Militants May Join Thailand Insurgency

[WhiteShiva]

IndoSiam,

You forgot the part where they fired at the protesters (7 killed, I belive). Something the police & army initially denied, even after video footage and photographs of officials firing into the crowd emerged.

Several of the prisoners were beaten with rifle butts and kicked while on the trucks, and several of the deaths were due to head injuries.

Another thing you did not mention was the fact that the army had surrounded the area during the demonstration, and physically stopped people from leaving. I spoke to a senator at the FCCT just days after the incident, and several students working for him were reported missing after the incident. They had gone there to investigate and document what was happening. So if anyone is under the impression that all the people arrested at Tak Bai were violent protesters, they are wrong.

And why did some of the trucks take up to 10 hours to travel a distance of only 60-70 km? And why was no action taken when the first truck arrived with dead detainees?

It is not just incompetent, it is evil.

[thedude]

I do know that it isn't just a simple demand for independence. That is the end result from having their grievances ignored

no its not.

its part of a worldwide movement whereby extremist muslim groups , with a penchant for the slaughter of innocents and supported and financed by shadowy backers in other parts of the muslim world , hijack possibly valid reasons for discontent by people who happen to be muslim , in other parts of the world for their own anarchic ends.

allowing them to win will just strengthen their hand for the next location that they choose to make trouble in.

they should be killed , every single one of them. and the majority of peace loving muslims in southern thailand should be turning these interlopers and activists and their supporters in to the thai authorities.

the sooner its done the better it will be for the future of all in the south.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

very well said taxexile. you are one of very few who actually get it.

the VAST majority of the peace loving, law abiding muslim citizens living in the south don't spend their days praying for independence. they are simple folk who have no clue about our fancy western view of democracy, and frankly they would rather go on living the way they have done for centuries. now, there are subversive influences living amongst them, exploiting their muslim faith and preying on their lack of education, seeding highly emotive and separatist thoughts, fermenting hatred. inciting them towards violence and uprising.

why on earth should the thai government abide by this? these extremists have no more right to their demands than the thai government has a right to maintain sovereignity. the whole thing about separatism is merely a justification cleverly taken from history, a PR spin to give motivation to create chaos. the REAL agenda is to eventually create a fundamentalist muslim region incorporating most of south east asia. captured members of the terrorist movement themselves have said as much (including those from bali and philippines etc).

if the fundamentalists can so easily prey on the people now, imagine what would happen if they actually got their own state? i don't know about you 'shades of grey' people, but i certainly wouldn't want to be living next to a sort of taliban state, the mere existence of which will surely destabalise the entire region. wake up and smell the coffee people!

[sriracha john]

But - these were not "innocent Muslims" - these were lawbreaking rioters, who were trying to free murderers from prison.

Had they already been convicted of murder? No... also they were in jail, not prison. Precise wording counts. Otherwise things get bent to color only one side.

They could just as well all have been shot for defying martial law.

If given a choice they probably would have preferred being shot to being suffocated to death under a pile of humanity... far less excruciating and much quicker.

And - I had watched them being given the chance to disperse peacefully - an opportunity which not one of them took.

A charge of failing to disperse does not entail the death penalty...... yet. How many that died were mere onlookers and spectators and were not actively violent protestors or attempting to free the jailed the accused?... Don't know, do you? No one does. The dead can't speak.

No question - the handling of the detainees was atrocious.  Much room for resentment there.

In agreement there.

This still does not justify taking two military investigators hostage - and not just killing them.  In case you have not seen the details, they were tortured to death - with their fingers and toes individually smashed into pulp with a hammer,and boiling oil poured all over them - all before they were killed.

Sorry, but raising a BIG flag of BS on that one. When I review the crime scene photos, they reveal no smashed, pulpy fingers. No oil pouring...

They were stabbed and yes it was brutal (and too graphic to post here), but their deaths were certainly NOT as you describe. What are your sources of information for this inflated exaggeration??

Looking at the postings above - Timothy McVeigh did not sadistically torture individuals for the pleasure of it. 

How can you state they did it "for the pleasure of it?" What an inflammatory, unproven, highly speculative accusation.... 

