working professionally in the field

I know what you mean about the agency/middle man thing, I was considering doing something similar here in the UK (in a completely different industry mind you) and no-one likes a middle-man!

[AjarnNorth]

Note --- this is a personal opinion --- but the opinion of someone that does hiring but not the teaching.

If you cannot use English to fill out a lesson plan, if you cannot construct a sentence that is grammatically correct every time, if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job. If you are a true native speaker but your accent is so thick that you cannot be understood by an alert native speaker from somewhere else, then you don't get a job.

We do employ non-native speakers, IF they are skilled in all 4 skills at around an IELTS 7.0 or better in all bands and have the ability to speak clearly without an excessive accent getting in the way. My absolute best grammar teacher in any of our programs is Thai. She studied for her BA and MA in Sydney and speaks English with a hint of Thai accent mixed with a large amount of an Australian accent. She is absolutely awesome and can explain grammar better than any other teacher I have met. She is not paid less than any of the native speakers. Face it, if you can't write a sentence correctly then you aren't speaking correctly either. In one of our specialty programs we end up spending months correcting the broken English patterns that some Thais learn from non-native speakers.

jdinasia,

I would like to preface the following by stating that I am not at all trying to be argumentative. I almost never chime in on forums (as one can see from my number of posts), because it seems to me a majority of folks present are just looking for a fight.

I'm an English teacher in Isaan and I have thoughts about this thread which I will post below, but I have a question about your statement: "... if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job."

Are you referring to use of future perfect?

"By this time next year, my daughter will have graduated from high school."

Something along those lines?

Maybe just semantics here - again, not looking for argument - just curious as to what you meant as I found myself, as a bit of a grammar interested human being, wondering when one would use the present perfect to talk about something in the future and then thinking, "Oh, s**t, why don't I know the answer to this? And might it mean me not getting a job someday?" Which would be silly, but still, I am curious.

Love of language question - because I suspect you may have an answer I have been unable to tap from my cerebellum right off the bat - what I am overlooking? What would be an example of using the present perfect to talk about something in the future?

[AjarnNorth]

I'm an English teacher is Isaan. I taught high school in my home country before coming here and was qualified and licensed to do so. I taught in Taiwan for a year (kindergarten in the mornings, university in the evenings), Bangkok for six years (one of the three letter private language schools), Chonburi for another three (another branch of the Bangkok gig), three years at an upcountry gov. uni, and am now beginning my second year as a teacher at an EP program in a gov. high school in Isaan.

Over the years, I have worked with native speakers with PhD s who could not teach their way out of a paper bag. I have worked with Filipinos who were (and are) amazing teachers of English. I have also worked with Scandinavians for whom English is a second language who were amazing ESL teachers. And, yes, I have also worked with Thai teachers who are perfectly capable and would be a good ESL hire anywhere. Yada, yada, and so on...

What's the target learner group? What are the student's needs and can the teacher in question cater to those needs?

My wife - who is Thai and whose English is not close to perfect but pretty dam_n good - could have taught my Taiwanese kindergarten classes as well as I did.

What is this? It is a book. How are you? I'm fine thank you, and you?

Of course, she would need help in developing plans that would get her students from point A to point B, but the fact that she is not a native speaker and makes a lot of grammatical mistakes when it comes to more difficult grammar, would not in any way (for sake of argument, because she is not a teacher and does not aspire to be so) stand in the way of her being a teacher at such a level.

Could she break down the subtle difference between present perfect and preset perfect continuous and explain when both are OK and when one is just not applicable? No, she couldn't.

Again, what's the target learner group? What are the student's needs and can the teacher in question cater to those needs?

Three of the four English teachers at my EP last year were native speakers. One was from the Philippines. She was as capable (and as deserving of same pay!) as anyone else. Our math and science teachers are all from the Philippines. Any one of them - who, by the way, are all very qualified and excellent subject teachers - could be a successful ESL teacher because they all speak excellent English and have a pretty good grounding in grammar rules and etc. Would they need some help in coming up with lesson plans and ways in which to present grammar to young learners that are understandable and engaging and productive to an ESL environment? Sure. But that goes the same for native speakers who don't have experience.

The OP, despite his difficulties with grammar at the high end, might make an excellent ESL teacher for beginning learners but may not be a good hire for students who need more.

But the argument that lays it all down to native vs. non-native, without any consideration as to target learners, their needs, and the teacher's ability to reach that target in a way that is engaging and productive, is simplistic and, well, bullcrap.

As a bit of an aside, I can't tell you how many ESL teachers I have met over the years who state that accent and word order is what it's all about and that there is no need for the ability to clearly explain grammar... pasive voice vs. active and why... present perfect vs. present perfect con and why... first, second, and third conditionals and why... My general feeling is that it comes down to some sort of laziness.

All for now.

[jdinasia]

Note --- this is a personal opinion --- but the opinion of someone that does hiring but not the teaching.

