Militants May Join Thailand Insurgency

[britmaveric]

Religion isnt the problem its the nutters who misinterpret it for their own ends.

[smb]

rich

this is your problem.you translate how u want.although i have been posting all day verses fromt he qur'an and im a muslim telling u that its not true...

u want to show like bin laden is the true muslim and all the other terrorists

i am an arab and i have read the qur'an and im a muslim telling u that they call themselves muslims but dont practise the real islam just like anyother religion but u dont seem to want to get it

Fast Eddie

it is really complicated

the mullas go to un educated,poor and sufring people and tell them that islam is this and islam is that and if u do this and that u will go to hevean.then they take them and feed them and give them money and help their families at times while thats they are feeding them with haterd.they use scripts from the qur'an to their use. and they know those uneducated guys wont read are try to corect what they were told.

something like that

and by the way sucide in islam is a great sin one of the greatest .it sends you to hellll straigt away

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The thing is, that this is your (and other peace loving muslims) interpretation of your religion. But you cannot say that the others are not Muslims. They just have a different interpretation of the religion than you do. You cannot just disown them that easily and say they are not really part of your religion. They are acting in Islam's name, whether you agree with what they do or not. It would appear that there are plenty of Muslims in the world that do believe in a violent interpretation of their religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

U should know that in any religion u live by rules. Now if someone came and said the Christ ordered me to kill all Indians for example and he translated scripts from the bible in the wrong way. Do u call him a Christian and does u blame Christianity for it?

i dont think you should

[richb2004]

Its almost funny, in a frustrating way, how we're trying to explain to you guys that your thoughts are so misconstrued and one-sided that I am simply amazed at how a person's mind can be so narrow-minded and heart be so closed.

Do you hate me because I am a Muslim and simply for that reason? If I said I wasn't a Muslim would you not hate me then?

I bet you anything, if we ever bumped into each other at a bar in Bangkok and got chatting like strangers do, we would get along fine, just fine.  Because when new people meet in new places they don't have labels on their foreheads reading "Muslim" or "Terrorist" or whatever.  People in general just get along ok don't they and they don't have any misconceptions about each other because it really doesn't even matter.

Guys if you open your minds a little your hearts will follow suit - it's nicer on this side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could be right. I find it hard to hate people, especially when I first meet them. I’m not sure if I hate Muslims or just Islam. I think its really just Islam. I have worked with many great Muslims. Provided we stay away from the subject of Islam everything is fine. If however I reveal to them that I am an Atheist they become quite enflamed and irate. When they reveal their beliefs and ideals it really is frightening. I’ve had guy that I considered intelligent and very good friends tell me that if I made a very derogatory comment about Allah that would have to beat me. What am I to think of Muslims if these are the better one that I have met?

I started a new job in an Islamic country recently. Everything was going great. I thought that the Muslims there were of a different ilk. I thought that they were open minded and accepting. I then made the mistake of revealing my lack of beliefs. Some of them now think I’m the devil. These are fairly well educated people.

Anyway I think we should abandon this discussion, it’s not getting any of us anywhere.

[smb]

Religion isnt the problem its the nutters who misinterpret it for their own ends.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i totally agree

[Nam Kao]

<<<<< Religion isnt the problem its the nutters who misinterpret it for their own ends.>>>

Wait Wait Wait - stop the presses! hold the phone! Whoa Silver

Yes the nutters are stirring the pot, BUT to say this religion is not the problem here

is incorrect - IN THIS CASE.

Why? Well in this case the religion IS THE QURAN, ITS WORDS ARE THE RELIGION

(ask any muslim about this).

The Quran gives the AOK for killing infidels (THATS US GUYS!!) and also states

a great reward will be waiting for them in heaven when they succeed.

Liberals wont understand this til the dull blade is sawing thru their neck bones

Edited September 30, 2005 by Nam Kao

[zaz]

As for not getting it, well I seriously did want to get it, which is why I am reading the Quran and why I spend so much time talking to Muslims and trying to find out what makes them tick.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll tell you what makes me tick rich, getting into my leathers on a sunny summer Sunday afternoon and going for a long blast on my Suzuki GSXR600 reaching some silly speeds and driving on my favourite roads, that makes me tick. Or perhaps spending 8 hours washing, waxing and polishing with my bare hands my BMW M3 on a Saturday morning and when it's finished taking a step back and looking and admiring just what a fabulous piece of motoring engineering it is. Or perhaps I like to sit on the beach when I'm in Koh Samui....just sit there....let time pass away like I have no care in the world and just soak up the wonderful atmosphere of the place. Or perhaps when I'm up for a bit of action I like to go to the bars/clubs on Soi Green Mango and socialise with the local and foreign people and just generally have a fantastic time. Or perhaps, being a true romantic, I really love to spend time with a lovely lady and be sincere and caring towards her, I'll take her out shopping, I'll take her to a nice restaurant, we'll eat and chat and generally have a good laugh and then to end the evening (if I'm lucky and she likes me) we will have a really good session in my hotel room - yeh that makes me tick alright!! There are many other things that make me tick but these are the finer ones at the moment. Do I fit the picture of a Muslim that you have tattooed in your mind.........??

[sriracha john]

Anyway I think we should abandon this discussion, it’s not getting any of us anywhere.

best post since post #7, way back on page 1.

[smb]

<<<<< Religion isnt the problem its the nutters who misinterpret it for their own ends.>>>

Wait Wait Wait - stop the presses! hold the phone! Whoa Silver

Yes the nutters are stirring the pot, BUT to say this religion is not the problem here

is incorrect - IN THIS CASE.

