Alcoholism

[likerdup1]

....So perhaps, spiritually is not dependent upon any outside, 'higher power', but is merely a manifestation of each individual's innate spiritual power?

Just a thought.

RickThai

A very good thought RickThai.

Couldn't have put it better myself

Make note, likerdup1, there is another answer to the 'spirituality' issue.....

Mobi, to what spirituality issue were you referring? Let me try to elaborate a bit on the topic at hand in an effort to help if doing it on your own volition happens to not turn out as you hope.

As an avid AA member and almost fanatic of the Big Book, all I know is what I mentioned earlier in this thread. For me as an alcoholic it is profound good news that since early times, once in awhile alcoholics had recovered from what doctors saw as a spiritual awakening.

One of the greatest psychiatric doctors of all times gives us an important observation, one he had noted as did many doctors before him . That once in awhile alcoholics they were working with would have spiritual awakenings and recover and in a large part having nothing to do with any therapy the doctor prescribed. In this way we know it's not some invention of a cult leader trying to recruit members for unknown self serving reasons. It's not just some conjecture or a fluke idea. The idea is also not by a long shot born of any religion. It actually is a phenomenon doctors observed for years. It was found later that these spiritual awakenings could be brought about by following some ideas that we now know as the 12msteps.

There has been a lot of writing on this thread about what God might be or might not. Where God is and where he may not be. But all that really doesn't matter from my experience. I only experienced a Power Greater than myself when I actually DID SOMETHING to seek it. What I did was to wholly take the steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, without reservation, without trying to alter it or change it. Follow the directions as written. What happened is this one time self proclaimed leader of the atheist society became a believer living a happy and sober life the last 18+ years.

God is in the seeking and in through the taking of the 12 steps one can experience a God of ones own understanding, stay sober and live a peaceful and serene life.

Hope this helps, ~likerdup1 (not so much)

Edited May 24, 2011 by likerdup1

[trisailer]

We find the things we're looking for if we just keep looking.

I lost my car keys and I ain't going nowhere until I find them. I want to go somewhere. I want to go really bad. I need to find those damm keys. I've looked everywhere; or have I? They didn't just evaporate. They still exist I'm just not looking in the right place.

I encountered a guy on his hands and knees on a dark night in the rain looking for something under a streetlight. I asked, "what are you looking for?" He replied "I lost my car keys." "where did you loose them?" I asked. "Over there" was his reply. "Well, if you lost them over there than why are you looking here?" I inquired, dumbfounded. "Because the light is better here...?

We almost all begin life happy and balanced. As kids we have fun, learn things and we don't think "too much" Life is uncomplicated and the only thing most of us care about is our next adventure. So what happened? Life happens is what. We get stuck into school where we're supposed to care about a bunch of crap that has nothing to do with what we should be doing which is learning what we are made of. Soi dogs get a better education than most western kids because they learn who's the top dog and where they fit in the pack. It is no surprise to me that we are so dysfunctional. It's no surprise that we become hijacked by compulsive behavior. We haven't lost the keys, we have only misplaced them. They still exist somewhere and we will find them if we keep looking.

The reason that 12 step programs resonate with us is because the process of looking and finding is basic to our human nature. But, it is human. It is human that we know how to have fun and be serious when we have to. That we are curious and in awe of nature and life. AA supplies a map and that is important.

I'm a backpacker and I love to hike in wilderness areas where there are no trails. I always carry a map and a compass, but I have them as a backup. I do get lost and I'm glad I have the map to find my way again. The Appalachian Trail in the US runs from GA to MA all 2400 miles of it are blazed with white marks on trees. You can hike the whole thing without ever getting "lost" because your never out of sight of those blazes. Completing the hike with or without the maps and blazes has the exact same value as an accomplishment.

Getting sober is the first step IMO and whatever it takes to put together at least a year of sobriety is so important to finding your way. Do what you have to do to get and stay sober.

I'm taking a particular interest in Mobi. I misread him initially and hammered him pretty good, but I was wrong. I'm not alone in wishing for his recovery. I'm not above getting on my knees and saying a prayer that the powers of the universe, be they god or nature support him in his quest. You are not alone.

Several years ago I went out my door to take a hike. I imagined making it to a destination that was 20 miles away. I made it 3 before I was existed. I beat myself up pretty good for being such a wimp, but I kept going and the mileage increased. After a long time I was able to crank out the miles and not suffer.

Hang in there Mobi, your hike is just beginning.

[Mobi]

It is quite fascinating to see all the conflicting views and opinions in this thread when debating the subject of ‘God’/ ‘Higher Power’ / spirituality and so forth.

