You Are To Blame For Thailand's Appalling Politics

[geriatrickid]

Those 2500 were not necessarily all murdered.

<snip>

Yes, only 1400 were.

Even those that may have been suspected or identified or accused of being involved in drugs, if they are killed without due process in a trial, it's murder.

In an apprehended insurrection when organized crime syndicates wage war on the state, innocent people die. Western nations have a term for it: Collateral damage.

This thread is just an excuse for the usual gang to find a reason to bash Thaksin. The fact of the matter is that Thaksin used the civil authorities to respond to what was for all intents and purposes an attempt by organized crime syndicates and cartels to control Thailand. Perhaps some would have been happier had Thaksin called in the army to drop cluster ordinance on the border zones that were under the control of the criminals. The Thai government did what any democrat nation would do in such times, it used the civil structures that were available to it. If the police screwed up, if there were mistakes made, this was a reflection of the quality of pesonnel and the officers in charge.

Had Thaksin not acted Thailand would have become an outlaw state. It is easy to blame the government of the day, but the options were limited as the mobsters had seized control of all branches of local authority in some regions. I do not recall there being much protest at the time when the government acted. The government acted with a broad civil consensus to keep the nation safe. The fact of the matter is that despite some groups trying to play the blame game, subsequent inquiries and investigations could not find conclusive evidence. of senior ministerial wrong doing.

I suggest some foreign guests climb off their bar stools in Pattaya and visit some hot zones in SE Asia where drug cartels, poachers and human trafficers operate. Having been shot at by poachers I am slightly sensitive. These people are sick mofos and have no care about civil rights, the law or shooting innocent bystanders. It is indeed sad and regretable that some people may have died due to the negligence of the authorities at the time. There was no other option. If you want to know what the result of not acting would have been, I again invite you to go visit Mexico.

[SteeleJoe]

Great post (and not only becasue you commented favorably on mine ).

think that is a well balanced 'off the top of your head' response

There can be no denial that 'elite' exist and influence in countries all around the globe. The elite effectively provide the finance to back the non government industry sector

The conflict of interest arrives when the elite are also the government.

Conflict of interest when the cost, and benefit to the country, of overseas investment, cannot be matched the indigenous 'elite'

Certainly I agree with all of that. But what I was trying to get at is that who ever is in charge will by definition become the elite and won't be much better, if at all.

I also agree with the fact that the I also agree with the fact that the mai pen rai mentality has been so instilled into the proletariat that only real education and exposure to honest government has got to be the way forward

Who is to say Abhisit is not capable of such an achievement?.........but what constraints is he working under which may limit his vision and results? has been so instilled into the proletariat that only real education and exposure to honest government has got to be the way forward

Who is to say Abhisit is not capable of such an achievement?.........but what constraints is he working under which may limit his vision and results?

I agree with all of that as well but I wasn't just referring to the mai pen rai mentality but the central role of social hierarchical attitudes and even things like Thai interpretations of Buddhism and Confucianism and other core values -- the simple fact is that while fairness and justice may be fairly universal ideals and naturally desired IN THEORY by most people (even sometimes those who are in power and benefiting from inequality), in practice Thais often accept that those who have power must deserve to be in power because they are in power. And moreover it is often taken for granted that those who are in power have the right to call the shots to their own advantage.

Those of us from western democracies know that "some are more equal than others" and there is of course a ruling elite that doesn't include us, but at least our societies truly aspire to egalitarianism, strive for it, and occasionally approximate it -- even your average western elite would often agree that things should be fair and equal (but say "tough sh*t, it's not" and continue to enjoy their status), while here they will often think that as a rather odd notion. Even sometimes the more democratic of those in control will wind up feeling that the mere fact that they are proves their superiority and that the inferiors wouldn't know how to handle things even if they were given a chance.

Another rushed job but have to go. May want to try and clarify yet again...

[SteeleJoe]

GeriatricKid: In the interest of full disclosure I really want to keep this civil and there's no reason why I shouldn't but I have to confess much about your stance infuriates me.

