Thai Private Eye Lifts Curtain On Cheating Spouses

[LingLek]

its the same every where......humans are not meant to be monogamous...tell me another mammal that is... some of us try but its always a test

'meant', supaprik? does that mean you are a god-botherer as well? (meaning, you see--this is if you're a bit thick--presupposes intention.) i wonder if you'd like to refine that claim a little in other ways too. 'humans', or just 'men', are not meant (by god or the force) to be monogamous? golly, what a lot to unpack.

[Thaddeus]

its the same every where......humans are not meant to be monogamous...tell me another mammal that is... some of us try but its always a test

'meant', supaprik? does that mean you are a god-botherer as well? (meaning, you see--this is if you're a bit thick--presupposes intention.) i wonder if you'd like to refine that claim a little in other ways too. 'humans', or just 'men', are not meant (by god or the force) to be monogamous? golly, what a lot to unpack.

Buried deep down inside that post there may have been a point in it, however, life is too short for me to try and work out what it was.

[swillowbee]

....

I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think you have written the following when compared to societies with superior cultural values:

Thais abandon their children.

Thais are greedy.

Thais are dishonest.

Thais are selfish.

Thais are duplicitous.

Thais are cowards.

Thais are corrupt.

Thais are hypocrites.

Thais are not spiritual.

Thais exploit the weak.

And the list goes on and on. so you say.

Before I write an opinion of your mindset I want to make sure I have the facts.

Same as the rest of us...

SC

... I hope you'll agree that subjective pursuits are interpretive ... cultural values are subjective ... items in the list above all vary in measure.

... I do not accept where you might be going, that the above characterizations are exaggerated as either an "all in", or "all out" choice ... not merely because it is a Cornelian choice, but simply because I am not the zealot missionary you might imagine.

... obviously, mark45y, not all Thais abandon all of their children all of the time ... but, I've reasonable evidence (personal, and other) that a remarkable number do.

... okay ... so ... you want to know if I believe that Thais are as depicted above? ... yes, there are those who are, and also those who are not ... you want a number? ... how many? ... I have no number for you.

... absent the numbers, a dispassionate empirical assay of Thailand's cultural values is impossible ... so, I am left to make an interpretive judgement ... to view the end product of what Thais have constructed as their society and interpolate from it a conclusion about the people that create, maintain, and live within that society.

... so ... my thesis ... societies are a product of the people who live within them ... the institutions that define those societies are reflective of the people within that society.

... if you believe a nexus exists that thesis, then making interpretive judgements about institutionalized Thai values and behaviors is reasonable ... thus, "cultural values" ... values shared by the preponderance of the society.

... I've dealt with my fair share of Thai institutions, and make an interpretive judgement about how they've gotten to be what they are ... let's try, say, the education system that MikeHunt02 concedes is poor ... did it get there because the hundreds of thousands of Thai people who create it and run it are:

(i) more corrupt, or less?

(ii) more greedy, or less?

(iii) more exploitative, or less?

... now, do the same with the state of Thai child welfare, and you can better understand my views on why child welfare is where it is.

... you follow the rationale, I'm sure ... you might not agree with the basis of my rationale (my thesis, above), but you might find reasonable the conclusions drawn from it.

... this thread continues to circle back to comparatives ... benchmarking Thai cultural values against other cultural values is irrelevant ... the consequences of Thai institutions are apparent in absolute terms ...we can apply that to any number of Thai institutions - education, justice, philanthropy, commercial ethics, social equity, niceness (yes, even niceness can be counted ... a freebie), whatever.

... when I view the state of Thai child welfare and the Thai institutions (both formal and informal) charged with the responsibility for protecting them, I see that they fail to prevent large numbers of children from suffering ... I then connect the dots to understand why.

... that's what I've got, mark45y.

... as you, I really want to fit seamlessly an understanding of the inherent, self-evident rights of humans within the complexity of Thai cultural values with a 99% confidence factor ... but, that is a bridge too far... any defense of superior Thai cultural values is similarly hobbled ... so, we are left to interpretive judgements ... and I'll go with what I got, over what you got.

... (so, where do you find a really good Enlightenment Era social philosopher of Natural Law when you really need one, eh?)

