Alcoholism

[SpoliaOpima]

I want to know, why all the fear? AA is clearly a program that works for a lot of people. Some of those folks are testifying to that fact. I am testifying to that fact. Truly millions are able to achieve and maintain sobriety through AA.

What we are not getting here is the testimony of the OTHER millions who achieved sobriety without AA. The science tells us that they are out there. I'm not afraid to acknowledge other choices.

Alcoholism is a disease, but it is a disease of the MIND. I wasn't an alcoholic when I was eight years old. I was a happy kid. I started using alcohol in the Army to escape from the boredom and fear. Fear is what brought most folks to alcoholism. Fear of failure in our careers, fear of dealing with our demons, fear, fear, fear.

When I said that AA is a safe harbor what I meant is that the dogma of AA keeps some people sober by attending meetings and being constantly reminded of their WEAKNESS. They FEAR being open to other ideas. There were old timers that I knew who avoided people, places and things because they were AFRAiD to test their core beliefs. OK, I have no problem with that if it keeps them sober.

For me I don't want to live a fear based life. I want to be attracted to my life and every day I find new and wonderful reasons to achieve that. A perfect demonstration of that is I was looking for scientific data to convince Mobi to commit to AA because I was, like some of you, convinced that AA WAS THE ONLY WAY. The science says otherwise. Mobi presented some of that science and it was completely ignored or attacked.

The facts remain. Many people stop drinking on their own. The 12 steps were created by man. The genesis of the program evolved from the minds of men. There exists many parallel paths that all lead to the same place. AA is a place to support folks to get stabilized and stop drinking, but it works by dogma. I found it limiting me in my quest to RE-BALANCE my life. The switch in my brain that got flipped and caused me to become dependent on substances needed to get switched back. AA had it's hand on the switch holding it for me for awhile and that's exactly what I needed then. Now I hold the switch. My higher power is me. I am not afraid of anything because I know what I am about. AA limited me after I had achieved two years I felt confined by AA.

I want to be free of fear to explore my world and not limit myself. There is no god. God is in each and every one of us. That's the reason why it doesn't matter what we choose as a higher power because it is and always was us. We are only taking back what was always ours.

If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, but if you teach a man to fish you feed him for life.

After I moved to a new city I was fortunate to meet a guy who was a professional bass fisherman. He took me under his wing and we went out fishing every chance we got. He taught me how to catch them, but going out a catching a big one on my own was a most awesome experience.

In every study of people living by dogma the facts show that they actually do worse at making proper choices than people who know how to fish.

Well said. The point is we all want to share experiences and information on the subject. We all have something to share. It's a shame when only one point of view is tolerated (not talking about moderation here). It's nice to hear from people who have been successful in beating down the drink monster via whatever path they have chosen.

[kerryk]

Folks keep saying that AA works fine as long as you follow the program. Obviously that dictum also applies to any approach. Any have the potential for success if you follow the dictates of that particular program. It's as true for the number 1 approach as it is for the bottom of the list. Therefore the likelihood of following or not following a program correctly is automatically factored into the stats that rank AA rather low on the list (referenced in an earlier post).

Perhaps one reason AA ranks low is because it's not so easy to follow the program, which requires attendance at meetings for life. Maybe another reason is that it mainly uses just one front, fellowship, while some of the more successful programs add physical and pschological therapy.

A lot of people like to say they don't believe in stats or in scientific studies. Yet even AAers are always talking about the disease model - a scientific approach which apparently has some validation in scientific studies. So it becomes a case of accepting studies that agree with your opinion, and rejecting those that do not. Not very scientific.

If you claim to respect empirical investigation, then you have to look at the actual published studies in the area of addiction and substance abuse. AA does not fare very well, overall, in these. Alcoholism is a medical problem, and medical research has advanced a bit since the 1930s.

By all means try AA, but if it doesn't work for you, try something else.

I would be interested in reading about anyone who has used another program to successfully stop drinking long term. Stop drinking means the person does not drink.

I really don't think you have read this thread very well. I don't think there are any examples of another program stopping anyone drinking long term.

Perhaps you have some positive input to share about what program you used to stop drinking. I would love to hear it.

Please don't interpret my post as a request for negative posts about AA. There have been enough of those in this thread already.

I frankly don't understand why a person who still drinks or one who has a very short period of sobriety would be advising others on how to stop drinking.

I don't see how stories about, “tough it out and go it alone”, serve much purpose. If you have a structured alternative to AA in Thailand that you have tried and it worked for you, please let us all know about it.

[GrahamF]

Folks keep saying that AA works fine as long as you follow the program. Obviously that dictum also applies to any approach. Any have the potential for success if you follow the dictates of that particular program. It's as true for the number 1 approach as it is for the bottom of the list. Therefore the likelihood of following or not following a program correctly is automatically factored into the stats that rank AA rather low on the list (referenced in an earlier post).

Perhaps one reason AA ranks low is because it's not so easy to follow the program, which requires attendance at meetings for life. Maybe another reason is that it mainly uses just one front, fellowship, while some of the more successful programs add physical and pschological therapy.

