Two Swedes Electrocuted In Krabi

[siamiam]

Here is another example of how the 'one hand rule' can save your life:

A shower in a bathtub with a rubber mat (this point not grounded in this example), live electricity at a control for the water heater, a water control knob happens to be grounded, (in this example). The person in the shower is adjusting the water knob and has one hand on it. Just before reaching up to adjust the heater control with the other hand, (which would have killed them), they remember the one hand rule. So, they let go of the grounded water knob and then reach up and touch the live heater control. They get enough of a shock to let them know there is a problem, but because they are not grounded to the floor, they are not killed.

(P.S. the one hand rule only works if no other part of your body is grounded)

Thaddeus, you little devil. WHAT do you think I am saying in the above quote? I'm afraid if you can't keep up, you will have to go to....

[siamiam]

I realize the increased dangers of a wet human coming into contact with a voltage differential over that of a dry human as this is the reason for the whole topic about electrical dangers in the shower. Water definitely increases the risk of electrocution in an unsafe environment but generally by direct contact with a primary conductor and not the water alone.

I don't know if the following is the right way to calculate the conductivity of water and thus how dangerous it would be in a given situation. What I came up with seems to say the same as in BB's post above. I would like to hear from people who might be at odds with these numbers. Set me straight if I am in error here. I used the standard current=voltage devided by resistance, same as you would for a more conventional conductor.

I took some Ohm readings for water and water based solutions. Weather it was tap water, or a 'shower water', (water, salt, and hand soap), that I was measuring, (in higher concentration than I would expect to find under shower conditions), the resistance figures point to a current flow in the liquid well below danger level, when applied to either 120v or 240v.

Here are my test figures. Tested: two inches of liquid in a glass bowl, test probes less than one inch apart for all readings. All figures have been rounded up.

Tap water resistance was 308 k ohms = current of .0004A (at 120v) .0008A (at 240v)

Shower Water (water, salt, soap) resistance was 125 k ohms = current of .001A (at 120v) .002A (at 240v)

Edited April 10, 2011 by siamiam

[Thaddeus]

Here is another example of how the 'one hand rule' can save your life:

A shower in a bathtub with a rubber mat (this point not grounded in this example), live electricity at a control for the water heater, a water control knob happens to be grounded, (in this example). The person in the shower is adjusting the water knob and has one hand on it. Just before reaching up to adjust the heater control with the other hand, (which would have killed them), they remember the one hand rule. So, they let go of the grounded water knob and then reach up and touch the live heater control. They get enough of a shock to let them know there is a problem, but because they are not grounded to the floor, they are not killed.

(P.S. the one hand rule only works if no other part of your body is grounded)

Thaddeus, you little devil. WHAT do you think I am saying in the above quote? I'm afraid if you can't keep up, you will have to go to....

That's odd, I didn't think that I needed your permission to be here.... and trust me one this one, I don't need to keep up with you, I posted that for clarification and reinforcement just in case others had skipped a bit.

But,the most pertinent part of my post was......

Here's a thought, if you want to talk about safety tips when living in or travelling through a foreign country, why don't you start a topic in that vein.

Relatives and friends of this unfortunate couple may be reading all this and thinking their deaths have been solely caused to create a chapter in Trip Advisor.

It's very insensitive.

[Sabre]

This is simply awful.

Something needs to be done.

The number of people I know about (both Thai and foreign) who have been killed by shoddy wiring and dangerous practices with electricity is just way too high.

It isn't rocket science ... and yet it seems nobody is learning anything at all from these tragedies.

[moe666]

Even with the best of grounding it is still abit dicey. In the states they require at least 2 points of grounding: 2 8 foot by 3/4 grounding rods or one rod and grounding to rebar in the foundation. In the classs I have taken grounding has been called an art rether than a science. Good luck and RIP to the victims.

[inmysights]

This is simply awful.

Something needs to be done.

The number of people I know about (both Thai and foreign) who have been killed by shoddy wiring and dangerous practices with electricity is just way too high.

It isn't rocket science ... and yet it seems nobody is learning anything at all from these tragedies.

