5 More Musicians Jailed

Kilgore Trout · May 19, 2011

Who is laughing? I'm pointing out how ridiculously far reaching the law is. It covers, for instance, if someone is here on vacation, answers an email and instructs his/her secretary to "Yes, deposit that check into the operations account." That is 'work', and therefore in violation. It's insane.

But nobody was busted for doing that. As far as I can see the law has been implemented in an entirely appropriate way.

The people who were arrested were playing in bars, working for money under the table, and your sidetracking their crime is just silly.

Are you by any chance a musician, or running a 'jamming bar'?

Because it seems from your comments, and your personal attacks, that you have a vested interest in this subject.

If I go explain to the police (surely depends on who, but I'm sure if I look I will find the right one) that you are doing some work illegaly (i.e. having your secretary deposit a check or doing some gardening at your wife's house) and make it worth his while to come arrest you; what do you think will happen?

Now your power may be greater than mine and the tables may turn, but if not you will be arrested and charged; or forced to make a donation.

If you doubt the possibility of that scenario then you haven't been in Thailand long enough.

"sidetracking their crime" indeed

surayu · May 19, 2011

Yes, you are doing work in Thailand with out a work permit according to the law, full stop.

I begin to doubt your sanity!

Sarah, the Trout is right, that's why there are so many people unhappy with this law, even if might not have been enforced on this way yet(but whom really knows?), it doesn't mean they are not going to start at some point, as this enforcement against the "jammers" is demonstrating, i am sure they wouldn't have thought about this sudden changes too, otherways they wouldn't have been playing that night....be carefull

WinnieTheKhwai · May 19, 2011

Yes, you are doing work in Thailand with out a work permit according to the law, full stop.

I begin to doubt your sanity!

Sarah, the Trout is right, that's why there are so many people unhappy with this law, even if might not have been enforced on this way yet(but whom really knows?), it doesn't mean they are not going to start at some point, as this enforcement against the "jammers" is demonstrating, i am sure they wouldn't have thought about this sudden changes too, otherways they wouldn't have been playing that night....be carefull

Along those lines, *everyone* is breaking the law. If you have a work permit, it specifies the place of work. If you work anywhere else, you are breaking the law. So tough luck if you have to visit a customer, or if you have to visit some place off site. You're a chef at the Oriental? Maybe one time you do a catering function for some event somewhere? Can be thrown in jail.

If course this won't actually happen. The gray legal area mostly works for everyone. But it does mean that Thailand just isn't a 100% safe or sane place to do business, or do just about anything but lie on the beach, drink beer and ogle girls. Oh and visit temples I suppose. This of course costs Thailand money and business in the long run. But I'm not sure that the Powers-That-Be really care.

Edited May 19, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

mesquite · May 19, 2011

Thailand just isn't a 100% safe or sane place to do business, or do just about anything but lie on the beach, drink beer and ogle girls. Oh and visit temples I suppose. This of course costs Thailand money and business in the long run. But I'm not sure that the Powers-That-Be really care.

The Thai system welcomes foreigners who bring their money with them, and why not? Most foreigners come from comparatively rich countries and always have the option of returning to make money.

The best visa going is the retirement visa that is easy to get if you're over 50 and are willing to bring money to Thailand to spend, and NOT WORK! If you want to make money, go to Wall Street or Silicon Valley. Worked for Mark Zuckerberg!

Paagai · May 19, 2011

Wow, this threads still going Must be a slow day.... Can almost hear the mods snoring

Two anonymous people having an argument about who knows the highest ranking policemen is just so wonderful

Oh, well

CMSteve · May 19, 2011

I don't doubt you're knowledge of US tax laws, if I were sitting back home doing my taxes, I would wholly agree.

But, we are in Thailand and are not governed by US laws. Here, you can not "earn a living" while on a retirement visa, and unfortunately, you can not volunteer without a volunteer visa and work permit.

I am not on a retirement visa and will not be able to for decades, but even I knew the laws around this. Unfortunately for these gentlemen, most legal structures do not allow for a ignorance of the law defense....

Not really. Most retirees continue to earn a living (ie pensions, investments, etc),but they do not work. The term semi-retired refers to people that work part time or something less than full time, it has nothing to do with their earnings.

The law in Thailand does preclude a retired person from volunteering, hence the necessity of a volunteer visa and work permit.

I think "retire" by definition means you do not work. Otherwise, you would be semi-retired or not retired at all.

