Unmarried Thai Sister-In-Law And Her Baby

[fatpig]

Hello,

My 40 year old, Thai national wife is in the UK with an 'Indefinite leave to enter visa' and has been for about 6 months,. Previous to that she was in the UK on a 10 year tourist visa and had to back to back stays of 6 months each.

I am a Brit and in employment, I own a house outright and am financially secure with savings worth a couple of times more than the house.

My wife's sister is 21, unmarried, unemployed and will soon be finishing her schooling and has a 2.5 year old daughter.

I want them to come and visit us in September for 3 - 6 months.

Any ideas what kind of visa we shyould apply for on their behalf? How long does it take to issue from usbmission of documents (approximately) and what is the liklihood of issue given her age and unemployed status?

And finally, what if my sister in law returns home after 6 months and the baby stays on for a further 6 months, is that possible?

Thanks all , lots of questions there so appreciate your reading and responses.

Regards

[7by7]

Off topic post and resonse deleted. Stick to the topic, please.

[7by7]

They should apply for family visit visas. Two applications, one for her and one for the child.

Processing times vary depending on demand; it could be one day, it could be up to 12 weeks. Current processing times in Thailand says 15 working days.

To obtain the visa she has to show that she meets all the criteria. See UK Visit Visa Basics. You will see that 'reason to return' may be the biggest hurdle.

The longest a visitor can stay in the UK on one visit is 6 months; so it is not possible for your sister-in-law to return home after 6 months leaving her baby behind for a further 6 months.

[fvw53]

Only the British Embassy in Bangkok can give you a answer for this complicated issue. In my country it would be a matter of providing financial guarantees but I believe the UK is much more difficult.

[fatpig]

Yeh that 'reason to return' is a tad worrying. She's essentially a young mother with no money - we'll be paying for them and keeping them! That said, she will be staying with us the whole time but the embassy isn't to know that she isn't some tart who will be in Kings cross in days. Hopefully they'll give her an interview and see that punting isn't really an option - she's a large lass and has never been anyway near that kind of scene.

Regards the visa and the nipper staying on, I was thinking about perhaps a schegen visa also and us all going to holland or germany (where I often work) on Month 3 and then return to UK, sister in law going home immediately and baby staying for 6 months (sister in law would return and get a job sorted and be free to do so). That would require a multi visit visa , is that possible as a family visit visa? I ask as my Mrs had a 5 year and then a 10 year tourist visa and did two back to back 6 month trips last year.

Thanks 7 by7

[7by7]

Very few, if any, visit applicants are interviewed these days; in nearly all cases the Entry Clearance Officers make their decisions based on the paperwork alone.

I do not see any problem with showing that she is a genuine visitor; she is visiting her sister. The problem will be showing that she has a reason to return.

All visit visas, even 6 month ones, are multi entry, unless the ECO has a strong, valid reason for restricting the number of entries. See VAT1.3 Visa validity - When to issue a single-entry visit visa

If she wants to apply for a term longer than 6 months she will need to show that she has a valid reason for making regular visits to the UK. One may say that family in the UK is a valid reason, but I would advise going for a standard 6 month one first.

Even with a long term visit visa a visitor can still only spend a maximum of 6 months in the UK on one visit and, usually, a maximum of 6 months out of any 12 in the UK. This latter is a convention, not a rule. But if UK immigration thought that a visitor seeking entry was breaking this convention then, unless the visitor could show that they had a very good reason for spending so much time in the UK as a visitor, then they could refuse entry. If your wife managed to spend more than this time in the UK with a visit visa then she was, IMHO, lucky; see Immigration Directorate Instructions 2.1.9 Frequency and Duration of Visits.

If you do want to take them on a trip to Europe, remember that Schengen visas must be obtained in one's country of nationality or, if different, residence. They will not be able to apply for Schengen visas in the UK if they are in the UK as visitors; they will have to obtain them before leaving Thailand.

In short, there is in my opinion no way your niece will be able to remain in the UK longer than 6 months with a visit visa, nor leave briefly and then return for a further 6 months.

See also Child Visitors.

[VisasPlus]

With respect to 7x7, everything that he has told you is correct. He has not, however, really addressed the visa for the 2.5 year old. The purpose of a visit visa is to visit. Why would you expect the visa officer, or immigration officer on arrival in the UK, to believe that you are asking for a 2.5 year old child to remain in the UK as a visitor for a year. What kind of visit does a 2.5 year old make, especially when the mother has returned to Thailand. It will appear, to anyone who learns what you are hoping to do, that the child is going to the UK to live with you, as children of that age do not normally make "visits" of up to a year to the UK.

