5 More Musicians Jailed

[DavidOxon]

I have just heard that another 5 farang musicians have been arrested for jamming in the North Gate Jazz co-op...

worrying times

David

[ThaiPauly]

Where did you get this info David?

[DavidOxon]

from a facebook friend,

it is only heresay though...

[PlanetX]

This is just the beginning - next it will be any type of volunteer work, etc

Foreigners are becoming undesireables

[DavidOxon]

This is a google translation of a Facebook posting here;

http://www.facebook.com/notes/bain-chompoowong/เหตุไฉน/10150569307950414

Peace upon the royal treatment. And the Department of Immigration. Because the event was born in Chiang Mai at 22.00 pm during the Tuesday night reflect the intent of some Rarely corresponds to the word "peace" and "Royal" I have a question that I want to compose a flirt to the Minister of Interior. That the arrest of a group of musicians to create "peace" through music to the people. These people do not know that music. Where did wrong? The only catch foreigners who participated create music together. The capacity Tong is not the purpose of money. But want to connect this world to become one. Or the government. And the Ministry of beloved this

Have the intention to close the country And create a wall of art?

An event worse than this. Going on around town. Foreigners illegally trafficking in methamphetamine, but you chose to take them. Catch artists in the world. Cause and effect for personal gain.

If this event must end by doing the voice for music in Chiang Mai must cease, I said Ben Chomphu families still do not see the DA network. And will create a new voice. To highlight and point out local and national human a network. Shame to see the updated pre moral defect. And without the wisdom and ethics of the agency said the preliminary

With the truth.

Mr. Ben Wong Chomphu.

[silverhawk_usa]

Yesterday afternoon, an American guy with a guitar case strapped on his back, was asking me for directions to the North Gate Jazz club. I guess he found it.........

[mrclough]

This is just the beginning - next it will be any type of volunteer work, etc

Foreigners are becoming undesireables

I think you need to have a work permit for volunteer work too.

To be fair, I do feel a little sorry for these guy / gals but you have to admit that in light of recent events they must have been aware of the possible outcome of their actions.

I'm not trying to smart about this but if I were a musician, I wouldn't be considering any playing in public these days unless I had said work permit.

I know some rules apply to all of the bars in town, if seemingly not to others but does anyone really think this was sensible on their part?

Also, what of the bar owner? Do they receive a fine for allowing people to work in the bar without a work permit?

[DavidOxon]

i think the (Thai?) bar owner was arrested too, same as at Guitarman

[Beetlejuice]

Jailed for making music? Were their songs and playing that bad?

As David Oxon says; this is hearsay and I would not take this seriously for the time being.

If there is any fact in this, then there maybe more in this then just a bunch of guys making a few songs or it`s time to pack our bags, give Thailand the 2 fingered salute and go somewhere else.

[DavidOxon]

it's serious, i've chatted with an eye witness!

[blabla1]

Obviously no music at Happy pizza this Thursday....bloody hell....frustrating times alright, but i am working on getting a work permit....oh shit.....is that working? ... :lol:

[jdinasia]

I can run over to Bird's Nest and see if there is any information later this afternoon.

[daoyai]

I also got confirmation on this, one guy was a tourist that had just arrived and was only playing on one song....arrested This is just wrong and sickening on so many levels. There is evil intention behind this, NOBOBY benefits from this action.

[PlanetX]

This is just the beginning - next it will be any type of volunteer work, etc

Foreigners are becoming undesireables

I think you need to have a work permit for volunteer work too.

To be fair, I do feel a little sorry for these guy / gals but you have to admit that in light of recent events they must have been aware of the possible outcome of their actions.

I'm not trying to smart about this but if I were a musician, I wouldn't be considering any playing in public these days unless I had said work permit.

I know some rules apply to all of the bars in town, if seemingly not to others but does anyone really think this was sensible on their part?

Also, what of the bar owner? Do they receive a fine for allowing people to work in the bar without a work permit?

You are correct, you do need a work permit for any type of volunteer activity

I am sure the wide scope of the term "volunteer" can be used for almost anything someone does

[iSabai]

What's so silly about all this is that there should be a warning or warning and fine for such violations. We're not exactly talking major heinous crime here! Thailand surely has worse things to worry about.

Have to think that taking them off to the monkey just gives them opportunity to extort more money.

[blabla1]

Apparently, Bangkok guys last night,not local, so who are they,what are they doing here are they legit, or just a new maffia scam??????

[blabla1]

Some one who paid money to some one, got a tip off last night, not to play, so , it's all linked somehow .