What is clear is that nothing that has been written on this thread has succeeded in changing anyone’s belief one iota. What also seems to be clear is that most of those who claim to have a strong belief in a ‘Higher Power’ are more intolerant of those who don’t, than vice versa. I don’t know why this is, but just read the posts and you will see that in general terms the ‘non–believers' seem to be far more tolerant and temperate in their discussion points. Maybe it is because they are covering their backside, in the event that they are wrong! Who knows? But they certainly do not get nearly so angry or worked up as their ‘Higher Power’ adversaries.

But allied to this ‘intolerance’ on the part of the ‘believers’ is also their assertion that we - non-believers – do not understand what a belief in a Higher Power is all about. They tell us about a spiritual, or uplifting experience which may be akin to an electric current running through them, and in their myopia, they somewhat condescendingly state that because we haven’t experienced it, we don’t understand it. How do they know we don’t understand it? Really! In this day and age do they really suppose that we have never heard or read countless people talk and write about these matters?

The simple truth is that we understand it only too well, but we simply do not accept it. We believe that there is another explanation for these so-called spiritual experiences and they do not include the existence of a Higher Power.

Then they try to scare us by saying things like even if we succeed in staying sober, we will never find true happiness if we do not connect with our Higher Power and work the 12 Steps. This is not too far removed from the old style preachers who would get up in the pulpits and threaten fire, brimstone, hell and damnation to any sinner who didn’t change his ways and accept Jesus Christ as his saviour.

To my mind, the dogmatic ‘scaremongers’ in the AA (including those in this thread who have admitted they are ‘fanatical’ about the Big Book), are simply a modern day manifestation of those old time preachers. No compromise, however small, is conceded. It is this very religious intolerance and fanaticism that has led to so many schisms within the religions of the world and led to so much suffering and death.

Even in this thread, more than one person has launched a viscous personal attack on me, just because I espouse views that differ from their own.

They are so sure they are right, even though the issue of recidivism in AA is now a very hot topic and makes uncomfortable reading.

There is now a huge welter of learned papers on this subject, published by recognised and respected world medical bodies and they are all saying that at best, the AA success rate is around 5% which is no better than the rate for those who achieve sobriety without any treatment whatsoever.

Let me just quote from one medical journal – The Harvard Medical school, which stated in a Mental health letter, published in 1995 that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more, do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated.

Then we have a very telling study, written by a doctor who became a member of AA World Services. He wrote :

“Another root of Professional-AA strains consists of the very human tendency to be loyal to the therapy which has been successful in one's own case — and rather uncritically to adopt the ideological framework within which the help has come.

We see this phenomenon in other areas. For example, the benefits of religious faith and personal integration can come through many different theological frames of reference — Roman Catholic, Pentacostal, Christian Science, Theosophy, Zen Buddhism, you name it. And, so often, the help found is taken as absolute proof of the truth of the accompanying theological framework.

Or, witness what happens when a patient has shopped around from doctor to doctor, and finally finds one that helps: he becomes very loyal to the successful therapist — and to the successful therapeutic program. Why should the behaviour of alcoholics be so different? I've been in alcoholism clinic and hospital settings where I've heard: "I tried the 'cure' over there. I tried AA. None of it worked. But this place has got the answers." And I've heard alcoholics talk who had boxed the professional compass and finally made it in AA.

In either case, the reason for the success of the particular treatment may have been due more to the patient's by-now greater pain and desperation than to the nature of the treatment or the context of beliefs. But few patients can see this at the time and they become loyal to the "successful therapy" — and, unfortunately, sometimes antagonistic or unfavourable in their attitude toward other therapeutic programs. Now, I submit that this is quite standard human behaviour. But it is one of the roots of misunderstanding, distrust, and strain in AA-professional relations”.

I rest my case

Mobi

Edited May 24, 2011 by Mobi

[Mobi]

Thank you trisaliler.

Memories of my <deleted> old man who had a row with everyone he ever met before eventually making friends!!

Yes, maybe I too should do a bit of praying to the incredible universe out there. Eckhard Tolle is very strong about getting away from civilisation and 'back to nature'; somewhere you can feel the Power and Majesty of the universe. Believe it or not, I find nothing in this that is in any way contradictory to my last post.

When I was fifty, grossly overweight and utterly unfit, having not undertaken one minute of exercise since my mid teens, like you, I took a hike one morning, and didn't get very far. But I did this every day, and after a few weeks I was able to walk several brisk miles and within a couple of months I was doing a daily 30 minute jog. I kept this up for about ten years, but since then things have gone backwards.

As with my alcohol, maybe it's time to make a stand and try to get fit again, though whether I can really succeed in this a second time around remains to be seen. No harm in trying though..

[Sheryl]

It is quite fascinating to see all the conflicting views and opinions in this thread when debating the subject of ‘God’/ ‘Higher Power’ / spirituality and so forth.