It is really well written, well argued and no doubt sincere. But I think it's quite bigoted and lacking in accuracy (though I can't prove the former and don't know that I can prove the latter either). I'm not sure I have the skill, the facts, or the ambition to refute it but I will say one thing that jars me about this last post of yours, and previous posts by yourself and others:

You assume a separation between the lawbreakers and government/law enforcement. You talk about "the mafia" and cartels as if they had somehow managed to get where they independent of and in in spite of law enforcement and political leadership (albeit inadequate). But the fact is law enforcement and sometimes even politicians haven't just failed to stop crime through lack of resolve and/or incompetence, or even simply turned a blind eye to it (though the latter is obviously often the case). To significant degree of prevalence, they are directly complicit in and sometimes even in charge of criminal activity.

And that's because Thailand doesn't have Rule of Law.

[473geo]

I guess Steelejoe my interpretation of Mai pen rai is quite broad...............not a simple 'no problem'......'doesn't matter'

I see the mai pen rai attitude as more of a don't worry about what you cannot change...

I witness the belief instilled that Yai not to be questioned........have you ever noticed how uncomfortable some Thai become if you respond to a declaration with a direct question? There is no real sense of debate or a need to explain in detail, unless absolutely pushed.

I personally think times are changing, for instance young people now drive vehicles their elders cannot, they have electronic equipment their elders cannot fully comprehend (me included at times)......little every day demonstrations of the elders knowledge limitations such as these are sowing the seeds of change.......I hope that the Thai respect for their elders does remain in tact, but that the youth are released from the expectation that they must always be subserviant on appropriate levels.......and are not allowed to question.

I applaud your comment about the Thai thinking somebody in 'power' deserves to be there......very astute observation.......I would like to think I am also locally witnessing changes in this mode of thought too.

Edit Freudian slip....and clarity

Edited April 9, 2011 by 473geo

[random]

Those 2500 were not necessarily all murdered.

<snip>

Yes, only 1400 were.

Even those that may have been suspected or identified or accused of being involved in drugs, if they are killed without due process in a trial, it's murder.

So the people killed by the army last year were murdered?? just change the word 'drugs' in your comment to the word 'protests'.

[random]

geriatrickid, I don't always agree with you but today you can have a

[SteeleJoe]

Geo:

...have you ever noticed how uncomfortable some Thai become if you respond to a declaration with a direct question? There is no real sense of debate or a need to explain in detail, unless absolutely pushed.

No, I hadn't noticed that..well except for several isolated thousand instances

I

personally think times are changing...

As do I -- slowly and to a degree. I fear they can not change adequately without running up against the foundations of Thai culture and society -- therein lies the challenege for Thais (who quite naturally want to preserve their "Thainess" -- especially as some of those impediameents are in some contexts the most admirable and pleasing aspects of Thailand -- including mai pen rai but also defernce to seniority and so on).

...I hope that the Thai respect for their elders does remain in tact, but that they are released from the expectation that they must always be subserviant on appropriate levels.......and are not allowed to question.

Yeah, me too...but I'm not entirely sure how that delicate operation will go. Or if it's even possible.

I applaud your comment about the Thai thinking somebody in 'power' deserves to be there......very astute observation.......I would like to think I am also locally witnessing changes in this mode of thought too.

Thanks. And I too would like to think that -- and maybe we are. But again..is it enough?

And then there's...well, other stuff (chief among them the reverence for wealth no matter its source, the lack of social opprobrium and CORRUPTION which is more massive, systematic and systemic than I think most people realize -- even while they view it as huge I suspect that they don't realize how huge. or how much it affects almost everything.)

[Buchholz]

Those 2500 were not necessarily all murdered.

<snip>

Yes, only 1400 were.

Even those that may have been suspected or identified or accused of being involved in drugs, if they are killed without due process in a trial, it's murder.

Which is of course, what drug dealers do every day of their lives, it is wrong to murder both the dealers and their addicts but if one group had to die most sane people wouldnt be arguing for it to be the addicts.