... the prosecution rests.

... rebuttals?

... if can you offer an explanation for how the quality of a society's cultural values are NOT reasonably inferable from the state of a society's institutions, I'd like to hear it ... and "tis' not, tis' not" don't cut it, amigo ... maybe SteeleJoe, or StreetCowboy will pitch in.

Edited April 12, 2011 by swillowbee

[swillowbee]

I am merely pointing out that the same situation occurs frequently in all countries.

In Thailand the men leave by choice, in the west men are forced out of their homes.

Uhhmmm...no, leaving by choice and being forced out is not the same. For one thing, one can't be nlamed for being forced but leaving by choice?

The number of men I meet from the west who are first forced out of the family home, refused contact, fleeced of their worldly goods, then denounced as abandoning their children is truly amazing.

Well, if it's as many as you imply, that is amazing. I'm not aware that the incidence is anywhere near as high in the whole US as you would like us to believe, so it's extraordinary that you'd meet a large number here. Especially since in over 2 decades, I don't think I've met any.

At least in Thailand families take care of their own, if both a child's parents abandon it (very rare) there are always grandparents, siblings, cousins to step in. Often unrelated villagers will take a child in.

Are you sure it's very rare? What source do you base that on? (And you don't think that if you and I -- two random guys -- both have an abandoned child in our care that maybe it's not very rare?)

Are you suggesting that in the US families don't typically step in?

Better to look after a child for love or family duty (Thailand), than to look after a child for payment (the west)

So in Thailand it's always about love or family duty? In the west it's about money?

And what's with this Thailand vs "West" thing anyway?

EDITED for format

... MikeHunt02, you might find useful the hard, cold, adult business facts ... here are the numbers, excerpted from a report published by the Thailand Development Research Institute on 2011-03-17:

"There are around 2.3 million households in which children are being raised by grandparents ... average age of 65 ... The number is five times larger than the figure 23 years ago ... Six in ten Thai children are living with parents, a figure that has decreased by around 1.4 per cent each year."

... I accept that some percentage of these are a consequence of sad economic realities, but I also know a remarkable percentage are not.

... these sorts of figures are moving the sociological center of gravity of an entire nation ... and the TDRI intel doesn't cite children raised in Thai institutions ... excluding them, at the current trend, by 2018 fully 50% of all children born in Thailand will be raised by people other than their parents ... if you include institutionalized children, that occurs sooner ... nice, eh?

... be honest, MikeHunt02, did you have any idea the numbers were this big?

... you challenged earlier for me to name a country where this is not happening ... I really think I've nothing to validate ... so, how about you cite countries where it IS happening at this rate and in these percentages? ... I'll wager that your list will likely be confined to countries infected by inferior cultural values.

... now ... you can try to refute the TDRI report, claiming they are corrupt and incompetent ... perhaps (they are Thai), but probably not.

... or, maybe you might now claim young Thai children raised by 65-year old illiterate grandparents who believe in ghosts, do not value education and raised fine upstanding children of their own who abandon their own children are not so bad off ... another high hanging inside fast ball destined for the fence.

... and think about a hard reality I learned from the behavorial psychologists who helped me with my kids: ... regardless how hard I try to love these kids back to emotional health, they will always bear a deep, painful wound ... regardless of the self-confidence and self-value I might help them find, they will always wonder:

"Was I not good enough? Why did my mother not want me? If she really loved me, why did she not come find me? For her to do something so horrible as this, she must have hated me a lot. What did I do? I must have been a horrible child. I am a horrible person."

... that wound is either there, or it is coming and there is no avoiding it ... nothing heals that wound but a lifetime of loving them into submission, and nothing avoids that wound but a bonded parent ... and men, that train left long ago for our kids, and for millions of Thai children.

... (as an aside, if either of you or your foster children are dealing with these issues, I found an absolute pearl of a behavioral psychologist here ... top drawer and dedicated ... specializes in child behavior ... Thai woman, but gets western values ... THB 1,000/hour ... undergrad in Thailand, graduate in the US, clinical practice in the US ... helped with the cross-cultural issues as well ... message me if you would like her contact coordinates).

