5 More Musicians Jailed

[ThaiPauly]

Anyone exiting through customs at the airport with what looks like a musical instrument should be given a leaflet explaining how the law here affects musicians, suppose it would be difficult to spot a harmonica though

[DavidOxon]

Is that a harmonica in your pocket or are you just happy to be back in Thailand ...

[Gonzo the Face]

Is that a harmonica in your pocket or are you just happy to be back in Thailand ...

Strange as it may seem, in some parts a harmonica is known as a ' Mouth Organ '

Anybody from or familiar with those parts ?

[orang37]

... as it may seem, in some parts a harmonica is known as a 'Mouth Organ' Anybody from or familiar with those parts ?

Yep, we'uns from them parts where we'd-uh said "mouth organ" as likely as harmonicker. We done taught ourselves how to play one when we was only ten years old.

But, you got to remember that them days was so long ago, long before we had all them modern inventions like satellites, or internet, or fellow-ratio. Back then an "organ" was something in a church, or a bunch of somethings inside some kind of a body: we didn't even know how to think dirty about such a word; we was that naive.

By the way sometime ago, maybe three 'fo years back, we done lost our Hohner chromatic harmonica what give us so much pleasure as we played, roaring around Chiang Mai in the back of tuk-tuks and songthaews.

We had a friend, Arthur, an English man, who was a fine chromatic harmonica player: we used to duet with him, but he passed away, and his widow ... well we thought it might be tasteless to approach her about his harmonica; for all we know it was cremated with him, or is one of her most important 'keepsakes.'

Anyone got a spare chromatic harmonica they'd like to trade, y'all please do contact me by private message.

thanks, ~o:37;

Edited April 25, 2011 by orang37

[yesterday]

This is starting to sound like a kids thread.

Just taking my cue from the poster who mentioned his 'daddy'....bless him

why "wrong is wrong" makes it real simple

why do I need a work permit to sing while my buddy slings booze to paying ,drinking , drunk young people standing in the busy street at night ,why is it wrong,why???,

it is the law and the law is the law as my daddy told me more than once ...

darn simple for most....

the people that can not grasp this fact are indeed the sad ,miserable ones.

This is actually pretty funny, I picture the preacher in one of those old rock and roll moviies ,ranting about the devils music..... Why do you hate creative types, yes they are sometimes "underfunded" and they are not like you (guaranteed) . What have they ever done to you ? This whole scene brought enjoyment to thousands of tourists and locals alike, Some people just hate seeing others enjoying themselves I suppose.

Nobody was ranting about the devils music but you, it seems, in your blurb above, You missed the point .

The bar owners must follow the rules here to sell booze ,to make money thats all. Now the jazz club this owner has the privilege to sell the last legal drug pushed it too far. (I enjoyed this place several times got happily high there ..the 5 liter boxed red wine

The other bar got busted weeks before (which is my fav. music and the cheese burger /pizza is good too) )so the jazz club owner knew what he was doing .The fact he had clients standing out in the street was reallly waving a big flag almost daring the cops to react.

The guys singing, playing on stage got screwed which is nothing new ,the little guy always gets screwed .

This puts it all back on the bar owners that are in the know now ,they must be responsible for all that goes on in thier place of biz. and follow the laws of T-land ,bad or good and not put people in harms way of the "unjust" laws here.

Gte it now?

[yesterday]

Regardless of what view you have of the immigration laws, the tourist could not reasonably be expected to know he couldn't get up on stage and sing a song. That he got to spend the night in a jail cell for it is disgraceful.

At last, a bit of sanity.........

He may have also been deported.

Does any body know the truth about what actually transpired ??

Did a new tourist really get arrested put in jail? Was he one of the "long stay tourist"

Sometimes on a forum you hear what people want you to hear . Roast beef Bob was "in the sun on a beach in California" three days after being arrested for kilos of opium and ganja here in CM..

Sadly he is in a Thai jail quite possibly for the rest of his life..

If some guy here in CM visiting for a few days got on stage,got slammed ,spent the night in a Thai jail, what a story he has to tell his grand children . Hard to believe but it is Thailand and if this really happened our Thai police heros maybe made a very poor call that night.

