Interpretation Of An Insult By A Father To A Daughter ?

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV Chiang Rai Friends,

Usually hang out on the Chiang Mai forum, but thought, since this interesting incident happened near Chiang Rai, it would be good to seek wisdom and education here, first.

A friend in the US, reports that his Thai wife reports an incident (among her close relatives) in which a father was so disgusted with his Thai daughter's behavior that he bent down and lowered his head, either touching her feet, or putting his head very near her feet, while "wishing her well."

This is now a problem in the mind of the daughter as she believes her father has "cursed" her, and she believes this is the reason she's having so many problems in life, now.

As an eleven-year veteran of living in LOS (always in Chiang Mai), this seems most unusual to me. Clearly many Thai people will "wai to the ground" three times in the standard ritual of homage in a Wat, and, clearly, pointing with the feet, or kicking, or use of a shoe in an aggressive way would be very insulting, profane, in Thailand, but never heard of such an "inversion" or "parody" of behavior that would normally be associated with the cultural "vocabulary" of "respect," intended as disrespect, or, even, curse, or disownment (?).

Once lived in India for a year, where "taboos" around feet are even more extreme, and the principle of "inversion of the profane into the sacred" (what the scholar, Richard Lannoy, termed "the antipodes of experience") can be readily seen in the fervor with which some Hindus will touch, or kiss the feet, of those considered, "holy," or, as renunciates, seen as "charged up" with some "spiritual energy" (shakti). And in India, as well as the Arab world, hitting someone with your shoe is about as mortal an insult as possible.

But I've never heard of a Thai father bringing his head down near, or touching, a child's feet, and saying something that could be interpreted as either blessing, or well-wishing, as a deliberate sign of rejection or dis-respect.

Appreciate your thoughts !

A guess, for what it's worth, is that if the daugher wishes to effect "relationship repair" here, the answer is to be found in other traditional behavior: such as a "kathin" ceremony, or a visit to a "Mor Phii" or "Mor Doo" ?

thanks, ~o:37;

Edited April 14, 2011 by orang37

[sunholidaysun1]

In Chinese Thai tradition it is expected that you Wai the family at their feet when you marry into the family .

It is great gesture of respect.

As for a Thai father dropping to his daughters feet in disgust or not , I find it hard to believe a Thai Man would ever do that, but it could be his way of telling his daughter of his total disrespect for her . This is a first for me in my years here, to hear of this .

I hope someone else knows of this on the forum , I would like to know also .

[orang37]

In Chinese Thai tradition it is expected that you Wai the family at their feet when you marry into the family .

It is great gesture of respect.

As for a Thai father dropping to his daughters feet in disgust or not , I find it hard to believe a Thai Man would ever do that, but it could be his way of telling his daughter of his total disrespect for her . This is a first for me in my years here, to hear of this .

I hope someone else knows of this on the forum , I would like to know also .

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun SunHolidaySun1,

Thanks for your response: in this case the family is definitely not Chinese-Thai: they are rather dark-skinned, and their heritage is farming, for many generations in the Chiang Rai outside-Muang area. Which, of course, given the incredible scrambling of Tai Lue, Tai Yai, Shan, Yunnanese, Laos, etc., over a millineum of near constant warfare in which raiding for population was standard procedure, and the likelihood of some inter-marriage with Burmese during the 200 years Lanna, in general, was a Burmese colony, means they are probably just as much a genetic mix as other northern Thais: but the "Chinese-Thai" element (physically, or in the presence of what you might call the "Confucian work ethic") we did not observe in this extended family, as we encountered them in the context of our American friend's wedding: of course that's a very subjective opinion based on limited data.

We've done some reading in some of the best studies (available in English) on northern Thai ethnography: such as Richard B. Davis' "Muang Metaphysics," based on fieldwork in Nan (out of print, now), and, Premchit and Dore's work (also out of print), etc., but, never, unfortunately, came across any specifically northern Thai customs of in-the-family "face-breaking:" which of course does not imply they do not exist, and are not documented somewhere in English in the vast depths of the Siam Society's journals or library.

best, ~o:37;

Edited April 14, 2011 by orang37

[harrry]

Maybe it is just a sarcastic way of reminding the girl who should be respected. A parody of the way a Thai shows respect to someone of higher status. In this case it should be she who shows him respect.

[lannarebirth]

Hi Khun Orang

Here's my wife's take and to warn you she tends to assume things not in evidence.