Why? Well in this case the religion IS THE QURAN, ITS WORDS ARE THE RELIGION

(ask any muslim about this).

The Quran gives the AOK for killing infidels (THATS US GUYS!!) and also states

a great reward will be waiting for them in heaven when they succeed.

 

Liberals wont understand this til the dull blade is sawing thru their neck bones

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

READ READ READ READ

DONT ASK. YOUR OLD ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO READ FOR YOURSELF

AT LEAST READ MY POSTS

[richb2004]

As for not getting it, well I seriously did want to get it, which is why I am reading the Quran and why I spend so much time talking to Muslims and trying to find out what makes them tick.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll tell you what makes me tick rich, getting into my leathers on a sunny summer Sunday afternoon and going for a long blast on my Suzuki GSXR600 reaching some silly speeds and driving on my favourite roads, that makes me tick. Or perhaps spending 8 hours washing, waxing and polishing with my bare hands my BMW M3 on a Saturday morning and when it's finished taking a step back and looking and admiring just what a fabulous piece of motoring engineering it is. Or perhaps I like to sit on the beach when I'm in Koh Samui....just sit there....let time pass away like I have no care in the world and just soak up the wonderful atmosphere of the place. Or perhaps when I'm up for a bit of action I like to go to the bars/clubs on Soi Green Mango and socialise with the local and foreign people and just generally have a fantastic time. Or perhaps, being a true romantic, I really love to spend time with a lovely lady and be sincere and caring towards her, I'll take her out shopping, I'll take her to a nice restaurant, we'll eat and chat and generally have a good laugh and then to end the evening (if I'm lucky and she likes me) we will have a really good session in my hotel room - yeh that makes me tick alright!! There are many other things that make me tick but these are the finer ones at the moment. Do I fit the picture of a Muslim that you have tattooed in your mind.........??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Definitely my lat posting now.

That’s all very good stuff. You lead a good life by the sounds of it. Good for you. Really.

If I said ‘that Mohammed was a pedophile and that Allah c***’, would you want to kill me?

[sriracha john]

<<<<< Religion isnt the problem its the nutters who misinterpret it for their own ends.>>>

Wait Wait Wait - stop the presses! hold the phone! Whoa Silver

Yes the nutters are stirring the pot, BUT to say this religion is not the problem here

is incorrect - IN THIS CASE.

Why? Well in this case the religion IS THE QURAN, ITS WORDS ARE THE RELIGION

(ask any muslim about this).

The Quran gives the AOK for killing infidels (THATS US GUYS!!) and also states

a great reward will be waiting for them in heaven when they succeed.

 

Liberals wont understand this til the dull blade is sawing thru their neck bones

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sorry nam kao... you're about 230 posts too late... the discussion has been had and concluded to the relief of all...

Edited September 30, 2005 by sriracha john

[Nam Kao]

I'll keep revealing the truth wherever i can

[smb]

I'll keep revealing the truth wherever i can

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why don’t u go to Iraq then and reveal all your hatred there???

Or it’s too dangerous for you

[zaz]

Definitely my lat posting now.

That’s all very good stuff. You lead a good life by the sounds of it. Good for you. Really.

If I said ‘that Mohammed was a pedophile and that Allah c***’, would you want to kill me?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh come on don't let it be your last posting..!! Well I guess it's been done to it's death once again!!

Yes one can say I am slightly more priviledged than others (and I honestly didn't want to highlight any of it but I did just to make a point).

Regarding your last line rich to be honest with you you can quite frankly say anything and everything you like - this is your choice and your freedom of speech and not I nor anyone else has the right to take this away from you let alone want to kill you! Absolutely would I heck want to kill you, they're just words. No-one has the authority to judge others since the Judge is upstairs and to Him will shall one day return (anyone gonna live forever?) and have to answer for what we have done in this lifetime...

[sriracha john]

I'll keep revealing the truth wherever i can

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

then by all means, make the next 230 posts by yourself...

[Nam Kao]

I am in a Pre-Iraq country now, i'll wait for the action to come to me

[zaz]

Honestly Nam Kao you really don't seem to be a peace with yourself you know, perhaps a visit to the local Mosque would do you well...

[thaibebop]

<<<<< Religion isnt the problem its the nutters who misinterpret it for their own ends.>>>

Wait Wait Wait - stop the presses! hold the phone! Whoa Silver

Yes the nutters are stirring the pot, BUT to say this religion is not the problem here

is incorrect - IN THIS CASE.

Why? Well in this case the religion IS THE QURAN, ITS WORDS ARE THE RELIGION

(ask any muslim about this).

The Quran gives the AOK for killing infidels (THATS US GUYS!!) and also states

a great reward will be waiting for them in heaven when they succeed.

 

Liberals wont understand this til the dull blade is sawing thru their neck bones

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And Christians used the Bible to support slavery in the USA. They used it to support Imperial doctrine as well. So, whats the difference?

It's simply time to put the radicals down, not Muslims, radicals. And they are everywhere and from every people. It's time the rest of us stand together and not allow any kind of radical get their way through violence. This goes for everybody, I feel.

I know Idealist, but I am still hoping.

Edited September 30, 2005 by thaibebop

[aughie]

I think we should be careful here. Not all the Muslim practices are covered in the Qur'an. There is Shar'iah Law.

"The first and primary element of Shar'iah Law is the Qur’an. It is the final arbitrator and there is no other appeal. The second element of Shar'iah Law is known as the Sunna, the teachings of the Prophet Mohammad not explicitly found in the Qur’an. The Sunna are a composite of the teachings of the Prophet and his works. The Sunna contain stories and anecdotes, called Hadith."