You surly must think you are the savior of your clan bringing all of your superior cultural values to bear on your wife and family.

... not at all ... these kids are raised as Thais, not perfect images of the western blue-bloods you have wrongfully synthesized to fulfill your mistaken image of me - a western missionary zealot!

... they are Buddhist, and will remain so ... I encourage that they are faithful to their Buddhist beliefs ... the youngest, of Mon lineage, is taught to be proud of his roots, and to never allow anyone to ever claim advantage over him because of his dark skin and "impure" heredity (a widespread cultural value by which he has already been victimized - he is 6 years sold ... nice, huh?) ... lying is unacceptable in our family ... they must accept personal responsibility for their actions ... they must apologise for and correct their misdeeds ... respect is expected, but not offered on the basis of unearned, entitled privilege ... judge people by what is in their heads and hearts, not by their family name, the size of their bank account, or their physical appearance ... don't gossip ... don't be lazy ... be charitable to people less fortunate that you, even if they are not family ... make your bed ... brush your teeth ... education is important ... put the toilet seat up when you pee, and for God's sake flush!

... pretty incidious what I am creating here ... anything particularly unique to "my superior culture" you see there? ... but, that is just a partial list ... you should see the rest!

... read John Locke and other social and political philosophers of the Enlightenment Era ... universal values that know no race, creed, or color ... natural law ... maybe you've heard of it ... just basic human decency

That is what I was referring to before.

Maybe you are correct but I doubt that most Thais would agree with your assessment of their cowardly, dishonest, duplicitous, selfish and exploitive behavior. Matter of fact you paint a pretty grim portrait of the Thai people.

... I have often found what people DO far more indicative of their values than what people think ... especially where concealing behavior and truth is common

I could never live in a country that had values like you describe let along raise children there. I would be gone in a heartbeat.

... but, we are not impotent to change things, if even in small ways

I think, you think you have it figured out. Looked at inferior Thai values and compared them to your own and drawn the obvious conclusions.

... once again, you've got me there! ... read my reply addressed to you in the above post

Kind of reminds me of the British novels a hundred years ago. Who would take care of the dark people if we weren't there. Or the American thinking in the South before the Civil War.

... that's what you've got? ... THAT?! ... it's just plain offensive, and betrays a real lack of intellect ... keep that bullshit in the barn

America was an agricultural nation before 1900 and when industry modernized farming and jobs became available in the cities there was a major migration. Extended families no longer became the norm and smaller families became the rule. Children were not taken care of by grandparents but day care centers or became latchkey children.

I would hate to think that your opinions which can best be described as colonial were the norm of the posters on Thai Visa.

... that judgement is your privilege

I tried to find the TDRI report to read it but there are only a couple of paragraphs clipped and posted in newspapers. I tried to look up the researcher but there is no listing of a person by that name at the TDRI website. Maybe you can help. I am sure you read the whole report and not the brief news report in the Nations News.

... sorry, but I too could only excerpt pieces of the TDRI study from the media ... do you doubt the numbers?

... be honest, does it alarm you that 40% of all children in Thailand are now being raised by people other than their parents? ... and that figure will rise to 50% by 2018?

... is that a good thing? ... or, is that a bad thing?

... is that a consequence of Thai behavior? ... or, is it being perpetrated on the helpless Thai people by neo-colonials, as you allege I am

[mark45y]

I am merely pointing out that the same situation occurs frequently in all countries.

In Thailand the men leave by choice, in the west men are forced out of their homes.

Uhhmmm...no, leaving by choice and being forced out is not the same. For one thing, one can't be nlamed for being forced but leaving by choice?

The number of men I meet from the west who are first forced out of the family home, refused contact, fleeced of their worldly goods, then denounced as abandoning their children is truly amazing.

Well, if it's as many as you imply, that is amazing. I'm not aware that the incidence is anywhere near as high in the whole US as you would like us to believe, so it's extraordinary that you'd meet a large number here. Especially since in over 2 decades, I don't think I've met any.

At least in Thailand families take care of their own, if both a child's parents abandon it (very rare) there are always grandparents, siblings, cousins to step in. Often unrelated villagers will take a child in.