[flying]

Weird because on their jazz co-op website they say in the 1st paragraph that it is basically an open mic type setup.

They boast that many foreigners jam along with the band

The North Gate is the jazz style pub 2 bands/night by foreign from many country jam on the band. The drink is very cheap with exclusive atmosphere. The pub is new choice for Chiang Mai and traveller who love relax with boundless.

http://jazzco-op.blogspot.com/

[Greenside]

i think the (Thai?) bar owner was arrested too, same as at Guitarman

Well, he's a musician, only a bar owner incidentally and Thai into the bargain so I imagine he'll be putting up a spirited defence in favour of the freedom to play music. Before anyone suggests it, I strongly doubt that a change in Tea Money arrangements has any part to play in this (as was mooted in the Guitarman case) since the NGJC always packs up on the dot of midnight in my experience and is run by locals who have no need to ingratiate themselves with the authorities. The majority of musicians are Thai and in the tradition of minority music venues all over the world, they welcome visiting players without regard to race, gender or, on occasion, talent. The audience includes Thais, expats and visitors of all ages brought together by a shared passion for the music.

The debate about the legality has been done to death in the last thread on this subject and by now we all know it's illegal blah blah, but this apparent determination to withdraw the tolerance previously extended to the music scene is plain dumb as well as having ramifications beyond the immediate.

Firstly, this attitude threatens Chiang Mai's status as a centre for creative people and the arts. OK, it's not New York, Paris or London but I'd venture to say that our city is possibly the best served in SE Asia (outside of Bangkok and who wants to live there?) as far as the arts and cultural events are concerned. The arts, and particularly the music scene, was definitely one of the main reasons I chose to live here and I don't think I'm a lone voice in that. Stifle this freedom and everyone, audience and artists alike are the poorer, and I don't mean financially. Musicians need to experience each other's talents close up to allow styles to develop and closed minds will produce just the kind of results they deserve. The tourist authority spends millions of baht on promotion but seems to be miserably complacent about highlighting the value of these kind of activities as contributing to a visit to Chiang Mai.

Secondly, musicians have to make music. It's in their blood and, like most artistic endeavours, it's the sharing that gives the real satisfaction and seldom, if ever, simply a money thing. Musicians are unlucky in that their craft is more often than not performed in places that are readily accessible to the public and where food and drink are available for those watching, leaving them open to the accusation that they are there to provide customers for a commercial enterprise. Would people go to see, say a jazz gig, if there was nothing there to eat or drink? Probably not many, so you could have grounds to say that they are not the primary attraction although it would be a tough case to argue especially in the face of Asian Logic. Would the bar still have customers if it didn't give space to the band? Lots do.

Thirdly, where is this going to stop? Writers live to write. Photographers are compelled to capture images. Film and video makers take copious amounts of material and make records of festivals, hilltribes and who knows what. Tell an artist they can't show anyone their work.

Are these things so different from what has got the musicians into trouble? I don't think so.

Writers distribute their work as Blogs, many on free platforms like Wordpress whose owners make serious amounts of money from the ads that run alongside the efforts of those simply wanting an audience for their efforts. You Tube, Flickr, Photobucket, Vimeo and a hundred thousand other sites including Thai Visa make their income by providing a platform where the talents of ordinary people can be aired and selling something (in most cases advertising) on the back of it. In fact it's the most widely used online business model and serves the interests of content providers, the audience and the business owners alike.

Are we now heading toward a time when we have to beware of posting our pictures, writing our blogs or even contributing to a thread like this? Whenever a newbie posts a question about working in Thailand, about 10 Old Hands are guaranteed to leap into the thread and (occasionally rather smugly, I sometimes think) point out that volunteering and working online even if unrewarded both require a work permit which in practical terms makes either occupation untenable. I'm willing to bet that those very same people are supporting one or more of the businesses above by virtue of their talents and, if the rules really apply, should be getting out the WP application forms themselves.

Other than being a much higher profile I don't think there is a fundamental difference and, being the case, we should all view these developments in a serious light. Application of these regulations to the letter of the law could easily turn what many of us regard as home into a much poorer and less attractive place to live.

Khun Por (the founder) at the North Gate Jazz Co-Op in happier times.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Greenside

[james24]

Is there anything we can do.. isn't it about time we start challenging some of these ridicolous scams... perhaps filiming it and making it viral....?

The internet seems our strongest ally here, the media seem to pick up anything on Thailand at the moment.