A lot of people like to say they don't believe in stats or in scientific studies. Yet even AAers are always talking about the disease model - a scientific approach which apparently has some validation in scientific studies. So it becomes a case of accepting studies that agree with your opinion, and rejecting those that do not. Not very scientific.

If you claim to respect empirical investigation, then you have to look at the actual published studies in the area of addiction and substance abuse. AA does not fare very well, overall, in these. Alcoholism is a medical problem, and medical research has advanced a bit since the 1930s.

By all means try AA, but if it doesn't work for you, try something else.

With all due respect, fellowship is only one part of AA. Take a look at the AA symbol, it says, Service, Unity and Recovery. There are three parts to AA:

Unity is the fellowship.

Service can be sometimes thought of as making coffee, being a groups treasurer, whatever. However, in the case of the symbol it is usually considered to be spreading the message to, and working with other alcoholics.

Recovery, in its simplest form, is generally referring to working the 12 steps and continually practicing 10, 11 & 12 in your daily life. Not that you can't do the steps again and again. Sometimes people refer to the steps as the program, admittedly its a term that can be a little ambiguous as it can mean different things to different people. If someone is working 10-12 daily then sometimes it's called being in the spirit.

The fellowship is important and can be extremely supportive, but it is not the key to recovery. I enjoy the social aspects of meetings, but my primary purpose when at a meeting is to spread the word about recovery and finding other alcoholics to work with. I know many AA's who are in the spirit who don't or can't go to a lot of meetings and they are doing just fine. Sadly, the general public and in fact many AA's don't realize that AA is a three part program. Many people do think that AA is all about going to meetings and sharing ones (daily) problems, it's not, and it's usually not going to keep one sober and if an "emoter" is lucky enough not to drink they will usually end up being restless, irritable and discontent.

I've been a little general here as I really don't have the time to go into detail. I would suggest that the OP and anyone else who might be interested in finding out about AA to get a copy of the Big Book and have a read of it.

[Skorz]

I am a recovering Alcoholic. I drank heavily for at least 20 years, and when I moved to Thailand in 2006 my alcohol consumption went off the chart. The last three years of my drinking saw me putting away at least 10 large Chang Beers a day, on top of a big bottle of Thai rum or similar. I was drinking from 7am until around 10pm, seven days a week, frequently more at weekends. To make matters worse, all my friends were also raging drunks. Our merry little fellowship of bloated alcoholics would tootle around on our motorbikes, going from bar to bar under the guise of 'business meetings' when really our main objective was to pour beer down our necks until our miserable wives dragged us home. Upon reflection, everybody outside of our drinking circle considered us bloody idiots and I now know one of the main reasons my company went bust was because nobody would do business with me on account of my being a drunk.

Physically I gained around 20kg of blubber in 2 years. I didn't smoke yet I could hardly walk up a flight of stairs. I was about as flexible as a brick, could barely bend over and had constant pain in my lower back and abdomen. I knew that my liver was severely enlarged towards the end of my drinking. My kidneys were also having a bit of problem as was my pancreas. Another horrible side effect was infectious wounds. Every little scratch or insect bite would turn into a huge open sore. My feet and lower legs were constantly swollen and festering and I was constantly picking up urethral infections due in part to being constantly dehydrated. My Doctor tells me that had I continued along the road I was travelling down, I would almost certainly have died before reaching 50.

2 of my friends died. Both of them younger than me. Both of them drunks. One died when he tried to sober up without the help of Xanex, the other had a stroke. He was 37. A third unlucky associtate drove his motorbike into a parked lorry a few weeks later. His skull was smashed in. Not surprisingly, he was a pi**ed as a priest at the time of the crash.

I decided to sober up.

Nothing worked.

I fell off the wagon about 50 times in as many days

Every-time I fell off, I got even more drunk than before.

I went into rehab in Bangkok. It didn't work. I signed myself out after 4 days.

I was trapped. In fact, it was about then that I had a proper 'rock-bottom' and woke up wallet-less, crazy hungover and totally covered in my own shit in some bar in down town Bangkok. I realised that I was an out of control, drunken ex-patriot alcoholic.

Last chance for me, and I knew it. Except this time, something was different and I know it. It didn't matter what anybody said to me, nothing could make me stop drinking, and I mean nothing. I didn't give a toss about anything except the bottle. I just couldn't have cared if everybody I knew, myself included, suddenly burst into flames and rolled into a lime lined pit in the middle of the jungle. I was even starting to fantasise about blowing the heads off those who refused to conform to my growing insanity and take seriously my delusional business ideas with the little Chinese 9mm semi auto pistol I used to keep in a tin under my bed. So, I'd lost it. I'd finally met the devil whilst covered in my own shit in some flithy bar at 5am on a damp Tuesday morning in down town Bangkok. And the thing that had changed? This time, when I said 'I'm never drinking again' I actually meant it, and more importantly, I believed it.

This time I really did dry out. The withdraw was as expected , totally horrific. A few hours after waking up on the floor of the bar the fear set in. The sweats, insane rushes of paranoia, nightmares and vomiting/shits lasted around 5 days, the first 2 days being something I seriously didn't think at the time that I'd survive. Many don't.

A few days later when I was capable of semi-rational speech I went to AA.

Now here is the thing about AA that most sceptics don't realise.

