Cambodia Appeals To World Court Over Preah Vihear Temple

[webfact]

Cambodia appeals to World Court over border temple

PHNOM PENH, April 29, 2011 (AFP) - Cambodia said Friday it had asked the World Court to clarify a 1962 ruling about an ancient temple on its disputed border with Thailand as clashes between the neighbours entered an eight day.

The request "for the interpretation of the Court's judgment... concerning the temple of Preah Vihear" was prompted by "Thailand's repeated armed aggression to exert its claims to Cambodian territory", the foreign ministry said.

A clarification by the court was of "the utmost necessity... in order to peacefully and definitely settle the boundary problem between the two countries in the area", it added.

Hopes for an end to the bloodiest fighting between the neighbours in decades appeared to have been dashed after fresh clashes broke out hours after a ceasefire deal was struck on Thursday.

The current clashes are centred around two temple complexes around 150 kilometres (90 miles) west of Preah Vihear, although there were some skirmishes at the ancient site on Tuesday.

Both countries have blamed each other for sparking the violence.

The International Court of Justice in The Hague ruled more than four decades ago that the 11th-century Preah Vihear belonged to Cambodia, but both countries claim ownership of a 4.6-square-kilometre (1.8-square-mile) surrounding area.

"We especially want clarification about the vicinity around the temple," foreign ministry spokesman Koy Kuong told AFP. "Thailand is using unilateral maps to claim our territory."

The structure -- the most celebrated example of Khmer architecture outside Cambodia’s Angkor -- has been the focus of strained relations between the neighbours since it was granted UN World Heritage status in 2008, sparking a series of deadly clashes.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-04-29

[geovalin]

This is wise.

It should have been done since a long time.

Anyway, Cambodia MAY LOSE. This is courageous risk they take.

[Oberkommando]

Almost an exact repeat of events in 1956 albeit in a shorter time-frame.

Events then of course sparked by Thai Imperialism and settled by the International Court of Justice quite rightly ruling in Cambodia's favour. The Thais have never accepted the decision and have through the years had several petulant outbursts due to it.

Interestingly, it was through another, earlier Thai military coup that the worst events of Preah Vihear occured; the Preah Vihear Massacre of Cambodian civilians by the Thai Army, killing at least 3,000 and with another 7,000 missing.

[rubl]

Almost an exact repeat of events in 1956 albeit in a shorter time-frame.

Events then of course sparked by Thai Imperialism and settled by the International Court of Justice quite rightly ruling in Cambodia's favour. The Thais have never accepted the decision and have through the years had several petulant outbursts due to it.

Interestingly, it was through another, earlier Thai military coup that the worst events of Preah Vihear occured; the Preah Vihear Massacre of Cambodian civilians by the Thai Army, killing at least 3,000 and with another 7,000 missing.

Can't find a link to the 'Preah Vihear Massacre', please provide.

This one though gives some interesting background info on how the ICJ ruling was seen in Thailand

http://preahvihearnews.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/preah-vihear-how-thailand-accepted-the-verdict/

[sirchai]

Almost an exact repeat of events in 1956 albeit in a shorter time-frame.

Events then of course sparked by Thai Imperialism and settled by the International Court of Justice quite rightly ruling in Cambodia's favour. The Thais have never accepted the decision and have through the years had several petulant outbursts due to it.

Interestingly, it was through another, earlier Thai military coup that the worst events of Preah Vihear occured; the Preah Vihear Massacre of Cambodian civilians by the Thai Army, killing at least 3,000 and with another 7,000 missing.

Can't find a link to the 'Preah Vihear Massacre', please provide.

This one though gives some interesting background info on how the ICJ ruling was seen in Thailand

http://preahvihearne...ed-the-verdict/

Sorry, I was trying to find some proof, but it seems that there wasn't such a Massacre. Please provide us with more information, haven't heard it before. :jap:

[geovalin]

ALL the readers of such Thaivisa forum should know that. If not, you cannot understand what is happening now. I do not intend to play the teacher, it's just important.