When at the local wat attending to my husband's funeral rites, I became engaged in conversation with an extremely distraught couple farang/thai, whose 17 year old son was in the next 'room' and had passed through 'electrical failure', Flowers and his bike decked outside, many people attending. The lovely Thai mother'd told me she simply couldn't accept that her son's death was due to electrical fault as friends who'd dragged him from the shower room hadn't been 'shocked' also. They had had 3 phase electricity installed, as is the wont of many expats here, together with the trip switch. I tried to explain that was the reason the helpers hadn't received an electric charge too. She didn't appear convinced.

We had had many electric shocks at both an old rental and our new house. But just two phase which does indeed shock (my husband had received a shock whilst showering), we both received simultaneous shocks from a water heater and electric oven.

An American neighbour had recently been 'canvassing' our soi at that time, trying to enlist support for 3 phase. I pointed out that our house, designed on ecological principles, easy to spot, louvred windows as the brief to my architect was 'no aircon', and so why would I need 3 phase, used for factories, NOT domestic dwellings and sent him off with a flea in his ear. Stupid!

If we HAD HAD 3 phase we'd both have fried by now.

Most Thai 'electricians' are used to 1 or 2 phase, and even then it's advisable to plug anything in wearing rubber soled flip flops and gloves With stupid and completely unnecessarily installed 3 phase, you are literally taking your life in your hands.

Someone please explain to me just WHY they need 3 phase, unless it's simply showing off. 'Oh, you have two phase? We have 3!' Bye bye.

Edited April 10, 2011 by inmysights

[BuckarooBanzai]

This is simply awful.

Something needs to be done.

The number of people I know about (both Thai and foreign) who have been killed by shoddy wiring and dangerous practices with electricity is just way too high.

It isn't rocket science ... and yet it seems nobody is learning anything at all from these tragedies.

When at the local wat attending to my husband's funeral rites, I became engaged in conversation with an extremely distraught couple farang/thai, whose 17 year old son was in the next 'room' and had passed through 'electrical failure', Flowers and his bike decked outside, many people attending. The lovely Thai mother'd told me she simply couldn't accept that her son's death was due to electrical fault as friends who'd dragged him from the shower room hadn't been 'shocked' also. They had had 3 phase electricity installed, as is the wont of many expats here, together with the trip switch. I tried to explain that was the reason the helpers hadn't received an electric charge too. She didn't appear convinced.

We had had many electric shocks at both an old rental and our new house. But just two phase which does indeed shock (my husband had received a shock whilst showering), we both received simultaneous shocks from a water heater and electric oven.

An American neighbour had recently been 'canvassing' our soi at that time, trying to enlist support for 3 phase. I pointed out that our house, designed on ecological principles, easy to spot, louvred windows as the brief to my architect was 'no aircon', and so why would I need 3 phase, used for factories, NOT domestic dwellings and sent him off with a flea in his ear. Stupid!

If we HAD HAD 3 phase we'd both have fried by now.

Most Thai 'electricians' are used to 1 or 2 phase, and even then it's advisable to plug anything in wearing rubber soled flip flops and gloves With stupid and completely unnecessarily installed 3 phase, you are literally taking your life in your hands.

Someone please explain to me just WHY they need 3 phase, unless it's simply showing off. 'Oh, you have two phase? We have 3!' Bye bye.

I believe you are absolutely correct. You only need 3 phase when you have very high voltage requirements or amperage requirements. Air conditioning, water pumps, etc. do not require 3 phase in a residence.

I think people are trying to get 3 phase service into an area that does not have three phase by having other people pay for it. Others more knowledgeable than myself are welcome to correct me.

[siamiam]

Relatives and friends of this unfortunate couple may be reading all this and thinking their deaths have been solely caused to create a chapter in Trip Advisor.

It's very insensitive.

Not true. The majority of this entire thread, 8 pages long now, are posts of people trying to figure out why this happened, how to keep it from happening again while traveling, and how to keep it from happening in personal residences. I think the relatives and friends of the unfortunate couple would understand this, and that everyone here feels badly because of what happened to their loved ones.