Edited April 25, 2011 by yesterday

[hehehoho]

More foreigners breaking the law and being punished for it.

Cry me a river.

[Chicog]

I wonder how the winnings get divvied up by the federales? It's quite a chunk of cash ennit?

[CMX]

Personally, I find Thai authorities somewhat xenophobic. Trouble is that tourism brings so much money into the country that they cannot isolate themselves as do N. Korea or Myanmar. On the other hand, most nations do not want expats living there unless they are adding significantly to the economy. Thus, Thai immigration laws are calculated (sometimes contradictorily) to keep out the riffraff while welcoming the fabled "rich' farang.

I had supposed that the "volunteering" prohibition was simply to protect Thai jobs. When proof was difficult to obtain that foreign workers were without work permits, but it was suspected that they were employed with some profit (if only drinks), the police instead enforced the "volunteering" law.

I find this law hateful, particularly because I'd like to volunteer for a number of things, if only to feel that I can contribute. But all I'm allowed to contribute is money, unless I am associated with a religion and documented - which is not possible for me. Things is, however, there is nothing I can do about the situation, even though I think the matter harmful to all concerned.

Sort of like being an "American" just before Geo. W. Bush declared his "crusade" against Iraq. Still, taken with CMU's recent treatment of foreign students, I'm concluding that the country's bosses have much more regard for my money than they do of me as a fellow human being.

[Semper]

More foreigners breaking the law and being punished for it.

Cry me a river.

[huck]

In the middel east people are fighting for democracy.

In thailand the only thing a foreigner is allowed to contribute is money.

And he remains a 2nd rate citizen.

This is not normal.

Other countries in the world countries want those that come to live in their country to partisipate in the society.

So this needs to change in Thailand

The law is the law. But laws are there to be changed.

So Thai Immigation law needs to radically change

Right now it is comparable to Nazi Germany where jews couldn t own land, and had to also report every 3 monthes

Who knows tommorrow we might have to wear an arm band here with a star on it.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

In the middel east people are fighting for democracy.

In thailand the only thing a foreigner is allowed to contribute is money.

And he remains a 2nd rate citizen.

This is not normal.

Other countries in the world countries want those that come to live in their country to partisipate in the society.

So this needs to change in Thailand

The law is the law. But laws are there to be changed.

So Thai Immigation law needs to radically change

Right now it is comparable to Nazi Germany where jews couldn t own land, and had to also report every 3 monthes

Who knows tommorrow we might have to wear an arm band here with a star on it.

you have my vote for the "Drama Queen" award

[Ulysses G.]

It is time to up the meds.

[montrii]

. . . this apparent determination to withdraw the tolerance previously extended to the music scene is plain dumb as well as having ramifications beyond the immediate. . . this attitude threatens Chiang Mai's status as a centre for creative people and the arts. . . Stifle this freedom and everyone, audience and artists alike are the poorer, and I don't mean financially. Musicians need to experience each other's talents close up to allow styles to develop and closed minds will produce just the kind of results they deserve. The tourist authority spends millions of baht on promotion but seems to be miserably complacent about highlighting the value of these kinds of activities as contributing to a visit to Chiang Mai. . . . where is this going to stop? Writers live to write. Photographers are compelled to capture images. Film and video makers take copious amounts of material and make records of festivals, hilltribes and who knows what. Tell an artist they can't show anyone their work. Other than being a much higher profile I don't think there is a fundamental difference and, being the case, we should all view these developments in a serious light. Application of these regulations to the letter of the law could easily turn what many of us regard as home into a much poorer and less attractive place to live.

Hear, hear! I applaud your every word. I myself have jammed at the North Gate, and it was a vibrant and wonderful scene. There were no negatives. I'd like to find out who's at the bottom of this, and what the actual reasons are. Is there anything that can be done?

It's also true that if you do anything to help a non-profit--or any other type for that matter--charitable cause in the Kingdom you can get busted. The work permit rules are that "if it looks like work, it's work." This is clearly not an objective standard: it depends on who's looking at it. Same with the freedom of speech here, all it takes is for someone to accuse another (anonymously, at that!) of insulting the monarchy and the accused can quite possibly end up presumed guilty and tossed in the slammer. These things are really not fringe issues, they go to the heart of deep inequities in the system here.