Here is the story

On June 12, 1979, the government of General Kriangsak Chomanan, who had come to power in Thailand by a military coup, informed foreign embassies in Bangkok that it was going to expel a large number of Cambodian refugees. It would allow the governments of the United States, France, and Australia to select 1,200 of the refugees to resettle in their countries. Lionel Rosenblatt, Refugee Coordinator of the American Embassy, Yvette Pierpaoli, a French businesswoman in Bangkok, and representatives of the Australian and French governments rushed to the border to select the refugees that night. In three frantic hours the foreigners picked out 1,200 refugees for resettlement from among the thousands being held by Thai soldiers behind barbed wire in a Buddhist temple and loaded them on buses to go to Bangkok. The remaining refugees were then loaded on buses and sent away, their destination unknown.

It later became known that Cambodian refugees had been collected from many locations and sent to Preah Vihear. An American Embassy official stood beneath a tree along a dirt road leading to the temple, counted the buses, and estimated that about 42,000 Cambodians were taken to Preah Vihear.[10]

Preah Vihear is situated at the top of a 2,000 foot high escarpment overlooking the Cambodian plains far below. The refugees were unloaded from the buses and pushed down the steep escarpment. “There was no path to follow,” one said. “The way that we had to go down was only a cliff. Some people hid on top of the mountain and survived. Others were shot or pushed over the cliff. Most of the people began to climb down using vines as ropes. They tied their children on their backs and strapped them across their chests. As the people climbed down, the soldiers threw big rocks over the cliff.”[11]

At the foot of the cliffs were minefields placed by the Khmer Rouge during their rule in Cambodia. The refugees followed a narrow path, the safe route indicated by the bodies of people who had set off land mines. The refugees used their bodies as stepping stones to cross the three miles of land mines to reach the Vietnamese soldiers, occupiers of Cambodia, on the other side. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees later estimated that about 3,000 Cambodians had died in the push-back and that another 7,000 were unaccounted for. General Kriangsak's objective in this brutal operation apparently was to demonstrate to the international community that his government would not bear alone the burden of hundreds of thousands of Cambodian refugees. If so, it worked. For the next dozen years the UN and Western countries would pay for the upkeep of Cambodian refugees in Thailand, resettling thousands of them in other countries, and devising means by which Cambodians could return safely to their own country.[12]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have other versions of this story less kind for the Thais.

The next day, the Red Cross representative in Bangkok regretted the Thai action: he had been expelled in one hour.

Edited April 29, 2011 by geovalin

[mrparanoid]

Can't find a link to the 'Preah Vihear Massacre', please provide.

It was described by one survivor in the book "To destroy you is no loss" by Teeda Mam / JoAn D. Criddle

Link to book on Amazon

This is from a blog that is now set to private (

blog

) that referred to the book :

Teeda Mam also described the scene when her bus arrived at Preah Vihear site. She wrote:

"The buses lurched to a standstill. We were ordered out. People refused to budge until forced from their seats at gunpoint. If only we could hold out a little longer without going back across the border, perhaps the order would be rescinded. Everyone knew that shock waves from Thailand's decision to return us were reverberating throughout the world. Thailand's point had been made, and we did not want to be the victims of its strong message that help was needed immediately.

Camping on the Thai side of the border had been made impossible. Refugees, herded like cattle one busload at a time, were funneled between lines of soldiers to the summit of a steep ridge that marked the border, then pushed over. Wielding guns, Thai soldiers shouted, "Go down, Go down." They began shooting at those who refused to start down the face of the cliff." (pg. 251-252)

Shawcross added to the description, "The path down the mountains became steeper, the jungle thicker. Dozens, scores of people fell onto mines. Those with possessions had to abandon them to carry their children down." (pg. 89) Once the refugees began to descend down the cliff, the scene became more horrific. Even after almost three decades, I believe those who descended down the cliff and survived still have a hard time coming to terms with that event. Teeda Mam described this unimaginable descent into hell:

"Below the ridge, we could hear people screaming and moaning. Those who had been forced over the border during the past two days stubbornly refused to move off the mountainside trails, yet the press of refugees from above kept pushing them farther down. The entire face of the hill had been heavily mined by the Khmer Rouge four years ago, and everyone was terrified to break a new trail in the five-mile-wide no-man's-land. Occasionally, a mine exploded as the crowd pushed someone off the trail. Since everyone wanted to step only where they had seen others step, they slid cautiously downward only when forced from above by the pressure of others moving downhill. Descent proceeded at a snail's pace." (pg. 252)

Some of the refugees tried to buy their way out of this deadly descent. Shawcross wrote:

"One group of refugees desperately pooled whatever valuable they had left, filled two buckets with them and walked back up toward the Thai soldiers, carrying a white flag. The soldiers took the buckets and then opened fire on the refugees." (pg. 89-90)

Teeda Mam confirms this cruel account:

"The Chinese gentleman and his party had pooled their Thai money in a red plastic bucket. Quietly, he offered it to the soldier, then asked to be pointed in a direction leading to freedom. The soldier accepted the bucket and motioned with his gun down a side path as he looked the other way. No sooner had the group started down this path, however, than the guard turned and raised the muzzle of his submachine gun. They fell like dominoes." (pg. 253)

I believe that any sane person would be brought to tears by this account, but the story is worse when we realized that it continued for days. Shawcross further wrote:

"For days this operation went on. Altogether, between 43,000 and 45,000 people were pushed down the cliffs at Preah Vihear. It took three days to cross the mine field. Water was very hard to find. Some people had salt. Very few had food. The Thais had distributed at most a cup of rice per person before the buses were emptied. One refugee who finally managed to escape back to Thailand told UNHCR officials: "The crowd was very dense. It was impossible to number the victims of the land mines. The wounded people were moaning. The most difficult part of the walk was near the dead bodies. Tears I thought had dried up long ago came back to my eyes-less because of the sight than from the thought that those innocent people had paid with their lives for their attempts to reach freedom in a world that was too selfish."" (pg. 90)

For Teeda Mam, a survivor of the Khmer Rouge years, what happened at Preah Vihear even surpassed these terrible years. She wrote:

"I thought the nightmare I had lived through for years and the trauma of our escape had exposed me to all the suffering and horrors this world had to offer. I was wrong. Nothing had prepared us for this first night on the trail. Descent from the cliff was like being lowered into the jaws of hell." (pg. 255)

[geovalin]

From the UNHCR (honest International Organization) site in French:

Craignant une réaction hostile des Thaïlandais, le HCR

reste silencieux devant le programme de refoulement le plus important jamais

rencontré par l’organisation depuis sa création. Comme le notera plus tard l’un des

principaux administrateurs chargés de la protection, « la défaillance du HCR

à ne pas protester publiquement et officiellement face aux expulsions massives des Cambodgiens par la Thaïlande en 1979 est déplorable et doit être reconnue comme

l’un des points noirs de son histoire en matière de protection».

Google translation:

Fearing a backlash of Thai, UNHCR remain silent before the repression program the largest ever

met by the organization since its inception. As noted later, one of principal officers responsible for protecting "the failure of the UNHCR not to protest publicly and formally address the mass evictions of Cambodia by Thailand in 1979 is deplorable and must be recognized as one black spot in history for protection. "

[Roadman]

Thai aggression? Of course there has been.

That's been after the French aggression or would that be imperalist inhumanity (ask the Vietnamese) in South East Asia. There was always Thai aggression before that as well. And Burmese aggression on the thai and vice verca.

I guess it is easier years later with the French threath gone to show your displeasure at the Frogs behaviour. The thai's if I remember asked for the water shield to be the boundary. The French set the boundaries to where they wanted. One only has to recall WW2 for the Thai's swooning to the Japanese imperialist ownership. Bow to the Froggie little thai man...

Share putting the site and the two best accesses and any then land locked land from each country into shared country ownership for both countries registered with the World Heritage Park for both their cultural and finacial benefits.

[webfact]

PREAH VIHEAR DISPUTES

Cambodia to appeal to World Court for verdict explanation

By Xinhua

Cambodia will appeal to the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to explain the Hague's verdict in 1962 in order to end the border dispute between Cambodia and Thailand over the disputed area next to the 11th century Preah Vihear temple, said Prime Minister Hun Sen on Thursday.

"The border dispute between Cambodia and Thailand cannot be settled bilaterally, and the Asean also cannot settle on this border issue, the Asean just prevents from further fighting," the premier said during a rare press conference on Thursday at the Government House. "Even the United Nations Security Council does not take action, but Cambodia has its own path."

"Cambodia will sue to the International Court of Justice to explain the Hague's verdict in 1962," he said. "The complaint to the ICJ will probably do after the meeting of the Asean foreign ministers on February 22."

"We don't ask the court to open hearing again, but explain the court's verdict to Cambodia and Thailand," he said.

"If the court explains the disputed land belongs to Thailand, we will accept it, but if the court explains that the land belongs to Cambodia, Thailand should also agree too," he said.