I'm a little confused on what we are talking about in reference to the law be ill defined? Are we waiting for a list of things that can and can not be done?

My personal belief is that there are only two types of people that press for clarification of the law.

1. Someone trying to make a difference, possibly seeing an inconsistency in the law and attempting to define and fix that/those laws.

- these people make these attempt even though they are not in trouble and haven't done anything to break the law.

2. Someone who broke the law and is looking for a way out.

- these people have broken a law and will do anything to make it look like the problem stems from the other side.

Please feel free to add to the list if you know of other people/cases who attempt to clarify the law that don't fit into these two categories.

To retire is to cease 'earning a living'. However, being retired does not preclude one from contributing to society via volunteer work. The subject law bars volunteer work, which is frustrating for many.

As you pointed out there are alternative ways of surviving - receiving money, other than by working. Receiving income via a pension (based upon previous employment) or via investment(s) is not "earning" (unless in the case of investment(s), one is moving the money, or re-investing). What I said was not incorrect. You merely stated examples of receiving money other than by employment and incorrectly referred to it as earning. Those people are retired, and, as I said, if they wished to volunteer without a work permit (for which they are ineligible if on a retirement visa) they would be violating Thai law.

May 19, 2011

According to the Thai law, all foreigners are required to obtain a work permit before work in Thailand. So simple, right?

Thai law defines work as engaging work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefits.

Bad law still a law?

Edited May 19, 2011 by 23423981

Kilgore Trout · May 20, 2011

According to the Thai law, all foreigners are required to obtain a work permit before work in Thailand. So simple, right?

Thai law defines work as engaging work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefits.

Bad law still a law?

Another way they get you by the scrote; according to the law you are not allowed to work until imm. processes your work permit (takes about 6 weeks to 3 months).

How many of you told your employer "I can't work until I actually get my work permit."

And how many of us with work permit did work during this time, thus breaking the law?

elektrified · May 20, 2011

Jamming is not working. It's actually more a form of recreation. Musicians don't get paid to jam.

I refer to my previous post in this thread - Boy, (Took's nephew, guitarist extraordinaire, and proprietor of Boy's Blues Bar) went to Immigration a few weeks ago to find out exactly what the law was with respect to farang and other foreign musicians playing - "jamming" in his bar. He was told by Immigration that it was O.K. for them to 'jam' as long as it was not a regular or weekly kind of gig. Boy told me this personally.

The law needs to be clearly defined.

cm das · May 20, 2011

Thanks, cmdas, I am sure I don't know everything, I've only heard about it forever and played there a couple of times. Nobody's completely innocent. You know stuff I don't about payoffs, etc. etc. . . . but the place does have a good reputation among the musicians I know, and your two yeses above are enough for me to side with the club. But if you've been around you probably have seen that there's noplace at all that doesn't break rules one way or another, and some are left alone by the police and some are not, and many times it has nothing to do with legality. I'm just saying that if the jammers were the kind of jammers I'm talking about (so far nobody's said they weren't, and you yourself say most are casual visitors), then those weren't legitimate busts. If you know different, let us know! No one else has come forward with real details about this, only that it happened and there were some witnesses.

I'm reluctant to post details about people I know, have played with many times over the years and in some cases can call friends of mine. But I'm on north gate's side as well & as you rightly point out, in practical terms disputes like this have little to do with the text of the law & more to do with what "arrangements" are or are not made with the authorities.

Boy, (Took's nephew, guitarist extraordinaire, and proprietor of Boy's Blues Bar) went to Immigration a few weeks ago to find out exactly what the law was with respect to farang and other foreign musicians playing - "jamming" in his bar. He was told by Immigration that it was O.K. for them to 'jam' as long as it was not a regular or weekly kind of gig. Boy told me this personally.

I don't doubt this account. I'm sure Boy and whoever told him that were both sincere. But someone else at immigration could decide otherwise at any time. The issue is not with definition of the law but hazy interpretation & enforcement. It's a part of life in Thailand that we at times love & at times loathe. But for sure if laws were strictly & evenly enforced (at least to the degree they are in the west), then Thailand and many of our lives here would look very different.

sarahsbloke · May 20, 2011

I don't doubt this account. I'm sure Boy and whoever told him that were both sincere. But someone else at immigration could decide otherwise at any time. The issue is not with definition of the law but hazy interpretation & enforcement. It's a part of life in Thailand that we at times love & at times loathe. But for sure if laws were strictly & evenly enforced (at least to the degree they are in the west), then Thailand and many of our lives here would look very different.