Edited April 26, 2011 by montrii

[montrii]

More foreigners breaking the law and being punished for it.

Cry me a river.

You know, I try to avoid making negative comments about other people's posts, but this one . . . man, if you really think that way, think a little deeper. Read some of the comments that have been made here. What is "the law," really? Are all laws in all countries right and just? Do you really think that musicians sitting in on a jam session should be against the law, or that people unaware of such a law and just expressing the joy of their musical souls should be punished? Actually I doubt that this really is illegal under the letter of the law, it's probably just some small-minded official's interpretation of it.

I'm sure I'm expressing the thoughts of many people who are reading your mean-spirited and snide comment here, but don't want to dignify it with a comment. Am also pretty sure that if you read this post you'll dismiss it without thinking. But trust me, you need to think again.

[montrii]

. . . a Facebook posting here;

http://www.facebook....150569307950414

The google translation of this is really unreadable. Here's a non-google translation (my own) of Ben Chomphuwong's Facebook remarks. I'm not sure what agency he refers to with "ผู้รักษาสันติราช," but this literally means "persons caring for State peace," and I translate it awkwardly as "State Peace Management Officials."

For the State Peace Management Officials and the Immigration Department, I have a question regarding of an incident which happened in Chiengmai at about 10 PM Tuesday evening and reflected some intentions of theirs which were not consistent with the words "peace" and "state." I'd like to pose the question to the Minister of the Interior as to whether arresting the group of musicians who had come there to promote peace through making music for the public, that group, could you tell me, because I don't know, what did they do wrong? This pertains especially to the arresting of foreigners who came to play songs together with no intention of getting money, but merely from the desire to join this world of ours together and make it as one. Or do the government and the Interior Ministry of this country which I dearly love intend to close the country off and put a cultural wall around it?

There are things plenty more wicked than that going on all over the country, where foreigners are smuggling and selling speed to people, but you go and choose to waste your time doing that sort of stuff: arresting world artists, for some profit and end of your own.

If this event has to end by shutting down the spokesman for live music in Chiengmai, I, Ben Chomphuwong, will not sit by quietly and watch, and will make myself a spokesman, in order to emphasize and point out for all the country and the human beings who live here to see the shamefulness of our moral deficiency and the lack of intelligence and morality of the aforementioned agencies.

Mr. Ben Chomphuwong

Edited April 26, 2011 by montrii

[buddhalady]

Personally, I find Thai authorities somewhat xenophobic. Trouble is that tourism brings so much money into the country that they cannot isolate themselves as do N. Korea or Myanmar. On the other hand, most nations do not want expats living there unless they are adding significantly to the economy. Thus, Thai immigration laws are calculated (sometimes contradictorily) to keep out the riffraff while welcoming the fabled "rich' farang.

I had supposed that the "volunteering" prohibition was simply to protect Thai jobs. When proof was difficult to obtain that foreign workers were without work permits, but it was suspected that they were employed with some profit (if only drinks), the police instead enforced the "volunteering" law.

I find this law hateful, particularly because I'd like to volunteer for a number of things, if only to feel that I can contribute. But all I'm allowed to contribute is money, unless I am associated with a religion and documented - which is not possible for me. Things is, however, there is nothing I can do about the situation, even though I think the matter harmful to all concerned.

Sort of like being an "American" just before Geo. W. Bush declared his "crusade" against Iraq. Still, taken with CMU's recent treatment of foreign students, I'm concluding that the country's bosses have much more regard for my money than they do of me as a fellow human being.

'

'Thus, Thai immigration laws are calculated (sometimes contradictorily) to keep out the riffraff while welcoming the fabled "rich' farang.'

Good comment, good post, many will agree.

But, how many 'rich farangs' who've worked hard and creatively all their lives to be able to retire comfortably with a large pot in the bank will want to come here when all they can safely do is sit and look at the sunset?