What is clear is that nothing that has been written on this thread has succeeded in changing anyone’s belief one iota. What also seems to be clear is that most of those who claim to have a strong belief in a ‘Higher Power’ are more intolerant of those who don’t, than vice versa. I don’t know why this is, but just read the posts and you will see that in general terms the ‘non–believers' seem to be far more tolerant and temperate in their discussion points. Maybe it is because they are covering their backside, in the event that they are wrong! Who knows? But they certainly do not get nearly so angry or worked up as their ‘Higher Power’ adversaries.....

I rest my case

This is not a court of law and with the apparent exception of yourself, I don't think anyone is trying to make a "case" nor views any other posters as "adversaries".

Most of the people posting here are just offering their experiences and understandings, for whatever use it may be to others.

I don't see any conflict in the posts of the last 2-3 days nor do I see anyone trying to change anyone else's "beliefs". For that matter, I don't see a lot of "beliefs" but rather diverse and interesting descriptions of different people's experiences and understandings. There is a critical difference.

As the rich variation in how people have described their personal understanding or experience of a higher power demonstrates, there is vast room for individualized approaches and no strict dogma or "ism" involved in 12 step programs. It's a very big tent; among people working 12 step programs there is not only the wide array of understandings that have been described here but many, many, many more as well. Everyone finds their own way in this, which is sort of what is meant when they say everyone has their own higher power. It can be useful to hear how others have approached it, but no two people's understandings are going to be 100% alike.

The only understanding of a HP that can't work is the idea that there is nothing more powerful than one's own self will. That doesn't bar anyone from attending meetings and being in the fellowship, but it will prevent working the program.

[kerryk]

It is quite fascinating to see all the conflicting views and opinions in this thread when debating the subject of ‘God’/ ‘Higher Power’ / spirituality and so forth.

What is clear is that nothing that has been written on this thread has succeeded in changing anyone’s belief one iota. What also seems to be clear is that most of those who claim to have a strong belief in a ‘Higher Power’ are more intolerant of those who don’t, than vice versa. I don’t know why this is, but just read the posts and you will see that in general terms the ‘non–believers' seem to be far more tolerant and temperate in their discussion points. Maybe it is because they are covering their backside, in the event that they are wrong! Who knows? But they certainly do not get nearly so angry or worked up as their ‘Higher Power’ adversaries.

But allied to this ‘intolerance’ on the part of the ‘believers’ is also their assertion that we - non-believers – do not understand what a belief in a Higher Power is all about. They tell us about a spiritual, or uplifting experience which may be akin to an electric current running through them, and in their myopia, they somewhat condescendingly state that because we haven’t experienced it, we don’t understand it. How do they know we don’t understand it? Really! In this day and age do they really suppose that we have never heard or read countless people talk and write about these matters?

The simple truth is that we understand it only too well, but we simply do not accept it. We believe that there is another explanation for these so-called spiritual experiences and they do not include the existence of a Higher Power.

Then they try to scare us by saying things like even if we succeed in staying sober, we will never find true happiness if we do not connect with our Higher Power and work the 12 Steps. This is not too far removed from the old style preachers who would get up in the pulpits and threaten fire, brimstone, hell and damnation to any sinner who didn’t change his ways and accept Jesus Christ as his saviour.

To my mind, the dogmatic ‘scaremongers’ in the AA (including those in this thread who have admitted they are ‘fanatical’ about the Big Book), are simply a modern day manifestation of those old time preachers. No compromise, however small, is conceded. It is this very religious intolerance and fanaticism that has led to so many schisms within the religions of the world and led to so much suffering and death.

Even in this thread, more than one person has launched a viscous personal attack on me, just because I espouse views that differ from their own.

They are so sure they are right, even though the issue of recidivism in AA is now a very hot topic and makes uncomfortable reading.

There is now a huge welter of learned papers on this subject, published by recognised and respected world medical bodies and they are all saying that at best, the AA success rate is around 5% which is no better than the rate for those who achieve sobriety without any treatment whatsoever.

Let me just quote from one medical journal – The Harvard Medical school, which stated in a Mental health letter, published in 1995 that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more, do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated.

Then we have a very telling study, written by a doctor who became a member of AA World Services. He wrote :

“Another root of Professional-AA strains consists of the very human tendency to be loyal to the therapy which has been successful in one's own case — and rather uncritically to adopt the ideological framework within which the help has come.

We see this phenomenon in other areas. For example, the benefits of religious faith and personal integration can come through many different theological frames of reference — Roman Catholic, Pentacostal, Christian Science, Theosophy, Zen Buddhism, you name it. And, so often, the help found is taken as absolute proof of the truth of the accompanying theological framework.