[siamiam]

Even with the best of grounding it is still abit dicey. In the states they require at least 2 points of grounding: 2 8 foot by 3/4 grounding rods or one rod and grounding to rebar in the foundation. In the classs I have taken grounding has been called an art rether than a science. Good luck and RIP to the victims.

One summer, a long time ago, I worked on a fiber optic cable installation, where one of my tasks was installing earth grounds for the cable at each splice point on 'my' 200 mile section of the route. To be sure of getting a good ground, and there were specifications we had to meet, each site was tested with a megohmmeter, which involved sending high voltage into the earth at different points to test for resistance. I can confirm what you say is true. I was surprised at some of the variations in the ground's resistance I found, (here I literally mean the dirt), sometimes in as little as a 30 foot distance. In some places it was easy to get a good ground and in others it was not. In addition, ground potential changes in reaction to temperature, precipitation, etc..

In regards to the tragedy that started this thread, I have read that it happened during storms and serious flooding in the area. These events can create grounds where before there were none, strengthen grounds that before were weak, and destroy previously existing well made grounds. And, the same flooding can cause voltage to be applied to places it had not been previously.

I don't have any experience with RCCB or ELCB devices, but in reading about them over the last few days, I see that there are some events that properly installed and well functioning units cannot protect against.

It is quite possible that the tragic event that started this thread was not due to human incompetence.

Edited April 10, 2011 by siamiam

[BuckarooBanzai]

Even with the best of grounding it is still abit dicey. In the states they require at least 2 points of grounding: 2 8 foot by 3/4 grounding rods or one rod and grounding to rebar in the foundation. In the classs I have taken grounding has been called an art rether than a science. Good luck and RIP to the victims.

One summer, a long time ago, I worked on a fiber optic cable installation, where one of my tasks was installing earth grounds for the cable at each splice point on 'my' 200 mile section of the route. To be sure of getting a good ground, and there were specifications we had to meet, each site was tested with a megohmmeter, which involved sending high voltage into the earth at different points to test for resistance. I can confirm what you say is true. I was surprised at some of the variations in the ground's resistance I found, (here I literally mean the dirt), sometimes in as little as a 30 foot distance. In some places it was easy to get a good ground and in others it was not. In addition, ground potential changes in reaction to temperature, precipitation, etc..

In regards to the tragedy that started this thread, I have read that it happened during storms and serious flooding in the area. These events can create grounds where before there were none, strengthen grounds that before were weak, and destroy previously existing well made grounds. And, the same flooding can cause voltage to be applied to places it had not been previously.

I don't have any experience with RCCB or ELCB devices, but in reading about them over the last few days, I see that there are some events that properly installed and well functioning units cannot protect against.

It is quite possible that the tragic event that started this thread was not due to human incompetence.

I can assure you that by having a conductive shower hose is incompetence.

[siamiam]

I can assure you that by having a conductive shower hose is incompetence.

I am not so sure, even though It's not something you or I would have in our personal residence. In this case, I think it depends on who installed it. If it was installed by an electrician, then yes, I might consider that to be incompetence, but not necessarily. If it was bought by the hotel owner at a retail location and installed by the owner, then I would not think of the owner as being incompetent. Ignorant yes, incompetent no. I guess then you could say that the manufacturer of such a thing is incompetent, but they could probably make an argument against it. If a tree fell over during this natural disaster and hurt someone, would that make the person who planted that tree incompetent? I definitely agree with you about not wanting one though; the metal hose that is.

Edited April 10, 2011 by siamiam

[BuckarooBanzai]

I can assure you that by having a conductive shower hose is incompetence.

I am not so sure, even though It's not something you or I would have in our personal residence. In this case, I think it depends on who installed it. If it was installed by an electrician, then yes, I might consider that to be incompetence. If it was bought by the hotel owner at a retail location and installed by the owner, then I would not think of the owner as being incompetent. Ignorant yes, incompetent no. I guess then you could say that the manufacturer of such a thing is incompetent, but, they could probably make an argument against it. I definitely agree with you about not wanting one.