You don't have to believe in god, a higher power, Jesus or any of that kind of stuff. I know I don't. Not for even a second.

There are 12 steps in AA, the first step is all I've really needed and it simply states that you accept that you are pretty much powerless over your levels of drinking.

Sure, there are some other steps, the most interesting of which is saying sorry to every body you've ever upset. Nice if mean it.

Anyway, enough rambling. AA works. It is the only thing that has ever worked for me. I don't believe in god and I have no intention of starting to believe in god. AA works for all sorts of people on all levels. Quite simply, all you have to do is genuinely, honestly want to stop drinking.

There is a catch though. For the AA thing to work, you have to really understand yourself and your drinking and realise that you can never drink again. The reason for this is that unfortunately, if you're anything like me, one drink will eventually lead to 10 large changs and a bottle rum. A relapsed alcoholic will usually revert to a state far worse than before they sobered up, often in a startlingly short amount of time - often a few weeks.

The death rate amongst relapsed alcoholics is as can be expected, quite high.

If you're serious about quitting, and you've come to realise that your drinking is out of your control, go see a doctor, get some Xanex/valium (these stop you having alcoholic fits when you go cold turkey) and go to a local AA meeting. The only people who truly understand about being a drunk, are of course other drunks, not some judgemental dip stick medical graduate, not your parents, brother, dog etc and most certainly not your wife or kids.

AA is self supporting, non religious, very friendly and CHEAP!!!! (contribution based).

Being sober is bloody great. I'll get to see my Grandchildren now.

[Geekfreaklover]

I am a recovering Alcoholic. I drank heavily for at least 20 years, and when I moved to Thailand in 2006 my alcohol consumption went off the chart. The last three years of my drinking saw me putting away at least 10 large Chang Beers a day, on top of a big bottle of Thai rum or similar. I was drinking from 7am until around 10pm, seven days a week, frequently more at weekends. To make matters worse, all my friends were also raging drunks. Our merry little fellowship of bloated alcoholics would tootle around on our motorbikes, going from bar to bar under the guise of 'business meetings' when really our main objective was to pour beer down our necks until our miserable wives dragged us home. Upon reflection, everybody outside of our drinking circle considered us bloody idiots and I now know one of the main reasons my company went bust was because nobody would do business with me on account of my being a drunk.

Physically I gained around 20kg of blubber in 2 years. I didn't smoke yet I could hardly walk up a flight of stairs. I was about as flexible as a brick, could barely bend over and had constant pain in my lower back and abdomen. I knew that my liver was severely enlarged towards the end of my drinking. My kidneys were also having a bit of problem as was my pancreas. Another horrible side effect was infectious wounds. Every little scratch or insect bite would turn into a huge open sore. My feet and lower legs were constantly swollen and festering and I was constantly picking up urethral infections due in part to being constantly dehydrated. My Doctor tells me that had I continued along the road I was travelling down, I would almost certainly have died before reaching 50.

2 of my friends died. Both of them younger than me. Both of them drunks. One died when he tried to sober up without the help of Xanex, the other had a stroke. He was 37. A third unlucky associtate drove his motorbike into a parked lorry a few weeks later. His skull was smashed in. Not surprisingly, he was a pi**ed as a priest at the time of the crash.

I decided to sober up.

Nothing worked.

I fell off the wagon about 50 times in as many days

Every-time I fell off, I got even more drunk than before.

I went into rehab in Bangkok. It didn't work. I signed myself out after 4 days.

I was trapped. In fact, it was about then that I had a proper 'rock-bottom' and woke up wallet-less, crazy hungover and totally covered in my own shit in some bar in down town Bangkok. I realised that I was an out of control, drunken ex-patriot alcoholic.

Last chance for me, and I knew it. Except this time, something was different and I know it. It didn't matter what anybody said to me, nothing could make me stop drinking, and I mean nothing. I didn't give a toss about anything except the bottle. I just couldn't have cared if everybody I knew, myself included, suddenly burst into flames and rolled into a lime lined pit in the middle of the jungle. I was even starting to fantasise about blowing the heads off those who refused to conform to my growing insanity and take seriously my delusional business ideas with the little Chinese 9mm semi auto pistol I used to keep in a tin under my bed. So, I'd lost it. I'd finally met the devil whilst covered in my own shit in some flithy bar at 5am on a damp Tuesday morning in down town Bangkok. And the thing that had changed? This time, when I said 'I'm never drinking again' I actually meant it, and more importantly, I believed it.

This time I really did dry out. The withdraw was as expected , totally horrific. A few hours after waking up on the floor of the bar the fear set in. The sweats, insane rushes of paranoia, nightmares and vomiting/shits lasted around 5 days, the first 2 days being something I seriously didn't think at the time that I'd survive. Many don't.

A few days later when I was capable of semi-rational speech I went to AA.

Now here is the thing about AA that most sceptics don't realise.

You don't have to believe in god, a higher power, Jesus or any of that kind of stuff. I know I don't. Not for even a second.

There are 12 steps in AA, the first step is all I've really needed and it simply states that you accept that you are pretty much powerless over your levels of drinking.

Sure, there are some other steps, the most interesting of which is saying sorry to every body you've ever upset. Nice if mean it.

