Complaints Filed Against Topless Women Dancing During Songkran.

[wolf5370]

I really can't understand the justification that "as adults we have seen boobs before" and "you can see it in bars at any time" really stacks up about it happening in the street, in front of families trying to enjoy the celebration and in front of cameras showing the world that it is so.

I also can not see the arguement that because there are lots af deaths from drunk driving etc, that other laws should be ignored. Do we let rapist go because there is a terrorist plot to solve?

The fact that 30 odd million (60 - I think it Ok for men to show their baps) kept their clothes on may be all well and good, but the media never concentrates on that do they. They concentrate on the bad behaviour and show it around the world.

Lets face it - if you knew didly about Thailand other than its a nice place for a family holiday and you saw videos showing drunken loutish beaviour and girls stripping off drunkenly in the streets, would this not impact your view of Thailand as a family destination?

Regradless of how some may feel the politicians are morally corrupt etc personally, they should hardly be blamed on the odd occasion they deem to do their jobs - only for the times they do not.

[pedro01]

I believe these girls are hit with 500 Baht fines most evenings.

As for this reflecting badly on Thailand - that's what my (Thai) missus said. I asked if she thought this really was a reflection on the whole of Thailand or perhaps just a reflection on a drunken girl?

It is after all just one or two girls getting drunk and showing their bits. The rest of the 60 million managed to keep their kit on, so I don't see how this reflects on anything other than the fact the chicks are tarts.

I live outside Bkk with the 60 million others, and I miss all the excitement.

I live in it & I missed it too. I was in bed by 9pm... dam_n kids...

[wolf5370]

wolf:

I don't know wether I agree or disagree with this. Its a hard one morally for me. On one hand I think, its a party and a hundred years ago women walked bare breasted anyway. On the other hand Thai culture is slipping away and I can understand why people want to keep their cultural identity, especially with much of the west to hold up as a "shining" example of were you end up if you allow the cultural decline to go unchecked.

As far as the YouTubers go, if they staged it it could be argued I supposed that it was a direct attempt to slur or debase; however, if it was just some guys that caught it on camera and then posted it - and it was done in public - then they should not be charged at all IMO.

Beetlejuice:

Personally I don't want to see too many Western influences in Thailand, I love the country just the way it is.

Boundaries need to be drawn otherwise it will lead to the demise of the whole of Thai culture, just as what has happened in the UK.

I understand you and share your feelings to a degree (particularly that which I bolded) but I will point out as I so often do (here and elsewhere) "culture" and "traditional culture" are not the same thing and I think you are both confusing them (as so many do -- especially conservative Thais -- or conservatives in the west for that matter).

Just because things didn't used to be a certain way doesn't man the new way isn't part of the culture. Culture is not static, it's dynamic. 50 years ago in the west, as you know, premarital sex or provocative dress (just to name 2 examples) were not part of mainstream culture. Now they are.

And when people talk about this or that not being compatible with Thai culture they are often not only talking about something that is indeed, for better or worse a part of Thai culture now, they are speaking of a Thai culture that existed during one specific period on a long timeline --- a a period where much of the culture was influenced by Victorian ideas of being civilized (or sivilai as the Thais coined it). Modern Thais were covering up and and ostensibly tsk tsking at the idea of licentiousness etc

So even the Conservative Thai traditional culture isn't purely Thai or some sort of original default setting that got lost -- it was a point in the evolution just as where we are now is another one.

CULTURE: the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society; the way of life, especially the general customs and beliefs, of a particular group of people at a particular time

I agree that cultural values slide and "culture" is a snapshot in time - however, cultural habbits can change naturally, or be pushed. Changes in cultural behaviour (or as I said a slipping of culture - and I meant as of today generally) starts like a long journey, but with a single step. It can be directed, halted or pushed - when we in the west come here, loaded with our baggage of seeing the cultural shifts in our countries being (seemingly at least) mostly deleterious, then we have reason to worry when the same signs appear - and should be happy when the government does what ours didn't and nips it in the bud. THailand can step back and see the march of delinquancy in the west; we have provided the example. They can, therefore, make more informed judgement than we did.

Boobs out, in bars - drunks in bars - snogging in private - screwing in hotel rooms and brothels - fine - in the streets, not fine.

I started off being vbery two-minded about this - the more I think, read, and write about it the more I fall in to the Governments camp on this. It's nothing to do with being prudish - its all about protecting a country from a foreign fueled morality shift and an attempt to keep the reputation of the country out of the gutter. Sure, cleaning up the scams (and all of Phuket pretty much!) would help - but a bit is better than zip.

[wallcracks]

I watched the uncensored video and it is still out there.

This is extremely bad for the country's image around the world.

It has the semblance of the Brits loutish behaviour in the Spanish holiday resorts.

It is simply done in bad taste and should be kept in the bars. In fact these girls have brought the bar culture out onto the streets in full view of children and for the world to see.

A 500 baht fine is a joke for lowering Thailand's image to rock bottom.

I guess that the pillocks who uploaded the video onto the Internet are shiteing their pants right now and the girls claim to fame has backfired on them.

You are joking, i hope..........

No I am certainly not joking.

This event may seem harmless enough, but this leads to other things and sooner or later becomes more extreme.

For example, in Britain young teens and thugs have practically taken over the streets and this is exactly how it all starts if rules are relaxed.

Personally I don't want to see too many Western influences in Thailand, I love the country just the way it is.