Cambodia and Thailand have had border conflict just a week after Cambodia's Preah Vihear temple was enlisted as the World Heritage Site on July 7, 2008.

The International Court of Justice awarded the Preah Vihear temple to Cambodia in 1962, but Thai claim of the ownership of 1.8 square miles (4.6 sq km) of scrub next to the temple, triggering a military build-up along the border and periodic clashes between Cambodian and Thai soldiers, has resulted in the deaths of troops on both sides.

The latest clashes on February 4-7, a barrage of artillery shells unleashed on both sides of the border, had had claimed the lives of soldiers and civilians on both sides and also caused tens of thousands of the two countries' villagers near the disputed areas fleeing for safe shelters.

-- The Nation 2011-04-29

[dangman]

how can people be so heartless..

thank you for sharing the story with those of us who were unaware.

beyond this, i have no words.. that is one of the cruelest things i've ever heard of.

[Steely Dan]

"We don't ask the court to open hearing again, but explain the court's verdict to Cambodia and Thailand," he said.

"If the court explains the disputed land belongs to Thailand, we will accept it, but if the court explains that the land belongs to Cambodia, Thailand should also agree too," he said.

This is a very shrewd move by Cambodia. They have from the start sought outside mediation and agreed to neutral observers. Whatever the truth behind who initiated hostilities it is imho Thailand who have come across as intransigent.

Should any clarification go in Thailand's favour then Cambodia have not lost control of the temple itself and the revenues that brings. Should the ruling go in Cambodia's favour then Thailand have lost everything including face.

I hope the ICJ can clarify matters quickly in order to stop people being killed because of politics.

[Krungbin]

This, perhaps, explaining oberkommando's views: http://cwcinternational.wordpress.com/2010/05/17/khmers-in-norway-commemorate-the-deaths-of-khmer-refugees-dumped-in-dangrek-mountains-by-thai-troops/

Almost an exact repeat of events in 1956 albeit in a shorter time-frame.

Events then of course sparked by Thai Imperialism and settled by the International Court of Justice quite rightly ruling in Cambodia's favour. The Thais have never accepted the decision and have through the years had several petulant outbursts due to it.

Interestingly, it was through another, earlier Thai military coup that the worst events of Preah Vihear occured; the Preah Vihear Massacre of Cambodian civilians by the Thai Army, killing at least 3,000 and with another 7,000 missing.

Can't find a link to the 'Preah Vihear Massacre', please provide.

This one though gives some interesting background info on how the ICJ ruling was seen in Thailand

http://preahvihearne...ed-the-verdict/

Sorry, I was trying to find some proof, but it seems that there wasn't such a Massacre. Please provide us with more information, haven't heard it before. :jap:

[cardholder]

This, perhaps, explaining oberkommando's views: http://cwcinternatio...by-thai-troops/

Krungbin, thanks for sharing this. I was certainly not aware of this inhumane act.

I was ignorant of events in South East Asia and only since coming to Thailand have I started to learn more. A visit to the Killing Fields last month was an eye-opener. This treatment of the Cambodian refugees would have presumably coincided with the fall of the Khmer Rouge.

I also understand that Thailand provided Pol Pot with a home in Trat.

Perhaps you can educate me further, over a coffee and biscuit, when you are next in the area.

[Robby nz]

Interesting to note that the refugees in question were fleeing from Pol Pot who, later when the Vietnamese pushed him out was welcomed by Thailand (probably because he had all of Cambodies money).

Also interesting to see how far the borders have moved over the centuries.

At one stage the Khamere kingdom streached down to Ayutthaya.

Later after the decline of the Khamere empire and before the French drew their maps Ankor was a part of Thailand.

If what I read is correct Thailand were forced to accept the French maps under threat when French gunboats turned up in the river at BKK.

[Krungbin]

Indeed, I will share coffee and biscuits with pleasure as there is far much more to say on the subject!

But...instead of limiting oneself at looking only at either Thai or Cambodian responsibilities, one should dig a little bit in the past and have a very serious look at Vietnamese and French involvments too!

This, perhaps, explaining oberkommando's views: http://cwcinternatio...by-thai-troops/

Krungbin, thanks for sharing this. I was certainly not aware of this inhumane act.