Are you sure it's very rare? What source do you base that on? (And you don't think that if you and I -- two random guys -- both have an abandoned child in our care that maybe it's not very rare?)

Are you suggesting that in the US families don't typically step in?

Better to look after a child for love or family duty (Thailand), than to look after a child for payment (the west)

So in Thailand it's always about love or family duty? In the west it's about money?

And what's with this Thailand vs "West" thing anyway?

EDITED for format

... MikeHunt02, you might find useful the hard, cold, adult business facts ... here are the numbers, excerpted from a report published by the Thailand Development Research Institute on 2011-03-17:

"There are around 2.3 million households in which children are being raised by grandparents ... average age of 65 ... The number is five times larger than the figure 23 years ago ... Six in ten Thai children are living with parents, a figure that has decreased by around 1.4 per cent each year."

... I accept that some percentage of these are a consequence of sad economic realities, but I also know a remarkable percentage are not.

... these sorts of figures are moving the sociological center of gravity of an entire nation ... and the TDRI intel doesn't cite children raised in Thai institutions ... excluding them, at the current trend, by 2018 fully 50% of all children born in Thailand will be raised by people other than their parents ... if you include institutionalized children, that occurs sooner ... nice, eh?

... be honest, MikeHunt02, did you have any idea the numbers were this big?

... you challenged earlier for me to name a country where this is not happening ... I really think I've nothing to validate ... so, how about you cite countries where it IS happening at this rate and in these percentages? ... I'll wager that your list will likely be confined to countries infected by inferior cultural values.

... now ... you can try to refute the TDRI report, claiming they are corrupt and incompetent ... perhaps (they are Thai), but probably not.

... or, maybe you might now claim young Thai children raised by 65-year old illiterate grandparents who believe in ghosts, do not value education and raised fine upstanding children of their own who abandon their own children are not so bad off ... another high hanging inside fast ball destined for the fence.

... and think about a hard reality I learned from the behavorial psychologists who helped me with my kids: ... regardless how hard I try to love these kids back to emotional health, they will always bear a deep, painful wound ... regardless of the self-confidence and self-value I might help them find, they will always wonder:

"Was I not good enough? Why did my mother not want me? If she really loved me, why did she not come find me? For her to do something so horrible as this, she must have hated me a lot. What did I do? I must have been a horrible child. I am a horrible person."

... that wound is either there, or it is coming and there is no avoiding it ... nothing heals that wound but a lifetime of loving them into submission, and nothing avoids that wound but a bonded parent ... and men, that train left long ago for our kids, and for millions of Thai children.

... (as an aside, if either of you or your foster children are dealing with these issues, I found an absolute pearl of a behavioral psychologist here ... top drawer and dedicated ... specializes in child behavior ... Thai woman, but gets western values ... THB 1,000/hour ... undergrad in Thailand, graduate in the US, clinical practice in the US ... helped with the cross-cultural issues as well ... message me if you would like her contact coordinates).

You surly must think you are the savior of your clan bringing all of your superior cultural values to bear on your wife and family.

... not at all ... these kids are raised as Thais, not perfect images of the western blue-bloods you have wrongfully synthesized to fulfill your mistaken image of me - a western missionary zealot!

... they are Buddhist, and will remain so ... I encourage that they are faithful to their Buddhist beliefs ... the youngest, of Mon lineage, is taught to be proud of his roots, and to never allow anyone to ever claim advantage over him because of his dark skin and "impure" heredity (a widespread cultural value by which he has already been victimized - he is 6 years sold ... nice, huh?) ... lying is unacceptable in our family ... they must accept personal responsibility for their actions ... they must apologise for and correct their misdeeds ... respect is expected, but not offered on the basis of unearned, entitled privilege ... judge people by what is in their heads and hearts, not by their family name, the size of their bank account, or their physical appearance ... don't gossip ... don't be lazy ... be charitable to people less fortunate that you, even if they are not family ... make your bed ... brush your teeth ... education is important ... put the toilet seat up when you pee, and for God's sake flush!

... pretty incidious what I am creating here ... anything particularly unique to "my superior culture" you see there? ... but, that is just a partial list ... you should see the rest!