*sigh*

How about nobody gets murdered by the police, dealer/addict/uninvolved in drugs, in a non-judicial manner?

[SteeleJoe]

How about nobody gets murdered by the police, dealer/addict/uninvolved in drugs, in a non-judicial manner?

Hey, there's an idea!

Amazing, isn't it, that grown-up still resort to the "well he/she/they do it, why shouldn't I/we!", And that boring and common sense cliches like "two wrongs don't make a right" still need to be trotted out.

Good posts Bucholz.

And Landofthefree, et al: As much as I wish there weren't criminals (drug dealers and/or murderers) at all, I'd far prefer a socierty where by and large only criminals break the law. (And unlike in the Drug War, the vast majority of people killed by organized criminals of whatever stripe are other criminals -- the avareage citizen is relatively rarely in danger of being murdered by them).

[SteeleJoe]

DUPLICATE

Edited April 9, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[Buchholz]

Even those that may have been suspected or identified or accused of being involved in drugs, if they are killed without due process in a trial, it's murder.

In an apprehended insurrection when organized crime syndicates wage war on the state, innocent people die. Western nations have a term for it: Collateral damage.

This thread is just an excuse for the usual gang to find a reason to bash Thaksin.

And the usual gang to find a reason to defend him.

To condone and attempt to justify the wholesale slaughter of 2,500 innocent people (all were innocent as none received due process) is an abomination, IMHO.

The Thai government did what any democrat nation would do in such times, it used the civil structures that were available to it.

Ridiculous. Other democratic nations that non-judicially massacred 2,500 of its people in efforts to control drugs? The control of drugs is something that every nation of the world faces, but yet, they don't murder its people in such a manner.

It is indeed sad and regretable that some people may have died due to the negligence of the authorities at the time. There was no other option.

"some people" numbering at least 2,500.

"no other option" is a lame excuse as there are many other options that don't include massive murder.

[landofthefree]

']

Those 2500 were not necessarily all murdered.

<snip>

Yes, only 1400 were.

Even those that may have been suspected or identified or accused of being involved in drugs, if they are killed without due process in a trial, it's murder.

Which is of course, what drug dealers do every day of their lives, it is wrong to murder both the dealers and their addicts but if one group had to die most sane people wouldnt be arguing for it to be the addicts.

*sigh*

How about nobody gets murdered by the police, dealer/addict/uninvolved in drugs, in a non-judicial manner?

Yes, that would be ideal but some recognition of the fact that drug dealers also murder people with drugs in a non judicial manner seems to be missing here.

[473geo]

Thanks. And I too would like to think that -- and maybe we are. But again..is it enough?

And then there's...well, other stuff (chief among them the reverence for wealth no matter its source, the lack of social opprobrium and CORRUPTION which is more massive, systematic and systemic than I think most people realize -- even while they view it as huge I suspect that they don't realize how huge. or how much it affects almost everything.)

Here I think you have completed the full circle.........the elements above are more promptly and efficiently addressed from top down............but to achieve.........must have the correct elected representatives in relevant positions, with the authority to make responsible decisions

A huge task indeed

[oldsailor35]

I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

You're fortunate you're not one of the 2500 people who were murdered without the benefit of a trial.

An old saying ........If you fly with the crows. You get shot with the crows !

[SteeleJoe]

Geo: Spot on. Now I think we have reached complete agreement.

Too bad it doesn't make a da^n bit of difference.

EDITED to ADRESS

Edited April 9, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[oldsailor35]

I have no politcal leanings in Thailand as I can't vote anyway, but I'm astonished that this article fails to mention the 2006 coup. Whether justified or not, how are voters to be blamed for the consequences of this exactly? It's a strange position to take, I feel.

I'm not Thai and don't care about politics one way or another, but I've lived here since 2005 and I've seen and experienced for myself the difference post-coup in increased anti-social behavior, drug use and crime in the area I live. Lots of things like the 2am closing time for pubs, for example, were just forgotten where once they were strictly enforced. I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

The night after the coup I arrived back in Bangkok from Phnom Penh and witnessed bars staying open well into the wee hours, something that was unheard of during Thaksin's tenure in that particular area. It seemed as if that very night, the respect for the rule of law had been almost completely lost.