If you cannot use English to fill out a lesson plan, if you cannot construct a sentence that is grammatically correct every time, if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job. If you are a true native speaker but your accent is so thick that you cannot be understood by an alert native speaker from somewhere else, then you don't get a job.

We do employ non-native speakers, IF they are skilled in all 4 skills at around an IELTS 7.0 or better in all bands and have the ability to speak clearly without an excessive accent getting in the way. My absolute best grammar teacher in any of our programs is Thai. She studied for her BA and MA in Sydney and speaks English with a hint of Thai accent mixed with a large amount of an Australian accent. She is absolutely awesome and can explain grammar better than any other teacher I have met. She is not paid less than any of the native speakers. Face it, if you can't write a sentence correctly then you aren't speaking correctly either. In one of our specialty programs we end up spending months correcting the broken English patterns that some Thais learn from non-native speakers.

jdinasia,

I would like to preface the following by stating that I am not at all trying to be argumentative. I almost never chime in on forums (as one can see from my number of posts), because it seems to me a majority of folks present are just looking for a fight.

I'm an English teacher in Isaan and I have thoughts about this thread which I will post below, but I have a question about your statement: "... if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job."

Are you referring to use of future perfect?

"By this time next year, my daughter will have graduated from high school."

Something along those lines?

Maybe just semantics here - again, not looking for argument - just curious as to what you meant as I found myself, as a bit of a grammar interested human being, wondering when one would use the present perfect to talk about something in the future and then thinking, "Oh, s**t, why don't I know the answer to this? And might it mean me not getting a job someday?" Which would be silly, but still, I am curious.

Love of language question - because I suspect you may have an answer I have been unable to tap from my cerebellum right off the bat - what I am overlooking? What would be an example of using the present perfect to talk about something in the future?

yes you caught me in an error. Glad I am not a teacher present continuous for future events

Edited April 7, 2011 by jdinasia

[AjarnNorth]

Note --- this is a personal opinion --- but the opinion of someone that does hiring but not the teaching.

If you cannot use English to fill out a lesson plan, if you cannot construct a sentence that is grammatically correct every time, if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job. If you are a true native speaker but your accent is so thick that you cannot be understood by an alert native speaker from somewhere else, then you don't get a job.

We do employ non-native speakers, IF they are skilled in all 4 skills at around an IELTS 7.0 or better in all bands and have the ability to speak clearly without an excessive accent getting in the way. My absolute best grammar teacher in any of our programs is Thai. She studied for her BA and MA in Sydney and speaks English with a hint of Thai accent mixed with a large amount of an Australian accent. She is absolutely awesome and can explain grammar better than any other teacher I have met. She is not paid less than any of the native speakers. Face it, if you can't write a sentence correctly then you aren't speaking correctly either. In one of our specialty programs we end up spending months correcting the broken English patterns that some Thais learn from non-native speakers.

jdinasia,

I would like to preface the following by stating that I am not at all trying to be argumentative. I almost never chime in on forums (as one can see from my number of posts), because it seems to me a majority of folks present are just looking for a fight.

I'm an English teacher in Isaan and I have thoughts about this thread which I will post below, but I have a question about your statement: "... if you cannot explain quickly and understandably why a student is not wrong to use present perfect tense to talk about something in the future, then you don't get a job."

Are you referring to use of future perfect?

"By this time next year, my daughter will have graduated from high school."

Something along those lines?

Maybe just semantics here - again, not looking for argument - just curious as to what you meant as I found myself, as a bit of a grammar interested human being, wondering when one would use the present perfect to talk about something in the future and then thinking, "Oh, s**t, why don't I know the answer to this? And might it mean me not getting a job someday?" Which would be silly, but still, I am curious.

Love of language question - because I suspect you may have an answer I have been unable to tap from my cerebellum right off the bat - what I am overlooking? What would be an example of using the present perfect to talk about something in the future?

Is going

Oh, uh.. OK. But that's not present perfect at all. That is present continuous OR present progressive (depending on grammar book you use). So if i lost a job based on that question, well...

[AjarnNorth]

OK. Gotcha. No worries. We all make mistakes.

But as a person who (as you state you are) may be in a position of power to say yay or nay to someone looking for a job teaching ESL, you may want to be a little less rigid in your above stated requirements.

I couldn't have answered that question (even if phrased correctly) when I applied for my first ESL position. And I studied English Lit with an Ed minor.

There is a lot more to being a good teacher than that. Someone with a good head on their shoulders and a good command of the language can easily stay a few steps ahead of their students and be ready to asner such questions, even if they might get stumped in an interview.

Thanks for the response.

[jdinasia]

Oh, uh.. OK. But that's not present perfect at all. That is present continuous OR present progressive (depending on grammar book you use). So if i lost a job based on that question, well...

Look up ^^ I am for some strange reason having difficulty with this post. I admitted my error with the explanation but only part went through

I then crafted a response to your next post that also died in transmission I am not sure what time I wrote the post you responded to but I doubt I was functioning at peak performance at the time

I'll try again.