The Tak Bai military was not methodically torturing individuals for enjoyment. 

see previous comment...purely conjecture they took "enjoyment"...  HOWEVER, when the military were caught on film laughing at the "worms" on the ground at Tak Bai (btw, that is one of things that shocked my Thai relations the most as it's meaning and connotation in their Thai culture is much more severe than the mere physical discomfort your Ranger background has... they were all aghast at such treatment EVEN before they turned up dead later), one might reasonably conclude they were at least a little bit sadistically pleased. No similar footage exists in the recent killings.

Edited September 29, 2005 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

IndoSiam,

You forgot the part where they fired at the protesters (7 killed, I belive).  Something the police & army initially denied, even after video footage and photographs of officials firing into the crowd emerged.

Several of the prisoners were beaten with rifle butts and kicked while on the trucks, and several of the deaths were due to head injuries.

Another thing you did not mention was the fact that the army had surrounded the area during the demonstration, and physically stopped people from leaving.  I spoke to a senator at the FCCT just days after the incident, and several students working for him were reported missing after the incident.  They had gone there to investigate and document what was happening.  So if anyone is under the impression that all the people arrested at Tak Bai were violent protesters, they are wrong.

And why did some of the trucks take up to 10 hours to travel a distance of only 60-70 km?  And why was no action taken when the first truck arrived with dead detainees?

It is not just incompetent, it is evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All very excellent points... I would just add the responsible Army general was subsequently promoted.

[ray23]

But - these were not "innocent Muslims" - these were lawbreaking rioters, who were trying to free murderers from prison.

Had they already been convicted of murder? No... also they were in jail, not prison. Precise wording counts. Otherwise things get bent to color only one side.

They could just as well all have been shot for defying martial law.

If given a choice they probably would have preferred being shot to being suffocated to death under a pile of humanity... far less excruciating and much quicker.

And - I had watched them being given the chance to disperse peacefully - an opportunity which not one of them took.

A charge of failing to disperse does not entail the death penalty...... yet. How many that died were mere onlookers and spectators and were not actively violent protestors or attempting to free the jailed the accused?... Don't know, do you? No one does. The dead can't speak.

No question - the handling of the detainees was atrocious.  Much room for resentment there.

In agreement there.

This still does not justify taking two military investigators hostage - and not just killing them.  In case you have not seen the details, they were tortured to death - with their fingers and toes individually smashed into pulp with a hammer,and boiling oil poured all over them - all before they were killed.

Sorry, but raising a BIG flag of BS on that one. When I review the crime scene photos, they reveal no smashed, pulpy fingers. No oil pouring...

They were stabbed and yes it was brutal (and too graphic to post here), but their deaths were certainly NOT as you describe. What are your sources of information for this inflated exaggeration??

Looking at the postings above - Timothy McVeigh did not sadistically torture individuals for the pleasure of it. 

How can you state they did it "for the pleasure of it?" What an inflammatory, unproven, highly speculative accusation.... 

The Tak Bai military was not methodically torturing individuals for enjoyment. 

see previous comment...purely conjecture they took "enjoyment"...  HOWEVER, when the military were caught on film laughing at the "worms" on the ground at Tak Bai (btw, that is one of things that shocked my Thai relations the most as it's meaning and connotation in their Thai culture is much more severe than the mere physical discomfort your Ranger background has... they were all aghast at such treatment EVEN before they turned up dead later), one might reasonably conclude they were at least a little bit sadistically pleased. No similar footage exists in the recent killings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How amazing we humans are, we want answers. But, you better do it our way. Which as best I can tell from this thread doesn't seem to be clearly defined. It is very comforting to require others to perform to levels that I doubt any of us are capable of doing. But it easy to point the finger, when another to perform the task.

As long a people are involved in violatile situations such as this, there will be mistakes and over reacting. I doubt what happened there was within policy, if the Military even has a policy for such things. They are not Police Officers nor are they trained in the same manner.

Unless I miss my guess the military didn't decide to have a seperate Muslim country established. No matter what mistakes are made now, the root cause does not change. Nor taking every action by anybody as a justification for more violence, provide a solution.

[Guest George Bush]

seonai - 

I will concur with one thing - I suspect that the world would be a better place if women ran it.

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Better for them possibly.

That would be ind of like marriages with no way out.

Does not sound very apealing.

[smb]

Looking at the postings above - Timothy McVeigh did not sadistically torture individuals for the pleasure of it.  The Tak Bai military was not methodically torturing individuals for enjoyment.  None of these people were pumping bullets into their own sister - and her husband - on a city street, to watch her die gurgling in front of you.