I was ignorant of events in South East Asia and only since coming to Thailand have I started to learn more. A visit to the Killing Fields last month was an eye-opener. This treatment of the Cambodian refugees would have presumably coincided with the fall of the Khmer Rouge.

I also understand that Thailand provided Pol Pot with a home in Trat.

Perhaps you can educate me further, over a coffee and biscuit, when you are next in the area.

[barrybankruad]

Indeed, I will share coffee and biscuits with pleasure as there is far much more to say on the subject!

But...instead of limiting oneself at looking only at either Thai or Cambodian responsibilities, one should dig a little bit in the past and have a very serious look at Vietnamese and French involvments too!

This, perhaps, explaining oberkommando's views: http://cwcinternatio...by-thai-troops/

Krungbin, thanks for sharing this. I was certainly not aware of this inhumane act.

I was ignorant of events in South East Asia and only since coming to Thailand have I started to learn more. A visit to the Killing Fields last month was an eye-opener. This treatment of the Cambodian refugees would have presumably coincided with the fall of the Khmer Rouge.

I also understand that Thailand provided Pol Pot with a home in Trat.

Perhaps you can educate me further, over a coffee and biscuit, when you are next in the area.

For an interesting history of what has been going on on the Thai Cambodian border over the last 30 years go to

http://www.websitesrcg.com/border/border-history-1.html

[Skywalker69]

how can people be so heartless..

thank you for sharing the story with those of us who were unaware.

beyond this, i have no words.. that is one of the cruelest things i've ever heard of.

Heard about Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge they slaughter about +1 700 000 of their own people.

[rubl]

The late 70's were very trying times in this region. Many massacres, atrocities, bloodshed. 1,700,000 deaths in Cambodia by the hands and actions of fellow Cambodians (including the Khmer Rouge). No offense, but the thousands of Khmer / Khmer Rouge refugees who allegedly died on the forced death march through minefields near Preah Vihear in 1979 seem but a very small drop in a bucket already overflowing. One death is one too many, but after 1,700,000 I do get a bit de-sensitized.

Rather than saying 'see THEY cannot be trusted' start saying 'see WE should work TOGETHER to make sure this cannot happen anymore' !

IMHO

Edited April 29, 2011 by rubl

[Skywalker69]

The late 70's were very trying times in this region. Many massacres, atrocities, bloodshed. 1,700,000 deaths in Cambodia by the hands and actions of fellow Cambodians (including the Khmer Rouge). No offense, but the thousands of Khmer / Khmer Rouge refugees who allegedly died on the forced death march through minefields near Preah Vihear in 1979 seem but a very small drop in a bucket already overflowing. One death is one too many, but after 1,700,000 I do get a bit de-sensitized.

Rather than saying 'see THEY cannot be trusted' start saying 'see WE should work TOGETHER to make sure this cannot happen anymore' !

IMHO

Good post rubl. Thanks!

[jdinasia]

"We don't ask the court to open hearing again, but explain the court's verdict to Cambodia and Thailand," he said.

"If the court explains the disputed land belongs to Thailand, we will accept it, but if the court explains that the land belongs to Cambodia, Thailand should also agree too," he said.

This is a very shrewd move by Cambodia. They have from the start sought outside mediation and agreed to neutral observers. Whatever the truth behind who initiated hostilities it is imho Thailand who have come across as intransigent.

Should any clarification go in Thailand's favour then Cambodia have not lost control of the temple itself and the revenues that brings. Should the ruling go in Cambodia's favour then Thailand have lost everything including face.

I hope the ICJ can clarify matters quickly in order to stop people being killed because of politics.

The issue in this one might be that the original hearing MIGHT need to be reopened. The reason the Cambodians asked for it not to be reopened might be that it wouldn't go as well for them this time compared to the past when the structure and make-up of the group was far different.

IF it were reopened, it would certainly offer an opportunity to put in some peacekeepers in that specific area and maybe clear the rest of the mines from the area!

[webfact]

Cambodia seeks ICJ clarification on Preah Vihear

By SUPALAK GANJANAKHUNDEE

THE NATION

Cambodia has asked the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to clarify its 1962 ruling over the Hindu temple of Preah Vihear as its military clashes with Thailand continued after a truce.

"The submission of this request has been prompted by Thailand's repeated armed aggression to exert its claims to Cambodian territory, on the basis of its own unilateral map that has no legal basis," said a Cambodian Foreign Ministry statement issued yesterday.