Anyway, enough rambling. AA works. It is the only thing that has ever worked for me. I don't believe in god and I have no intention of starting to believe in god. AA works for all sorts of people on all levels. Quite simply, all you have to do is genuinely, honestly want to stop drinking.

There is a catch though. For the AA thing to work, you have to really understand yourself and your drinking and realise that you can never drink again. The reason for this is that unfortunately, if you're anything like me, one drink will eventually lead to 10 large changs and a bottle rum. A relapsed alcoholic will usually revert to a state far worse than before they sobered up, often in a startlingly short amount of time - often a few weeks.

The death rate amongst relapsed alcoholics is as can be expected, quite high.

If you're serious about quitting, and you've come to realise that your drinking is out of your control, go see a doctor, get some Xanex/valium (these stop you having alcoholic fits when you go cold turkey) and go to a local AA meeting. The only people who truly understand about being a drunk, are of course other drunks, not some judgemental dip stick medical graduate, not your parents, brother, dog etc and most certainly not your wife or kids.

AA is self supporting, non religious, very friendly and CHEAP!!!! (contribution based).

Being sober is bloody great. I'll get to see my Grandchildren now.

Great first post. Thanks for sharing.

The reason AA works for so many is that the program lets us look honestly and learn from our past behaviour.

[GrahamF]

If you're serious about quitting, and you've come to realise that your drinking is out of your control, go see a doctor, get some Xanex/valium (these stop you having alcoholic fits when you go cold turkey) and go to a local AA meeting. The only people who truly understand about being a drunk, are of course other drunks, not some judgemental dip stick medical graduate, not your parents, brother, dog etc and most certainly not your wife or kids.

AA is self supporting, non religious, very friendly and CHEAP!!!! (contribution based).

Being sober is bloody great. I'll get to see my Grandchildren now.

Thanks Skorz, good to hear that you're doing well and enjoying your sobriety. Your honesty is appreciated and hopefully your story will inspire others to get help!

I would only add that it might be best if someone detoxed whilst under medical supervision and not attempt to do it by themselves and to stay in the detox for at least 72 hours.

Congrats again on your new life!

[saraburioz]

Now here is the thing about AA that most sceptics don't realise.

You don't have to believe in god, a higher power, Jesus or any of that kind of stuff. I know I don't. Not for even a second.

There are 12 steps in AA, the first step is all I've really needed and it simply states that you accept that you are pretty much powerless over your levels of drinking.

Sure, there are some other steps, the most interesting of which is saying sorry to every body you've ever upset. Nice if mean it.

I thought it was ALL about a higher power.

I have done step one a couple of times and it didn't keep me sober

I believe I would have to do all the steps to remain sober and sane and happy.

. It states you are completely powwerless - i don't think you can be a little powerless

I believe that I have to stop using "i' and start believing in a higher power

[andrewbkk]

2 of my friends died. Both of them younger than me. Both of them drunks. One died when he tried to sober up without the help of Xanex, the other had a stroke. He was 37.

How did the first guy die?

[GrahamF]

I ran across this brief article on CNN the other day and thought it might be worthwhile to put the link in this thread....

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/28/my-take-an-atheist-at-aa/?hpt=hp_abar

[tommckay1478]

What if i I just like drinking and don't care if or when I die?

I have nothing to live for anyhow.

[Sheryl]

What if i I just like drinking and don't care if or when I die?

I have nothing to live for anyhow.

There is no "if" in dying , and many people don't much care about the "when".

But everyone cares about the "how", or does if they have any idea just how variable (and in some cases agonizing) that "how" can be.

Death from alcoholic cirrhosis is one of the most horrible, slow agonizing ways to go you can imagine. I can assure you, you don't want it.

If you address your alcoholism you'll be pleasantly surprised to find that the "nothing to live for anyhow" problem also improves...dramatically.

[RickThai]

Tommckay,

Sheryl is speaking the truth when it comes to the pain of dying from live disease.

I had your mentality once upon a time, but once I entered End-stage liver disease, all thoughts of toughing it out until the end disappearted.

Your entire life will become focussed upon dealing with the pain.

More than once, I would have taken my own life, except for my love of my wife, and her intervention.

It took me 8 months and two million USD in medical care (liver transplant) for me to whip the disease.

The pain I endured was enough to make me quit alcohol forever and I have absolutely no desire to ever drink again.

If you continue to drink you will live to regret it.

If you feel your life is not worth living, than perhaps you need to assess why you feel this way, and start taking steps to change your life. You, and only you, can do this.

I found trusting your inner voice and taking the actions you know as "right" is the best way to live a good, clean life.

As an example, I have a neighbor who leaves her bedroom window, partially open every night. If I wanted to, I could easily peer into her bedroom and see things that would be, quite frankly, titilating.

However, I don't do that, because deep inside, I know that it is wrong (at least for me). Subsequently, whenever I see my neighbor (who is quite good looking) we can have a pleasant conversation because I can be open with her.

Try implementing things like this in your own life (every aspect of your life), and maybe you can experience what I now experience, the joy and happiness of being a truly open and warm individual without any habits or actions that I would be ashamed to share with anyone.

Good luck.