She doesn't see it as an insult but the last gasp of a father who is at the end of his tether. An "I've had enough" gesture by someone who doesn't wish to insult his daughter nor physically hit her. Something we might consider a "cutting of the cord" gesture as to say "you're on your own now, as I've done all I can". As I say my wife likes to make assumptions and she's already put hersef in the shoes of this man and she feels sorry for him. She also says she can well understand how the daughter may see it as a curse but she doesn't believe that was the intention at all. FWIW

Edited April 14, 2011 by lannarebirth

[BuckarooBanzai]

Hi Khun Orang

Here's my wife's take and to warn you she tends to assume things not in evidence.

She doesn't see it as an insult but the last gasp of a father who is at the end of his tether. An "I've had enough" gesture by someone who doesn't wish to insult his daughter nor physically hit her. Something we might consider a "cutting of the cord" gesture as to say "you're on your own now, as I've done all I can". As I say my wife likes to make assumptions and she's already put hersef in the shoes of this man and she feels sorry for him. She also says she can well understand how the daughter may see it as a curse but she doesn't believe that was the intention at all. FWIW

I thought the exact same thing as your wife but unless someone finds out from the father why he did this very abnormal thing we will never know.

[toybits]

Agree with Harry. It was a sarcastic way of reminding her daughter to show a little more respect.

[cmjantje]

Hi Khun Orang

Here's my wife's take and to warn you she tends to assume things not in evidence.

She doesn't see it as an insult but the last gasp of a father who is at the end of his tether. An "I've had enough" gesture by someone who doesn't wish to insult his daughter nor physically hit her. Something we might consider a "cutting of the cord" gesture as to say "you're on your own now, as I've done all I can". As I say my wife likes to make assumptions and she's already put hersef in the shoes of this man and she feels sorry for him. She also says she can well understand how the daughter may see it as a curse but she doesn't believe that was the intention at all. FWIW

Agree Lannabirth.

I spoke about this with my wife who has been brought up very conservative. She told me the father does not know anymore What to do and the gesture means: I forgive you, please come back as a good girl.

He does Not want to argue or hit his daughter... Very simple... he is the father we all want to have. Loving and modest but clear.

Edited April 16, 2011 by cmjantje

[kandahar]

Hi Khun Orang

Here's my wife's take and to warn you she tends to assume things not in evidence.

She doesn't see it as an insult but the last gasp of a father who is at the end of his tether. An "I've had enough" gesture by someone who doesn't wish to insult his daughter nor physically hit her. Something we might consider a "cutting of the cord" gesture as to say "you're on your own now, as I've done all I can". As I say my wife likes to make assumptions and she's already put hersef in the shoes of this man and she feels sorry for him. She also says she can well understand how the daughter may see it as a curse but she doesn't believe that was the intention at all. FWIW

Agree Lannabirth.

I spoke about this with my wife who has been brought up very conservative. She told me the father does not know anymore What to do and the gesture means: I forgive you, please come back as a good girl.

He does Not want to argue or hit his daughter... Very simple... he is the father we all want to have. Loving and modest but clear.

I can assure you that you're not speaking for "we all".

In this tired old world, lots of youth benefit only from a "freight train" approach to maintaining order and respect in a household and/or family. One mold doesn't fit all.

[Paul888]

I can assure you that you're not speaking for "we all".

In this tired old world, lots of youth benefit only from a "freight train" approach to maintaining order and respect in a household and/or family. One mold doesn't fit all.

I agree. I would not like to have a father who gave up on me, nor would I like to be a father that gave up on a child who clearly needed my guidance. We westerners will never understand fully the complicated dynamics of Thai family relationships, and it's pretty pointless to try. This tale is one-sided and absent of specific details.

The only way to understand this gesture is for the daughter to go and visit with the father, do whatever she had to to heal the wound, and move on, and if she were a friend of mine, I would urge to do this now before it is too late.

[svenivan]

Without knowing how old the daughter was when this happened it is hard to have an opinion.

If the daughter was 15 years old when this happened or if she was 25 years old. Big difference.

I know people in the west that still "do everything" and accepts all "sh*t" she is doing and saying even when she is 35 years old. She had never learn to be responsible for what she is doing.

[Asa]

Agree with Harry. It was a sarcastic way of reminding her daughter to show a little more respect.

It is the posture of paying highest respect to the patrons, such as the parents, teachers, monks. Never for the parents to do it to the child.

Yes, I agree with toybits and Harry that is so to some degrees, and most part of the intention is to make an ultimate request that the daughter behave.

My parents used to say they would do it if I quit smoking. I stopped smoking for few months, but they never did it. If they do, I would totally live in hell of guilt for the rest of my life.

I would add that if the parent request does not bear fruits, they reach the point of no return. The girl maybe kicked out.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Asa