Perhaps with better results.

I hire for a specialty company that only deals with adults. I acknowledge there are other skills needed for teaching younger students. Most of our adults come to us at about IELTS 5.5 and stay with us for 6 months before going overseas for work, study, etc

I would say that your analysis of the OP and mine would be far different just based upon the first post. I don't care what age range you are working with, the teacher's English usage should still be excellent (perfection is not required, but excellence is!) I feel this is particularly important for conversation teachers. Accents are a different issue! I like accents if the teacher is proficient in using the language AND the accent doesn't get in the way of understanding!

I also found what you wrote about non-native speakers quite interesting as you never mentioned any that didn't meet your personal criteria, nor mention the ratio of those you have met/worked with that were at least 'good enough' to those that just couldn't cut the mustard! I know some excellent English teachers from non-native speaking countries, but I have met far more that I would never hire.

I'll never argue that being a native speaker means you are a good or better teacher. I think I have proven anecdotally already. My best is Thai (at least for grammar, but she is equal to both of my native speakers that teach academic writing.)

Accents? As long as it is clear, it doesn't much matter to me! Broken grammar in speaking does matter to me, as does writing ability.

When I do a long interview with a prospective employee, I do a one paragraph writing test , and ask them to fill out a lesson plan in whatever format they desire, and if both of those are good then I will schedule a classroom demonstration. You can be sure that they didn't get to the long interview if their application and CV were not filled out and well done They don't get the demonstration class unless the writing and lesson plan were excellent.

[jdinasia]

Note --- it was 0100 when I wrote the post you responded to ... I certainly made a mistake in it! Readily admitted.

[AjarnNorth]

Note --- it was 0100 when I wrote the post you responded to ... I certainly made a mistake in it! Readily admitted.

Noted. And you are correct in that I had not seen your first of those two posts. Sorry, "My bad," as the kids say.. or used to...

My first posting was directly to you, the second was a general response to the thread.

Nothing I really disagree with in your latest post that I am responding to now.

Of course I have worked with non-native speakers who do not cut the mustard, as you say.

But you also say, "I know some excellent English teachers from non-native speaking countries, but I have met far more that I would never hire."

I could say the same about native speakers.

Yes, an ESL teacher (native speaker or non) should be able to write a decent one paragraph essay... Absolutely.

I still maintain that you (or I or anyone in a position to make a hire) might come across an applicant who has an excellent command of the language, maybe even a lit major.. a student of the classics... a reader of Homer and Shakespeare and Austen and Melville and (fill in the rest here)... yet he or she may not be able at the point of interview to adequately answer specific questions of grammar and may not even be able to adequately design a good lesson plan. Bad hire? No, I don't think so. Knowing English and knowing it in a way that one can explain it, create a lesson around it, break down the differences between this and that structure... these are different things, the later of which comes with experience and, in a perfect world, a fair share of support and professional development. Good schools should have enough support to be able to take on qualified folks who have a good command and are willing to learn and to ask and to develop themselves.

This is, after all, Thailand, not Cambridge.

Having said that., someone equally qualified could, for any number of reasons, be a bad hire.

But again, the second of my first two posts was not to you but to the thread in a general sense.

I'm all for high standards and if you are hiring for a situation in which your prospective hire needs to be an experienced ESL teacher and ready to rock from class one, well, no argument there at all. That's what is needed, that's what you look for.

I think we're pretty much in agreement all around.

Cheers.

[jdinasia]

I think we are pretty much in agreement as well. (other than possibly about the OP)

I have hired new fresh out of the TEFL factories youngish teachers for projects we have taken on contract for other organizations, but what I need and what I hire are better than average folks. I will not refer someone out to schools that contact me if they don't have the basics, but they know (the schools) that I am just pre-screening for them and not making a personal recommendation unless I actually tell them "I would hire this teacher if I had a position open for them!"

I did refer 3 Mexican guys I met to a school outside of BKK, they were all fluent and quite interesting. I never did follow up to see if they got the job! They seemed like they would be a good risk when so many others that month didn't.

I also agree that there are scads of native-speakers that don't have what it takes to teach. I CAN teach but my personality isn't a good match for teaching anyone but adults. When teaching Thai kids I end up being just like the male Thai teachers! Far too authoritarian etc .... so I don't do it

[Gary A]

Teaching is like any other job. Some people, regardless of their qualifications are very good and some highly educated people are poor teachers.

I was good friends with two teachers in Bangkok. One was a highly educated former university professor and the other was a down on his luck unemployed oil field worker. The non-qualified teacher was well liked by his students and they learned well. The highly qualified teacher kept his classes so confused that they learned very little.

I have a retired Thai friend who is not a qualified teacher. He teaches English in private classes. He is a better teacher than most native English speaking teachers.

As for myself, I would make a VERY poor teacher. I have no patience.