Don't get too caught up in the peaceful teachings of the Q'uran that smb wishes to convey. There's more to it.

Elements of Shar'iah Law

Islamic law is known as Shariah Law, and Shariah means the path to follow God's Law. Shar'iah Law is holistic or eclectic in its approach to guide the individual in most daily matters. Shariah Law controls, rules and regulates all public and private behaviour. It has regulations for personal hygiene, diet, sexual conduct, and elements of child rearing. It also prescribes specific rules for prayers, fasting, giving to the poor, and many other religious matters. Civil Law and Common Law primarily focus on public behaviour, but both do regulate some private matters.

No Separation of Church and State

To understand Islamic Law one must first understand the assumptions of Islam and the basic tenets of the religion. The meaning of the word 'Islam' is "submission or surrender to Allah's (God's) will." Therefore, Muslims must first and foremost obey and submit to Allah's will.

The most difficult part of Islamic Law for most westerners to grasp is that there is no separation of church and state. The religion of Islam and the government are one. Islamic Law is controlled, ruled and regulated by the Islamic religion. The theocracy controls all public and private matters. Government, law and religion are one. There are varying degrees of this concept in many nations, but all law, government and civil authority rests upon it and it is a part of Islamic religion.

There is no plea-bargaining or reducing the punishment for a Hadd crime. Hadd crimes have no minimum or maximum punishments attached to them.

No judge can change or reduce the punishment for these serious crimes. The Hadd crimes are:

1. Murder;

2. Apostasy from Islam

Apostasy from Islam: to leave the muslim faith.

"No believing man and no believing woman has a choice in their own affairs when Allãh and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)

On the issue of openly rejecting Islam, Islam cannot just stand aside and see one of its followers going astray. It would allow discussions to understand and solve the problems, but not allow its followers to lower themselves from the sublime status of "surrendering to the will of Allah-Islam" to the status of those "who have hearts but do not understand, ears but do not hear, and eyes but do not see."

Why does Islam not allow apostacy? Apostacy or irtidãd in Islam is equal to treason.

The punishment prescribed by the shari'a for apostacy is death.

But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (Murtad Fitri) he is to be killed even if he repents. His repentance might be accepted by Allãh but he still has to go through the punishment prescribed for his treason in this world.

This punishment is only applicable in case of apostacy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is suspended.

60 percent of UK Muslims told a Guardian poll they wanted sharia in the UK.

Here's a couple of links to a Daily Telegraph Poll of UK Muslims.

Telegraph YouGov Poll of UK Muslims

The Daily Telegraph Muslim Poll article

For those with 56k modems here is some results of the UK Muslim poll:

However, six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified. Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals

Moreover, the proportion of YouGov's respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried them out is considerably larger - 24 per cent.

For example, YouGov asked respondents how loyal they feel towards Britain. As the figures in the chart show, the great majority say they feel "very loyal" (46 per cent) or "fairly loyal" (33 per cent) but nearly one British Muslim in five, 18 per cent, feels little loyalty towards this country or none at all.

Edited October 1, 2005 by aughie

[smb]

Islam is a way of life. There is the Qur’an and the Sunna, from them we have the aqeeda and the shari'a.

And by them we learn how to pray how to treat humans animals and even plans.

We also learn from it how to fight and when to fight. Yes we learn everything from religion .

Edited October 1, 2005 by smb

[Galong]

Islam is a way of life. There is the Qur’an and the Sunna, from them we have the aqeeda and the shari'a.

And by them we learn how to pray how to treat humans animals and even plans.

We also learn from it how to fight and when to fight. Yes we learn everything from religion .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Organized religion is keeping mankind in the Dark Ages. I'm completely and utterly fed up with having to kiss superstitious morons asses. They (radical Allah freaks) aren't event trying to get along with the rest of the world. I'm normally rather liberal, but my views on how to deal with these idiots is slowly changing over to the "kill em all" camp.

Go meet your maker and let the freethinkers of the world live their lives.

Religion is superstition and not one book has anything any more enlightening than purely secular material.

I don't need an invisible means of support. I can live with the fact that when I die I feed worms.

[smb]

Islam is a way of life. There is the Qur’an and the Sunna, from them we have the aqeeda and the shari'a.

And by them we learn how to pray how to treat humans animals and even plans.

We also learn from it how to fight and when to fight. Yes we learn everything from religion .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Organized religion is keeping mankind in the Dark Ages. I'm completely and utterly fed up with having to kiss superstitious morons asses. They (radical Allah freaks) aren't event trying to get along with the rest of the world. I'm normally rather liberal, but my views on how to deal with these idiots is slowly changing over to the "kill em all" camp.

Go meet your maker and let the freethinkers of the world live their lives.

Religion is superstition and not one book has anything any more enlightening than purely secular material.

I don't need an invisible means of support. I can live with the fact that when I die I feed worms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can’t force u to believe what I believe in and u can’t force me to believe in yours.

I think that im right and u think that u are.

You always want to make people think that we all want to kill the rest of the world.and we never accept the other.

How do u explain Arab Christians and Jew(there are juws in YEMEN) living with us?????????

And in Iran the extremist Islamic country. There are people who worship the sun. How come they still are living and not killed?

Well just go to do it (kill them all). who is stopping u? Your friends are already in Iraq killing, go and join them.

[aughie]

My guess they are not killed because they don't draw attention to themselves and they avoid getting involved in politics.

I hope as you grow older there will be less need to seek answers from your religion. I hope you will have gained enough wisdom on your own.