... read John Locke and other social and political philosophers of the Enlightenment Era ... universal values that know no race, creed, or color ... natural law ... maybe you've heard of it ... just basic human decency

That is what I was referring to before.

Maybe you are correct but I doubt that most Thais would agree with your assessment of their cowardly, dishonest, duplicitous, selfish and exploitive behavior. Matter of fact you paint a pretty grim portrait of the Thai people.

... I have often found what people DO far more indicative of their values than what people think ... especially where concealing behavior and truth is common

I could never live in a country that had values like you describe let along raise children there. I would be gone in a heartbeat.

... but, we are not impotent to change things, if even in small ways

I think, you think you have it figured out. Looked at inferior Thai values and compared them to your own and drawn the obvious conclusions.

... once again, you've got me there! ... read my reply addressed to you in the above post

Kind of reminds me of the British novels a hundred years ago. Who would take care of the dark people if we weren't there. Or the American thinking in the South before the Civil War.

... that's what you've got? ... THAT?! ... it's just plain offensive, and betrays a real lack of intellect ... keep that bullshit in the barn

America was an agricultural nation before 1900 and when industry modernized farming and jobs became available in the cities there was a major migration. Extended families no longer became the norm and smaller families became the rule. Children were not taken care of by grandparents but day care centers or became latchkey children.

I would hate to think that your opinions which can best be described as colonial were the norm of the posters on Thai Visa.

... that judgement is your privilege

I tried to find the TDRI report to read it but there are only a couple of paragraphs clipped and posted in newspapers. I tried to look up the researcher but there is no listing of a person by that name at the TDRI website. Maybe you can help. I am sure you read the whole report and not the brief news report in the Nations News.

... sorry, but I too could only excerpt pieces of the TDRI study from the media ... do you doubt the numbers?

... be honest, does it alarm you that 40% of all children in Thailand are now being raised by people other than their parents? ... and that figure will rise to 50% by 2018?

... is that a good thing? ... or, is that a bad thing?

... is that a consequence of Thai behavior? ... or, is it being perpetrated on the helpless Thai people by neo-colonials, as you allege I am

A couple of housekeeping issues. Yes I doubt the numbers unless I can see the study. They make good headlines but not good science. One can't even find the guy who wrote the study. I imagine he had to leave the country.

Even before we disagree about any of the cultural values we have a more basic disagreement.

You said, “. but, we are not impotent to change things, if even in small ways.”

I am not an engineer. I am not a doctor.

My first degree was in cultural anthropology. My first scientific and academic training was to look at things and document those things. I simply have no interest in changing them. Over and over it was bored into my head to get value judgments out of my research and concentrate on the facts. After a while it sunk in. I am not here to change things I am here to live here as it is. I don't want to make it better or worse place I only ask to live here like it is. Margaret Meads famous study was a hoax because she couldn't get her self out of her findings. Even though it was exposed as a hoax years ago some colleges still teach it. Margaret was a highly trained anthropologist, who are you to say you can look at Thai society with an objective eye, hardly possible. If you read recent Thai studies on child rearing they are afraid of the children loosing traditional Thai values. That is the major worry, loosing Thai values. You are really light years apart in your thinking from Thai sociologists. Thai sociologists are worried about Western values making inroads in modern Thai society. There are almost no psychologists in Thailand because educated Thai people see no need for them. You are just 180 degrees away from current Thai thinking on the issue.

When my children were conceived I made a decision to raise them in the US and Canada. At the time I considered those two countries the best place to raise children. They are now adults living in both the US and Canada. Educated, sane and with children of their own. I have also told them if they come to visit me not to bring their husbands or children with them. I have 4 daughters. Perhaps the above statement tells you how I really feel about Thailand or child rearing. Or maybe I just don't want them to see me dancing with women younger than themselves. I don't think I even really know.

You kind of remind me of my wives who were always trying to change things for the better. Mostly they were trying to change me. It didn't work. After the kids were grown I came back to Thailand.

Business interests aside I don't think the Brits who ran the colonies were trying to harm the natives nor do I think many of the American slaveholders were trying to harm the slaves. Given the cultural values of the time I don't see Thomas Jefferson being a harsh person, uncaring of the welfare of the people he owned. I think he probably thought he knew much more than they did and was acting in the best interests of all concerned.