A couple of years ago the CM music scene, as well as the art scene, looked as though it was set to explode, with hobby groups in music and theatre successfully involving lots of resident foreigners as well as the jamming. Mixed with the traditional Thai events, it was gearing up to be a great attraction. What now?

The 'right kind' of Western tourists TAT is always trying to attract appreciate a lively nightlife - of which there isn't a lot here without the farang input including the charity and NGO events,, usually involving resident expats. Is all this going to be forced to a sad end?

After the CMU debacle, many will have been discouraged from offering help or joining hobby groups - this is another step in a negative direction for both tourism and residents here. Along with the internation media coverage of the recent unexplained tourist deaths, this is bad news for not only creative residents but also for the number of decent Thais who work in the tourism industry.

Shooting in the foot seems more endemic here every day.

[Dellboy218]

More foreigners breaking the law and being punished for it.

Cry me a river.

You know, I try to avoid making negative comments about other people's posts, but this one . . . man, if you really think that way, think a little deeper. Read some of the comments that have been made here. What is "the law," really? Are all laws in all countries right and just? Do you really think that musicians sitting in on a jam session should be against the law, or that people unaware of such a law and just expressing the joy of their musical souls should be punished? Actually I doubt that this really is illegal under the letter of the law, it's probably just some small-minded official's interpretation of it.

I'm sure I'm expressing the thoughts of many people who are reading your mean-spirited and snide comment here, but don't want to dignify it with a comment. Am also pretty sure that if you read this post you'll dismiss it without thinking. But trust me, you need to think again.

Well Said Sir. You got nowt constructive to say, say nowt.

[blabla1]

A final note. This is not about upholding the law,it's about extortion once again.

[palomnik]

Jailed for making music? Were their songs and playing that bad?

As David Oxon says; this is hearsay and I would not take this seriously for the time being.

If there is any fact in this, then there maybe more in this then just a bunch of guys making a few songs or it`s time to pack our bags, give Thailand the 2 fingered salute and go somewhere else.

It's not hearsay, it's true. I was there when they were busted. Three Farang that we know personally.

[palomnik]

i think the (Thai?) bar owner was arrested too, same as at Guitarman

Well, he's a musician, only a bar owner incidentally and Thai into the bargain so I imagine he'll be putting up a spirited defence in favour of the freedom to play music. Before anyone suggests it, I strongly doubt that a change in Tea Money arrangements has any part to play in this (as was mooted in the Guitarman case) since the NGJC always packs up on the dot of midnight in my experience and is run by locals who have no need to ingratiate themselves with the authorities. The majority of musicians are Thai and in the tradition of minority music venues all over the world, they welcome visiting players without regard to race, gender or, on occasion, talent. The audience includes Thais, expats and visitors of all ages brought together by a shared passion for the music.

The debate about the legality has been done to death in the last thread on this subject and by now we all know it's illegal blah blah, but this apparent determination to withdraw the tolerance previously extended to the music scene is plain dumb as well as having ramifications beyond the immediate.

Firstly, this attitude threatens Chiang Mai's status as a centre for creative people and the arts. OK, it's not New York, Paris or London but I'd venture to say that our city is possibly the best served in SE Asia (outside of Bangkok and who wants to live there?) as far as the arts and cultural events are concerned. The arts, and particularly the music scene, was definitely one of the main reasons I chose to live here and I don't think I'm a lone voice in that. Stifle this freedom and everyone, audience and artists alike are the poorer, and I don't mean financially. Musicians need to experience each other's talents close up to allow styles to develop and closed minds will produce just the kind of results they deserve. The tourist authority spends millions of baht on promotion but seems to be miserably complacent about highlighting the value of these kind of activities as contributing to a visit to Chiang Mai.

Secondly, musicians have to make music. It's in their blood and, like most artistic endeavours, it's the sharing that gives the real satisfaction and seldom, if ever, simply a money thing. Musicians are unlucky in that their craft is more often than not performed in places that are readily accessible to the public and where food and drink are available for those watching, leaving them open to the accusation that they are there to provide customers for a commercial enterprise. Would people go to see, say a jazz gig, if there was nothing there to eat or drink? Probably not many, so you could have grounds to say that they are not the primary attraction although it would be a tough case to argue especially in the face of Asian Logic. Would the bar still have customers if it didn't give space to the band? Lots do.