Boundaries need to be drawn otherwise it will lead to the demise of the whole of Thai culture, just as what has happened in the UK.

I am not a prude or in anyway against this sort of thing, providing it is done at the right places, only for adults and not as a public spectacle for all and sundry.

HaHaHa I am not prude. LOL what else???

Come on anyway the whole Thailand is ways to Prude... now!!

Check out Movies for example they made 20.Years ago here in Thailand much more open then now.

And you find it good too that Thais go with all their Cloth swimming??

Who actually really Cares if 2-3 Girls are dancing Topless???

Do you think Thailand goes down the drain because about this???

Edited April 17, 2011 by wallcracks

[metisdead]

Posts asking for links have been removed.

Posting links of this nature is not allowed on Thaivisa forums and I am pretty sure all parties involved are well aware of it.

[jfchandler]

Well said.... Same thing for the jet ski scams, the mysterious and secret Chiang Mai hotel deaths, the taxi touts, the organized bands of street beggars and on and on...

Glad to see the government is focusing on the really important things as relates to the country's image...

Just remind me how many people were killed over Songkran, how many buckets of water were thrown into the faces of motorcyclists causing a some to fall off, I know of one young girl that was killed in such an incident and people are causing such a fuss over these two young women having fun - pathetic.

[Mrjlh]

In watching the clip, there were at least two others off to the side that were doing the same thing. But the camera only focused on the closest in front of him.

Chief wants to arrest those cheering and supporting them? Good luck! there was at least 5,000 cheering fans.

Much to do about nothing. See more action at the beach!

I was to far away that night to get a good look but close enough to see several others that didn't get on camera. It really didn't last that long and was very brief. Just having fun. Not like it happens every day. There were some police in the area standing way back. So why doesn't he admonish them for not taking action? Oh I forgot...denial...denial...denial!

[gregb]

in front of families trying to enjoy the celebration

If you had your family at a celebration like that, and are offended at what you saw, then I suggest that the problem has more to do with your judgement than the display of breasts. I saw hundreds of children playing around my area. They were playing with water and with other children their own age. And that was all. And everyone was happy. And there were thousands of these types of options around. Any parent who takes their children to a drunken festival like that aimed at older crowds and is shocked that breasts fall out of their holsters due to wardrobe malfunctions deserves to be reprimanded for abject stupidity.

I might have some sympathy for your position if such displays were taking place on temple grounds or in the school yard, but I think you are needlessly posturing in this case. Act more responsibly and take your family somewhere else and the problem is solved.

I don't have a problem with what the girls did. They were girls reacting to what they new the crowd wanted and thriving on the attention. This has been going on for alot longer than any of us have been alive, and if you think you are going to legislate this kind of behavior away you are a bigger fool than I am.

[SteeleJoe]

I meant to conclude the previous with one more comment: It's not only based on, in my opinion, a fallacy, it's pointless to decry modern culture's differences from the past and call for a return to some (romanticized) vague notion of a past culture. it ain't gonna happen. Nor can you stop things from changing.

I agree that cultural values slide and "culture" is a snapshot in time - however, cultural habbits can change naturally, or be pushed. Changes in cultural behaviour (or as I said a slipping of culture - and I meant as of today generally) starts like a long journey, but with a single step. It can be directed, halted or pushed - when we in the west come here, loaded with our baggage of seeing the cultural shifts in our countries being (seemingly at least) mostly deleterious, then we have reason to worry when the same signs appear - and should be happy when the government does what ours didn't and nips it in the bud. THailand can step back and see the march of delinquancy in the west; we have provided the example. They can, therefore, make more informed judgement than we did.

Boobs out, in bars - drunks in bars - snogging in private - screwing in hotel rooms and brothels - fine - in the streets, not fine.

I started off being vbery two-minded about this - the more I think, read, and write about it the more I fall in to the Governments camp on this. It's nothing to do with being prudish - its all about protecting a country from a foreign fueled morality shift and an attempt to keep the reputation of the country out of the gutter. Sure, cleaning up the scams (and all of Phuket pretty much!) would help - but a bit is better than zip.

God post. But I don't view things quite as you do and am not willing to taken certain things for granted that you are.

You implicit position is that a more conservative culture is inherently a good thing. You claim that the changes happening here are merely aping of what has happened in the west.

I don't necessarily agree with either of those things.

And you speak of a "slide" again implying that there was an original position that was inherently more moral, correct, and desirable. But in fact where does the slide begin, in your mind? At what point was the "right" kind of culture, given that it has always been evolving?

And this?

...the cultural shifts in our countries being (seemingly at least) eemingly at least) mostly deleterious...

I'm not at all sure that I would say they seem that way to me.

... then we have reason to worry when the same signs appear - and should be happy when the government does what ours didn't and nips it in the bud.

And I'm certain I wouldn't agree with that. no way shape or form do I want my government taking an active role in regulating or cultural changes, let alone "nipping them in the bud".

By all means, hold whatever values you think moral and teach your children the same. But it's sort of like that political science axiom, "In a democracy, people get the government they deserve" -- In a open and tolerant society with a democratic government, people get the society (complete with modern culture) that they deserve. If enough people are unhappy with it, it will cease to be. It's not the place of the government to step in and save us from ourselves. Leave that s_*t to the Taliban or the Ayatollahs.

Edited April 17, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[gbswales]

What is the big fuss about topless girls/women the breasts are not sexual organs no more than a mans nipples

Have you led a sheltered life?