Siamiam, do a google image search on the hot water heater devices we are talking about. You will find that most of the manufacturers have pictures of their product with conductive water hoses. This is simply because they look fancy and they want to sell product. I am not placing the blame on the installers, but I am placing blame on the ignorance of people who sell and install electrical devices. Simply put, it should not be allowed. Manufacturers and electricians should be held accountable.

[JohanB]

I realize the increased dangers of a wet human coming into contact with a voltage differential over that of a dry human as this is the reason for the whole topic about electrical dangers in the shower. Water definitely increases the risk of electrocution in an unsafe environment but generally by direct contact with a primary conductor and not the water alone.

I don't know if the following is the right way to calculate the conductivity of water and thus how dangerous it would be in a given situation. What I came up with seems to say the same as in BB's post above. I would like to hear from people who might be at odds with these numbers. Set me straight if I am in error here. I used the standard current=voltage devided by resistance, same as you would for a more conventional conductor.

I took some Ohm readings for water and water based solutions. Weather it was tap water, or a 'shower water', (water, salt, and hand soap), that I was measuring, (in higher concentration than I would expect to find under shower conditions), the resistance figures point to a current flow in the liquid well below danger level, when applied to either 120v or 240v.

Here are my test figures. Tested: two inches of liquid in a glass bowl, test probes less than one inch apart for all readings. All figures have been rounded up.

Tap water resistance was 308 k ohms = current of .0004A (at 120v) .0008A (at 240v)

Shower Water (water, salt, soap) resistance was 125 k ohms = current of .001A (at 120v) .002A (at 240v)

Yes you're in error here. The area of the test probes in the water must be in accordance with the area equal of of a hand or a foot print. some 100 to 300 cm2.

JohanB

Edited April 10, 2011 by JohanB

[BuckarooBanzai]

I realize the increased dangers of a wet human coming into contact with a voltage differential over that of a dry human as this is the reason for the whole topic about electrical dangers in the shower. Water definitely increases the risk of electrocution in an unsafe environment but generally by direct contact with a primary conductor and not the water alone.

I don't know if the following is the right way to calculate the conductivity of water and thus how dangerous it would be in a given situation. What I came up with seems to say the same as in BB's post above. I would like to hear from people who might be at odds with these numbers. Set me straight if I am in error here. I used the standard current=voltage devided by resistance, same as you would for a more conventional conductor.

I took some Ohm readings for water and water based solutions. Weather it was tap water, or a 'shower water', (water, salt, and hand soap), that I was measuring, (in higher concentration than I would expect to find under shower conditions), the resistance figures point to a current flow in the liquid well below danger level, when applied to either 120v or 240v.

Here are my test figures. Tested: two inches of liquid in a glass bowl, test probes less than one inch apart for all readings. All figures have been rounded up.

Tap water resistance was 308 k ohms = current of .0004A (at 120v) .0008A (at 240v)

Shower Water (water, salt, soap) resistance was 125 k ohms = current of .001A (at 120v) .002A (at 240v)

Yes you're in error here. The area of the test probes in the water must be in accordance with the area equal of of a hand or a foot print. some 100 to 300 cm2.

JohanB

Simple question. What are you testing for, both input and output? And what is the appropriate distance based upon?

[siamiam]

Yes you're in error here. The area of the test probes in the water must be in accordance with the area equal of of a hand or a foot print. some 100 to 300 cm2.

JohanB

Johan, I wanted to use readings of least resisance, e.g. to simulate a hand or foot extremely close to a metal object. I looked at resistances up to a hands width, which gave a very slightly higher resistance reading, (as far as I could get in my glass bowl). From one inch up to the point just before the probes touched was the same reading, so I used that.

I am more concerned about weather or not this is a proper way to determine the conductivity of the water and thus how dangerous it would be in a given situation.

[ginjag]

I realize the increased dangers of a wet human coming into contact with a voltage differential over that of a dry human as this is the reason for the whole topic about electrical dangers in the shower. Water definitely increases the risk of electrocution in an unsafe environment but generally by direct contact with a primary conductor and not the water alone.