RickThai

[StreetCowboy]

Tommckay,

Sheryl is speaking the truth when it comes to the pain of dying from live disease.

I had your mentality once upon a time, but once I entered End-stage liver disease, all thoughts of toughing it out until the end disappearted.

Your entire life will become focussed upon dealing with the pain.

More than once, I would have taken my own life, except for my love of my wife, and her intervention.

It took me 8 months and two million USD in medical care (liver transplant) for me to whip the disease.

The pain I endured was enough to make me quit alcohol forever and I have absolutely no desire to ever drink again.

If you continue to drink you will live to regret it.

If you feel your life is not worth living, than perhaps you need to assess why you feel this way, and start taking steps to change your life. You, and only you, can do this.

I found trusting your inner voice and taking the actions you know as "right" is the best way to live a good, clean life.

As an example, I have a neighbor who leaves her bedroom window, partially open every night. If I wanted to, I could easily peer into her bedroom and see things that would be, quite frankly, titilating.

However, I don't do that, because deep inside, I know that it is wrong (at least for me). Subsequently, whenever I see my neighbor (who is quite good looking) we can have a pleasant conversation because I can be open with her.

Try implementing things like this in your own life (every aspect of your life), and maybe you can experience what I now experience, the joy and happiness of being a truly open and warm individual without any habits or actions that I would be ashamed to share with anyone.

Good luck.

RickThai

If I was to give a recommendation, I would say - Do Things! Its much harder to not do things - don't drink, don't look through the window, don't feel sorry for yourself. I never managed any of that. But if you do things - sure, let's go to the beach / the mall / opera, sure I'll help you move / paint your house / build a flood barricade / rob a bank then sooner or later you'll find something that you enjoy. Eventually you'll be saying to your mates "let's paint someone's house! Have you read this book? Do you want to go whoring in Angeles?" whatever. Life is really not that bad, if you live it. If you don't, its pretty pish, though

SC

[tommckay1478]

hah , living the dream, taking vits etc, have WAY chilled from my younger days and will probably carry on

[beerchang]

Hi.

I recently read a book (which I regrettfully gave away) which explained 'alcoholism" as indeed a disease, but is also hereditary. My mother and father, from memory, used to drink to aid sleep, and i find that I mostly do the same at the age of 44. I have a profitable business in Thailand and no worries. However, alcolhol is still a 'crutch' to aid sleep. I recently spent 5 days with no alcohol and got very little sleep. What's the answer? I wish I knew.

Finally, a quote from a good friend of mine after I asked him why he never drinks alcohol and hasn't for 25 years. His answer...."because I'm an alcoholic."

If only I were that strong.

Good luck to all that wish to conquer this affliction.

[beerchang]

PS. No offence, but I don't do religion. I'm pretty sure if God was involved he'd not let children suffer. etc etc

[StreetCowboy]

PS. No offence, but I don't do religion. I'm pretty sure if God was involved he'd not let children suffer. etc etc

I'd rather not try to guess what God would or would not do, if he existed.

Let's face it, if he only exists in your own head, it could still be enough to stop you drinking. If you were willing to do your part of it.

If alcohol's not doing you any harm apart from helping you get to sleep, then why would you want to stop?

Maybe getting to sleep is not the problem, anyway, Maybe the problem is not waking up well-rested the next day.

I decided to get help when I discovered I couldn't stop on my own. I would wake up with a hang-over after a binge, decide that I'd not go out again for the rest of the weekend, and then find myself in front of the TV with a pint in my hand in the pub watrching the rugby by the middle of the afternoon.

SC

[garro]

Folks keep saying that AA works fine as long as you follow the program. Obviously that dictum also applies to any approach. Any have the potential for success if you follow the dictates of that particular program. It's as true for the number 1 approach as it is for the bottom of the list. Therefore the likelihood of following or not following a program correctly is automatically factored into the stats that rank AA rather low on the list (referenced in an earlier post).

Perhaps one reason AA ranks low is because it's not so easy to follow the program, which requires attendance at meetings for life. Maybe another reason is that it mainly uses just one front, fellowship, while some of the more successful programs add physical and pschological therapy.

A lot of people like to say they don't believe in stats or in scientific studies. Yet even AAers are always talking about the disease model - a scientific approach which apparently has some validation in scientific studies. So it becomes a case of accepting studies that agree with your opinion, and rejecting those that do not. Not very scientific.

If you claim to respect empirical investigation, then you have to look at the actual published studies in the area of addiction and substance abuse. AA does not fare very well, overall, in these. Alcoholism is a medical problem, and medical research has advanced a bit since the 1930s.

By all means try AA, but if it doesn't work for you, try something else.

I would be interested in reading about anyone who has used another program to successfully stop drinking long term. Stop drinking means the person does not drink.

I really don't think you have read this thread very well. I don't think there are any examples of another program stopping anyone drinking long term.

Perhaps you have some positive input to share about what program you used to stop drinking. I would love to hear it.

Please don't interpret my post as a request for negative posts about AA. There have been enough of those in this thread already.

I frankly don't understand why a person who still drinks or one who has a very short period of sobriety would be advising others on how to stop drinking.