Not at all I am merely saying that as sexual organs (which technically they are not) they are no different to men's nipples which are often sensitive to stimulation. The fact is that the obsession with hiding breasts is a modern invention - don't believe me, then wander into any art gallery! Maybe europeans would be more attracted to visit Thailand if the beaches allowed topless bathing.

[SteeleJoe]

[Not at all I am merely saying that as sexual organs (which technically they are not) they are no different to men's nipples which are often sensitive to stimulation. The fact is that the obsession with hiding breasts is a modern invention - don't believe me, then wander into any art gallery!

Well, that would depend on what country you are talking about and how you define "modern". But just as I said to people on the other side of the issue, it makes no sense to talk about what the culture used to be like and try to apply those values now. (Though you highlight my argument well -- what point in history was it the "right" one at which we should try to go back to?)

Maybe europeans would be more attracted to visit Thailand if the beaches allowed topless bathing.

Uhmm, yeah. Maybe so. Not sure I agree that that should be a priority though or factor into Thai people's consideration of what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

I am glad to see, at least, you stopped pretending that you didn't know what the fuss is about breasts since their not sexual organs..

[wolf5370]

in front of families trying to enjoy the celebration

If you had your family at a celebration like that, and are offended at what you saw, then I suggest that the problem has more to do with your judgement than the display of breasts. I saw hundreds of children playing around my area. They were playing with water and with other children their own age. And that was all. And everyone was happy. And there were thousands of these types of options around. Any parent who takes their children to a drunken festival like that aimed at older crowds and is shocked that breasts fall out of their holsters due to wardrobe malfunctions deserves to be reprimanded for abject stupidity.

I might have some sympathy for your position if such displays were taking place on temple grounds or in the school yard, but I think you are needlessly posturing in this case. Act more responsibly and take your family somewhere else and the problem is solved.

I don't have a problem with what the girls did. They were girls reacting to what they new the crowd wanted and thriving on the attention. This has been going on for alot longer than any of us have been alive, and if you think you are going to legislate this kind of behavior away you are a bigger fool than I am.

I think you are still mssing my point (perhaps intentionally). I am talking about the Governemnts attitude and intent to clamp down on it - I am not talking about taking my children, as I posted I am talking about overseas potential family holiday makers that are given a false impression of the country as a place of drunken frivolity and not somewhere they want to take their kids - as I said before, experience surplants reputation, but those that have only reputation and "evidence via media" are given a false impression. The fact that other may well, as you said, take their family somewhere else.

I live here, I know that this is not a common occurance, I took my kids to the day water fights and came home in the evening - people drinking, throwing water, dancing, having fun - but still enjoyable for a family.

I am certainly not talking of legislating anything out - there are laws there already (obviously as they have been prosecuted!). If the crowd wanted blood (ala Red Shirty Rally) - then is it also OK for individuals to break other laws? Perhaps burning down buildings? Shooting at the Army? Beating up teenage Army drivers? Mob rule is no rule at all - it is chaos - an not an excuse for lawlessness.

I doubt that Thai girls getting drunk, dancing in the street and stripping off and flouting their tits, has been going on for longer than I have been alive - at least not as a past time (amy be as an occurance - and then probably more seriously handled than a 500b fine!)

[jfchandler]

... as I posted I am talking about overseas potential family holiday makers that are given a false impression of the country as a place of drunken frivolity and not somewhere they want to take their kids - as I said before, experience surplants reputation, but those that have only reputation and "evidence via media" are given a false impression. The fact that other may well, as you said, take their family somewhere else.

Actually, I'd say that most holiday makers, certainly westerners, who come to Thailand have a pretty accurate impression of this being a place for drunken frivolity among tourists and even Thais on occasion... If it isn't, there really are a whole lot of imposters out there...

[wolf5370]

I meant to conclude the previous with one more comment: It's not only based on, in my opinion, a fallacy, it's pointless to decry modern culture's differences from the past and call for a return to some (romanticized) vague notion of a past culture. it ain't gonna happen. Nor can you stop things from changing.

I agree that cultural values slide and "culture" is a snapshot in time - however, cultural habbits can change naturally, or be pushed. Changes in cultural behaviour (or as I said a slipping of culture - and I meant as of today generally) starts like a long journey, but with a single step. It can be directed, halted or pushed - when we in the west come here, loaded with our baggage of seeing the cultural shifts in our countries being (seemingly at least) mostly deleterious, then we have reason to worry when the same signs appear - and should be happy when the government does what ours didn't and nips it in the bud. THailand can step back and see the march of delinquancy in the west; we have provided the example. They can, therefore, make more informed judgement than we did.

Boobs out, in bars - drunks in bars - snogging in private - screwing in hotel rooms and brothels - fine - in the streets, not fine.

I started off being vbery two-minded about this - the more I think, read, and write about it the more I fall in to the Governments camp on this. It's nothing to do with being prudish - its all about protecting a country from a foreign fueled morality shift and an attempt to keep the reputation of the country out of the gutter. Sure, cleaning up the scams (and all of Phuket pretty much!) would help - but a bit is better than zip.

God post. But I don't view things quite as you do and am not willing to taken certain things for granted that you are.

You implicit position is that a more conservative culture is inherently a good thing. You claim that the changes happening here are merely aping of what has happened in the west.

I don't necessarily agree with either of those things.

And you speak of a "slide" again implying that there was an original position that was inherently more moral, correct, and desirable. But in fact where does the slide begin, in your mind? At what point was the "right" kind of culture, given that it has always been evolving?