[Pakboong]

I am going to give this one more try. It is just too important to give up on. What is described here is likely what we face in the south.

Title: In Kurdistan, Mossad is is an embarassment to Washington, by G.M. in Le Figaro International, 28 Sept 2005.

Resumed after the war which drove Saddam Hussein out of power in Baghdad in 2003, the secret security co-operation between Israelis and Iraqi Kurds was put to a crushing stop these last few months, under Washington's influence. After Jalal Talabani's (the Kurdish leader) nomination to the presidency of the Republic of Iraq in spring 2005, "a conflict of interest appeared between the two allies", estimates an expert in Middle East safety. "In order not to be criticized by the Shiites and the sunnites," he adds, "the new Head of the State Talabani could not allow the further development of a relationship that is condemned by the immense majority of the Iraqis. The Kurdish two-sided-game was stopped." Since then, some of the Israeli agents sare believed to have left the north of Iraq. Apparently, there would remain only one hundred of them, and Israeli businessmen practically only act through Kurdish or Jordanian intermediaries.

The conflict had however helped to tighten the partnership between Mossad, the Israeli secret service, and the Kurdish leadership, who combined their effort in thirty years struggle against the nationalist regime of Baghdad. Israel wanted to support the Kurds' federal aspirations and contain the Iranian influence over Iraq. "After the hostilities, the Israelis, anxious to see thousands of so-called Iranian pilgrims entering Iraq, tried in vain to convince the Americans to close the border between Iran and Iraq", explains Patrick Clawson, deputy manager of the American research center "The Washington Institute for Near East Policy". But the United States, willing to preserve their relationship with their Iraqi Shiites allies, refused to act.

The Israelis then decided to take matters in their own hand. In Erbil and Souleymanieh, Israeli instructors, often disguised as businessmen, were charged to improve the training of the pechmergas, the Kurdish militiamen. Beginning of 2004, approximately 1,200 agents either from Mossad or from the Israeli military intelligence operated in Kurdistan, according to French military estimates. Their mission was to set up sufficiently strong Kurdish commandos that could effectively counter the Shiites militia in the South of Iraq (that are more or less manipulated by Teheran), in particular that of the troublemaker Moqtada Al-Sadr. The Kurdish leaders returned the favor by making positive declarations. Last 6 June, Massoud Barzani, of the democratic Party of Kurdistan, estimated that a relation with Israel "is not a crime since the majority of the Arab countries maintain the relationship" with the Hebrew State.

Kurdistan' mountains have always been filled with spies. "The presence of many people in this area, autonomous since 1991, makes it possible to the Israelis to recruit agents which will infiltrate other organizations", declared the former boss of a European intelligence service. Today, the Kurdish priority to infiltrate the new Iraqi army, directed by one of their own, serves the Israeli interests. Through its alliance with the Irqai Kurds, the Hebrew State has reinforced its monitoring on Iran and Syria, its two great enemies in the Middle East. But Israeli actions ended up disturbing Washington. "We've received strong pressure from Washington to stop our operations with the Kurds", said an Israeli sent to Erbil under cover of being a student. "the Americans do not agree any more with the Israeli plans", he affirms. Washington does not seem to tolerate anymore this presence that threathens its interests.

[smb]

Islam is a way of life. There is the Qur’an and the Sunna, from them we have the aqeeda and the shari'a.

And by them we learn how to pray how to treat humans animals and even plans.

We also learn from it how to fight and when to fight. Yes we learn everything from religion .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Organized religion is keeping mankind in the Dark Ages.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Islam! - The Modern Alternative

Invitation to Islam, Issue 2, July 1997

Some people think that to live an Islamic life is "restrictive". Islam however, was revealed as a balanced way of living.

Allah (The Most High) created all the humans with what is called 'A Fitrah' (a natural state/desire) [1].

Islam recognises that within this Fitrah there are motivations that influence a man's role on earth e.g. a desire for good food and drink, to have a home, a desire for love and sex, to protect and be protected and to be successful and strong. Without some form of control and limit, all of these legitimate motives could prove very dangerous.

So what constitutes the perfect control for the Fitrah? It must be a method that provides an organised yet practical demonstration of how to balance all these natural human desires. It cannot be something that goes against the Fitrah, by placing on it extra burdens. Likewise, it cannot be something that allows the human desires to run wild without any form of control.

Islam is the perfect control for the Fitrah. It provides a divine method that elevates man above animals and the rest of creation.

Limited Wisdom

Humans lack perfect knowledge as well as perfect wisdom. No matter how hard we try, we will never attain the perfect way of life by our own thinking and interpretation. This is the reason why Allaah being the Most Wise, sent us the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad (SAW)[2], to show us this practical and organised way of life.

Allaah, being Perfect, in His Wisdom and Knowledge, perfected a complete way of life for us. He has set His limitations and rules, all of which are beneficial to mankind, and therefore, do not need changing:

"These are the limits (set) by Allaah, so do not approach them"

(Surah al-Baqarah 2:1871)

"These are the limits set by Allaah, so do not transgress them"

(Surah al-Baqarah 2:229)

This is why Islam does not allow celibacy, because it is against the Fitrah, i.e., the desire for sex. Celibacy goes beyond the limits required by humans, and is something that cannot be fulfilled because humans are designed to procreate. As humans we are not expected to fast every single day for the rest of our lives (for most 30 days of the year provides an up-hill struggle). It is also from ignorance to say that 'I shall not sleep during the night, but rather I shall pray!' [3] Humans have not been created by Allah to live life in such a manner. There is a balance which must be observed.