When ws the last time anyone saw anything about ANY other modern day group EXCEPT Muslims hanging the desecrated bodies of murdered foreigners off a bridge?  When was the last time anyone other than Muslims beheaded a screaming foreigner - not a soldier, but an aid worker - while videotaping it for their own glory?  The only comparisons I know of are the Nazi miscreants abusing Jewish concentration camp inmates, and the Imperial Japanese Army abusing Manchurian civilians.

The entire world has condemned the Nazi barbarians - and also the World War II Imperial Japanese Armed Forces.  And - that is the right thing to do.  And the Muslim barbarians of the early 21st Century should be viewed likewise - except I think the extemist Muslims are worse than the other two groups.

Let Islam clean its own house of these vermin - and then I will gladly befriend the Muslim world.   Bring the "Wolf Brigade" over from Iraq, and let then sort out the PULO extremists. 

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Condemn this

Look at this and remember this is not from world war two and those are not Muslims (thank god)

If this was done by a Muslim u all will blame Islam but they were Christians so they blame the person only

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

ISNT THIS SADISTICALLY TORTURE INDIVIDUALS FOR THE PLEASURE OF IT?

OR YOU WILL KEEP A BLIND EYE TO IT AS USUAL

talking about killing civilians here read this

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/145.shtml

and if you are intrested here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1308...rticle_continue

http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat/english/09...l-prisoners.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat/english/11...luja_221104.htm

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/30/1525237

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/608/608p28.htm

and if u want to see videos i will post them

You shouldn’t blame Islam for everything is done and we don’t blame your religion.

Actually the extremists always blame your religion and what I read here is that u do the same thing

Here this video is made by the Islamic extremists and they say what you guys say (KILL THEM ALL)

http://67.19.194.20/~terrori/cruisaders.wmv

they should put the extremists from both sides in one place and let them kill each other and leave us alone

Edited September 29, 2005 by smb

[Boon Mee]

Four soldiers, teacher killed in Thai Muslim south

Thai jihad update from Reuters,

BANGKOK, Sept 27 (Reuters) - Four Thai soldiers and a teacher were killed by suspected militants in Thailand's restive Muslim south where nearly 900 people have been killed in 21 months of violence, police said on Tuesday.

The soldiers, riding on two motorcycles, were shot dead by militants armed with pistols and AK-47 assault rifles near a school in Yala, one of three troubled provinces bordering Malaysia.

"There was an ambush about 500 metres from the school. The militants sprayed bullets from the jungle and all four died at the scene," Police Lieutenant-Colonel Mustopa Mani told Reuters.

In a separate incident, a teacher was shot dead in his car in the province of Pattani. Teachers are often targeted by insurgents as symbols of government authority.

[Pakboong]

Concerning Thailand - specifically - here is something for all the apologists for the Muslim terrorists to read - this is the statement by the Muslim OIC, following its inspection tour of the southern Thai provinces - less than three months ago:

OIC Statement Aboiut Thailand

Quoting from that piece:

BANGKOK, 8 June 2005 — The violence in Buddhist Thailand’s Muslim-majority south, in which more than 700 people have been killed since January 2004, is not a religious conflict, the head of an international Muslim delegation said yesterday.

“The roots of the problem could be anything but religion,” Sayed El-Masri, a former assistant secretary-general of the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference, said after a tour of the troubled provinces of Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat.

“Compared with many other countries, we find here permissiveness and tolerance. Nobody interferes with the Muslim community,” he told a news conference in Bangkok.

Note the source.

What I suspect that he is really saying:  Muslims in Thailand are treated better than most Muslims in Muslim-run countries.

The three "PULO provinces" were beautiful, and reasonably well off.  They are now joining the list of dismal, frightened, depressing places like Kashmir now, Kosovo ten years ago, Beirut 20 years ago.   

I wish it were otherwise.  I identify strongly with Thailand - in all the world, this is where I have settled to raise my family, and pursue my businesses.    The fact that a small group of vicious malcontents is intently focused upon terrorizing the people, and destroying the livelihoods of an entire regional population - this enrages me.

There is no excuse.