There are many other issues involved here, including long term intentions for the child. You might be able to obtain a visa for your wife's sister, depending on her reasons to return to Thailand after the visit, etc, but the child complicates the whole matter. The visa officer will be certainly be looking very carefully at why an unemployed applicant, and her child, would take a 6 month ( or longer) holiday in the UK.

As 7x7 says, Schengen visas will have to be obtained in Thailand before travel. Most Schengen States will require full details of the planned itinerary before issuing visas, including travel plans, tickets, health insurance, etc. It may be very difficult to provide sufficient information to get the visas if they don't have firm travel plans.

[fatpig]

7by7 great stuff - thanks.

regards this

If your wife managed to spend more than this time in the UK with a visit visa then she was, IMHO, lucky;

My wife had a ten year visa and I think, in the months leading up to the two long stays we did three visits of 10 day, 21 day and 8 day . We then came back to the UK full time and she stayed 6 months, we had 3 weeks in Thailand and then a further 5.5 months. I had heard all these tales of woe about the convention but we didnt have an issue. Immigration asked the purpose of the stay and my wife replied it was to stay with me whilst I was studying for a year. Immigration didn't even look up from the passport - just a stamp and a smile.

Wifey then went back to Thailand and was granted a ILE visa. She'll be on that for two year and will then apply for citizenship which, the local council has told me will hopefully be granted as she was in country 3 years prior to the application being made , albeit with a tourist visa.

I think I'll stick the paperwork through next week for the relatives. Perhaps with a good history (wife has been the the UK about 15 times over the years and always left) perhaps they'll grant the the 12 month visa as they granted a 5 year tourist visa to my wife on her first visit./

[fatpig]

What kind of visit does a 2.5 year old make, especially when the mother has returned to Thailand.

No, her mother would come back into the UK after the trip to Europe with her. Her mother would then leave, after a couple of weeks, and we'd take the kid home 5.5 months later. Assuming of course that we get her a 12 month family visit visa.

[fatpig]

The visa officer will be certainly be looking very carefully at why an unemployed applicant, and her child, would take a 6 month ( or longer) holiday in the UK.

Well, the simple answer is to hang out with us. I have the means, my wife has the desire, her sister does too. I cant think of a more genuine case, a lil sister visiting her big sister and taking her baby with her. Its a whole lot more genuine that some 25 year old Thai chick visiting some 55 year old taxi driver from Skeggy, no?

[7by7]

We then came back to the UK full time and she stayed 6 months, we had 3 weeks in Thailand and then a further 5.5 months. I had heard all these tales of woe about the convention but we didnt have an issue. Immigration asked the purpose of the stay and my wife replied it was to stay with me whilst I was studying for a year. Immigration didn't even look up from the passport - just a stamp and a smile.

Still think you were lucky, or rather your wife was. Especially as she told immigration she intended to stay in the UK for a year; which is definitely against the rules for a visitor!

The visa officer will be certainly be looking very carefully at why an unemployed applicant, and her child, would take a 6 month ( or longer) holiday in the UK.

Well, the simple answer is to hang out with us. I have the means, my wife has the desire, her sister does too. I cant think of a more genuine case, a lil sister visiting her big sister and taking her baby with her.

She has genuine reason to visit, and take her baby with her. What she does not have is a genuine reason for leaving her baby in the UK with you while she returns to Thailand.

Its a whole lot more genuine that some 25 year old Thai chick visiting some 55 year old taxi driver from Skeggy, no?

Who are you to judge whether such a relationship is genuine or not! It's the same as someone here judging you and deciding that the real purpose for your sister-in-law leaving her child with you is other than you say.

(BTW, I am 55, but I'm not a taxi driver anywhere and my wife is 49.)

[fatpig]

She has genuine reason to visit, and take her baby with her. Well, I think so. And hope that the embassy will too.

[fatpig]

What she does not have is a genuine reason for leaving her baby in the UK with you while she returns to Thailand.

That depends what you consider genuine, no? And whether you are in a position to say what is or isn't genuine. My personal opinion is that she will have more opportunity to locate a suitable job, pass her probationary period, put her degree to use, source adequate child care and get set up in our Thai house if her sis and I are taking care of the nipper for 5 months. It the final link in the chain and brings together all that we have tried to do for her to improve her lot in life despite being a young mother.

[fatpig]

Who are you to judge whether such a relationship is genuine or not!

Indeed, we are both offering 'opinions', aren't we? Just two posters posting up what we think. I guess the only person who will 'judge' is the embassy bod. Why the negativity?

(BTW, I am 55, but I'm not a taxi driver anywhere and my wife is 49.)