The ICJ ruled in 1962 that "the temple of Preah Vihear is situated in territory under sovereignty of Cambodia", but Bangkok argues that the court ruled only that the sandstone ruin belongs to Cambodia while the areas surrounding the Hindu temple belong to Thailand.

The court based its judgement on a French-made 1:200,000-scale map that indicated the boundary line between Siam, as Thailand was then known, and French Indochina.

Thailand argued that the boundary line should follow the watershed of the Phnom Dangrek Mountains in accordance with the 1904 and 1907 Franco-Siamese treaties. The disputed territory is a 4.6-square-kilometre area surrounding Preah Vihear.

Phnom Penh exercised its rights in accordance with Article 60 of the ICJ Statute, which says: "The judgement is final and without appeal. In the event of dispute as to the meaning or scope of the judgement, the Court shall construe it upon the request of any party."

There have been many armed skirmishes in the border area since Cambodia managed to get Preah Vihear listed as a World Heritage Site in 2008, against Thailand's wishes. Bangkok feared Cambodia would turn the disputed areas adjacent to the temple into a buffer zone for management of the property.

Phnom Penh considers the request for ICJ clarification a preventive measure to avoid further armed conflict between the two countries, to stop loss of lives and to preserve the Hindu temple from serious damage.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said his government had anticipated that Cambodia would request an ICJ clarification and that Thailand had organised a legal team to fight in court.

"We don't have a disadvantage in fighting in the world court. We are well prepared in terms of legal aspects and facts," Abhisit said.

The border conflict between the two countries has extended to other areas including near Ta Muan Thom and Ta Kwai temples in Surin province, about 150 kilometres west of Preah Vihear, since last week. The fighting has continued despite military commanders in the area reaching a ceasefire deal on Thursday.

The fresh clash after the truce killed a Thai military ranger and injured five others. Both sides blamed each other for firing first.

Thai Army chief Prayuth Chan-ocha said the clash took place because Cambodian soldiers threw grenades at the Thai side and Thai troops fired small arms to retaliate.

However, Prayuth said he remained hopeful of achieving peace with Cambodia, saying the latest clash might be caused simply by undisciplined soldiers who did not obey their commanders' instructions to cease fire.

A Cambodian commander accused Thai soldiers of firing first. "They began firing artillery shells at our troops at Ta Krabei [Ta Kwai] temple at 4.50am," Suos Sothea, deputy commander of the artillery unit, told Xinhua news agency by telephone from the battlefield yesterday.

"Thai troops may not respect their superiors because on Thursday, their military commander met with our commander and reached a ceasefire, but this morning they still shell us.

"However, we did not fight back, as we are complying with the ceasefire," he said.

-- The Nation 2011-04-30

[BuckarooBanzai]

A lot of finger pointing but the beautiful silence out there means something is working right. Hoping both armies disperse soon and let the locals get back to living their life.

[chuang]

how can people be so heartless..

thank you for sharing the story with those of us who were unaware.

beyond this, i have no words.. that is one of the cruelest things i've ever heard of.

Why the world has done nothing about it, especially the western world and so-called Human Rights Champions...

[mrparanoid]

The late 70's were very trying times in this region. Many massacres, atrocities, bloodshed. 1,700,000 deaths in Cambodia by the hands and actions of fellow Cambodians (including the Khmer Rouge). No offense, but the thousands of Khmer / Khmer Rouge refugees who allegedly died on the forced death march through minefields near Preah Vihear in 1979 seem but a very small drop in a bucket already overflowing. One death is one too many, but after 1,700,000 I do get a bit de-sensitized.

Rather than saying 'see THEY cannot be trusted' start saying 'see WE should work TOGETHER to make sure this cannot happen anymore' !

IMHO

Allegedly? It was confirmed by UNHCR (he UN's refugee agency), and documented by journalists from all over the world (William Shawcross, Roland Pierre Paringaux of Le Monde and Henry Kamm of the New York times to name a few). And just becuase so many people had already died, does that make it ok to kill some more? Because it's just "a very small drop in a bucket" compared to the approximately 1,700,000 deaths at the hands of the Khmer Rouge? (In addition to the hundreds of thousands who died during the American bombings from 1969-75(*) - is this also a very small drop in a bucket?)