Or, witness what happens when a patient has shopped around from doctor to doctor, and finally finds one that helps: he becomes very loyal to the successful therapist — and to the successful therapeutic program. Why should the behaviour of alcoholics be so different? I've been in alcoholism clinic and hospital settings where I've heard: "I tried the 'cure' over there. I tried AA. None of it worked. But this place has got the answers." And I've heard alcoholics talk who had boxed the professional compass and finally made it in AA.

In either case, the reason for the success of the particular treatment may have been due more to the patient's by-now greater pain and desperation than to the nature of the treatment or the context of beliefs. But few patients can see this at the time and they become loyal to the "successful therapy" — and, unfortunately, sometimes antagonistic or unfavourable in their attitude toward other therapeutic programs. Now, I submit that this is quite standard human behaviour. But it is one of the roots of misunderstanding, distrust, and strain in AA-professional relations”.

I rest my case

Mobi

Hope has two beautiful daughters, anger and courage.

I think it is fair to say you had a bad experience with the God people in AA. Going back through this thread you have mentioned bad God people experiences many times.

This caused me to wonder why I didn't have bad experiences with the God people because my basic point of view is very close to yours. I think I have it narrowed down to two things. 1. You are smarter than me and 2. You are more vocal about your beliefs.

You see I didn't say anything to anyone for the first year I went to AA. After the meetings I would run away quickly so no one could talk to me. I went to a lot of different meetings so people would not recognize me as a regular and feel free to talk to me. Even doing that a couple of God people cornered me and I just smiled and nodded and told them I had to go to the toilet.

I have come to the conclusion if you don't say anything long enough people begin to think you are wise. To pull this wise thing off you have to have a stock of good one liners like the first sentence of this post in case you are actually pressed into talking. While the God people are thinking about the meaning of your wise utterance you can go to the toilet and get away.

So Mobi what is your case? That AA is not necessary to stay sober? That AA is a flawed organization because of the God people? That God or Big Book people are intolerant?

What ever your case is it is certainly anti AA meetings for Mobi. Reading your last post and I also think it comes across from reading your previous posts in the thread you are very anti higher power and AA for you. I certainly don't have a problem with that point of view. But I do think your view needs to be stated clearly as I think you have done in the above post. Although the OP might have been more accurately titled "Why AA is not good for Mobi or Non believers."

I try never to give advice to people who don't ask for it. It is hard sometimes when you see a train wreck coming not to tell the engineer but I do try. I also try and not to say I told you so and that is hard sometimes too. Especially with my own children.

AA members really don't have to be defensive. There are a couple of million of them. The group as a whole probably knows more about alcoholism than any medical or other institution in existence today.

I can only state my own experience because it is the only thing I really know about. I didn't come to AA to debate them. I was on the bottom. My pride had gone out the window along with my marriage, job, children and everything else. I came to AA to listen.

I think you started this thread because you had a bad experience with AA and wanted to tell the world about it. Which you have done. I can understand that and I hope you feel better as a result of your actions.

[trisailer]

Great post Mobi,

I think that the reason I seem to connect with you has something to do with our fathers.

I am certain that mine was the reason that I shut down. He was a brutal man and we never knew when he was going to blow. At some point I decided I wasn't going to let him hurt me anymore. I think I might have been 7. I was outside our house with my mother and siblings shaking in fear as he rampaged and was wrecking the house inside. It was insane. After that time I never let him hurt me again no matter how severe the beatings got I would smile afterward and say to my siblings "that didn't hurt" Nothing hurt after that not even the things that should have.

I don't think that our fathers set out to harm us. They want to toughen us up for the life to come and he actually did a pretty good job in that regard. I took my anger out in boxing and hockey and kicking bully's asses. and it served me pretty good for awhile. When I was in my 30's some weird stuff started happening to me. I had always had nightmares but they started happening in the day time. I remember once sitting on a plane on the way to some meeting in my fancy, expensive suit and I got to thinking that if I blow this important negotiation I was going to be living in a cardboard box out behind the mall with my glue sniffing youngest brother. It was freaking me out because what I needed at that moment was confidence to pull this thing off. I couldn't put this thing out of my mind and then I had a flashback so real that It took all of my power to hold back from completely breaking down. I was in the bed next to my oldest brother, who got the brunt of my fathers violence, and my father was beating him with a rage that came from the depths of hell. He was pounding him and stomping him with those huge work boots. My other two brothers and I were completely terrorized by that event and before this plane ride I had no memory of it. After that beating my oldest brother completely changed. He went from being a good student and a track star to being the neighborhood fool. He struggled each and every day of his life after that night. He and I had been estranged our entire lives. We couldn't be in the same room together largely because he loved my father and I hated him.

The human brain is an amazing thing. It can fortify us and protect us from horrible experiences but I think it expects us to deal with this stuff when the terror is over and restore balance. If we don't it will hound us and make us incapable of balance and normal human relationships. I seen it happen to several high powered people who run off the rails. In battle they call it "battle fatigue" I think that the mechanism is the same. The brain wants what it wants.