I don't know if the following is the right way to calculate the conductivity of water and thus how dangerous it would be in a given situation. What I came up with seems to say the same as in BB's post above. I would like to hear from people who might be at odds with these numbers. Set me straight if I am in error here. I used the standard current=voltage devided by resistance, same as you would for a more conventional conductor.

I took some Ohm readings for water and water based solutions. Weather it was tap water, or a 'shower water', (water, salt, and hand soap), that I was measuring, (in higher concentration than I would expect to find under shower conditions), the resistance figures point to a current flow in the liquid well below danger level, when applied to either 120v or 240v.

Here are my test figures. Tested: two inches of liquid in a glass bowl, test probes less than one inch apart for all readings. All figures have been rounded up.

Tap water resistance was 308 k ohms = current of .0004A (at 120v) .0008A (at 240v)

Shower Water (water, salt, soap) resistance was 125 k ohms = current of .001A (at 120v) .002A (at 240v)

Yes you're in error here. The area of the test probes in the water must be in accordance with the area equal of of a hand or a foot print. some 100 to 300 cm2.

JohanB

Simple question. What are you testing for, both input and output? And what is the appropriate distance based upon?

I do apologise for this intrusion, but after all these posts if we cannot get 100 or so non electicions/plumbers a masters degree in the said subject I would be surprised. I have followed with interest and it has been captivating at times.

Pleased don't take offence by this post, looking at the comments it will save many lives (serious).

I have been astounded by the info given, but although I do see the serious side, I smile to myself at the response, it's healthy. (although long in the tooth)

[siamiam]

Simple question. What are you testing for, both input and output? And what is the appropriate distance based upon?

I'm not sure what you are meaning, so I will try and explain in more of a layman's way. I wanted to know if two inches of standing water, (my test water level), would be a good enough conductor to complete a circuit where a persons foot was one inch from a grounded metal floor drain, (and they had grabed a source of 120v or 240v with a hand), though they were standing in a porcelain bathtub shower that showed very little ground potential when measured against the live lead of an electrical wall outlet. (I measured the tub floor and metal drain against the same live point of a wall outlet. The tub shows no potential, the drain shows full potential)

I may not have stated my intention as clearly as I need to. Please let me know, I will try it again, as I would really like to learn the truth of this.

Edited April 10, 2011 by siamiam

[BuckarooBanzai]

Simple question. What are you testing for, both input and output? And what is the appropriate distance based upon?

I'm not sure what you are meaning, so I will try and explain in more of a layman's way. I wanted to know if two inches of standing water, (my test water level), would be a good enough conductor to complete a circuit where a persons foot was one inch from a grounded metal floor drain, though they were standing in a porcelain bathtub shower that showed very little ground potential when measured against the live lead of an electrical wall outlet.

I may not have stated my intention as clearly as I need to. Please let me know, I will try it again, as I would really like to learn the truth of this.

Siamiam, you are a person with an admirable goal. But please look at #192. It is the people who should know better who are causing the problem!

Ginjag, help us out a little bit as this is a serious problem.

[siamiam]

Siamiam, you are a person with an admirable goal. But please look at #192. It is the people who should know better who are causing the problem!

Ginjag, help us out a little bit as this is a serious problem.

OK, we are on the same page regarding post #192. Metal sheathed hoses are a crazy thing to have in a shower.

[siamiam]

Simple question. What are you testing for, both input and output? And what is the appropriate distance based upon?

I'm not sure what you are meaning, so I will try and explain in more of a layman's way. I wanted to know if two inches of standing water, (my test water level), would be a good enough conductor to complete a circuit where a persons foot was one inch from a grounded metal floor drain, (and they had grabed a source of 120v or 240v with a hand), though they were standing in a porcelain bathtub shower that showed very little ground potential when measured against the live lead of an electrical wall outlet. (I measured the tub floor and metal drain against the same live point of a wall outlet. The tub shows no potential, the drain shows full potential)

I may not have stated my intention as clearly as I need to. Please let me know, I will try it again, as I would really like to learn the truth of this.