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is truly unlikely that Muslims are pulling the strings on any of this. It is a common tactic of the major world powers to keep certain parts of the world unstable. It is how they manage allies and demonize their enemy in the eyes of the world. It is simply bigger than it appears. We did it with the communists in the 50s, 60s and 70s. It is being done again for the same reasons. There are folks whose day job is civil unrest and they are capable and well paid. They are never obvious and will not likely ever be seen/connected to any of this. Most of us will devote too much energy to the little people who are the vicitims of this purly political struggle.

[ray23]

Looking at the postings above - Timothy McVeigh did not sadistically torture individuals for the pleasure of it.  The Tak Bai military was not methodically torturing individuals for enjoyment.  None of these people were pumping bullets into their own sister - and her husband - on a city street, to watch her die gurgling in front of you.

When ws the last time anyone saw anything about ANY other modern day group EXCEPT Muslims hanging the desecrated bodies of murdered foreigners off a bridge?  When was the last time anyone other than Muslims beheaded a screaming foreigner - not a soldier, but an aid worker - while videotaping it for their own glory?  The only comparisons I know of are the Nazi miscreants abusing Jewish concentration camp inmates, and the Imperial Japanese Army abusing Manchurian civilians.

The entire world has condemned the Nazi barbarians - and also the World War II Imperial Japanese Armed Forces.  And - that is the right thing to do.  And the Muslim barbarians of the early 21st Century should be viewed likewise - except I think the extemist Muslims are worse than the other two groups.

Let Islam clean its own house of these vermin - and then I will gladly befriend the Muslim world.   Bring the "Wolf Brigade" over from Iraq, and let then sort out the PULO extremists. 

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Condemn this

Look at this and remember this is not from world war two and those are not Muslims (thank god)

If this was done by a Muslim u all will blame Islam but they were Christians so they blame the person only

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

ISNT THIS SADISTICALLY TORTURE INDIVIDUALS FOR THE PLEASURE OF IT?

OR YOU WILL KEEP A BLIND EYE TO IT AS USUAL

talking about killing civilians here read this

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/145.shtml

and if you are intrested here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1308...rticle_continue

http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat/english/09...l-prisoners.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat/english/11...luja_221104.htm

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/30/1525237

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/608/608p28.htm

and if u want to see videos i will post them

You shouldn’t blame Islam for everything is done and we don’t blame your religion.

Actually the extremists always blame your religion and what I read here is that u do the same thing

Here this video is made by the Islamic extremists and they say what you guys say (KILL THEM ALL)

http://67.19.194.20/~terrori/cruisaders.wmv

they should put the extremists from both sides in one place and let them kill each other and leave us alone

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great idea wonder how we can them get there. I for one don't blame Islam, I blame the extremist who happen to be Islamic this time.

Someone came up with the idea to let the Islamic people settle this, truthfully probably the only ones who can. I doubt that the average Muslim is any happier then anyone else about this, since they are the ones really paying the price.

The problem that I can see how does the outsider identify who is the extremist and who is not, before the bad actions happen.

Zealots on both sides of the street are not a good thing, I hope something stops this before we have a world wide war.

[zaz]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great idea wonder how we can them get there. I for one don't blame Islam, I blame the extremist who happen to be Islamic this time.

Someone came up with the idea to let the Islamic people settle this, truthfully probably the only ones who can. I doubt that the average Muslim is any happier then anyone else about this, since they are the ones really paying the price.

The problem that I can see how does the outsider identify who is the extremist and who is not, before the bad actions happen.

Zealots on both sides of the street are not a good thing, I hope something stops this before we have a world wide war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True - the violence can and should probably be resolved within the Muslim community. I wonder, however that if anyone within the community stood up and asked for the violence to stop would they then be targetted and killed to shut them up and let the blood-mongerers continue on their rampage?

I am a Mr Nobody and a Muslim but I have love in my heart and I value my own life and the life of others - I am willing right now to stand up and try to help these people see eye to eye and understand each other - is there anyone else?

We can discuss this topic over and over til its death but who would be willing to get on the ground and initiate peace?

Edited September 29, 2005 by zaz

[seonai]

Admire your strength Zaz, but I am worn out reading the topic. It's scary to read what some people think on the forum.... and we are mainly a bunch of (probably) educated Westerners!

I agree about talking though. Surely with all the 'intelligence' forces in place here.... they can infiltrate the system - with Muslim moderators of course - and sort something out?