I'm glad that you have noticed the spiralling crime rates and increased drug usage and anti-social behaviour, I have noticed this too, and statistics seem to indicate crime is out of control under this administration.

You can add the army to that. Thailand is heading for a Myanmar type junta.

[SteeleJoe]

Man, I need to wake up if I'm going to post; not only have a made a complete mess of my typing, I've missed things I should have seen in others' posts...

Not only was it ridiculous to claim the Thai government did what any democrat nation would do in such times this part is so very wrong:

It is indeed sad and regretable that some people may have died due to the negligence of the authorities at the time.

Negligence?! What about quite deliberate and active complicity?

[rubl]

How can you possibly doubt the words of Abhisit our great leader, why it was just weeks ago when he reported the huge drop of crime under his tenure. Then again he could have been lying, I mean it wouldn't be the first time that a prime minister lied would it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PM Abhisit was only talking Bangkok I think. No mention of other parts of the country. Surely the red-shirt / UDD controlled part of the country is really democratic and sees no crime or violence ? The local elite takes care of their people? Etc., etc., etc.

[whybother]

In an apprehended insurrection when organized crime syndicates wage war on the state, innocent people die. Western nations have a term for it: Collateral damage.

<snip>

Well said. Red shirt supporters should take note.

[jdinasia]

An old saying ........If you fly with the crows. You get shot with the crows !

You are making a case (as whybother pointed out with another poster,) not for innocents killed during the War on Drugs, but to the redshirt insurrection in BKK. Again, It might be a good idea to look into who some of the innocents killed in the War on Drugs were ......

[473geo]

In an apprehended insurrection when organized crime syndicates wage war on the state, innocent people die. Western nations have a term for it: Collateral damage.

<snip>

Well said. Red shirt supporters should take note.

But then to follow your logic....as the government has not been brought to task about events surrounding the protest in Bangkok........there is no case to answer regarding the drugs clean up.................or is that not the message you try to convey?

[Crushdepth]

Do any of you really believe that the police *just* killed drug dealers? If the answer is 'no', how does that affect your moral calculations on extra judicial killings?

[whybother]

In an apprehended insurrection when organized crime syndicates wage war on the state, innocent people die. Western nations have a term for it: Collateral damage.

<snip>

Well said. Red shirt supporters should take note.

But then to follow your logic....as the government has not been brought to task about events surrounding the protest in Bangkok........there is no case to answer regarding the drugs clean up.................or is that not the message you try to convey?

Wouldn't that actually be the other way around. Since Thaksin hasn't been bought to task about the drug deaths, there is no case to answer for the events surrounding the protest?

But actually, I don't equate the two situations. In the case of the drug killings, people were killed just going about their daily lives not even breaking the law. In the case of the protests, people were killed while they were breaking the law, some while actively attacking the army. Ofcourse, I am not suggesting that protesters should have been shot just for being at the protest, but when there are people around them attacking the army (some with weapons) who they are helping, or at least have knowledge of, then they are putting themselves in danger.

[473geo]

In an apprehended insurrection when organized crime syndicates wage war on the state, innocent people die. Western nations have a term for it: Collateral damage.

<snip>

Well said. Red shirt supporters should take note.

But then to follow your logic....as the government has not been brought to task about events surrounding the protest in Bangkok........there is no case to answer regarding the drugs clean up.................or is that not the message you try to convey?

Wouldn't that actually be the other way around. Since Thaksin hasn't been bought to task about the drug deaths, there is no case to answer for the events surrounding the protest?

But actually, I don't equate the two situations. In the case of the drug killings, people were killed just going about their daily lives not even breaking the law. In the case of the protests, people were killed while they were breaking the law, some while actively attacking the army. Ofcourse, I am not suggesting that protesters should have been shot just for being at the protest, but when there are people around them attacking the army (some with weapons) who they are helping, or at least have knowledge of, then they are putting themselves in danger.