And this?

...the cultural shifts in our countries being (seemingly at least) eemingly at least) mostly deleterious...

I'm not at all sure that I would say they seem that way to me.

... then we have reason to worry when the same signs appear - and should be happy when the government does what ours didn't and nips it in the bud.

And I'm certain I wouldn't agree with that. no way shape or form do I want my government taking an active role in regulating or cultural changes, let alone "nipping them in the bud".

By all means, hold whatever values you think moral and teach your children the same. But it's sort of like that political science axiom, "In a democracy, people get the government they deserve" -- In a open and tolerant society with a democratic government, people get the society (complete with modern culture) that they deserve. If enough people are unhappy with it, it will cease to be. It's not the place of the government to step in and save us from ourselves. Leave that s_*t to the Taliban or the Ayatollahs.

There is a fine line between being oppressive and allowing chaos to reign. Every government does and must control the populous, they do it through laws and through education. This is what we call society. The utopean dream of lions laying with deer just isn't going to happen. Its is the duty for a government to walk thjat line and try to even the keel. In this case the girls over stepped that line (they broke laws already in place).

I am not so "conservative" that I would advocate a destruction of civil libities, but there must also be a point at which society is protected against itself and against pollution form abroad. Elected leaders are (in theory) placed there to put forward the bulk views of the masses (the majority) whilst still being careful not to stamp on the individual - to protect the country externally and society internally, and improve the lot of its citizens. This includes enacting laws that are morally bound as well as those that protect phyical property and body.

We might like to ask ourselves if this would have happened if there were no farangs there - if iut was just the traditional Thai festivities. If the answer is yes (which I doubt), then it is comples; if it is not (my guess) then it is moral pollution (or perhaps moral introduction of you really believe it is of benefit).

The moral shifts in our societies I am referring to is with respect to this thread - i.e. morallity of the young and sexual deviance (yes I know getting their baps out is hardly devient, but its a heading that encompasses everything upto the exteame it perhaps provokes). Whilst I will agree that cultural ideology in these areas have swung up and down throughout history, it should always IMO be considered bad when it causes offense to the main body of the populous. There are, of course exceptions to this (slavery for example) but even during slavery times I believe the main populous generally knew it to be bad in itself, but allowed cultural norms (of the time) to win through. In my country there is an ever increasing amount of single mothers in their early teens - sex on TV is becoming explicit - swearing happens even before the watershed and is accepted. Don't get me wrong, I'm most certainly not one of the PC brigade, but with mobs of kids on the steets that can vandalise bus stops and telephone boxes ad any flat surface, raid shops, mug little old ladies, video each other beating up even younger children , disrespecting police and authority because they know no one can do anything about it that actually has any affect, well, to me that is deleterious to society.

And as to "nip in the bud" I am not talking about tanks rolling in, I am talking about making a big thing of the first occurances - show a hardish line (at least publically) and show that it will not be tollerated from the get-go. 500b fine is not too harsh, but the speed of the clamp down and the publicity about it, is a good thing in my view.

If the culture is changing because the masses want it to - like wearing western clothes, listening to pop music, getting a real democratic government etc, then such measures will not work anyway (as you hint at - and I agree with) - but a few girls can turn into a trend, which either ends in it becvoming a norm, or worse, a more painful clamp down years later (that may involve tanks and students). Generally speaking, we can all see cultural shifts that are desireable and have benefit and those that are not and/or do not.

There is a massive gap between the Taliban and complete lawlessness, why does it have to be one or the other?

[geriatrickid]

What is the big fuss about topless girls/women the breasts are not sexual organs no more than a mans nipples

Have you led a sheltered life?

I don't think he's the one that has had the sheltered life. What is so disturbing about some women's bosom? If you treat women as sexual objects then yes I can see why you would be disyturbed. However, the human body is how we are made. Why is a bosom more sensual than an elbow? Well, it's because people like you say it is. If someone is having a bit of harmless fun in the midst of the wild debauchery that is Songkran, big deal. Deal with the drunks and the illegal alcohol sales first and then I'll get upset over a naked boobie. You've seen one before right? do they scare you or something?

[wolf5370]

... as I posted I am talking about overseas potential family holiday makers that are given a false impression of the country as a place of drunken frivolity and not somewhere they want to take their kids - as I said before, experience surplants reputation, but those that have only reputation and "evidence via media" are given a false impression. The fact that other may well, as you said, take their family somewhere else.

Actually, I'd say that most holiday makers, certainly westerners, who come to Thailand have a pretty accurate impression of this being a place for drunken frivolity among tourists and even Thais on occasion... If it isn't, there really are a whole lot of imposters out there...

Yes, but that;s why I said family holiday makers - thus excluding back-packers, sex tourists, stag weeks and so on.

[wolf5370]

What is the big fuss about topless girls/women the breasts are not sexual organs no more than a mans nipples

Have you led a sheltered life?

I don't think he's the one that has had the sheltered life. What is so disturbing about some women's bosom? If you treat women as sexual objects then yes I can see why you would be disyturbed. However, the human body is how we are made. Why is a bosom more sensual than an elbow? Well, it's because people like you say it is. If someone is having a bit of harmless fun in the midst of the wild debauchery that is Songkran, big deal. Deal with the drunks and the illegal alcohol sales first and then I'll get upset over a naked boobie. You've seen one before right? do they scare you or something?