What did you guys think of the Pattani guy living in Sweden's comments?

[Boon Mee]

Before we state it's simply radical Muslims who are responsible for the terror perhaps a look at some reference material like where Rael Isaac reviews Andrew Bostom's essential Legacy of Jihad at Mideast Outpost ?

Here's an excerpt:

"The famous Jewish philosopher and physician Maimonides, often cited as an example of the fruitful symbiosis of Jewish and Islamic culture, had this to say of Arabs: "The Arabs have persecuted us severely and passed harmful and discriminatory legislation against us...Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase and hate us as much as they."

"This volume makes it clear that Islam is a religion whose mission is conquest (and eventual conversion) of the world. When one group of Muslims assumes responsibility for jihad, others are relieved of this duty. It is thus no wonder that radical Muslims believe they act on behalf of the entire umma. Bostom shows that even terror is an old and familiar tool: according to the book The Quranic Concept of War, "Once a condition of terror into the opponent's heart is obtained, hardly anything is left to be achieved...Terror is not a means of imposing decision upon the enemy; it is the decision we wish to impose upon him."

Sounds pretty frightening to me!

Edited September 29, 2005 by Boon Mee

[zaz]

Beliefs of one sort or another or excerpts from whatever publications in my opinion still cannot override basic human communications and understanding with each other. Everyone has the ability to compromise one way or another - it's just a question of who really wants peace and who doesn't.

[Fast Eddie]

The only way of solving this issue, worldwide, would appear to be for the Muslims to root out the terrorists in their midst and eradicate their subversive influence. Unfortunately it seems, in general, that they are standing in a state of denial, claiming that what is going on has nothing to do with them and their religion and is therefore not their responsibility. Most people appreciate that the majority of Muslims are abhored at what is going on, but the lack of cooperation in revealing the culprits to the relevant authorities is unacceptable.

[zaz]

The only way of solving this issue, worldwide, would appear to be for the Muslims to root out the terrorists in their midst and eradicate their subversive influence. Unfortunately it seems, in general, that they are standing in a state of denial, claiming that what is going on has nothing to do with them and their religion and is therefore not their responsibility. Most people appreciate that the majority of Muslims are abhored at what is going on, but the lack of cooperation in revealing the culprits to the relevant authorities is unacceptable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I asure you that routing out the terrorists is no easier for us normal Muslims than it is for anyone else. However, I think the Muslim authorities should educate their people the fact that the violent way is the wrong way and not the way of Islam as should other communities educate their people into realising that this is not really Islam.

There are a lot of posts here from people claiming Islam is inherently violent etc etc these are just defamatory and offensive remarks from people who don't care what they say to whom.

Edited September 29, 2005 by zaz

[Fast Eddie]

I asure you that routing out the terrorists is no easier for us normal Muslims than it is for anyone else. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to disagree. These people are residing in Muslim communities, which are being used as a breeding ground. I don't believe for a second that everyone in these communities is completely blind to the troublemakers.

[taxexile]

zaz , the koran was written hundreds of years ago , when times were very violent and the treatment and rights of women were different.

have you any thoughts on why 21st century extremist muslims e.g. the taliban type. wish to re instate that type of religious belief today.

even though other religions follow ancient scriptures , those scriptures seem to have been moderated and re-interpreted somewhat to make those religions compatible with life today.

is islam really incompatible with 21st century living ? i dont believe that for a minute.

most followers of islam wish to live in a 21st century world , how come the extreme minority have been allowed to have so much power , and want to impose their beliefs on a majority that dont want it.

when will the majority stand up and say enough is enough

Edited September 29, 2005 by taxexile

[Boon Mee]

Melanie Phillips’s Diary: Britain’s 200-year jihad.

"On my travels for the past few days, I have been reading a book which tells the story of a quite astonishing part of British history of which I was previously unaware. In ‘White Gold’, Giles Milton records the appalling details — gleaned,it appears, from a wealth of historical documents including diaries and letters — of a seaborne Islamic jihad against Britain which lasted for no less than two centuries.

From the early seventeenth to nineteenth centuries, thousands of British men women and children were kidnapped by Arab corsairs and sold into slavery in Morocco where they were kept in conditions of unspeakable barbarism. The astounding thing is that these British victims were not merely seized at sea where they ran the gauntlet of such pirates in places such as the Straits of Gibraltar. They were actually abducted from Britain itself."