If laws were strictly and evenly enforced, like in the west, most of us wouldn't want to live here.

Kilgore Trout · May 20, 2011

I don't doubt this account. I'm sure Boy and whoever told him that were both sincere. But someone else at immigration could decide otherwise at any time. The issue is not with definition of the law but hazy interpretation & enforcement. It's a part of life in Thailand that we at times love & at times loathe. But for sure if laws were strictly & evenly enforced (at least to the degree they are in the west), then Thailand and many of our lives here would look very different.

If laws were strictly and evenly enforced, like in the west, most of us wouldn't want to live here.

I remember a case recently where a guy was caught with the same amount of oxycontin as Rush Limbaugh; he received something like 20 years in jail where Rush got off with probation.

What about OJ?

Agree that it is much, much more "in your face" in Thailand but I would't say laws in the west (at least the US) are strictly and evenly enforced; but...more so than here for sure. At least there is more accountability.

wolf5370 · May 20, 2011

<snip>

I don't doubt this account. I'm sure Boy and whoever told him that were both sincere. But someone else at immigration could decide otherwise at any time. The issue is not with definition of the law but hazy interpretation & enforcement. It's a part of life in Thailand that we at times love & at times loathe. But for sure if laws were strictly & evenly enforced (at least to the degree they are in the west), then Thailand and many of our lives here would look very different.

No, I think the issue is most definitely with the definition of the law. The way the law defines work (and thus requirement to have a work permit) encompasses every action - it therefore applies to any and every non national entering the country at any time. This is patently wrong. The law IS the issue as it affords carte blanche authority to arrest any non national for any action that is not covered by a work permit (like traveling to work - even if you have a WP for that place of work). The fact that it is not usually enforced does not make it a valid law, jus that the authorities try to work with it with some logic. The law needs to be ammended and clarified so immigration, the courts and the police can prosecute it properly and so that visitors (of any type) know where they stand and can avoid breaking the law. As it stands it is undefined and all encompassing which is a ridiculous state of affairs.

montrii · May 20, 2011

<snip>

I don't doubt this account. I'm sure Boy and whoever told him that were both sincere. But someone else at immigration could decide otherwise at any time. The issue is not with definition of the law but hazy interpretation & enforcement. It's a part of life in Thailand that we at times love & at times loathe. But for sure if laws were strictly & evenly enforced (at least to the degree they are in the west), then Thailand and many of our lives here would look very different.

No, I think the issue is most definitely with the definition of the law. The way the law defines work (and thus requirement to have a work permit) encompasses every action - it therefore applies to any and every non national entering the country at any time. This is patently wrong. The law IS the issue as it affords carte blanche authority to arrest any non national for any action that is not covered by a work permit (like traveling to work - even if you have a WP for that place of work). The fact that it is not usually enforced does not make it a valid law, jus that the authorities try to work with it with some logic. The law needs to be ammended and clarified so immigration, the courts and the police can prosecute it properly and so that visitors (of any type) know where they stand and can avoid breaking the law. As it stands it is undefined and all encompassing which is a ridiculous state of affairs.

Kind of reminds one of lèse majesté, doesn't it? Funny about that.

surayu · May 20, 2011

Thai law defines work as engaging work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefits.

-- Break News --

Thai court finally decides to release all those locals which killed a foreigner, after one of those incarcerated admitted pubicly: " he was exterting energy by being alive, i only helped that retired guy to comply with the law....".

In light of this, there are talks now taking places on how to implement this rule on foreigners residing outside of the kingdom, the new project of a nuclear plant (a real plant, they are putting radiations on a Durian) based in Pattaya should help in achieving it.

sarahsbloke · May 20, 2011

Got to agree, avoiding problems with immigration is very easy.

I love it here, if you aren't trying to beat the system, you don't get any problems.

Don't work, if you don't have a permit for the work ....... how easy is that.

But 'I didn't think that counted as work', they blubber ...... yes you did, and it was obvious it was work too, do you all think Thais are stupid?

@Wolf

The difference between Nazi Germany and Thailand is

The Jews were citizens of Germany, they had a right to live there.

Foreigners have few rights in Thailand, nobody invited us to live here.

I think the world would be a lot happier place if every country had immigration laws to protect it's own citizens like Thailand does.