I don't think you are a bad guy. I think you may even be in a majority here on Thai Visa. But in Thailand you represent a minuscule segment of popular thought. Thais are far more worried about the negative aspects of Western culture than the few positive aspects and most would tell you there are almost no positive aspects to Western culture.

Are you lighting one candle or pissing in the wind.

In general I would say that a Western person in Thailand is impotent to make any changes in Thai core values and moreover if he did change anything it would not be for the better.

I wish you luck but you are not going to have an easy time in Thailand. The deck is stacked against you and you are 100% confident that you are right and know a better way. Your writing shows almost a missionary zeal for truth and justice. I have no doubt that the Jesuits who tried to shape my young mind and mentioned the “Natural Law” a lot thought they were correct too.

Does it alarm me that 40% of Thai children are being raised by people other than their parents? If it is an accurate number and I seriously doubt it's accuracy, no it does not alarm me. Eskimos were 100% raised by people other than their parents and many communities in the South Seas raised the children communally with no problems at all. I imagine many parts of Europe people with money had nanny's and boarding schools raise children. Many people I grew up with had a wet nurse, nanny and later went to boarding school, rarely seeing their parents.

I am old enough to remember the traditional Thai Values that were the norm when I got here 40 years ago. The year I was born there were only 18 million people living in Thailand. Yes Thailand was a lot different then than now. It alarms me like it alarms most Thais that the country is loosing its Thai traditional values. There is now a vacuum and nothing coming in to replace the traditions.

You are suggesting replacing the traditions with Western ones. The lady who is the detective in the OP is also suggesting this. You are assuming that Western answers will work for Western problems in Thailand. Industrialization creates displacement of children. The Western answer is the dissolution of the extended family, anti depressants and feminists insisting on equal rights for women. The detectives come in, catch the guys and the divorce courts change laws to redistribute the wealth from the family to the divorced female.

In the West females used to stay married regardless of the behavior of the male. That changed. Marriages changed and divorce statistics changed. Did the children benefit from the liberated female?

Maybe yes maybe no but society changed.

To suggest that Western values are the answer to Thai problems is a complicated issue best left to Thais to solve. Here is where we disagree.

[oops]

Why does Admin. continually run these ridiculous stories? When do I ever see anything positive come to my e-mail account. Nothing but crap.

But it's not just Thai men who are tempted to stray.

Here's a positive one.....

Here is something positive for you....and just so you know....I love crap like this....because it is easy to see why the world is so (*(&*&^% up with so many opinions out there God just left the scene.

Now on a positive note......I have to say I cheated....Sorry but I am am sure that I made up for all those men out there that are happy with just one....And by the way....I am a born again christian......I just lost my birth certificate....

Now for the positive part of my story. My wife isn't a bar girl and far from it. ....she doesn't drink, doesn't smoke ..and doesn't come home much either....but I am confident that I am the only cheater....after finding the messages on my phone and several......That's not true .....and "No I wouldn't do that" .......I was always told never confess even if she walks in on you....

Well I confessed........( Sorry to all my real man friends) I pussied out and confessed...But I didn't CRY . She cried....I told her....* Don't you dare try to make me feel guilty * She told me she won't.... and she is sorry.....it's all her fault .

That's when I wanted to cry ....talk about a smooth talker....she was trying to get me to say *I am sorry* Wasn't happening....from experience I know once you say your sorrry then they blame you for everything.....( My man friends can appreciate this) never say your sorry because that is a sign of guilt.

Now my wife has shaved everything and wears very short silky dresses with those very sexy underware....( No not the G-string that the Russian women wear ) (THANK GOD) Some of those Russian women look like elephants with a rope stuck in there asss........Anyway getting back to my wife..now she does thing in the bedroom that only a hooker would know about.....Long and short of it is....I don't know if she was cheating on me.....if you judged her by the sex before I told you then.......( no she wasn't)......If you judged her by the sex after I admitted to having an affair....then she was a hooker in a bar for sure.

I spoke with her on the phone today and she asked if I like it....I told if every man felt like I do after ten years of marraige there would be no divorce

Edited April 12, 2011 by oops