I've no doubt you are just that. Thing is, you seem to have made an assumption that I was talking about you, for some reason! Fact is, we were discussing visas and how applicants may or may not be perceived as 'genuine' by those in position to judge. I was comparing my case to that an aged Brit and his young GF and my personal belief that a lass visiting her big sister is perhaps more genuine that one of 'those kind' of relationships.. I certainly wasn't talking about you, I don't know you. Strange.

Thanks for the responses all the same.

[meatboy]

fatpig you got the answers you were looking for so why question them u seem very niaeve.

[beano2274]

Just a thought, why not legally adopt the child from your sister in law, then she has a genuine reason to go to the UK, ie. bringing the child over to you, she stays for 6 months and makes sure the baby is okay and settled with you both, you then have the child. I am sure you could cancel the adoption agreement and return with the Baby to Thailand.

Maybe my idea is not acceptable or illegal not sure!!!

[fatpig]

Just a thought, why not legally adopt the child from your sister in law, then she has a genuine reason to go to the UK, ie. bringing the child over to you, she stays for 6 months and makes sure the baby is okay and settled with you both, you then have the child. I am sure you could cancel the adoption agreement and return with the Baby to Thailand.

Maybe my idea is not acceptable or illegal not sure!!!

Thought about that but her place is with her mother and they are a good little team. Its a ball ache for just a 5month stay. A real ball ache.

[fatpig]

double post

[fatpig]

fatpig you got the answers you were looking for so why question them u seem very niaeve.

Its not so much that I question them, more so I've responded to a couple of assumptions and further drilled down into a couple of other points for an alternative view (as in VisaThais excellent response). Yes, I am naive. That's why I am on a visa information forum seeking input from other people.

[7by7]

What she does not have is a genuine reason for leaving her baby in the UK with you while she returns to Thailand.

That depends what you consider genuine, no? And whether you are in a position to say what is or isn't genuine. My personal opinion is that she will have more opportunity to locate a suitable job, pass her probationary period, put her degree to use, source adequate child care and get set up in our Thai house if her sis and I are taking care of the nipper for 5 months. It the final link in the chain and brings together all that we have tried to do for her to improve her lot in life despite being a young mother^.

It is not what you or I consider to be a genuine reason; it is what the ECO considers to be genuine under the immigration rules and guidance. Leaving her child with you in the UK for the reasons you list would not, in my opinion, be considered such. Particularly as whoever looked after the child while the mother was attending university could do the same now.

I was comparing my case to that an aged Brit and his young GF and my personal belief that a lass visiting her big sister is perhaps more genuine that one of 'those kind' of relationships.. I certainly wasn't talking about you, I don't know you. Strange.

I never said you were. But your wording, e.g. " 'those kind' of relationships" shows where your prejudices lie.

Inter country adoption is a complicated affair, not to be undertaken lightly. It is certainly not an easy way round the child visit rules!

[fatpig]

It is not what you or I consider to be a genuine reason; it is what the ECO considers to be genuine under the immigration rules and guidance

Quite!

articularly as whoever looked after the child while the mother was attending university could do the same now.

Pure assumption!

I never said you were. But your wording, e.g. " 'those kind' of relationships" shows where your prejudices lie.

Why mention yourself then in such a defensive sentence, then? I have no interest in your wife's age!!!!!

I never said you were. But your wording, e.g. " 'those kind' of relationships" shows where your prejudices lie.

Well, I am sorry that you think that my statement was an adverse judgement, though 'in my onion', I consider a relationship between loving siblings to be, overal and on the basis of averages, more easily recognisable as genuine that I do the average relationship between an aged 55 year old sex tourist and a female 30 years his junior. Now, you're experience of Thailand may be more rounded that mine and I can only speak from experience but after 16 years in the country, knowing the culture and language very well and having met 1000s of expats over the years from diverse social backgrounds (both in business and as employees), I'd say the money shot would be on firmly on Asian family values (sibling love) and relationships rather than casual, economic encounters between people in 'those kind' of relationships.

Granted my time in England is limited but my exposure to date of marriages between 20 somethings and 50/60 somethings are, in the main, 'arrangements' whether they are viewed as such by both parties is up for debate. This exposure has been from casual meetings and general observations, not to mention speaking Thai as well as any 13 year old.

But just in case go on the defensive again, I am not talking about you.

This isn't an opinion formed without knowledge or examination of the facts. And I am sure there are relationships where a 20 something greatly loves her 60 year old partner, love takes many forms.

Though I obviously hit a nerve with your defensive name calling and statements about your wife's age, which - if I am honest - I am not interested in. Rather, I am concerned with facts and the OP.