And, here's the short version:

BANGKOK - Suspected Islamist insurgents avoided capture after torturing to death two Thai marines by beating and stabbing the bound-and-gagged victims behind a human shield of defiant Muslim women and children, horrifying the government and plunging southern Thailand into a fresh security crisis.

Throughout the stand-off, scores of shouting Muslim women dressed in traditional headscarves stood with children, blocking troops from gaining access to the hostages, and erecting banners that blamed the authorities, including one in Thai that read: "You are in fact the terrorists."

"If I could, I would drop napalm bombs all over that village," a distraught Captain Traikwan Krairiksh was quoted in the Bangkok Post as saying after he viewed the bodies of his former subordinates in a pool of blood. "But the fact is, I can never do that. We are soldiers. We must follow the law. We can only take revenge by using the law."

Link

[seonai]

Okay Boon Mee, what exactly is your point. You hate the Muslims right? I mean it's kind of dragging it on a bit with all your quotes, just come out and say it. And after you have said it, I will feel very sorry for you. Because, as we have all been trying to say on this forum.... the people who are causing trouble in the south are not your average Muslim living in Thailand. I think some of your points have reason for discussion but it's time to stand up and say what you are really thinking.... or are you some sort of 'planted' antagonist?

[taxexile]

well said seonai.

[Boon Mee]

Okay Boon Mee, what exactly is your point. You hate the Muslims right? I mean it's kind of dragging it on a bit with all your quotes, just come out and say it. And after you have said it, I will feel very sorry for you. Because, as we have all been trying to say on this forum.... the people who are causing trouble in the south are not your average Muslim living in Thailand. I think some of your points have reason for discussion but it's time to stand up and say what you are really thinking.... or are you some sort of 'planted' antagonist?

Very simplistic there, seonai. I'm simply bringing out historical facts - what you make of them is up to you. 'Tham jai khun'

[seonai]

thanks Tax, Boon Mee you sound like you have an axe to grind. You really do. I am asking you what is your beef with all this. Stand up and be counted. Who are you?

[zaz]

Okay Boon Mee, what exactly is your point. You hate the Muslims right? I mean it's kind of dragging it on a bit with all your quotes, just come out and say it. And after you have said it, I will feel very sorry for you. Because, as we have all been trying to say on this forum.... the people who are causing trouble in the south are not your average Muslim living in Thailand. I think some of your points have reason for discussion but it's time to stand up and say what you are really thinking.... or are you some sort of 'planted' antagonist?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very simplistic there, seonai. I'm simply bringing out historical facts - what you make of them is up to you. 'Tham jai khun'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No Boon Mee you are being VERY selective in what types of quotes you wish to post - and it's obvious to us all which side of the fence you stand. Do you really want add fuel to the fire? Why? What has historical crap got to do with resolving the problems of the present? And again it's all turning into a discussion about Islam again - how about we talk about a certain population of people in the South of Thailand who have a particular grievance and that the government and those people need to get involved in valueable discussions - that's all there is to it.

[seonai]

Go Zaz. Thank heavens for nice folks who can have a chat without getting all crazy. Cup of tea anyone?

[zaz]

Yes please, 2 sugars...

[Boon Mee]

Hey! Don't shoot the messenger, boys!

I was pointing out the history of Jihad over the centuries is all - what's the beef?

[zaz]

So do you think you know what Jihad actually is and what it stands for? How do you know what you are reading is correct (from a non-Muslim point of view).

Be careful what you use to educate yourself and be even more careful before you use you sources to establish your opinions publicly.

[Boon Mee]

So do you think you know what Jihad actually is and what it stands for? How do you know what you are reading is correct (from a non-Muslim point of view).

Be careful what you use to educate yourself and be even more careful before you use you sources to establish your opinions publicly.

Well, I guess if you want to suspect historical fact it's your perogitive but I didn't think we were into Histrorical Revisioism here.

When thousands of British men women and children were kidnapped by Arab corsairs and sold into slavery in Morocco where they were kept in conditions of unspeakable barbarism - is this like saying the Holocaust didn't happen?

[seonai]

Well Boon Mee you seem to be getting on your high horse about this more than most of us so I figured YOU had the beef??????? Come on it's nice that you are trying to placate us with history etc but this is not the same type of situation. The kettle's on.