England certainly would be!

Edited May 20, 2011 by Lite Beer

wolf5370 · May 20, 2011

Got to agree, avoiding problems with immigration is very easy.

I love it here, if you aren't trying to beat the system, you don't get any problems.

Don't work, if you don't have a permit for the work ....... how easy is that.

But 'I didn't think that counted as work', they blubber ...... yes you did, and it was obvious it was work too, do you all think Thais are stupid?

@Wolf

The difference between Nazi Germany and Thailand is

The Jews were citizens of Germany, they had a right to live there.

Foreigners have few rights in Thailand, nobody invited us to live here.

I think the world would be a lot happier place if every country had immigration laws to protect it's own citizens like Thailand does.

England certainly would be!

I wasn't intending to draw a direct parallel, merely point out that putting up and shutting up simply because one is happy with their lot - turning a blind eye on that basis alone - is not something one should boast about as if it is the intelligent choice (and to slate others for actually discussing it).

Personally, I agree that it seems to be, so far at least, that immigration has attempted to apply the law with logic - I even stated as much in my last reply - I still think that it is a bad law that needs revising (to help immigration and the prosecution as much as us). I know we have little ability to push for such, but that should not stop us discussing it - I can't change history, but I still can discuss it both in positives and negatives. Where people have outright, blatantly, broken the spirit of this law, then they should only expect prosecution (and hope for leniancy) - and I agree that some people here are knowingly and blatantly breaking the spirit of this law (as people are in all countries and prosecuted to the spirit of those laws too). Of course more sensible approach to immigration and work permit availability would help this, and raise taxes which are currenlty avoided, but that is a whole different basll of wax.

Tywais · May 20, 2011

According to the Thai law, all foreigners are required to obtain a work permit before work in Thailand. So simple, right?

Thai law defines work as engaging work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefits.

Bad law still a law?

Another way they get you by the scrote; according to the law you are not allowed to work until imm. processes your work permit (takes about 6 weeks to 3 months).

Actually it's not immigration but labor department who is responsible for processing it. If it takes 6 weeks to 3 months than it is the employer that is holding it up not labor. Mine only took a couple of days after the employer had the paperwork completed.

jdinasia · May 20, 2011

According to the Thai law, all foreigners are required to obtain a work permit before work in Thailand. So simple, right?

Thai law defines work as engaging work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefits.

Bad law still a law?

Another way they get you by the scrote; according to the law you are not allowed to work until imm. processes your work permit (takes about 6 weeks to 3 months).

Actually it's not immigration but labor department who is responsible for processing it. If it takes 6 weeks to 3 months than it is the employer that is holding it up not labor. Mine only took a couple of days after the employer had the paperwork completed.

Mine (director level) took a total of one week from CNX MoL. I think I could have gone in earlier to sign it ... but it was one week from the day it was submitted that I actually signed it.

Lite Beer · May 20, 2011

A number of inflammatory posts have removed as well as replies to them.

Kilgore Trout · May 20, 2011

According to the Thai law, all foreigners are required to obtain a work permit before work in Thailand. So simple, right?

Thai law defines work as engaging work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefits.

Bad law still a law?

Another way they get you by the scrote; according to the law you are not allowed to work until imm. processes your work permit (takes about 6 weeks to 3 months).

Actually it's not immigration but labor department who is responsible for processing it. If it takes 6 weeks to 3 months than it is the employer that is holding it up not labor. Mine only took a couple of days after the employer had the paperwork completed.

I stand corrected.

But if you worked during those days then you were definitely breaking the law and if immigration had turned up you could have been arrested.

Also, in education (even the top int. schools) I have never heard of them doing it in less than 6 weeks-3 months; the time that it takes for your non-imm B to expire.

They probably do it so that if they don't like you off the bat it is much easier to get rid of you if you don't have a work permit.

WinnieTheKhwai · May 20, 2011

Also, in education (even the top int. schools) I have never heard of them doing it in less than 6 weeks-3 months; the time that it takes for your non-imm B to expire.

They probably do it so that if they don't like you off the bat it is much easier to get rid of you if you don't have a work permit.

I don't understand what you're on about; your non-imm B doesn't expire at all. If the work permit is still pending at the labour department for any reason (most likely your employer not having supplied all required documents) then they just extend it with another month.