Me, I'm a cocky bastard. I want to do it my way. I got more from Joseph Campbell's "Power of Myth" and "The hero with a Thousand Faces" than I ever did from a bunch of church hypocrite's. AA was a big help but I was the one who crawed through broken glass to find my way back.

[trisailer]

Pardon me for hogging the board, but this seems to be the only intelligent conversation happening on TV and people getting a grip is a topic that I like.

I think Thai Mobi has already said that he will go to AA and commit to the program if his approach fails. I agree with that. It is my fall back strategy if I get into trouble.

Let me repeat that AA is a great organization and it helps a lot of people achieve sobriety. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. My experience and process is different I know that. Here's another story.

My sponsor in AA was a rageaholic as well as a alcoholic and sex addict. In addition to AA he was active in SLAA and trying to get a grip. He was also incredibly intelligent and a amazing businessman and I respected him in spite of his being a prick. We almost cam to blows a couple of times but he was also there for me to make me do the work. Anyway, he couldn't maintain a relationship and he decide to take some time off from women to readjust. He remained celibate and didn't date for two years. I remember the day he told me that he was "healed" and ready to start dating and try to find a sustainable relationship. I challenged him to explain to me how anything was going to be different since he hadn't BEEN in a relationship for two years and we don't learn anything by staying away from it. When he did meet someone he had the exact same challenges we all have in relationships. He was a little more patient but he struggled with it.

My point is that we don't learn what we must be wanting to learn by avoiding it. That's why curiosity killed the cat. I want to be able to mess around with alcohol if I want to. When I came here to Pattaya I had a lot of fun with it, but I maintained my boundaries, I didn't drink and drive and I didn't beat anyone up. Since I've been married I pretty much got bored with it and usually don't drink except occasionally with a friend and even then no more than two.

I think that the science of the brain holds the clues to our returning to balance. If I were a betting man I would put money on every person with a alcohol problem having something that underlies it. Why else would it be so necessary to subdue it. The brain gets us to do things for reward. The question is the reward avoiding a terrible memory or loosening us up to laugh and have fun and add to the enjoyment of life, not destroy it.

Edited May 24, 2011 by trisailer

[Mobi]

This is not a court of law and with the apparent exception of yourself, I don't think anyone is trying to make a "case" nor views any other posters as "adversaries".

I totally agree that it is not a court of law but it is a forum - a debating forum - and surely the purpose of any debate is for the participants to put forward their points forcefully, succinctly and fairly and hope to convince others that their views on a particular subject have merit?

Sheryl, nobody in Thai Visa has more respect and love for you than I, but I honestly think you are getting a bit confused here. Maybe the use of the word 'adversaries' was an injudicious turn of phrase, but I am sure you all know exactly what I mean. If you don't like this word Shall we say 'fellow debaters'?

As for 'I don't think anyone is trying to make a case'... quite frankly, I am speechless. I thought that was precisely what everyone was trying to do......

Maybe there is some parallel Thai Visa universe out there where all people do is sate state their views and smile at each other, never challenge a differing view point and agree to disagree on everything that matters in this sad world....

[Mobi]

Dear Kerryk, I fear I continue to irritate you and that is not my intention.

I will be honest with you.

I started this thread because I wanted to set out what I believed about this subject and I was interested in other people's points of view - how many who agreed with me and how many disagreed and what were their reasons? I was simply interested in having a nice, healthy debate - nothing more nothing less. I stated from my very first post that I totally supported the AA way to sobriety and it is rather becoming a 'cracked record' as to how many times I have had to restate this; much as you seem to be convinced that I have other, darker motives.

But quite frankly, as this thread has progressed over the past days and weeks, I confess that my opinion has hardened against the AA. This is partly because I have seen how dogmatic and extreme are the AA proponents - even to the extent of being hostile - sometimes extremely hostile and inflammatory in their posts. These are the people who will swear to their dying day that the only way is the AA way, yet I see them in this forum being anything but the happy, joyous, free and serene, sober alcoholics that we are led to believe will be their reward if they attend AA and work the 12 steps.

Then we get folk like trisailer, who has pointed out the recidivism rate in AA, which has occasioned me to carry out further research into this aspect of the debate and I have been quite astonished by what I have found. In fact, at the start of this debate, although I was determined to 'plough my own furrow' in terms of seeking sobriety, I was nevertheless a bit concerned that it was flying in the face of AA wisdom and may end in disaster. Now, after reading everyone's posts and carrying out further research, I feel much more confident that my way may well be every bit as successful as the AA way, and maybe even more so. It seems that I am in much greater company than I had previously imagined.