I don't see how stories about, "tough it out and go it alone", serve much purpose. If you have a structured alternative to AA in Thailand that you have tried and it worked for you, please let us all know about it.

I stopped drinking 6 years ago with the help of a Thai temple called Thamkrabok. They gave me a structure for my life and that is what I follow. I had struggled with alcoholism for two decades prior to this, and I was in and out of AA like a yoyo. At one stage in my life I ended up on the streets because of my drinking. I have some respect for Alcoholics Anonymous, but I know that it does not work for everyone. I have less respect for people who claim that AA is the only solution because this is just plain wrong and dangerous. I had almost given up hope at the end of my drinking because people kept on pointing me towards AA. I even had members of this group telling me that it would be better for me to keep on drinking until I felt ready to return to the meetings. My liver had been damaged, and I drinking myself to death seemed like the only option. Thankfully I found out that there are many paths for recovery. My life today is wonderful, and I now live my childhood dreams.

I’ve met plenty of people who gave up a serious alcohol addiction without any help from AA. There are even people (like me) who are not right for that group. Of course many AA members will use cognitive dissonance to explain this away – if you fail in AA it is because you didn’t work the program properly, but if you succeed without them you weren’t an alcoholic to begin with. You can’t beat that logic.

[GrahamF]

Folks keep saying that AA works fine as long as you follow the program. Obviously that dictum also applies to any approach. Any have the potential for success if you follow the dictates of that particular program. It's as true for the number 1 approach as it is for the bottom of the list. Therefore the likelihood of following or not following a program correctly is automatically factored into the stats that rank AA rather low on the list (referenced in an earlier post).

Perhaps one reason AA ranks low is because it's not so easy to follow the program, which requires attendance at meetings for life. Maybe another reason is that it mainly uses just one front, fellowship, while some of the more successful programs add physical and pschological therapy.

A lot of people like to say they don't believe in stats or in scientific studies. Yet even AAers are always talking about the disease model - a scientific approach which apparently has some validation in scientific studies. So it becomes a case of accepting studies that agree with your opinion, and rejecting those that do not. Not very scientific.

If you claim to respect empirical investigation, then you have to look at the actual published studies in the area of addiction and substance abuse. AA does not fare very well, overall, in these. Alcoholism is a medical problem, and medical research has advanced a bit since the 1930s.

By all means try AA, but if it doesn't work for you, try something else.

I would be interested in reading about anyone who has used another program to successfully stop drinking long term. Stop drinking means the person does not drink.

I really don't think you have read this thread very well. I don't think there are any examples of another program stopping anyone drinking long term.

Perhaps you have some positive input to share about what program you used to stop drinking. I would love to hear it.

Please don't interpret my post as a request for negative posts about AA. There have been enough of those in this thread already.

I frankly don't understand why a person who still drinks or one who has a very short period of sobriety would be advising others on how to stop drinking.

I don't see how stories about, "tough it out and go it alone", serve much purpose. If you have a structured alternative to AA in Thailand that you have tried and it worked for you, please let us all know about it.

I stopped drinking 6 years ago with the help of a Thai temple called Thamkrabok. They gave me a structure for my life and that is what I follow. I had struggled with alcoholism for two decades prior to this, and I was in and out of AA like a yoyo. At one stage in my life I ended up on the streets because of my drinking. I have some respect for Alcoholics Anonymous, but I know that it does not work for everyone. I have less respect for people who claim that AA is the only solution because this is just plain wrong and dangerous. I had almost given up hope at the end of my drinking because people kept on pointing me towards AA. I even had members of this group telling me that it would be better for me to keep on drinking until I felt ready to return to the meetings. My liver had been damaged, and I drinking myself to death seemed like the only option. Thankfully I found out that there are many paths for recovery. My life today is wonderful, and I now live my childhood dreams.

I’ve met plenty of people who gave up a serious alcohol addiction without any help from AA. There are even people (like me) who are not right for that group. Of course many AA members will use cognitive dissonance to explain this away – if you fail in AA it is because you didn’t work the program properly, but if you succeed without them you weren’t an alcoholic to begin with. You can’t beat that logic.

The folks that I know in AA, myself included, would be happy for you. I'm glad that you found something that works for you.

[garro]

Folks keep saying that AA works fine as long as you follow the program. Obviously that dictum also applies to any approach. Any have the potential for success if you follow the dictates of that particular program. It's as true for the number 1 approach as it is for the bottom of the list. Therefore the likelihood of following or not following a program correctly is automatically factored into the stats that rank AA rather low on the list (referenced in an earlier post).

Perhaps one reason AA ranks low is because it's not so easy to follow the program, which requires attendance at meetings for life. Maybe another reason is that it mainly uses just one front, fellowship, while some of the more successful programs add physical and pschological therapy.

A lot of people like to say they don't believe in stats or in scientific studies. Yet even AAers are always talking about the disease model - a scientific approach which apparently has some validation in scientific studies. So it becomes a case of accepting studies that agree with your opinion, and rejecting those that do not. Not very scientific.

If you claim to respect empirical investigation, then you have to look at the actual published studies in the area of addiction and substance abuse. AA does not fare very well, overall, in these. Alcoholism is a medical problem, and medical research has advanced a bit since the 1930s.