[blabla1]

The only way to cure this problem, will be, if it is accepted, that music is an art form and not a form of making money or being seen as a disadvantage to Thai musicians, If it is considered work, because of the fact that applause is a form of payment for a musician,we have no chance, secondly if you are retired, in their eyes, you are working, you should be taking part in retired activities like playing Golf, or sitting under a palm tree waiting to die.

I honestly see no cure to this problem, the fact remains, we cannot get a work permit to play music all around the place, at best a permit, at one location,but that will be rare. so sad...

[james24]

The only way to cure this problem, will be, if it is accepted, that music is an art form and not a form of making money or being seen as a disadvantage to Thai musicians, If it is considered work, because of the fact that applause is a form of payment for a musician,we have no chance, secondly if you are retired, in their eyes, you are working, you should be taking part in retired activities like playing Golf, or sitting under a palm tree waiting to die.

I honestly see no cure to this problem, the fact remains, we cannot get a work permit to play music all around the place, at best a permit, at one location,but that will be rare. so sad...

You know only up until recently I realised why there are so many soaps shown on tv here, its simply to do with the ad's and the money they make from them. The format seems to work and barely ever changes including the actors they use. I'd like to add that the majority of actors dont have much range and seem to be the children of influential people. I think this shows that it's more to do with making money and looking good than actual talent or meaning anything deeper than speciifed..

Music, to a certain extent here. is much the same.

Once again it boils down to bloody money.

[morganl]

This happened a few years ago in Pai, where a bunch of musicians were arrested for playing at various bars. An immigration officer had a meeting with a few of them after receiving complaints and he mentioned the musicians could get an ENTERTAINMENT VISA.

I am not sure if anyone actually went to apply for one but you might consider going to the immigration office here in Chiang Mai and asking about it. It might be a super easy solution to the problem. It would be great if it is as simple as filling out a form and then you guys/gals could all be protected.

[cmsally]

Maybe there is an alternative govt. movement to propose Thailand as the "UNcreative City".

[surayu]

if you are retired, in their eyes, you are working

If any of the stuff someone do, with or without money, can be done by a thai national, then you need a work permit and have to pay tax.

Example: your heart is pumping blood inside your body, does he have a work permit for this? no? then you should stop him and let a thai use a defibrillator on you any time you need your heart to work, easy! what else do you need for understanding this?

[blackandtin]

Well said, Greenside.

i think the (Thai?) bar owner was arrested too, same as at Guitarman

Well, he's a musician, only a bar owner incidentally and Thai into the bargain so I imagine he'll be putting up a spirited defence in favour of the freedom to play music. Before anyone suggests it, I strongly doubt that a change in Tea Money arrangements has any part to play in this (as was mooted in the Guitarman case) since the NGJC always packs up on the dot of midnight in my experience and is run by locals who have no need to ingratiate themselves with the authorities. The majority of musicians are Thai and in the tradition of minority music venues all over the world, they welcome visiting players without regard to race, gender or, on occasion, talent. The audience includes Thais, expats and visitors of all ages brought together by a shared passion for the music.

The debate about the legality has been done to death in the last thread on this subject and by now we all know it's illegal blah blah, but this apparent determination to withdraw the tolerance previously extended to the music scene is plain dumb as well as having ramifications beyond the immediate.

Firstly, this attitude threatens Chiang Mai's status as a centre for creative people and the arts. OK, it's not New York, Paris or London but I'd venture to say that our city is possibly the best served in SE Asia (outside of Bangkok and who wants to live there?) as far as the arts and cultural events are concerned. The arts, and particularly the music scene, was definitely one of the main reasons I chose to live here and I don't think I'm a lone voice in that. Stifle this freedom and everyone, audience and artists alike are the poorer, and I don't mean financially. Musicians need to experience each other's talents close up to allow styles to develop and closed minds will produce just the kind of results they deserve. The tourist authority spends millions of baht on promotion but seems to be miserably complacent about highlighting the value of these kind of activities as contributing to a visit to Chiang Mai.

Secondly, musicians have to make music. It's in their blood and, like most artistic endeavours, it's the sharing that gives the real satisfaction and seldom, if ever, simply a money thing. Musicians are unlucky in that their craft is more often than not performed in places that are readily accessible to the public and where food and drink are available for those watching, leaving them open to the accusation that they are there to provide customers for a commercial enterprise. Would people go to see, say a jazz gig, if there was nothing there to eat or drink? Probably not many, so you could have grounds to say that they are not the primary attraction although it would be a tough case to argue especially in the face of Asian Logic. Would the bar still have customers if it didn't give space to the band? Lots do.