Thank you.....you make my point very well.......

[whybother]

Thank you.....you make my point very well.......

What's your point?

[rubl]

In an apprehended insurrection when organized crime syndicates wage war on the state, innocent people die. Western nations have a term for it: Collateral damage.

<snip>

Well said. Red shirt supporters should take note.

But then to follow your logic....as the government has not been brought to task about events surrounding the protest in Bangkok........there is no case to answer regarding the drugs clean up.................or is that not the message you try to convey?

Your reply may refer to some posts, but not to the ones you quote. That way it's really difficult to follow your logic

[gregb]

The fact of the matter is that Thaksin used the civil authorities to respond to what was for all intents and purposes an attempt by organized crime syndicates and cartels to control Thailand.

Actually, this isn't too far off the mark. Then, the military had to step in to stop Thaksin, who was trying to set himself up as the replacement to that organized crime syndicate, who he only removed because they stood as an impediment to his attempts to establish himself as supreme dictator.

Many of the Thaksin lovers on this board gloss over that inconvenient fact.

As for myself, my heart goes out to the brave military soldiers who risked their reputations in 2006 to oust the murderous, cretinous demigogue who cared nothing for the Thai people. And a similar word of praise to those soldiers who last year did their duty and stopped the violent red movement including the hideous men in black who were trying to return that evil barbarian to the peaceful Thai shores through unconscionable violence.

May the military always be there to protect us peace loving people from those violent red murderers.

Saturday night on Thai Visa...isn't it fun?

[473geo]

In an apprehended insurrection when organized crime syndicates wage war on the state, innocent people die. Western nations have a term for it: Collateral damage.

<snip>

Well said. Red shirt supporters should take note.

But then to follow your logic....as the government has not been brought to task about events surrounding the protest in Bangkok........there is no case to answer regarding the drugs clean up.................or is that not the message you try to convey?

Your reply may refer to some posts, but not to the ones you quote. That way it's really difficult to follow your logic

The usual difficulty with following logic is because a person wishes it to lead to particular preferred conclusion..........perhaps because I have no such aims.......yes, there will be many on Tvisa who will struggle to accept my logic......

[rubl]

But then to follow your logic....as the government has not been brought to task about events surrounding the protest in Bangkok........there is no case to answer regarding the drugs clean up.................or is that not the message you try to convey?

Your reply may refer to some posts, but not to the ones you quote. That way it's really difficult to follow your logic

The usual difficulty with following logic is because a person wishes it to lead to particular preferred conclusion..........perhaps because I have no such aims.......yes, there will be many on Tvisa who will struggle to accept my logic......

Just what I thought. May I be so bold as to offer you this particular piece of wisdom?

"We needed to have the press be our friend ... We wanted them to ask the questions we want to answer so that they report the news the way we want it to be reported."

--Sharron Angle, during an interview with Fox News Channel's Carl Cameron, Aug. 2, 2010

[473geo]

But then to follow your logic....as the government has not been brought to task about events surrounding the protest in Bangkok........there is no case to answer regarding the drugs clean up.................or is that not the message you try to convey?

Your reply may refer to some posts, but not to the ones you quote. That way it's really difficult to follow your logic

The usual difficulty with following logic is because a person wishes it to lead to particular preferred conclusion..........perhaps because I have no such aims.......yes, there will be many on Tvisa who will struggle to accept my logic......

Just what I thought. May I be so bold as to offer you this particular piece of wisdom?

"We needed to have the press be our friend ... We wanted them to ask the questions we want to answer so that they report the news the way we want it to be reported."

--Sharron Angle, during an interview with Fox News Channel's Carl Cameron, Aug. 2, 2010

Indeed quite true for those who would believe their comments carry influence..........I do not seek to influence......I carry the belief that most people on Tvisa are adults, and entitled to make their own decisions in life..........

just as I carry the belief that the Thai people are also entitled to make their own decisions, learn by their own mistakes and progress at their own speed towards the materialistic melee so prominent in the so called civilised western world.

Edited April 9, 2011 by 473geo