The following incident describes the Islamic stance towards such behaviour, Anas reported that some of the Companions of Allaah's Messenger (SAW) used to say: "I will not marry women"; someone else said: "I will not eat meat"; and someone else said: "I will not lie down in bed". (On hearing this): The Prophet (SAW) praised Allaah, and glorified Him and said: "what has happened to these people that they say so and so, whereas I observe prayer and I sleep too. I observe fast and I break my fast; I marry women also. And he who turns away from my Sunnah (i.e., my example or lifestyle), he has no relation with me" [Narrated in Saheeh Muslim vol. 2. p703. no. 32361].

Islam on the other hand, does not allow the person to surrender themselves to lust and desire, as in contemporary 'civilisation'. Islam recognises the love a man has for women, children, gold, silver, and other possessions. But it provides a limit for the amount of this worldly pleasure which we require, and reminds us of the life in the hereafter.

"Beautified for men is the love of things they desire: Women, Children, much of gold and silver (wealth), branded beautiful horses, cattle and well-tilled land. This is the pleasure of the present world's life, but Allaah has the excellent return (Paradise)"

(Surah Aali-Imraan 3:141)

The inclinations and desires of the Fitrah are not to become the objective in life. Rather they are to be taken in a stabilised manner. The way to deal with them is real and Allaah (The Most High) has given us the detailed descriptions of a levelled approach. This levelled approach gives mankind the perfectly balanced pleasure in this worldly life. The method of maintaining a well-balanced life is not an endurance test to see who lasts the longest. Allah has revealed Islam, to show us how to attain this balance in a real manner. Life is not a torturous spiritual test, where you are ordered to Iive in mountains and trees. Fasting all year round is not obligatory. Marriage is permissible and you do not have to beat yourself senseless to purify your soul! Rather as Muslims, we must try to follow the Prophet and his balanced teachings of life and living. As Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (saw), you have a good example to follow.."

(Surah Al-Ahzab 33:21)

Restrictive Rules

The use of the word "restrictive" often comes from those who think they live a "free- life". But the fact of the matter is that, wherever you go you will find rules and regulations. For example, in the workplace, in colleges and universities and more obviously on the roads, i.e. the highway and green cross codes. Wherever you are, there are rules and regulations.

Islam forbids us to follow many of the rules which are held by western culture and subcultures. Yet people in the west are more than willing to obey them, because they believe that these rules will protect them. How wrong they are! Rave subculture is a classical example of this. Informal dance floor rules dictate to us ". . . . to drink lots of water, have frequent breaks and don't take too many pills in one go!" Despite these "recommendations", young people are still dying [4].

Western society is obsessed with 'safe sex', in order to 'prevent the risk of catching AIDS'. Despite the wide availability of contraceptives, AIDS is still on the increase, and people are dropping like flies from this killer epidemic.

Do we think of these rules as being restrictive? If anything you would expect them to bring about a sense of control and order, as well as increasing the pleasure. Without realising, people are ready and willing to accept many man-made rules. Rules that are invented by one group of people and to be obeyed by the rest of society. These rules are not perfect because man is imperfect, yet people accept them and hope and believe that they will benefit from them.

A Better Offer!

So when the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth is offering a reward which is high, and the Benefit is eternal, shouldn't we at least see what's on offer?

"You desire the good of this world, but Allaah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allaah is Almighty, All Wise"

(Surah Al-Anfal 8:67)

". . . in a lofty Paradise. Therein will be a running spring. Therein will be thrones raised high. And cups set at hand. And cushions set in rows. And rich carpets (all) spread out"

(Surah Al-Ghaashiyah 88:10-16)

This worldly life has many good things in it. Things that Allah has created for us to utilise. But the reality is all of these luxuries and benefits of the world will come to an end. For example, a person's good looks may do them many favours during their youth, but will it hold them on good ground when they are 60. Such is the reality of old age.

Likewise with wealth. Islam allows you to gain wealth as long as you do not oppress other people, and transgress the limits set by Allaah (The Most High). An example of this is making people pay back more money than they actually borrow, through usury or interest payments.

However wealth can not benefit you when you die, as it only passes on to your family as inheritance. Such is the civility of modem society, that many people are even killed, just so that inheritance can be gained sooner rather then later!!

Thus, we should see ourselves as travellers on a journey. A traveller is one who is constantly on the move. He will only take essential provisions, and not all his life's possessions. Likewise, a person must realise that Allah did not design the luxuries of this world to last forever. They only exist to aid our worship of Allah, which will take us to the journey's end, the hereafter. Being human, we must one-day die, and our worldly benefits and luxuries will also perish. The true wealth is indeed with Allah in the next-life. As Allah says:

"Seeking the perishable goods of the worldly life. There are much more profits and booties with Allah"

(Surah An-Nisa 4:94)

Man-made restrictions exist in all aspects of western society. Industry, travel and leisure, are just a few of the sectors which are dominated by human restrictions. Humans automatically assume that these restrictions are there to protect them. In part this may be true, but what about the restrictions set by Allah which can save the whole of man-kind? Such restrictions come from the One Who is Perfect, and not man, who is imperfect! The so-called 'freedom' of 'modern civilisation', is one which is defined for you, by another human. We are often told what is 'politically correct' and what is not. We are told that this is what everybody will be wearing this Summer, and that this is the film to watch. Those are the new Hollywood stars to emerge. You shouldn't be seen 'dead' in this dress and you should paint your finger-nails this colour. The list is endless. All of this is then redefined to fit in with the next wave of fashion trends.