Is anyone annoyed by the site by a naked breast? I don't think so. I think it is more a case of the fact that on a world stage it is not something Thailand wants to advertise about herself - the "wild debauchery" in the streets, I mean. FullMoon parties have cased embarrassment and various governments have tried to stop, hinder or just hide the fact they exist over the years - I don't think they want Songkran to end up as a national FM party - certainly doesn't match their target tourists. The thread was about the fact that the 3 girls were arrested and the YouTubers, nit about whether we like mammaries swinging in our faces.

[SteeleJoe]

There is a fine line between being oppressive and allowing chaos to reign. Every government does and must control the populous, they do it through laws and through education. This is what we call society. The utopean dream of lions laying with deer just isn't going to happen. Its is the duty for a government to walk thjat line and try to even the keel. In this case the girls over stepped that line (they broke laws already in place).

I am not so "conservative" that I would advocate a destruction of civil libities, but there must also be a point at which society is protected against itself and against pollution form abroad. Elected leaders are (in theory) placed there to put forward the bulk views of the masses (the majority) whilst still being careful not to stamp on the individual - to protect the country externally and society internally, and improve the lot of its citizens. This includes enacting laws that are morally bound as well as those that protect phyical property and body.

We might like to ask ourselves if this would have happened if there were no farangs there - if iut was just the traditional Thai festivities. If the answer is yes (which I doubt), then it is comples; if it is not (my guess) then it is moral pollution (or perhaps moral introduction of you really believe it is of benefit).

The moral shifts in our societies I am referring to is with respect to this thread - i.e. morallity of the young and sexual deviance (yes I know getting their baps out is hardly devient, but its a heading that encompasses everything upto the exteame it perhaps provokes). Whilst I will agree that cultural ideology in these areas have swung up and down throughout history, it should always IMO be considered bad when it causes offense to the main body of the populous. There are, of course exceptions to this (slavery for example) but even during slavery times I believe the main populous generally knew it to be bad in itself, but allowed cultural norms (of the time) to win through. In my country there is an ever increasing amount of single mothers in their early teens - sex on TV is becoming explicit - swearing happens even before the watershed and is accepted. Don't get me wrong, I'm most certainly not one of the PC brigade, but with mobs of kids on the steets that can vandalise bus stops and telephone boxes ad any flat surface, raid shops, mug little old ladies, video each other beating up even younger children , disrespecting police and authority because they know no one can do anything about it that actually has any affect, well, to me that is deleterious to society.

And as to "nip in the bud" I am not talking about tanks rolling in, I am talking about making a big thing of the first occurances - show a hardish line (at least publically) and show that it will not be tollerated from the get-go. 500b fine is not too harsh, but the speed of the clamp down and the publicity about it, is a good thing in my view.

If the culture is changing because the masses want it to - like wearing western clothes, listening to pop music, getting a real democratic government etc, then such measures will not work anyway (as you hint at - and I agree with) - but a few girls can turn into a trend, which either ends in it becvoming a norm, or worse, a more painful clamp down years later (that may involve tanks and students). Generally speaking, we can all see cultural shifts that are desireable and have benefit and those that are not and/or do not.

There is a massive gap between the Taliban and complete lawlessness, why does it have to be one or the other?

There is afine line between being oppressive and allowing chaos to reign. Everygovernment does and must control the populous, they do it through laws andthrough education.

"Control thepopulous" (sic)? That's not how I'd put it.

And, in ademocracy, the laws and education shouldbe roughly in accordance of what the majority of the populace wants.

This is whatwe call society.

Maybe that'swhat you call it. Me? I go more for one of these definitions:

a large groupof people who live together in an organized way, making decisions about how todo things and sharing the work that needs to be done. All the people in acountry, or in several similar countries, can be referred to as a society

The totality of social relationships among humans.

The utopeandream of lions laying with deer just isn't going to happen.

No, it isn't.it's certainly nothing I've ever imagined or implied would happen

And ationittItsis the duty for a government to walk thjat line and try to even the keel. Inthis case the girls over stepped that line (they broke laws already in place).

You've lost me: Which line? What keel? The girls stepped over the line so the government should do what?

… but theremust also be a point at which society is protected against itself and againstpollution form abroad.

Wow. I don'teven know what to say that (apart from what I've already said – I won't no partof a system like that and I boggle at the mentality that would)

Elected leaders are (in theory) placed thereto put forward the bulk views of the masses (the majority) whilst still beingcareful not to stamp on the individual - to protect the country externally andsociety internally, and improve the lot of its citizens. This includes enactinglaws that are morally bound as well as those that protect phyical property andbody.

Yes.And?

We might liketo ask ourselves if this would have happened if there were no farangs there -if iut was just the traditional Thai festivities. If the answer is yes (which Idoubt), then it is comples; if it is not (my guess) then it is moral pollution(or perhaps moral introduction of you really believe it is of benefit).

Have you ever partied with working class Thais? Been to any of the Thai members clubs (like Forte or other highclas "Coyote" joints? I've done both over the span of a couple decades and I think your notion that Thais are somehow innocent when devoid of the evil influences – or even the very presence of Farangs is well…ridiculous. No offense intended but I have to say it.

I don't view is "moral pollution" or benefit.

If the cultureis changing because the masses want it to - like wearing western clothes,listening to pop music, getting a real democratic government etc, then suchmeasures will not work anyway (as you hint at - and I agree with) - but a fewgirls can turn into a trend, which either ends in it becvoming a norm, orworse, a more painful clamp down years later (that may involve tanks andstudents). Generally speaking, we can all see cultural shifts that aredesireable and have benefit and those that are not and/or do not.