By all means try AA, but if it doesn't work for you, try something else.

I would be interested in reading about anyone who has used another program to successfully stop drinking long term. Stop drinking means the person does not drink.

I really don't think you have read this thread very well. I don't think there are any examples of another program stopping anyone drinking long term.

Perhaps you have some positive input to share about what program you used to stop drinking. I would love to hear it.

Please don't interpret my post as a request for negative posts about AA. There have been enough of those in this thread already.

I frankly don't understand why a person who still drinks or one who has a very short period of sobriety would be advising others on how to stop drinking.

I don't see how stories about, "tough it out and go it alone", serve much purpose. If you have a structured alternative to AA in Thailand that you have tried and it worked for you, please let us all know about it.

I stopped drinking 6 years ago with the help of a Thai temple called Thamkrabok. They gave me a structure for my life and that is what I follow. I had struggled with alcoholism for two decades prior to this, and I was in and out of AA like a yoyo. At one stage in my life I ended up on the streets because of my drinking. I have some respect for Alcoholics Anonymous, but I know that it does not work for everyone. I have less respect for people who claim that AA is the only solution because this is just plain wrong and dangerous. I had almost given up hope at the end of my drinking because people kept on pointing me towards AA. I even had members of this group telling me that it would be better for me to keep on drinking until I felt ready to return to the meetings. My liver had been damaged, and I drinking myself to death seemed like the only option. Thankfully I found out that there are many paths for recovery. My life today is wonderful, and I now live my childhood dreams.

I’ve met plenty of people who gave up a serious alcohol addiction without any help from AA. There are even people (like me) who are not right for that group. Of course many AA members will use cognitive dissonance to explain this away – if you fail in AA it is because you didn’t work the program properly, but if you succeed without them you weren’t an alcoholic to begin with. You can’t beat that logic.

The folks that I know in AA, myself included, would be happy for you. I'm glad that you found something that works for you.

So am I I think it is important that those who are struggling with alcoholism, or indeed any addiction, know that they have options. The 'one size fits all' approach to recovery is outdated and dangerous. I want AA to be there for the people who need it, but I also want other options discussed more openly too. We need to get real about addiction and honest about what works and what doesn't. In AA they like to say, 'doing the same things and expecting different results is insanity' - this also applies to repeatedly directing people back to the meetings when it is obviously not working for them.

[GrahamF]

So am I I think it is important that those who are struggling with alcoholism, or indeed any addiction, know that they have options. The 'one size fits all' approach to recovery is outdated and dangerous. I want AA to be there for the people who need it, but I also want other options discussed more openly too. We need to get real about addiction and honest about what works and what doesn't. In AA they like to say, 'doing the same things and expecting different results is insanity' - this also applies to repeatedly directing people back to the meetings when it is obviously not working for them.

I'll agree with you that one size does not fit all and AA is not for everyone.

One thing that is going on in AA right now is that many people seem to think that "the program" is all about going to meetings when in fact it is really about working the 12 Steps. I firmly believe that if I had just attended meetings then AA would not have worked for me and I would be drinking again or dead. But that's a whole other discussion.

Edit: The first paragraph is a quote from a post by garro.........I messed something up. Sorry

[garro]

So am I I think it is important that those who are struggling with alcoholism, or indeed any addiction, know that they have options. The 'one size fits all' approach to recovery is outdated and dangerous. I want AA to be there for the people who need it, but I also want other options discussed more openly too. We need to get real about addiction and honest about what works and what doesn't. In AA they like to say, 'doing the same things and expecting different results is insanity' - this also applies to repeatedly directing people back to the meetings when it is obviously not working for them.

I'll agree with you that one size does not fit all and AA is not for everyone.

One thing that is going on in AA right now is that many people seem to think that "the program" is all about going to meetings when in fact it is really about working the 12 Steps. I firmly believe that if I had just attended meetings then AA would not have worked for me and I would be drinking again or dead. But that's a whole other discussion.

Edit: The first paragraph is a quote from a post by garro.........I messed something up. Sorry

Hi Graham, I found in my dealings with AA that those who worked the steps did tend to get more out of it. There is a lot of great stuff in the program and I do respect it.

You will have to take my word for it, but I did make an honest attempt to incorporate the steps into my life. The AA way of doing things just didn't suit me in the end. I did stay sober in the program for 2 years during my twenties, but for all of that time I always felt like my sobriety was hanging by a thread. I worked the steps, went to a meeting at least once a day, and had a sponsor. I did a lot of service. None of this prevented me from relapsing. I just didn’t feel comfortable being a recovering alcoholic – it was like I was still being controlled by alcohol.

In reality you could say that many of things in my life today that reflect the wisdom in the steps, but that is just because they are true even for people who don't belong to AA. I don't consider myself to be a recovering alcoholic, and I don't believe that I ever had a disease. When I left the Thai temple I also gave up being an alcoholic. I know that I'll never drink again - that part of my life is over. I'm not saying here that my approach is right for everyone, but it might work for some who are sick of failing in 12 step programs.