Those who do not conform are labelled, bigamist, narrow-minded, backward, out-dated and so on.

Modem civilisation allows you so much freedom, that you can even waiver the law if you are 'well connected'. Laws are often defined by a small group of people, with everyone else conforming to what they consider right and wrong. What kind of justice is this? This would be more acceptable to those who accept the concept of man being divine. A concept where men decide what is moral and immoral even if it contradicts what God has already laid out for us. God has no part to play in such a civilisation, because man has adopted the role of god for himself. History bears witness to this as it was the way of the civilisations before the advent of the prophet Muhammad (SAW), as Allah says:

"They (Jews & Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah)"

(Surah 9:31)

The true freedom of man is found in a civilisation that has a divine value system. A civilisation in which man submits to his Creator alone. A civilisation that reacts with the life of this world and links it to the Day of Judgement. On that Day, everyone will be held accountable in front of ALLAH, the Creator and The True Master of the universe.

The Purpose

Allaah created man and man belongs to Him. Allah decreed that one day man shall die and return to Him. The world is just a temporary period. We are born, we live in this world and then we die.

So while we are on this earth Allaah has given us the instruction manual to shape our lives according to what He has decreed. This is the meaning of worship. It requires absolute obedience, humility and love for Allaah, the way He has prescribed it.

We cannot love Allaah the way we want to, especially if we do not know what Allaah loves or hates in the first place.

So through Allaah's Perfect Wisdom and Infinite Knowledge, He sent us the Qur'aan and the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), and told us how this love is to be expressed:

"Say (O Muhammad (SAW) to mankind): If you really love Allaah then follow me (i.e. the Prophet (saw), and accept that Allaah is the one truly deserving of worship, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah). Allaah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allaah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful"

(Surah Aali-Imraan 3:31)

The Problem with Human Law

Humans by themselves cannot determine what is good and bad for each other for all of the time.

Man-made laws are often defined by a person's personal motives, emotions, limited intellect, beliefs and prejudices. Thus, they are designed with these built-in flaws. This is why human law has so many loop-holes and deficiencies. It is always requiring change, modification and re-modification, time after time!

So when Allaah (The Most High) revealed the Qur'an and the example of the Prophet (SAW), all the details about good and bad, or right and wrong, were not left for the limited nature of mankind to define for themselves. Allaah (The Most High) says:

"And We have sent down to you the Book (Qur'an) as an EXPLANATION of EVERYTHING and a GUIDANCE, a Mercy and glad tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allaah as Muslims)"

(Surah An-Nahl 16:89)

So What is Islam saying?

The message of Islam fits the Fitrah of man. Allaah (The Most Wise) created man in the best form. He gave his Fitrah the ability to believe in the unseen. Thus, man's soul and its horizons are broader and more open than that of the rest of creation - like the animals, bird's and insects. In nature we can see the signs of Allah:

"Do they not look at the camels, and how they were created? And at the heavens, how it is raised? And at the mountains, how they are rooted and fixed firm? And at the earth, how it is spread out?"

(Surah Al-Ghaashiyah 88:17-20)

In ourselves we can see Allah's signs through the diversity of our languages, colours and nationalities.

"O mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and have made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another"

(Surah Al-Hujuraat 49:13)

Having been told this, we must now recognise the Perfect way our Creator has chosen for us to follow, which is:

"Indeed, in the Messenger (Muhammad [saw]), you have a good example to follow"

(Surah Al-Ahzab 33:21)

We have been commanded to worship Allah alone without partners. We must recognise and understand that He is the Only True God who deserves to be worshipped;

"So know (Muhammad [saw]), that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah"

(Surah Muhammad 47:19)

To help us do this, Allaah (The Most High) sent the Prophet Muhammed (SAW), to deliver and explain the Final Message of Islam, and to help us recognise and worship our Lord in the best manner. We have been told to form our lives' according to this Message, by following and imitating the Final Messenger who is our only guide to worshipping our Lord: Allah.

This is what is meant when we say: Laa-illaa-ha il-Allaah, wa Muhammadur Rasool-Allah. "There is no true God worthy of worship except Allaah, and Muhammad is the Final Messenger of Allaah"

Footnotes

1 This can be explained as, the inborn or innate nature of mankind to recognise the Truth about the Creator [Allah]; that he is the only one who truly and sincerely deserves to be worshipped.

2 Sallallahu Alayhi Wassallam, i.e. The peace and Blessings Of Allah Be upon him (the Prophet). We as Muslims have been commanded to say this every time the Prophet's name is mentioned. This is done as a mark of respect and the honour which he deserves.

3 This is not to say that prayer at night is not important, but if you don't get enough sleep how are you going to fulfil your other obligations, e.g. going to work in order to provide for your family. The times of praying at night have been explained by the Prophet (SAW) as being in the last 3rd of the night before the Fajr prayer.

4 The death of the teenager Leah Betts a few years ago [in England], has shown how such rules work to destroy the very society which forms them.

_________________

"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in the best manners possible" (Sura Al-Nahl 16, Ayah 125)

[zxray]

I say we do them all a favor, and send them all to paradise!

[Galong]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can’t force u to believe what I believe in and u can’t force me to believe in yours.

I think that im right and u think that u are.

You always want to make people think that we all want to kill the rest of the world.and we never accept the other.

How do u explain Arab Christians and Jew(there are juws in YEMEN) living with us?????????

And in Iran the extremist Islamic country. There are people who worship the sun. How come they still are living and not killed?