Ah, here I think we agree.

There is amassive gap between the Taliban and complete lawlessness, why does it have tobe one or the other?

There is indeed a massive gap between them. Who on earth suggested that it has to be one or the other?!

That, sir, is what's known as a "straw man"; girls getting their tops off in public is somewhat short of "complete lawlessness", is it not?

EDITED FOR TYPO and slight addition to content

Edited April 17, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[phiphidon]

Shouldn't the Thai populace be more concerned about the existence/abuse of the Computer Crilmes Act?

[Ijustwannateach]

Happens every year- the Victorian brigade come out and shriek, 'no sex, please, we're Thai!'

Has nothing to do with anything traditional in Thailand at all.

If they want to make such a big deal of it, they may find that their attempts to control the culture simply backfire and people decide to start really showing what they think of the blue-rinse set.

If they were smart they'd put up with it once a year and enjoy watching people sweat in long-sleeved shirts and ill-suited hot Western work clothing in the city the rest of the time.

[wolf5370]

There is a fine line between being oppressive and allowing chaos to reign. Every government does and must control the populous, they do it through laws and through education. This is what we call society. The utopean dream of lions laying with deer just isn't going to happen. It is the duty for a government to walk that line and try to even the keel. In this case the girls over stepped that line (they broke laws already in place).

I am not so "conservative" that I would advocate a destruction of civil libities, but there must also be a point at which society is protected against itself and against pollution form abroad. Elected leaders are (in theory) placed there to put forward the bulk views of the masses (the majority) whilst still being careful not to stamp on the individual - to protect the country externally and society internally, and improve the lot of its citizens. This includes enacting laws that are morally bound as well as those that protect phyical property and body.

We might like to ask ourselves if this would have happened if there were no farangs there - if it was just the traditional Thai festivities. If the answer is yes (which I doubt), then it is comples; if it is not (my guess) then it is moral pollution (or perhaps moral introduction of you really believe it is of benefit).

The moral shifts in our societies I am referring to is with respect to this thread - i.e. morallity of the young and sexual deviance (yes I know getting their baps out is hardly devient, but its a heading that encompasses everything upto the exteame it perhaps provokes). Whilst I will agree that cultural ideology in these areas have swung up and down throughout history, it should always IMO be considered bad when it causes offense to the main body of the populous. There are, of course exceptions to this (slavery for example) but even during slavery times I believe the main populous generally knew it to be bad in itself, but allowed cultural norms (of the time) to win through. In my country there is an ever increasing amount of single mothers in their early teens - sex on TV is becoming explicit - swearing happens even before the watershed and is accepted. Don't get me wrong, I'm most certainly not one of the PC brigade, but with mobs of kids on the steets that can vandalise bus stops and telephone boxes ad any flat surface, raid shops, mug little old ladies, video each other beating up even younger children , disrespecting police and authority because they know no one can do anything about it that actually has any affect, well, to me that is deleterious to society.

And as to "nip in the bud" I am not talking about tanks rolling in, I am talking about making a big thing of the first occurances - show a hardish line (at least publically) and show that it will not be tollerated from the get-go. 500b fine is not too harsh, but the speed of the clamp down and the publicity about it, is a good thing in my view.

If the culture is changing because the masses want it to - like wearing western clothes, listening to pop music, getting a real democratic government etc, then such measures will not work anyway (as you hint at - and I agree with) - but a few girls can turn into a trend, which either ends in it becvoming a norm, or worse, a more painful clamp down years later (that may involve tanks and students). Generally speaking, we can all see cultural shifts that are desireable and have benefit and those that are not and/or do not.

There is a massive gap between the Taliban and complete lawlessness, why does it have to be one or the other?

There is afine line between being oppressive and allowing chaos to reign. Every government does and must control the populous, they do it through laws and through education.

"Control the populous" (sic)? That's not how I'd put it.

And, in a democracy, the laws and education should be roughly in accordance of what the majority of the populace wants.

"This is what we call society."

Maybe that'swhat you call it. Me? I go more for one of these definitions:

a large groupof people who live together in an organized way, making decisions about how todo things and sharing the work that needs to be done. All the people in acountry, or in several similar countries, can be referred to as a society

The totality of social relationships among humans.

"The utopean dream of lions laying with deer just isn't going to happen"

No, it isn't.it's certainly nothing I've ever imagined or implied would happen

"It is the duty for a government to walk that line and try to even the keel. In this case the girls over stepped that line (they broke laws already in place)."

You've lost me: Which line? What keel? The girls stepped over the line so the government should do what?

"I am not so "conservative" that I would advocate a destruction of civil libities, but there must also be a point at which society is protected against itself and against pollution form abroad."

Wow. I don'teven know what to say that (apart from what I've already said – I won't no partof a system like that and I boggle at the mentality that would)

Elected leaders are (in theory) placed thereto put forward the bulk views of the masses (the majority) whilst still beingcareful not to stamp on the individual - to protect the country externally andsociety internally, and improve the lot of its citizens. This includes enactinglaws that are morally bound as well as those that protect phyical property andbody.

Yes.And?

We might liketo ask ourselves if this would have happened if there were no farangs there -if iut was just the traditional Thai festivities. If the answer is yes (which Idoubt), then it is comples; if it is not (my guess) then it is moral pollution(or perhaps moral introduction of you really believe it is of benefit).