Thirdly, where is this going to stop? Writers live to write. Photographers are compelled to capture images. Film and video makers take copious amounts of material and make records of festivals, hilltribes and who knows what. Tell an artist they can't show anyone their work.

Are these things so different from what has got the musicians into trouble? I don't think so.

Writers distribute their work as Blogs, many on free platforms like Wordpress whose owners make serious amounts of money from the ads that run alongside the efforts of those simply wanting an audience for their efforts. You Tube, Flickr, Photobucket, Vimeo and a hundred thousand other sites including Thai Visa make their income by providing a platform where the talents of ordinary people can be aired and selling something (in most cases advertising) on the back of it. In fact it's the most widely used online business model and serves the interests of content providers, the audience and the business owners alike.

Are we now heading toward a time when we have to beware of posting our pictures, writing our blogs or even contributing to a thread like this? Whenever a newbie posts a question about working in Thailand, about 10 Old Hands are guaranteed to leap into the thread and (occasionally rather smugly, I sometimes think) point out that volunteering and working online even if unrewarded both require a work permit which in practical terms makes either occupation untenable. I'm willing to bet that those very same people are supporting one or more of the businesses above by virtue of their talents and, if the rules really apply, should be getting out the WP application forms themselves.

Other than being a much higher profile I don't think there is a fundamental difference and, being the case, we should all view these developments in a serious light. Application of these regulations to the letter of the law could easily turn what many of us regard as home into a much poorer and less attractive place to live.

Khun Por (the founder) at the North Gate Jazz Co-Op in happier times.

Well said. We're music lovers. Just like Ubud in Bali is an artist colony, Chiang Mai is a musicians' colony.

[Yuu_CM]

Several farangs got up and jammed with the locals the other night. Not a problem.

I am not a musician. Nor am I 'arty'. In fact, I'm probably as far removed from being an 'arts' person as anyone here. (I'd rather watch horse racing all day than the finest Jazz musician.LOL )

However, I do know a lot of the better Thai musicians around town personally through family and I know they don't resent the westerners playing at all. In fact, they love it. The "they are taking the place of Thai musicians" etc argument thrown up here is laughable. The more the merrier.

[wolf5370]

I find it interesting the arguement that "the law is the law" being thrown around by some (erm two I think). It seems to me that they have not read this "law". If they had, they would see that we all break the law every day just being here - that the definition of work includes the word "work" and thus is undefined. That being said, how can one know if they are breaking the law or not if everything is, by the letter of this law, illegal?

What is needed here (Thailand) is an underground newsletter in both Thai and English wth a good print run - that is free from political sensorship and manipulation - such to raise awareness that "something Is Rotten in the State of Denmark Thailand" via the common people without the vested interests - to make sense without the truth twisting and lies. Preferably Thai run (it is their country - my childrens' included) and running a featrure each print breaking it down and telling it like it is and explaining what it means. A name and shame section would be good too. This is the only way things will change here - with public pressure garnered with truth and free from propoganda - educate the masses and let democracy mean something. I mean this not as a remedy for a few farang musicians, but in general - whether we agree with last year's Red Shirt rally or not, it certainly has given any Thai Government food for thought for a few years to come. People under a communist regime know all but can change nothing, people under a democratic regime can change all, but know nothing.

The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them next. Karl Marx

[CMX]

I have great respect for Thailand's police and military establishments, in the sense that political and economic stability is to be assured by their most serious efforts. I believe that there is little that they would not do, little that they have not done, to assure the present balance of the state. It is thought that stability invites investors and tourists and that such invitations are a very high priority.

If actions speak louder than words, I must recall inaction when yellow shirts occupied BKK airport not long ago, as against the outcome when red shirts protested in town. Visceral thinking may not enjoy the best reputation, but I've drawn some notions from such directions: A telling-it-like-it-is underground newspaper's likelihood of surviving 24 hours is about as great as an ice cube in the sunshine on tarmac when ambient air temperature is over 40. The authorities are alert to organs of communication, and these higher-ups have great powers.