Thirdly, where is this going to stop? Writers live to write. Photographers are compelled to capture images. Film and video makers take copious amounts of material and make records of festivals, hilltribes and who knows what. Tell an artist they can't show anyone their work.

Are these things so different from what has got the musicians into trouble? I don't think so.

Writers distribute their work as Blogs, many on free platforms like Wordpress whose owners make serious amounts of money from the ads that run alongside the efforts of those simply wanting an audience for their efforts. You Tube, Flickr, Photobucket, Vimeo and a hundred thousand other sites including Thai Visa make their income by providing a platform where the talents of ordinary people can be aired and selling something (in most cases advertising) on the back of it. In fact it's the most widely used online business model and serves the interests of content providers, the audience and the business owners alike.

Are we now heading toward a time when we have to beware of posting our pictures, writing our blogs or even contributing to a thread like this? Whenever a newbie posts a question about working in Thailand, about 10 Old Hands are guaranteed to leap into the thread and (occasionally rather smugly, I sometimes think) point out that volunteering and working online even if unrewarded both require a work permit which in practical terms makes either occupation untenable. I'm willing to bet that those very same people are supporting one or more of the businesses above by virtue of their talents and, if the rules really apply, should be getting out the WP application forms themselves.

Other than being a much higher profile I don't think there is a fundamental difference and, being the case, we should all view these developments in a serious light. Application of these regulations to the letter of the law could easily turn what many of us regard as home into a much poorer and less attractive place to live.

Khun Por (the founder) at the North Gate Jazz Co-Op in happier times.

[daoyai]

.....again, thank you Greenside, you said it all ..... I wonder what Thailands most loved and famous, jazz loving musician (not to be named) would think about this?

[Greenside]

Is there anything we can do.. isn't it about time we start challenging some of these ridicolous scams... perhaps filiming it and making it viral....?

The internet seems our strongest ally here, the media seem to pick up anything on Thailand at the moment.

This is not a scam. It's the zealous application of an existing immigration law that is in need of re-evaluation in certain areas - volunteering and the issue discussed in this thread in particular. Usually, it's mai pen rai but those taking advantage of it risk serious consequences on the whim of a new official, petty jealousies or as a result of crossing the wrong person. Who knows why the current crack down is happening?

The amount of volunteer talent that is wasted here makes most people who know the extent of it very depressed and frustrated. People from all over the world have settled here with knowledge and experience that could be passed onto local people in a whole range of ways but mostly it's just ignored.

As for what one can do - both the British and US Embassies claim to have tried to make things easier on these fronts but to no avail. I don't know if the province has any sway with the immigration department but it would be good to point out that ignoring the interests of the expat community could have some economic consequences should it really become sufficiently uncomfortable here. I believe I read somewhere that there's about 20,000 of us in CM - say with an average spend of 30K baht a month each - that's 7,200,000,000 a year (yes, I was surprised too but I checked the sums). Suppose the figures are even half right, it's still a lot of money coming into the local economy with zero promotional costs to attain it - in fact we even pay for the privilege to be here and spend!

I'm feeling artists and creative people from all disciplines should be supportive of each other under the circumstances but the sad truth is that it needs some enlightened thinking by someone in government and immigration at least at the local level and that's not something that's likely to happen without some powerful support and a lot of luck.

Maybe after the election .....

[LuckyLemon]

I actually agree with immigration

Foreign musicians should not be playing in bars as they are quite clearly taking money away from Thais

Either by

1) Replacing Thai musicians

or

2) Drawing customers away from other bars that pay Thai musicians

I understand that one of the previously arrested 'amateur musicians' played at a different venue every night and made his living from that playing.

Anyway, I didn't come to Thailand to hear foreigners singing badly when there are so many Thais that can do that.

I make a point of never going to bars that have foreign musicians, there are plenty of really good bars with Thai bands around.

[orang37]

Saswasdee Khrup, TV CM Friends,

Well, think Khun Greenside's eloquent posts really "framed the "big picture issues" perfectly.

If, as reported here, the arresting BIB were from Bangkok (right now we have to regard this as hearsay), then the simple hypothesis of "greed" ari$e$. "Target of opportunity," "low-hanging fruit on branches with no thorns for defense."

Remember a year or two ago when some special squad from Bangkok arrived to temporarily raid Pornthip for software, or the reputedly somewhere 'kanor muang,' 'out of town,' music playing extortion squads ?

Alas, the universal language, music, which can reach across all cultures to the "heart," should be so degraded.

What can we do ? Yeah, we'll write a letter to the Post under a 'nym, but the idea that will have any real impact is ... farcical.

sadly, ~o:37;