Well just go to do it (kill them all). who is stopping u? Your friends are already in Iraq killing, go and join them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"You always want to make people think that we all want to kill the rest of the world.and we never accept the other."

Well, if you look at the history of ORGANIZED religion you'll find out that Christianity was spread by fear and murder, not love. The Middle East is like a scene out of a horror movie... thanks to religious zealots.

"How do u explain Arab Christians and Jew(there are juws in YEMEN) living with us?????????"

Huh? This is some sort of proof for you or something? OK, I'll turn part of my brain off and try to explain things at a level your might be able to understand. First of all, popularity has nothing to do with reality. Just because a zillion people believe something, doesn't mean it suddenly turned from fable to reality.

Second, as I don't know any individual Arabs who converted to Christianity, I couldn't begin to tell you why they converted.

Third, stupid people are an easy sell. It seems that a lot of people can't handle the most likely reality that when you die, you're gone forever.

"And in Iran the extremist Islamic country. There are people who worship the sun. How come they still are living and not killed?"

Because they don't have oil obviously! Wait a while and a religious leader will likely label them witches and kill them... you know, like the Christians did when they were spreading God's love.

"Well just go to do it (kill them all). who is stopping u? Your friends are already in Iraq killing, go and join them."

Oh, so anyone who isn't religious is automatically someone who doesn't mind killing people! How dare you. Assuming that you are a Christian (you sound like one), followers of your faith are the killers. Why don't you go over and kill someone.

Unlike religious idiots, I don't believe in nor support war. I am extremely opposed to what the US is doing in Iraq and every other country in the world. George W is the biggest moron in the history of US politics in my opinion and should be tried as a war criminal. But we all know who really runs the show... corporate America.

The easiest way to get citizens to follow a war is to use religion. We didn't find weapons of mass destruction (because they're all in the US of A), so we turned to human rights. Give me a break, the US has one of the worst human rights records of any country in the world.

But still, Bush talks about God and glory as if any reasonably compassionate God would support the attrocities that his troops are commiting in a 3rd World country.

Education is the way to improve the fate of humankind. Religion is a hinderance to education and it always has been. Read about the history of the Bible if you want a real eye-opener... and not some interpretation by some Jesus freak.

[smb]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can’t force u to believe what I believe in and u can’t force me to believe in yours.

I think that im right and u think that u are.

You always want to make people think that we all want to kill the rest of the world.and we never accept the other.

How do u explain Arab Christians and Jew(there are juws in YEMEN) living with us?????????

And in Iran the extremist Islamic country. There are people who worship the sun. How come they still are living and not killed?

Well just go to do it (kill them all). who is stopping u? Your friends are already in Iraq killing, go and join them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"You always want to make people think that we all want to kill the rest of the world.and we never accept the other."

Well, if you look at the history of ORGANIZED religion you'll find out that Christianity was spread by fear and murder, not love. The Middle East is like a scene out of a horror movie... thanks to religious zealots.

"How do u explain Arab Christians and Jew(there are juws in YEMEN) living with us?????????"

Huh? This is some sort of proof for you or something? OK, I'll turn part of my brain off and try to explain things at a level your might be able to understand. First of all, popularity has nothing to do with reality. Just because a zillion people believe something, doesn't mean it suddenly turned from fable to reality.

Second, as I don't know any individual Arabs who converted to Christianity, I couldn't begin to tell you why they converted.

Third, stupid people are an easy sell. It seems that a lot of people can't handle the most likely reality that when you die, you're gone forever.

"And in Iran the extremist Islamic country. There are people who worship the sun. How come they still are living and not killed?"

Because they don't have oil obviously! Wait a while and a religious leader will likely label them witches and kill them... you know, like the Christians did when they were spreading God's love.

"Well just go to do it (kill them all). who is stopping u? Your friends are already in Iraq killing, go and join them."

Oh, so anyone who isn't religious is automatically someone who doesn't mind killing people! How dare you. Assuming that you are a Christian (you sound like one), followers of your faith are the killers. Why don't you go over and kill someone.

Unlike religious idiots, I don't believe in nor support war. I am extremely opposed to what the US is doing in Iraq and every other country in the world. George W is the biggest moron in the history of US politics in my opinion and should be tried as a war criminal. But we all know who really runs the show... corporate America.

The easiest way to get citizens to follow a war is to use religion. We didn't find weapons of mass destruction (because they're all in the US of A), so we turned to human rights. Give me a break, the US has one of the worst human rights records of any country in the world.

But still, Bush talks about God and glory as if any reasonably compassionate God would support the attrocities that his troops are commiting in a 3rd World country.

Education is the way to improve the fate of humankind. Religion is a hinderance to education and it always has been. Read about the history of the Bible if you want a real eye-opener... and not some interpretation by some Jesus freak.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

from what I see is that u have some mixed up realities and some false conclusion.

I also see some good points in what u posted.

First of all the Arab Christians have been Christians all their lifes the weren’t converted from Islam or any other religion and that is with the Arab Jews.

About the sun worshipers. What u said is all nonscence.you don’t know the futcher and they have been there even before Islam and they are still living with no harm.

i am a muslim not a Christian by the way

sound to me you are an ATHEIST

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

Local Concept Of God

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details: http://www.interactiveislam.com/html/article.php?sid=20)

Quran And Modern Science

The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN:

for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?

THEORY OF PROBABILITY

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE

Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

this is A debate between a Muslim and an atheist i think it might intrest u

http://www.examinethetruth.com/ahmed-giron.htm

[ray23]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can’t force u to believe what I believe in and u can’t force me to believe in yours.

I think that im right and u think that u are.