While Marx has much to say yet in evaluating the present state of economic affairs, worldwide, his solutions and prognostications have been, historically speaking, less insightful.

In the cases of our local musicians, is it certain that none were profited by playing, that management was not paying a certain small fee or at least a complimentary beer or two? Anyway, no matter how much one deplores such decisions by the local or national powers, it is necessary (in order to stay here) to submit. Seems suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune is our lot sometimes, or so someone said.

[chiangmaiexpat]

I have great respect for Thailand's police and military establishments, in the sense that political and economic stability is to be assured by their most serious efforts. I believe that there is little that they would not do, little that they have not done, to assure the present balance of the state.

This argument requires some serious mulling over.

The police and military in Burma also upholds order and stability, but do we respect it for that? Hell, no. The executive power derives its very right to exist from upholding law and order, but in addition to that we also expect the executive power to follow proper procedures and act in the interest of the public. Once the executive forces start following their own agenda, or the interests of a money elite, we have a problem, which is clearly the case in Thailand.

Cheers, CMX

[IanForbes]

I agree with Greenside and so many others on this topic. It's too bad you can't get the name of the arresting officer and his superiors who made the ridiculous decisions and spread those names all over Thailand. Make THEM look foolish for a change.

[heybruce]

Clearly there is no criminal activity in Chiang Mai more serious than foreign musicians performing for free in an attempt to show off and/or get a little experience in front of an audience. I sleep better at night knowing the noble BIB are keeping me safe from this sort.

It's a good thing the police have nothing better to do.

[Loaded]

I agree with Greenside and so many others on this topic. It's too bad you can't get the name of the arresting officer and his superiors who made the ridiculous decisions and spread those names all over Thailand. Make THEM look foolish for a change.

and be arrested for defamation. Defamation is a criminal offense punishable by prison and a civil offense punishable by a large cash payment. This is not a free country and everyone, including (nearly) all Thais, is subject to an unjust, unfair and inconsistent judicial and police system. Protesting isn't going to change anything. In fact, if Thais are aware they are being criticized publicly, they will respond and make life more difficult for the next farang they meet. Grin and bear it, or pack up and leave because it isn't fair and nobody cares except a few indignant foreigners.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Loaded

[CMX]

I have great respect for Thailand's police and military establishments, in the sense that political and economic stability is to be assured by their most serious efforts. I believe that there is little that they would not do, little that they have not done, to assure the present balance of the state.

This argument requires some serious mulling over.

The police and military in Burma also upholds order and stability, but do we respect it for that? Hell, no. The executive power derives its very right to exist from upholding law and order, but in addition to that we also expect the executive power to follow proper procedures and act in the interest of the public. Once the executive forces start following their own agenda, or the interests of a money elite, we have a problem, which is clearly the case in Thailand.

Cheers, CMX

Thank you, yes. "Respect" is not the word I should have used since it usually implies admiration. Status quo is in the interest of the establishment (and is the preference of a number of contributors to ThVi too, I find).

How these musicians threatened anything is puzzling, though, unless some unemployed Thai musicians complained to immigration.

[sarahsbloke]

I agree with Greenside and so many others on this topic. It's too bad you can't get the name of the arresting officer and his superiors who made the ridiculous decisions and spread those names all over Thailand. Make THEM look foolish for a change.

Sorry Ian but in this case you are wrong.

I know at least two bar owners who are paying white musicians (cash not drinks) to 'jam' in their bar.

I know one arrested musician who earned his living playing 6 nights a week, he worked in 6 different bars, so that leaves 4 more 'jamming' bars in CM that I don't know who pay white musicians.

I'll PM you the names of the bars and the name of the musician if you like.

The outcome of the arrests is that at least one of the 'jamming' bars is now paying Thai musicians to play in his bar, where previously he was using white musicians. So not only have the arrests been correctly made and taken illegal workers off the market, but it has actually created jobs for Thai musicians, which was really the whole point of the exercise in the first place.

While there is a lot of pretend outrage and righteous indignation on this thread the fact is white musicians are working illegally in CM and bar owners are paying them.

Edited May 6, 2011 by sarahsbloke