I am still not against AA, and despite what you may think, I didn't have a particularly bad time in AA. I would guess that my experiences were not much different to anyone else's - there is good and bad everywhere, and I have already stated that I met some very good people who gave me excellent help and advice. In fact I would go as far as to say that without them and their advice and support I doubt I would be a sober man today, which is the reason that I would still highly recommend AA to anyone seeking help.

[StreetCowboy]

Mobi (et al):

My opinion:

I suppose there are two different views on debate in AA, neither of which allows for the kind of adversarial debate that you are proposing.

One viewpoint says that we should follow the Big Book and the programme to the letter, and do exactly what we are told, as part of our sacrifice of self-will. Therefore there is no room nor need for debate.

The other, which is probably more relevant, is that we are powerless over the thoughts of others, and that all we can do is share our experience, strength and hope, and say what we think, and let others ignore it or glean from it what they will. But each party basically shares from his own viewpoint, without particular reference to what has gone before, and without refuting it, even if the viewpoint that he espouses is contradictory and incompatible (i.e one party says it is white, the other says it is black, and both viewpoints are left on the table for others to choose between them, or take from both to conclude that it is a grey matter...).

Personally, when I am debating on TV (I prefer to call it 'bickering', since I am not a master at it), I find it easy to generate a resentment or two against my fellow-squabblers, which is generally seen, within AA, as a bad thing.

Anyway, I rarely recall seeing anyone admit that they were wrong or express a compromise on their position in all my time bickering on TV, and since there is no public vote or arbiters' decision at the end of the session, I see no point in an adversarial approach. However, I do value the opportunity listen to alternative viewpoints, though I might draw the line at doing so with an open mind

SC

[kerryk]

Mobi,

You wrote, “I feel much more confident that my way may well be every bit as successful as the AA way, and maybe even more so. It seems that I am in much greater company than I had previously imagined.”

I am assuming you don't mean Trisailor because he drinks and uses drugs, so who are you talking about?

[trisailer]

Wait a minuet.

I said Mobi needs to do whatever he needs to do to insure he does not drink for at least a year, preferably two. That includes running to AA if he finds it impossible to do on his own (which he already agreed to do). I completly agree that whatever happens in the brain and bodies of alcoholics needs to reset.

The fact remains, His odds of doing this on his own are as good as going to AA. There is a lot of new research out there that supports this.

Your beginning to sound like those people who used to come to my door to try to save me.

Isn't there a expression in AA "let go, let god?"

[StreetCowboy]

Attraction, rather than promotion.

We only turn for help when we think we need it. "... when an alcoholic reaches out for help, the hand of AA should be there." Until they do reach out, probably as well we keep our hands to ourselves.

But then, what do I know?

SC

[kerryk]

Attraction, rather than promotion.

We only turn for help when we think we need it. "... when an alcoholic reaches out for help, the hand of AA should be there." Until they do reach out, probably as well we keep our hands to ourselves.

But then, what do I know?

SC

Who was or is reaching out for help? I didn't notice anyone.

[Mobi]

Mobi,

You wrote, “I feel much more confident that my way may well be every bit as successful as the AA way, and maybe even more so. It seems that I am in much greater company than I had previously imagined.”

I am assuming you don't mean Trisailor because he drinks and uses drugs, so who are you talking about?

The truth is that there are as many, if not more, alcoholics who find sobriety outside AA than within it.

And I will be very happy to have trisailer with me on my journey - I am not in the business of making judgements.

There but for the grace of your Higher Power.....etc

[kerryk]

Wait a minuet.

I said Mobi needs to do whatever he needs to do to insure he does not drink for at least a year, preferably two. That includes running to AA if he finds it impossible to do on his own (which he already agreed to do). I completly agree that whatever happens in the brain and bodies of alcoholics needs to reset.

The fact remains, His odds of doing this on his own are as good as going to AA. There is a lot of new research out there that supports this.

Your beginning to sound like those people who used to come to my door to try to save me.

Isn't there a expression in AA "let go, let god?"

So after 20 years of believing in a HP and not drinking I could have stopped all that AA stuff after 2 years. Wow. I didn't know that.

[Mobi]

Who was or is reaching out for help? I didn't notice anyone.

Then I suggest you open your eyes....

[StreetCowboy]

Attraction, rather than promotion.

We only turn for help when we think we need it. "... when an alcoholic reaches out for help, the hand of AA should be there." Until they do reach out, probably as well we keep our hands to ourselves.

But then, what do I know?

SC

Who was or is reaching out for help? I didn't notice anyone.

Exactly. Maybe we should avoid proselytising, for fear of further antagonising our fellows, and wait until they ask for help, rather than arguing.

I guess that is another reason why AA does not garner statistics on its own performance - because its attraction is based on anecdotal and personal example and experience, not promotion based on aggregate statistics.

This is how you got sober, and others may do the same. Or they may choose another path, and where that goes is their business. If it takes them in a circle, or ends in a dead end, then they can come back to AA. But we should not go running after them, or shout that they're doing it all wrong.