You always want to make people think that we all want to kill the rest of the world.and we never accept the other.

How do u explain Arab Christians and Jew(there are juws in YEMEN) living with us?????????

And in Iran the extremist Islamic country. There are people who worship the sun. How come they still are living and not killed?

Well just go to do it (kill them all). who is stopping u? Your friends are already in Iraq killing, go and join them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"You always want to make people think that we all want to kill the rest of the world.and we never accept the other."

Well, if you look at the history of ORGANIZED religion you'll find out that Christianity was spread by fear and murder, not love. The Middle East is like a scene out of a horror movie... thanks to religious zealots.

"How do u explain Arab Christians and Jew(there are juws in YEMEN) living with us?????????"

Huh? This is some sort of proof for you or something? OK, I'll turn part of my brain off and try to explain things at a level your might be able to understand. First of all, popularity has nothing to do with reality. Just because a zillion people believe something, doesn't mean it suddenly turned from fable to reality.

Second, as I don't know any individual Arabs who converted to Christianity, I couldn't begin to tell you why they converted.

Third, stupid people are an easy sell. It seems that a lot of people can't handle the most likely reality that when you die, you're gone forever.

"And in Iran the extremist Islamic country. There are people who worship the sun. How come they still are living and not killed?"

Because they don't have oil obviously! Wait a while and a religious leader will likely label them witches and kill them... you know, like the Christians did when they were spreading God's love.

"Well just go to do it (kill them all). who is stopping u? Your friends are already in Iraq killing, go and join them."

Oh, so anyone who isn't religious is automatically someone who doesn't mind killing people! How dare you. Assuming that you are a Christian (you sound like one), followers of your faith are the killers. Why don't you go over and kill someone.

Unlike religious idiots, I don't believe in nor support war. I am extremely opposed to what the US is doing in Iraq and every other country in the world. George W is the biggest moron in the history of US politics in my opinion and should be tried as a war criminal. But we all know who really runs the show... corporate America.

The easiest way to get citizens to follow a war is to use religion. We didn't find weapons of mass destruction (because they're all in the US of A), so we turned to human rights. Give me a break, the US has one of the worst human rights records of any country in the world.

But still, Bush talks about God and glory as if any reasonably compassionate God would support the attrocities that his troops are commiting in a 3rd World country.

Education is the way to improve the fate of humankind. Religion is a hinderance to education and it always has been. Read about the history of the Bible if you want a real eye-opener... and not some interpretation by some Jesus freak.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

from what I see is that u have some mixed up realities and some false conclusion.

I also see some good points in what u posted.

First of all the Arab Christians have been Christians all their lifes the weren’t converted from Islam or any other religion and that is with the Arab Jews.

About the sun worshipers. What u said is all nonscence.you don’t know the futcher and they have been there even before Islam and they are still living with no harm.

i am a muslim not a Christian by the way

sound to me you are an ATHEIST

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

Local Concept Of God

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details: http://www.interactiveislam.com/html/article.php?sid=20)

Quran And Modern Science

The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN:

for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?

THEORY OF PROBABILITY

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE

Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

this is A debate between a Muslim and an atheist i think it might intrest u

http://www.examinethetruth.com/ahmed-giron.htm

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Politics and realigion boy two tough ones. Congradulations I believe you guys have found the answer agree to disagree and don't shoot anybody. That would work.

[OlRedEyes]

I wonder... the lights in the sky... are they Gods?

Religions, of all kinds, have been shoved down my throat since birth, and I'm sick off it.

Like another poster said, religions have been the root of most major problems and billions of deaths throughout history.

We are taught to pussyfoot around these deluded, unthinking sheep, of all the idiotic religions, and must accept the crap they cause in our lives without upsetting them. They, on the other hand, may dominate our social value systems, and force their idiotic primitive beliefs in God, Jesus, Allah, Jaweh and Pooh on us with wild abandon.

Greed and religion are the root off all evil.

[zaz]

Greed and religion are the root off all evil.

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Greed yes, religion not really. Over and over again many posters bring the problem down to religion and consistently fail to recognise the fact that it's when people lose their grip on what their religion is actually teaching them and continue to believe what they are doing is correct - that's when it all f*cks up.

e.g. Religion is a car. If someone is not driving this car properly what's going to happen? It's going to crash into another car - do you blame the car or the driver?

It's the drivers fault if he's not paying attention or driving properly. The car is perfectly functional (because of course its religion...) so you can't blame technical failure etc.

Guys listen, at the end of the day let's not get all worked up about the whole issue right? We are discussing this to UNDERSTAND each other - this is what the world needs right now - discussions to understand one anothers arguments. I hope some of you have understood what smb or I or any of the others have tried to communicate to you about Muslims/Islam, perhaps you might have found some of the info useful, but please don't blank it out as complete rubbish otherwise we're not getting anywhere. I have read comments from "the other side" and tried to understand what is being said. I can understand the points that are being made but at the same time I feel some of you guys are being misled by either your experiences and/or your one-sided way of thinking.

Hey most of the time I don't even feel as if I have any right to argue the Islamic side because I'm far far from being a good Muslim and I'm almost ashamed about it. At the same time I attach myself to Islam which is why I guess I still feel obliged to make the case.

In any case I think there is one thing we can all agree on - we are all human beings are we not? Forget religion, forget colour/race, forget where we come from take our skins off and we all look the same right? We live on this world together whether we like it or not. It's just up to us how we decide to live - we can have hatred in our hearts and be miserable or we can have love and just try to get on.

Live and let live - I don't mind what religion my friends are it's their choice and they will still be my friends and I will still love them.