Also I think it would be quite a challenge to find a story of anyone was arrested who legitimately applied for a work permit and was working prior to the work permit being issued? I think this scenario lives only in your imagination?

Also it seems to me that the most time taken is at Immigration; they're the ones who easily take a month before granting you a one year stay. The labour department doesnt take that long at all when all documents are supplied. I think it's important to separate the two; once the work permit is issued you're legal. That it takes whatever time before immigration grants you a one year stay and a re-entry permit doesn't affect the legality of doing work.

Edited May 20, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

Tywais · May 20, 2011

Also, in education (even the top int. schools) I have never heard of them doing it in less than 6 weeks-3 months; the time that it takes for your non-imm B to expire.

I work at a major university as do several of my foreign colleagues and my previous comment is based on these experiences. Nothing to do with the visa expiration date.

Kilgore Trout · May 20, 2011

Also, in education (even the top int. schools) I have never heard of them doing it in less than 6 weeks-3 months; the time that it takes for your non-imm B to expire.

They probably do it so that if they don't like you off the bat it is much easier to get rid of you if you don't have a work permit.

I don't understand what you're on about; your non-imm B doesn't expire at all. If the work permit is still pending at the labour department for any reason (most likely your employer not having supplied all required documents) then they just extend it with another month.

Also I think it would be quite a challenge to find a story of anyone was arrested who legitimately applied for a work permit and was working prior to the work permit being issued? I think this scenario lives only in your imagination?

Also it seems to me that the most time taken is at Immigration; they're the ones who easily take a month before granting you a one year stay. The labour department doesnt take that long at all when all documents are supplied. I think it's important to separate the two; once the work permit is issued you're legal. That it takes whatever time before immigration grants you a one year stay and a re-entry permit doesn't affect the legality of doing work.

Ok, let me clarify.

I have worked at a range of schools in thailand; currently work at an international school.

You receive your non-imm B and it is valid for 3 months if no action is taken.

First you go to the labor department and are processed; get your work permit then you go to immigration and get your non-imm B extended.

In my experience the whole process takes anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 months (as I said, some schools stall until time starts to run out, for whatever reason).

I see that some people have been processed more quickly and for them that is good, for myself and most people I know however, that process usually takes longer.

My point is though, that until you actually receive the work permit and it is physically at you place of work; you are not allowed to work under the law; the way it is worded.

Most people I know do work during this time, but point still stands that it is technically illegal.

All I am saying is that this is another way that the vagueness of the law and the way it is usually enforced can put you in a situation where you are technically breaking a law.

yesterday · May 21, 2011

<snip>

I don't doubt this account. I'm sure Boy and whoever told him that were both sincere. But someone else at immigration could decide otherwise at any time. The issue is not with definition of the law but hazy interpretation & enforcement. It's a part of life in Thailand that we at times love & at times loathe. But for sure if laws were strictly & evenly enforced (at least to the degree they are in the west), then Thailand and many of our lives here would look very different.

No, I think the issue is most definitely with the definition of the law. The way the law defines work (and thus requirement to have a work permit) encompasses every action - it therefore applies to any and every non national entering the country at any time. This is patently wrong. The law IS the issue as it affords carte blanche authority to arrest any non national for any action that is not covered by a work permit (like traveling to work - even if you have a WP for that place of work). The fact that it is not usually enforced does not make it a valid law, jus that the authorities try to work with it with some logic. The law needs to be ammended and clarified so immigration, the courts and the police can prosecute it properly and so that visitors (of any type) know where they stand and can avoid breaking the law. As it stands it is undefined and all encompassing which is a ridiculous state of affairs.

Kind of reminds one of lèse majesté, doesn't it? Funny about that.

I am sorry I upset you to the point of you sending me a rude inflammatory private message . Therefore I will try to explain my humor on this particular thread.

"The click your heels 3 time" is from the Wizard of Oz ,a classic and was somewhat of a joke but at the same time a reminder to everyone upset with Thailand due to the arrest of people working without proper documents. The point iwas simply unlike Nazi Germany's Jewish community, that some of you guys found the need to compare Thailand situation too, we are not locked up in camps here ,we have a free choice to stay or go home. We as tourist and/or non immigrant visa holders are in no position and never will be to confront Thai law.Regardless I do apologise for not being clear and/or making fun which apparently is inflammatory.Do try to remember when you are in situations that you find yourself with no real control over the best thing to do is laugh at it and move on.