What makes this specific episode much worse than any other I have heard of in South East Asia (even worse than other episodes like the one in November 1976 when a group of Cambodian refugees was handed back across the border to the Khmer Rouge and were then all immediately executed by the Khmer Rouge.(**)) is that these were refugees who had managed to live through 4 years of the worst hell anyone could possibly imagine, escape across the border thinking they were safe.. just to be inhumanely herded up and forced down a hill which is known to be riddled with mines rather than being sent into Cambodia from any of the other countless border crossings. They deliberately CHOSE this specific area to force them back into Cambodia. The Thais were using the lives of these Cambodians to make a point. (***)

* link

Five minutes after his conversation with Nixon ended, Kissinger called General Alexander Haig to relay the new orders from the president: "He wants a massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. He doesn't want to hear anything. It's an order, it's to be done. Anything that flies, on anything that moves. You got that?" The response from Haig, barely audible on tape, sounds like laughter.

* link

At least 1.7 million are thought to have died from execution, starvation, overwork and medical neglect by January 1979 when Vietnamese and renegade Khmer Rouge forces "liberated" the country. Some genocide investigators believe the 1975-9 holocaust tally could rise to over two million as more mass graves are discovered and mapped. Inevitably, with the limited forensic work done so far, there will be questions about when some of those graves were actually filled. "Many of those killed in the bombing were just vaporized," notes Craig Etcheson, a leading American researcher. "According to documents and research, the figures for people who died during that time [1969-75], would be around 700,000 to 800,000," Hun Sen estimated. Some Western demographers and scholars have come up with similar estimates, placing "excess deaths" in the 6-800,000 range. But Etcheson cautions that this is a "terribly difficult question— one about which there is no scholarly consensus and not enough empirical data to resolve in any satisfactory way. "Most of them were not army but civilians," said Hun Sen. "Some villages were totally destroyed." He recalled a personal close call in early 1973 in a village near his base in Kompong Cham province where he had attended a wedding. In the early hours of the following morning, B52s struck. "Everybody died except for one small child who was still sucking the breast of its dead mother. That is the tragedy we suffered." In Sideshow, author William Shawcross reports the story of a young air force captain, Donald Dawson, who was court-martialed for refusing to fly after learning that a Cambodian wedding party had been "boxed" by B52s. "It forced him, he said, to realize that Cambodians were human beings and to recognize that non-military targets were being hit," wrote Shawcross. One US diplomat at the embassy in Phnom Penh in 1973, where the bombing was being orchestrated, was appalled to discover that the size of a B52 "box" made it almost impossible not to hit a village in central Cambodia.

** link

From the book "

Refugee Workers in the Indochina Exodus, 1975-1982"

By Larry Clinton Thompson

and ***

[mrparanoid]

BTW, The Thais do have a long history of violent and heartless massacres of unarmed civilians, protesters and refugees.. as it's off topic in this thread I will not post details (unless anyone specifically asks for it).

Edited April 30, 2011 by mrparanoid

[Patronus]

BTW, The Thais do have a long history of violent and heartless massacres of unarmed civilians, protesters and refugees.. as it's off topic in this thread I will not post details (unless anyone specifically asks for it).

Oh, go on then - don't be a tease.

[rubl]

BTW, The Thais do have a long history of violent and heartless massacres of unarmed civilians, protesters and refugees.. as it's off topic in this thread I will not post details (unless anyone specifically asks for it).

Oh, go on then - don't be a tease.

Better not, but if mrparanoid is undeterred, he should include details on some of the stuff the Cambodians did as well. Just to create a balanced view

[cardholder]

BTW, The Thais do have a long history of violent and heartless massacres of unarmed civilians, protesters and refugees.. as it's off topic in this thread I will not post details (unless anyone specifically asks for it).

Oh, go on then - don't be a tease.

Better not, but if mrparanoid is undeterred, he should include details on some of the stuff the Cambodians did as well. Just to create a balanced view

What did the Cambodians do ?

[rubl]

BTW, The Thais do have a long history of violent and heartless massacres of unarmed civilians, protesters and refugees.. as it's off topic in this thread I will not post details (unless anyone specifically asks for it).

Oh, go on then - don't be a tease.

Better not, but if mrparanoid is undeterred, he should include details on some of the stuff the Cambodians did as well. Just to create a balanced view

What did the Cambodians do ?

You mean apart from killing about 20 - 25% of their own population in the 1975 - 1979 time frame ?