Anyway, maybe i tink too mut

SC

[kerryk]

Mobi,

You wrote, “I feel much more confident that my way may well be every bit as successful as the AA way, and maybe even more so. It seems that I am in much greater company than I had previously imagined.”

I am assuming you don't mean Trisailor because he drinks and uses drugs, so who are you talking about?

Is that a rhetorical question, or are you being sarcastic?

Or maybe you are just being deliberately obtuse.

kerry oh kerry.. read and ye shall learn, seek and ye shall find the truth...

The truth is that there are as many, if not more, alcoholics who find sobriety outside AA than within it.

And I will be very happy to have trisailer with me on my journey - I am not in the business of making judgements.

There but for the grace of your Higher Power.....etc

What gave you the idea from reading the posts in this thread that there were many more alcoholics who found sobriety outside of AA than within it. And if they did how did they do it? You mean all those court ordered AA programs and all the AA programs run in hospitals and all those AA programs recommended by doctors are all wrong?

[kerryk]

Attraction, rather than promotion.

We only turn for help when we think we need it. "... when an alcoholic reaches out for help, the hand of AA should be there." Until they do reach out, probably as well we keep our hands to ourselves.

But then, what do I know?

SC

Who was or is reaching out for help? I didn't notice anyone.

Exactly. Maybe we should avoid proselytising, for fear of further antagonising our fellows, and wait until they ask for help, rather than arguing.

I guess that is another reason why AA does not garner statistics on its own performance - because its attraction is based on anecdotal and personal example and experience, not promotion based on aggregate statistics.

This is how you got sober, and others may do the same. Or they may choose another path, and where that goes is their business. If it takes them in a circle, or ends in a dead end, then they can come back to AA. But we should not go running after them, or shout that they're doing it all wrong.

Anyway, maybe i tink too mut

SC

I wasn't trying to help anyone. Trisailor and now Mobi are trying to publicize an anti AA website in a very round about way. They will get to it eventually and then we will have the war of quoting studies and who they were done by and if they are valid. Trisailor is not asking for help, he drinks and drugs. Mobi is not asking for help he has it figured out for himself and just wants a debate, so he says.

[kerryk]

Who was or is reaching out for help? I didn't notice anyone.

Then I suggest you open your eyes....

You are probably not trying to be cryptic and I am not trying to be sarcastic but I really don't know.

In the event they is someone reaching out for help, the answer is simple. Go to an AA meeting. If you don't want to go to an AA meeting and continue going to AA meetings I haven't a clue. So that's all I know about helping people who want to stop drinking.

[Mobi]

Here’s an interesting story:-

A Christian doctor who prescribed faith in Jesus fights for his job

A Christian GP is facing the threat of being struck off for suggesting a patient could find solace in Jesus. But Richard Scott said yesterday that it was worth the risk if he could ‘make a stand’ for his faith.

Dr Scott, 50, was placed under official investigation for talking to a patient about Jesus. The Cambridge-educated GP, who used to be a medical missionary and surgeon in Tanzania and India, has refused to accept a formal warning from the General Medical Council, which said he risked bringing his profession into disrepute by discussing Christianity.

Dr Scott insists no guidelines were breached as religion was mentioned only during a ‘consensual discussion between two adults’ after he had carried out a thorough and lengthy consultation with a patient last year at his Christian-orientated practice in Margate, Kent.

The father of three, whose wife Heather, 50, is also a doctor, is fighting to have the formal warning removed from his unblemished record – maintaining that he acted professionally and within the medical regulator’s guidelines. The complaint was brought by the mother of the 24-year-old patient, a man who was described as ‘in a rut and in need of help’. Dr Scott told him that faith in Jesus could give comfort and strength. When asked by his mother how the meeting had gone, the patient apparently replied: ‘He just said I need Jesus’ – prompting her to complain that Dr Scott had ‘pushed religion’ on her son, who nevertheless continued to receive treatment from the practice.

Dr Scott, said: ‘The GMC decided to take the complaint seriously, which I feel is an injustice. They said that by speaking about my faith I had abused my position and potentially exploited vulnerable patients. The patients didn’t indicate that they were offended or wanted to stop the discussion. If that had been the case, I would have immediately ended the conversation. ’

…..‘Dr Scott had a rigorous policy of not pressing the point if people didn’t want to hear his views and it sounds like he was very respectful. I think the GMC should be glad to have people like that rather than disciplining and putting them under pressure to keep their faith quiet…’

He was interviewed on the radio today and he made a very robust defence of his religious activities with his patients, insisting that there was a ‘spiritual healing’ aspect to every sickness and disease, including cancer. –

So in case you are wondering why I have posted this story, it is because I have at last found at least one learned medical gentleman who thinks that God can cure cancer… (see my opening post)

It makes you wonder….