I need to add something here. "(I measured the tub floor and metal drain against the same live point of a wall outlet. The tub shows no potential, the drain shows full potential)" --- these are dry readings, without water in the tub. When water is in the tub, that water reads the same potential as the metal drain. My question is: the water has a very high resistance, so though it reads the same potential as the drain, will there be a harmful current flow?

I am trying to prove what you said earlier on this thread:

"I realize the increased dangers of a wet human coming into contact with a voltage differential over that of a dry human as this is the reason for the whole topic about electrical dangers in the shower. Water definitely increases the risk of electrocution in an unsafe environment but generally by direct contact with a primary conductor and not the water alone."

Edited April 10, 2011 by siamiam

[BuckarooBanzai]

Simple question. What are you testing for, both input and output? And what is the appropriate distance based upon?

I'm not sure what you are meaning, so I will try and explain in more of a layman's way. I wanted to know if two inches of standing water, (my test water level), would be a good enough conductor to complete a circuit where a persons foot was one inch from a grounded metal floor drain, (and they had grabed a source of 120v or 240v with a hand), though they were standing in a porcelain bathtub shower that showed very little ground potential when measured against the live lead of an electrical wall outlet. (I measured the tub floor and metal drain against the same live point of a wall outlet. The tub shows no potential, the drain shows full potential)

I may not have stated my intention as clearly as I need to. Please let me know, I will try it again, as I would really like to learn the truth of this.

I need to add something here. "(I measured the tub floor and metal drain against the same live point of a wall outlet. The tub shows no potential, the drain shows full potential)" --- these are dry readings, without water in the tub. When water is in the tub, that water reads the same potential as the metal drain. My question is: the water has a very high resistance, so though it reads the same potential as the drain, will there be a harmful current flow?

I am trying to prove what you said earlier on this thread:

"I realize the increased dangers of a wet human coming into contact with a voltage differential over that of a dry human as this is the reason for the whole topic about electrical dangers in the shower. Water definitely increases the risk of electrocution in an unsafe environment but generally by direct contact with a primary conductor and not the water alone."

Siamiam read #78. If you have a shower with several routes to ground you are in danger of dying. Do not touch the hot water heater inlet/outlet and do not touch any paths to ground and you will be OK. I really respect that you care about people and I only wish the people that sold and installed these products cared as much as you. Cheers!

Edited April 10, 2011 by BuckarooBanzai

[siamiam]

I don't have any experience with RCCB or ELCB devices, but in reading about them over the last few days, I see that there are some events that properly installed and well functioning units cannot protect against.

In my reading about these devices, I noticed that there are units that are made to protect humans and units that are made to protect equipment. The two different types ‘tripping’ at different levels. I assume it is unlikely that an equipment-protecting device would be installed in error, for human protection.

[BuckarooBanzai]

I don't have any experience with RCCB or ELCB devices, but in reading about them over the last few days, I see that there are some events that properly installed and well functioning units cannot protect against.

In my reading about these devices, I noticed that there are units that are made to protect humans and units that are made to protect equipment. The two different types 'tripping' at different levels. I assume it is unlikely that an equipment-protecting device would be installed in error, for human protection.

Look up GFI and RCCB and ELCB on google and it will keep you reading for hours. These are installed for human protection. Installed properly they will work. But there are a lot of ifs, ands, and buts that make it somewhat murky. Two protective devices are very much warranted in protecting the family. The one that comes with the hot water heater and a gfi/Rccb circuit breaker inline.

[siamiam]

Yes you're in error here. The area of the test probes in the water must be in accordance with the area equal of of a hand or a foot print. some 100 to 300 cm2.

JohanB

Johan, I wanted to use readings of least resisance, e.g. to simulate a hand or foot extremely close to a metal object. I looked at resistances up to a hands width, which gave a very slightly higher resistance reading, (as far as I could get in my glass bowl). From one inch up to the point just before the probes touched was the same reading, so I used that.

I am more concerned about weather or not this is a proper way to determine the conductivity of the water and thus how dangerous it would be in a given situation.