[tjansen]

So am I I think it is important that those who are struggling with alcoholism, or indeed any addiction, know that they have options. The 'one size fits all' approach to recovery is outdated and dangerous. I want AA to be there for the people who need it, but I also want other options discussed more openly too. We need to get real about addiction and honest about what works and what doesn't. In AA they like to say, 'doing the same things and expecting different results is insanity' - this also applies to repeatedly directing people back to the meetings when it is obviously not working for them.

I'll agree with you that one size does not fit all and AA is not for everyone.

One thing that is going on in AA right now is that many people seem to think that "the program" is all about going to meetings when in fact it is really about working the 12 Steps. I firmly believe that if I had just attended meetings then AA would not have worked for me and I would be drinking again or dead. But that's a whole other discussion.

Edit: The first paragraph is a quote from a post by garro.........I messed something up. Sorry

Hi Graham, I found in my dealings with AA that those who worked the steps did tend to get more out of it. There is a lot of great stuff in the program and I do respect it.

You will have to take my word for it, but I did make an honest attempt to incorporate the steps into my life. The AA way of doing things just didn't suit me in the end. I did stay sober in the program for 2 years during my twenties, but for all of that time I always felt like my sobriety was hanging by a thread. I worked the steps, went to a meeting at least once a day, and had a sponsor. I did a lot of service. None of this prevented me from relapsing. I just didn’t feel comfortable being a recovering alcoholic – it was like I was still being controlled by alcohol.

In reality you could say that many of things in my life today that reflect the wisdom in the steps, but that is just because they are true even for people who don't belong to AA. I don't consider myself to be a recovering alcoholic, and I don't believe that I ever had a disease. When I left the Thai temple I also gave up being an alcoholic. I know that I'll never drink again - that part of my life is over. I'm not saying here that my approach is right for everyone, but it might work for some who are sick of failing in 12 step programs.

Hello Garro,

I have a favor to ask if you are interested in sharing. Do you feel that your 3rd Step was a complete surrender, at least the initial 'decision'? Was there anything at all that you thought of while doing the 4th Step that you decided not to include? Same question about the 5th Step.

I have started doing AA work with Thais, and I am a Big Book Thumper, probably to a fault. It says in the Big Book that if we don't do a thorough 5th Step, we might not overcome alcohol. I have been sober 31 years, but I never had the struggle with a compulsion to drink, even when I resisted doing the Steps for several months, while becoming an emotional wreck (that is how it felt). We use an alternative approach to reading the Big Book, we put together a 4th Step Workshop, preceded by Step 1 and Step 2 review and a working of Step 3, since my own experience calls for such an approach. We have been presenting these workshops in Ban Pong, Ratchaburi and for (alcoholic) patients at some psyche hospitals in different areas of Thailand.

I could ramble on and on about feeling free, feeling happy that I finally got myself meditating (Step 11) after deciding to retire in Thailand about 4 years ago for that purpose.

Thanks for the time and any feedback.

Tom J.

[tjansen]

What if i I just like drinking and don't care if or when I die?

I have nothing to live for anyhow.

I like to answer questions when I see them, if I can. I felt similarly, maybe not quite as strongly. My wife at the time told me if I kept drinking, it would kill me. I replied, "Good, I don't want to be alive anyway." Something happened along the way, I think it was mainly reading a book called "I'll Quit Tomorrow" which described the progression of alcoholism on the way down, and the progression of recovery on the way back up. I recognized myself perfectly in the first half and was greatly relieved that I had found an answer to what was wrong with me. I also decided I wanted the second half of the equation, recovery, and started considered quitting, which I did not too long after that.

By the way, nowadays I don't try to talk people out of keeping the suicide option handy. I consider it a "safety" valve, the use of which can limit how much a person has to put up with before pulling the plug. I put saftety in quotes because I have read and heard in Dhamma talks that suicide solves nothing. It continues in the next life where we left off. Not knowing the validity of mulitple lives, I hesitate to actively endourage someone to commit suicide.

Thanks for the time. I have another reply further down, or maybe further up, in this thread.

Tom J

[StreetCowboy]

What if i I just like drinking and don't care if or when I die?

I have nothing to live for anyhow.

I like to answer questions when I see them, if I can. I felt similarly, maybe not quite as strongly. My wife at the time told me if I kept drinking, it would kill me. I replied, "Good, I don't want to be alive anyway." Something happened along the way, I think it was mainly reading a book called "I'll Quit Tomorrow" which described the progression of alcoholism on the way down, and the progression of recovery on the way back up. I recognized myself perfectly in the first half and was greatly relieved that I had found an answer to what was wrong with me. I also decided I wanted the second half of the equation, recovery, and started considered quitting, which I did not too long after that.

By the way, nowadays I don't try to talk people out of keeping the suicide option handy. I consider it a "safety" valve, the use of which can limit how much a person has to put up with before pulling the plug. I put saftety in quotes because I have read and heard in Dhamma talks that suicide solves nothing. It continues in the next life where we left off. Not knowing the validity of mulitple lives, I hesitate to actively endourage someone to commit suicide.

Thanks for the time. I have another reply further down, or maybe further up, in this thread.

Tom J

If the people are as truculent as I am, then telling them that suicide is no way out will not help anyway -

"Ah - you might say that, and maybe its true, but let's just see for sure..."

SC