I think we have gone as far as we can here. Thank you 7by7 for your input though you can keep the name calling.

[7by7]

You seem to dislike my assessment of your chances of success, perhaps those of someone who is not only a professional adviser/agent but also an ex ECO will be more to your liking

With respect to 7x7, everything that he has told you is correct. He has not, however, really addressed the visa for the 2.5 year old. The purpose of a visit visa is to visit. Why would you expect the visa officer, or immigration officer on arrival in the UK, to believe that you are asking for a 2.5 year old child to remain in the UK as a visitor for a year. What kind of visit does a 2.5 year old make, especially when the mother has returned to Thailand. It will appear, to anyone who learns what you are hoping to do, that the child is going to the UK to live with you, as children of that age do not normally make "visits" of up to a year to the UK.

There are many other issues involved here, including long term intentions for the child. You might be able to obtain a visa for your wife's sister, depending on her reasons to return to Thailand after the visit, etc, but the child complicates the whole matter. The visa officer will be certainly be looking very carefully at why an unemployed applicant, and her child, would take a 6 month ( or longer) holiday in the UK.

Despite your prejudices, I do wish you luck. You are going to need bucket loads of it to achieve what you want.

[fatpig]

You seem to dislike my assessment of your chances of success, perhaps those of someone who is not only a professional adviser/agent but also an ex ECO will be more to your liking

Not not at all. If you re-read the post, I thanked you for your factual input. Its the childish name calling, the assertion of me being prejudice the pure assumption that I find rather, how can I say, 'tiresome'.

Despite your prejudices, I do wish you luck. You are going to need bucket loads of it to achieve what you want.

Yes, 'tiresome' is a suitable adjective. If my understanding is prejeduiced , then a fair comment would be that your understanding of such relationships is self deluded.

Well, if I suceed in getting two family visit visas for my sister-in-law and neice, be they 6 or 12 month in duration, I'll be sure to let you the board know.

As I said, we are going nowhere, so how about you make good on that and step aside?

[meatboy]

your going to have to do a lot of thinking about this,the uk gov.are very strict about chidren being brought into the country and left with relatives,there has been a lot of publicity about this so your going to hope they except her story,i would think a visit will be hard to achieve,my wife wanted her sister to visit us in the uk 15years ago that took a lot of paper work from us,so i personly would get your sis.law to apply for a visit only with a date to return back to los good luck.

[fatpig]

your going to have to do a lot of thinking about this,the uk gov.are very strict about chidren being brought into the country and left with relatives,there has been a lot of publicity about this so your going to hope they except her story,i would think a visit will be hard to achieve,my wife wanted her sister to visit us in the uk 15years ago that took a lot of paper work from us,so i personly would get your sis.law to apply for a visit only with a date to return back to los good luck.

Thanks Meatboy

[fatpig]

Thanks for all the advice, Gents. My sister-in-law and Niece were both granted 2 year family visit visas today. Submitting to the frnech embassy ASAP for a couple of schengens now.

Thanks again.

[meatboy]

well done nine times out of ten if their genuine they will achieve their request,make sure you have a jacket for here.

[fatpig]

Yes, I agree. If you look at the thread on visa waiting times, they nearly ALL get their visas. I think its partly the visa agents that try and instil panic in applicants and their spouses.

Let face it, a large number of applicants are from 'those kind' of relationships - which is fine - but they still get granted visas. Its pretty hard to get a refusal.

Anyway - it should be a fun few months and Ive got loads planned for them both. Jackets included. Hopefully we'll get some snow this year too.

Thanks again.

[fatpig]

Just to add, my wife's first visit visa was for 5 years. Everyone said we would have to go for a 6 month visa first and then build up. Total <deleted>. When we applied in a Middle Eastern country, I asked and they said it was purely up to us, so we went for 5 years and it was granted. The second time we went for a 10 year and , again, it was granted.

So, this time when all the advice from forums/bars etc was go for 6 months - again we went for longer - 2 years (as we'll be leaving the UK in 18-24 months) and bang - no issue at all and granted in 13 days.

People just need to chill and realise what the UK has become - a multi cultural society jam packed full of visa carrying foreigners (and many without). I was in London yesterday and I was the minority boy, indeed, it was playing spot the white man.

Just chill folks and all will be granted.

[RAZZELL]

Right, you've got the 2 year Visit Visa's and well done to you.

Is it still your intention for your sister-in-law to visit for 6 months, leave the country, re-enter the UK and then leave the kid with you for another 5 months or so?

I'm amazed you'll get away with this as the intention is surely not to visit (how can a stay of 11 months out of 12 be construed as a visit for a 2 year old?)

Anyway, all the best.

RAZZ