My reason for asking about this is because if the water in the tub or shower does in fact provide enough resistance to prevent a lethal current flow, then it should be possible, in some cases, to eliminate the path to ground, or at least a deadly path to ground, at the shower or tub drain, without a large expense incurred by the property owner. As an example: The shower-tub is isolated from ground very well, but the metal drain cover and pipe just below it are well grounded. So, if the water's resistance will prevent a lethal current flow, it would mean that if I were in the shower and there was a knob on the wall that was energized, if I touched that knob and was standing off of the metal drain I would be ok. Maybe jolted, but ok. Whereas if I were standing on the metal drain, then I would be hurt or killed. I am hoping that it is possible to eliminate the metal drain ground by simply removing the metal cover and replacing it with a very inexpensive plastic cover of some type, (maybe not yet in existence), that would give a persons feet enough clearance from the metal drain pipe below to make all the difference. I think that solutions to a problem like a grounded floor drain must be very economical, otherwise many property owners would not undertake the solution. Of course, all this depends on how water reacts in such a situation and weather or not the shower floor is a good path to ground in and of itself, regardless of the drain.

[siamiam]

Johan, I wanted to use readings of least resisance....

My reason for asking about this is because .....

I believe I have answered my own question. I found websites that variously list the number of Microsiemens in tap water at 100 to 1000. Then I found another website that converts Microsiemens to Amps per Volt. Even 100 Microsiemens in tap water would allow a current high enough to kill a human. So, two things I learned:

1) Ohms law and its variations is not what you can use for figuring the conductivity of water.

2) There is not an inexpensive and easy fix to get rid of a grounded shower drain.

[luckizuchinni]

FWIW

The nasty system is when your monkey hammers a masonary nail into a concrete column and then wraps the earth wire around. Wouldnt put my money on that one but its common practice.

So like the coconut monkeys in Samui, you have a monkey doing your electrics?

[Ulysses G.]

This is the problem with forums. Some posters claim that there is little chance of danger with a modern heater and others say that that is is almost impossible to prevent danger and to a layman, they all sound like they know what they are talking about.

[siamiam]

When I stated I wanted to get rid of the grounded drain, I should have said that I want to isolate my self from the grounded drain, not get rid of it. Same as I would rather be isolated from all grounds. However, I would like everything to be grounded. Sounds like a contradiction I know, but if everything is grounded then any voltage touching it will find a path to ground that way, rather than through my body, (which has a resistance of 2,000 ohms or so). I would just like to be isolated from all of it, grounds and hot points, so whatever happens, I will be safe.

[ginjag]

This is the problem with forums. Some posters claim that there is little chance of danger with a modern heater and others say that that is is almost impossible to prevent danger and to a layman, they all sound like they know what they are talking about.

The reading of the 9 pages of this said subject is very informative to say the least, if we cannot get at least 100 posters a uni-diploma from the info gathered I would be surprised.

I havent even tried to answer any posts as I am not a electrical minded person apart from fitting a plug point. So many posters have hung theirselves with electrical wireing 10 times over. I have learned quite a bit about the subject, but yet again it's getting long in the tooth.

In Sri Lanka I rigged a simple 50 meters of clear plastic hose and snaked it on the house roof, it was fabulous and I had constant hot water without any electrical probs. With not needing so much water per shower I never ran off all the hot water in the pipe. SUNSHINE has many advantages, I have done the same thing here in the Nth of Thailand. TRY IT and save money also !!!!!!

[siamiam]

This is the problem with forums. Some posters claim that there is little chance of danger with a modern heater and others say that that is is almost impossible to prevent danger and to a layman, they all sound like they know what they are talking about.

It's not just forums either. There is a lot of contradictory information on the web as well. Like one good website states, it is not easy to find the information you are looking for on this subject via the internet. Lots of information, but not easy to get a good correct answer to your particular question. I checked my two water heaters today, they are both gas, without electrical connections. Everything in my shower is grounded and there is one water handle for both hot and cold, which is made of plastic. Whew!