BTW, AA alcoholism group USA is now following my blog via my twitter account. Don’t know if I should be worried or flattered. Maybe they will try to get God to save me….

Edited May 24, 2011 by Mobi

[Mobi]

posted in error

Edited May 24, 2011 by Mobi

[RickThai]

After much reflection I will offer my final thoughts on this post (I just know you are all holding your collective breaths ).

As to the original topic "Is it a disease and can God cure you?"

My answers are:

a) by medical definition alcoholism is a disease. IMHO it is defined as a disease more as a result of political/social considerations rather than any similiarity to other free-roaming, diseases like TB, HIV, etc.

It is an addiction (like smoking, cocaine, etc.) that has both physical and pychological symptoms, so calling it a disease could be justified somewhat if you are willing to accept the premise that other addictions (or self-imposed problems like eating too much) are also a disease.

can God cure you? Short answer IMHO is no. However, the 'belief'' in a God (or whatever external entity/external power you believe in) can help you get sober and stay sober, provided the belief has resulted strengthening your committment.

Rick

[Mobi]

What gave you the idea from reading the posts in this thread that there were many more alcoholics who found sobriety outside of AA than within it. And if they did how did they do it? You mean all those court ordered AA programs and all the AA programs run in hospitals and all those AA programs recommended by doctors are all wrong?

Do you seriously think that my sole source of knowledge on AA recidivism is 'reading the posts in this thread'???

Come on now - even my recent post contained two separate quotes from respected outside authorities that had absolutely no previous connection with this thread. Whatever you think of me, please do not imagine that I would jump to such conclusions without spending many hours - days even - researching the matter. Sure, folk like trisailer pointed the way, but that was it - once he mentioned it, I was up and running....

As for courts and judges recommending AA programmes - well I hate to rain on your parade, but it seems that some courts at least are now having second thoughts about sending drunks to places where the success rate has now been shown to be no better than 'doing it yourself'. I suspect that as time goes on, and the latest research becomes more widely known, that AA will be less likely to bear the official seal of recommendation by these august institutions than was previously the case.

Oh dear, I've gone and done it now.....

Edited May 24, 2011 by Sheryl
flaming remarks deleted

[Mobi]

. Trisailor and now Mobi are trying to publicize an anti AA website in a very round about way.

That's bit harsh isn't it?

[saraburioz]

The fact remains, His odds of doing this on his own are as good as going to AA. There is a lot of new research out there that supports this.

Don't be silly. use your common sense dude.

[Sheryl]

it is a forum - a debating forum - and surely the purpose of any debate is for the participants to put forward their points forcefully, succinctly and fairly and hope to convince others that their views on a particular subject have merit?

Sheryl, nobody in Thai Visa has more respect and love for you than I, but I honestly think you are getting a bit confused here. Maybe the use of the word 'adversaries' was an injudicious turn of phrase, but I am sure you all know exactly what I mean. If you don't like this word Shall we say 'fellow debaters'?

As for 'I don't think anyone is trying to make a case'... quite frankly, I am speechless. I thought that was precisely what everyone was trying to do......

Let me be absolutely clear on this, and I am speaking here in Moderator capacity:

This is absolutely not a "debating" forum.

Like the main Health forum, and its other sub-forums, its is a place for people to seek and share information and give/receive support.

Reading through the posts here it is clear that the majority of posters were attempting to do exactly that..offer their own experiences and understandings in case some part therein might be helpful to others.

There is no room for adversarial debates here, and people's sharing of their own experiences is to be treated with respect, especially given the sensitivity of the subject matter.

And flaming is absolutely not tolerated.

"the Health forum is, by its nature, a place where people seek information or help of a personal nature, often in the context of a serious and stressful problem. It is absolutely essential that they are able to do so without fear of ridicule or judgment. Forum rules regarding flaming etc will therefore be enforced with particular strictness. The level of banter that might be acceptable in other forums will not be allowed here if, in the opinion of the Moderators, it is likely to make other members uncomfortable or hesitant to post."

[trisailer]

I don't know how you can say I'm starting an anti AA site.

The fact is that if you look back at my early post I was just as forceful as any of you in my recommendation of AA. That was my understanding of the best approach and I hammered Mobi in a PM for not going to AA.

I read the information in my google results searching for ammunition to convince Mobi that his odds were better IF he went to AA and to my surprise the data says otherwise. That was when I changed my position.

I am just as concerned as anyone that Mobi is successful and yes I was concerned that this information might send him in the wrong direction, but a mans got to make the right choices for himself. Mobi is clearly not stupid.

The fact of the matter is that the 12 steppers I knew would be telling him that if he hasn't had enough and if there is anything else to learn from drinking than go learn it and drink.