Have you ever partied with working class Thais? Been to any of the Thai members clubs (like Forte or other highclas "Coyote" joints? I've done both over the span of a couple decades and I think your notion that Thais are somehow innocent when devoid of the evil influences – or even the very presence of Farangs is well…ridiculous. No offense intended but I have to say it.

I don't view is "moral pollution" or benefit.

"f the culture is changing because the masses want it to - like wearing western clothes, listening to pop music, getting a real democratic government etc, then such measures will not work anyway (as you hint at - and I agree with) - but a few girls can turn into a trend, which either ends in it becvoming a norm, or worse, a more painful clamp down years later (that may involve tanks and students). Generally speaking, we can all see cultural shifts that are desireable and have benefit and those that are not and/or do not."

Ah, here I think we agree.

"There is a massive gap between the Taliban and complete lawlessness, why does it have to be one or the other?"

There is indeed a massive gap between them. Who on earth suggested that it has to be one or the other?!

That, sir, is what's known as a "straw man"; girls getting their tops off in public is somewhat short of "complete lawlessness", is it not?

EDITED FOR TYPO and slight addition to content

[Corrected some of the missqutes above]

You: "Control the populous" (sic)? That's not how I'd put it.

Me: So how would you put it? What other term do you believe coveres the use of laws and education with this respect? Guide? Direct? Then it would not have enforceable laws - so "control" is the correct word IMO.

You: And, in a democracy, the laws and education should be roughly in accordance of what the majority of the populace wants.

Me: And you are sure they are not? How do you know this? I am intrigued.

You: "This is what we call society."...Maybe that'swhat you call it. Me? I go more for one of these definitions: a large groupof people who live together in an organized way, making decisions about how todo things and sharing the work that needs to be done. All the people in acountry, or in several similar countries, can be referred to as a society

Me: OK. So name one society that has no laws and does not educate the people in their form of society? Dictionaries are useful for pulling definitions from, but they do not follow context. You are just being pedantic I believe.

You: "The utopean dream of lions laying with deer just isn't going to happen" - No, it isn't.it's certainly nothing I've ever imagined or implied would happen

Me: But you "societies" have no laws or education - how do we stop the "lion" eating the "deer" unless we are in such a utopean dream?

You: "It is the duty for a government to walk that line and try to even the keel. In this case the girls over stepped that line (they broke laws already in place)." - You've lost me: Which line? What keel? The girls stepped over the line so the government should do what?

Me: The fine line - as in the begining of the paragraph."Keeping an even keel" is a maxim coming from sailing, to kkeep an even keel means to keep the boat straight and upright - i.e. to balance the pros and cons of cencorship, authority, legislation, etc.

You: "I am not so "conservative" that I would advocate a destruction of civil libities, but there must also be a point at which society is protected against itself and against pollution form abroad." - Wow. I don'teven know what to say that (apart from what I've already said - I won't no partof a system like that and I boggle at the mentality that would)

Me: So you boggle at countries trying to keep Shar'iah Law from its doors? Arranged children marriages? Beheading for theives and blasphemers? How about facism extreamist ideas coming from abroad - you want your country to allow it to take root at home? I boggle at anyone who would allow anything in affect putting freedom of choice of non-nationals before the people they are elected to protect and serve. Be aware, I think it was obviouis "pollution" in this regard is not "people" but ideas - perhaps you did not catch this???

You: Have you ever partied with working class Thais? Been to any of the Thai members clubs (like Forte or other highclas "Coyote" joints?

Me: Yes (for more than 20 years - more if you consider I wentto school with Thais, do we include 12 year old birthday parties?) and no - I don't go to any clubs - not since Boy Scouts and that was a while ago.

You: I've done both over the span of a couple decades and I think your notion that Thais are somehow innocent when devoid of the evil influences – or even the very presence of Farangs is well…ridiculous. No offense intended but I have to say it.

No: 5555 Where have I even implied Thais are innocent? I have simply said, and maintain, that the Government is right to want no disparaging media about their country and have a right to enforce their laws in this regard - which is all they have done.

You: "There is a massive gap between the Taliban and complete lawlessness, why does it have to be one or the other?" - There is indeed a massive gap between them. Who on earth suggested that it has to be one or the other?!

Me" You did. When I suggested that enforcement of law and the use of law and education to direct morality, you stated that it was akin to the Taliban etc - I do not see in blacks and whites, there is much leeway between the two.

You: That, sir, is what's known as a "straw man"; girls getting their tops off in public is somewhat short of "complete lawlessness", is it not?

Me: Of course it is (I am refering to the second part of the quote) - but you took it deeper than that when I mentioned about the Thai Governemnts possible wish to keep morality from sliding down the western hole. Therefore, my responses were equally as general.

Me: Do I think 3 girls waving their baps is going to cause a moral melt down - of course not! Does it worry me? Not really no - see it any Saturday night in my home country. Does it offend me personally? Nope.

The thread isn't about my thoughts though - its about the Governments reaction to it - the Governments fears and their right to enforce their laws (as already written) - and it was that that I am answering and have always done so throught this thread.

Edited April 17, 2011 by wolf5370

[webfact]

Topless teenage dancers get dressing down for 'distorting Songkran values'

By The Nation

Bangrak District Office director Surakiat Limcharern yesterday lodged a complaint with police over topless female Songkran revellers whose sexy dancing near Silom Road was recorded and posted on the Internet.

"It hurts the image of Thailand, in particular Silom," he said. "It distorts Songkran culture too."