Edited May 21, 2011 by yesterday

Gonzo the Face · May 21, 2011

Also, in education (even the top int. schools) I have never heard of them doing it in less than 6 weeks-3 months; the time that it takes for your non-imm B to expire.

They probably do it so that if they don't like you off the bat it is much easier to get rid of you if you don't have a work permit.

I don't understand what you're on about; your non-imm B doesn't expire at all. If the work permit is still pending at the labour department for any reason (most likely your employer not having supplied all required documents) then they just extend it with another month.

Also I think it would be quite a challenge to find a story of anyone was arrested who legitimately applied for a work permit and was working prior to the work permit being issued? I think this scenario lives only in your imagination?

Also it seems to me that the most time taken is at Immigration; they're the ones who easily take a month before granting you a one year stay. The labour department doesnt take that long at all when all documents are supplied. I think it's important to separate the two; once the work permit is issued you're legal. That it takes whatever time before immigration grants you a one year stay and a re-entry permit doesn't affect the legality of doing work.

Ok, let me clarify.

I have worked at a range of schools in thailand; currently work at an international school.

You receive your non-imm B and it is valid for 3 months if no action is taken.

First you go to the labor department and are processed; get your work permit then you go to immigration and get your non-imm B extended.

In my experience the whole process takes anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 months (as I said, some schools stall until time starts to run out, for whatever reason).

I see that some people have been processed more quickly and for them that is good, for myself and most people I know however, that process usually takes longer.

My point is though, that until you actually receive the work permit and it is physically at you place of work; you are not allowed to work under the law; the way it is worded.

Most people I know do work during this time, but point still stands that it is technically illegal.

All I am saying is that this is another way that the vagueness of the law and the way it is usually enforced can put you in a situation where you are technically breaking a law.

Maybe its really very simple..... if it takes much longer to get your visa, perhaps its because for some reason they do not like you.......and if you get your visa much quicker they do like you..... maybe it depends on how they perceive a person.....

whatcha think????

Kilgore Trout · May 21, 2011

Also, in education (even the top int. schools) I have never heard of them doing it in less than 6 weeks-3 months; the time that it takes for your non-imm B to expire.

They probably do it so that if they don't like you off the bat it is much easier to get rid of you if you don't have a work permit.

I don't understand what you're on about; your non-imm B doesn't expire at all. If the work permit is still pending at the labour department for any reason (most likely your employer not having supplied all required documents) then they just extend it with another month.

Also I think it would be quite a challenge to find a story of anyone was arrested who legitimately applied for a work permit and was working prior to the work permit being issued? I think this scenario lives only in your imagination?

Also it seems to me that the most time taken is at Immigration; they're the ones who easily take a month before granting you a one year stay. The labour department doesnt take that long at all when all documents are supplied. I think it's important to separate the two; once the work permit is issued you're legal. That it takes whatever time before immigration grants you a one year stay and a re-entry permit doesn't affect the legality of doing work.

Ok, let me clarify.

I have worked at a range of schools in thailand; currently work at an international school.

You receive your non-imm B and it is valid for 3 months if no action is taken.

First you go to the labor department and are processed; get your work permit then you go to immigration and get your non-imm B extended.

In my experience the whole process takes anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 months (as I said, some schools stall until time starts to run out, for whatever reason).

I see that some people have been processed more quickly and for them that is good, for myself and most people I know however, that process usually takes longer.

My point is though, that until you actually receive the work permit and it is physically at you place of work; you are not allowed to work under the law; the way it is worded.

Most people I know do work during this time, but point still stands that it is technically illegal.

All I am saying is that this is another way that the vagueness of the law and the way it is usually enforced can put you in a situation where you are technically breaking a law.

Maybe its really very simple..... if it takes much longer to get your visa, perhaps its because for some reason they do not like you.......and if you get your visa much quicker they do like you..... maybe it depends on how they perceive a person.....

whatcha think????

I think you are wrong because it is the same for everyone at the school; not just me.

Perhaps you can start a poll to see what other people's experiences are.

Until then....keep thinking. You apparently need the practice

Gonzo the Face · May 21, 2011

Very good suggestion...... Thinking..... I have and will continue to do so......It has helped me with keeping only one job in close to 20 yrs now , not a range of jobs.... Try thinking yourself, maybe you too can keep a job for a while...

Maybe a bit of consideration of good manners wouldn't hurt your case either

DavidOxon · May 21, 2011