Surakiat said the topless dances took place on Naradhivas Ratchanakharin Road.

"Close examination showed the topless revellers were young, so young that it dismissed my initial assumption that they might have been workers in the redlight zone of Patpong," Surakiat said.

Lodging his complaint at the Yannawa Police Station, Surakiat urged police to track down the teenagers who have carried out obscene acts in public places.

National Police Commissioner General Wichien Pojphosri vowed action against both the topless revellers and their cheering crowds. Culture Minister Nipit Intarasombat, meanwhile, wanted action taken against those lending loudspeakers and stereo systems for the topless dancing.

"Apart from being fined, the topless girls should be required to do some

cultural work. For example, they should be made to read books about the Songkran Festival for young students to listen to as part of the punishment," Nipit said.

Video clips showing the topless Songkran revellers were posted on the Internet on Saturday, provoking a public outcry.

Culture Watch Centre director Ladda Tangsupachai yesterday disclosed that Nipit also instructed her to officially ask the National Police Office and the ICT Ministry to ban the video clips on the Internet.

Family Network board member Wanchai Boonpracha said he felt bad that some young revellers had strayed so far during the Thai New Year celebrations.

"If such things go on, foreign tourists will finally think that Songkran is just about the water fights. They will not see Songkran as a beautiful culture," he said.

He urged authorities to seriously enforce laws to prevent inappropriate acts in the future.

In Phichit, two transvestites were fined yesterday for exposing their breasts during the Songkran celebrations.

"I am so sorry for doing so. I was under the influence of alcohol. Next year, I will wear a decent Thai costume to celebrate Songkran," one said.

In Chon Buri, Pattaya City's councillor Rattanachai Suttidechanai said all entertainment venues were told not to stage pornographic shows.

"We are developing Pattaya as a world-class destination. The world is watching us," he said.

Water splashing in Pattaya City will be officially permitted from today to tomorrow.

-- The Nation 2011-04-18

[cougar52]

What I think is that with all the talk about this and how it should not have been filmed especially so that children could see it. And the clip was pulled from Youtube with all the condemnation of it all.

Then when I woke up this morning and my wife turned on the T.V. on Channel 3 as she does everyday, and what do I see-- The complete video at 6:15 A.M. All I can say is AMAZING THAILAND!

So will Channel 3 also be subject to the 5 year prison term and the 100,000 Baht find same as the original poster on youtube

Edited April 18, 2011 by cougar52

[Serenity74]

Condemned, yet it's being repeatedly played on every channel with news, Asking for peoples' assistance with giving any information about the events, yet they blur out the faces. Clever.

[austriandutch]

I am not a dirty oll b'tard , and if my daughters (I have 2) would be in a jolly mood and had fun like this in a few years then it is their choice to do so.... Its 2011 Gentlemen not 1911....

There are some members here that have WAY TOO MUCH TIME on their hands posting here about a few girls flashing their boobs ...

For christ sake Thais are selling kiddie porn on many street corners and the 'Farangs' here are trying to defend the 'Thai Honor' ...

I love the Thais , I love this country but I also see them for the hypocrites that they are > Thai values? There is only one Thai Value and that is 'Tang'....

The rest is a lot of blabla..

Thai politics are a joke, Thai Police are paid Criminals in brown and the Thai Smile is a thin veneer .........But showing some boobs that will bring the image down in the rest of the world ....hahahhhahaha

You forget about PatPong , Nana.......

Come on guys , when you are not Thai and you are 'a knight in shining armor' defending the Thai traditional values who are you really kidding here....

Love all things Thai but am still able to see them for the hypocrites they are .

For all of those who don't see anything wrong with this incident that took place last friday, the majority of you are probably dirty old b*tards. And here's something else to think about while these morons were "having fun", What would you think if one of those were your daughters?

[simon43]

"Close examination showed the topless revellers were young, so young that it dismissed my initial assumption that they might have been workers in the redlight zone of Patpong," Surakiat said.

Yawn..... I looked at the video and all I saw were 2 drunk bar-girls dancing with their tits out. Yes, they were young, but does Surakiat think bar-girls are all over 21 years?

As for distorting Songkran culture, please get real. Why does he think many foreigners (like me), lock themselves away for the duration of Songkran? It's because we do not want to be hit with ice-cubed water, chilli water and p*ss water....

"If such things go on, foreign tourists will finally think that Songkran is just about the water fights. They will not see Songkran as a beautiful culture," he said.

What planet is this man on????

Simon

[Serenity74]

@austriandutch

Sorry sir, I DO happen to be half thai, And if you are not Thai I suggest you not give your opinion on Thai government, as it lands most of you OUT of the country. As for you not caring about your daughters behaviour, well, Just shows how much of a good parent you are doesn't it.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Serenity74

[NanaFoods]

I don't quite understand.... pictures, please, of what NOT to do

[auserb]

what's the big deal?...good on them

[angsta]

No I am certainly not joking.

This event may seem harmless enough, but this leads to other things and sooner or later becomes more extreme.

For example, in Britain young teens and thugs have practically taken over the streets and this is exactly how it all starts if rules are relaxed.

Personally I don't want to see too many Western influences in Thailand, I love the country just the way it is.

Boundaries need to be drawn otherwise it will lead to the demise of the whole of Thai culture, just as what has happened in the UK.

I am not a prude or in anyway against this sort of thing, providing it is done at the right places, only for adults and not as a public spectacle for all and sundr

y.

Naaa he's joking. Or he's really old.