Alcoholism

[Mobi]

Well as I started this thread as a place to exchange thoughts and opinions on AA, God and the like as it relates to alcoholics - which in any other definition of the English language would be called a debate - I suggest as it as it is no longer allowed to be a debate that the thread it has passed its sell-by date and should be closed.

This may well be my final post in Thai Visa, and if so, then may I thank you all for contributing to an interesting discussion on a subject that I hold close to my heart. I do appreciate everyone's contribution, and I hope that nobody has taken to heart or become upset by anything I - or anyone else - has written.

Farewell, and good luck to all those seeking sobriety

[ozzieovaseas]

As someone watching from the sidlines i would like to say what a great thread you guys have going here.

In the end i am not so much drawn to the issue of AA or the "god" thing within AA, but in suffering the same affliction of being human i sure as heck have no shortage of demons and the realization that sorting them out will be a lifelong exercise.

It seems in the end we all have to formulate our own ultimate truths based on our individual experiences and what we have learned from them.

Nowadays I have come to think that beliefs are a by-product of lessons learnt and experiences had, more so than the doctrines we have been told to believe from birth.

Whether that negates my belief in any instantly given faith from a HP or otherwise i dont know.

What i do know (or suspect) is that everything in this universe is panning exactly as it should it its own perfect timeframe.

After all, how could we refute the truth in our "reality" not happening in perfect order?

If that were true then i think it would not be such a huge stretch to say that all of our differing personal beliefs could ALL fit into the perfection of the Higher power, whether we believe directly in it or not.

Im sure the reality system of a higher power is not beyond making anything possible,even though considering the differances we have as a race that would seem unfathomable to us at this point.

If there is a HP without limitations i would hardly think it would to be concerned about any debate of what belief is right and wrong....It simply "IS". Nothing we can do or say as humans is going to have any any great baring on its existance or inexistance, therefor i doubt such a power would even NEED us bow down to it in order to legitimise its own existance.

If you look at it that way then the concept of this perfect higher power punishing us forever in damnation if we dont relent to its wishes is a quite ridiculous notion IMO.

I guess whatever you believe and whatever you may call it is up to you in the end.

Actually i would suggest you, me, Mobi,and indeed everyone on this Earth has some form of higher power within them already, even if you believe its sole mission is just keeping your blood pumping and your brain ticking.

Certainly we are not really all that different under the skin and considering that humans will never make any machine remotely comparable to the vast intricacies of the human body, its not unreasonable to think some sort of higher power might have had a hand in putting it altogether?

I guess in that sense the issue of a higher power being able to cure anyone of alcohol would be a moot point. Its in you and you have it already.

I don't think you need to turn to humans for your own salvation from alcohol or otherwise. As a whole we seem to have an extensive history of tooling things up. In my own case i cant really remember ever trusting anyone 100%..except my mother .

Anyway, i hope the great debate continues as it certainly has been a worthwhile read. Such articulate writing from the main players in this thread and i for one have found it amazing to see what depth you guys have displayed from hearing some of your past experiences.

It does seem a little ironic..with the sharing of personal life stories,unveiling the "person behind the poster" (as it were)..this is suspiciously starting to look like an online AA session

So i guess there are differances of opinion that may never be solved here, but i assume you guys share one common interest in hoping to creating some good from the sharing of your own life experiences and I get the feeling everyone who has posted on this thread would hope the best for anyone wanting to kick the habit and have some control of their inner demons.

Its been a long one but has been worthwhile reading through the whole thread. Just seeing the different side of at least 3 posters on this thread has been an eye opener and one that i reckon is deserving of good measure of respect.

Actually, i wouldnt rule out turning up at AA BK myself sometime :jap:

[ozzieovaseas]

It seems i have missed seeing the last page or so.

Just to throw my two bob in the ring i can't see why this is not a worthwhile debait. Some posters who started out with the opinion that the God issue can be somewhat seperated in the grander cause of giving up alcohol..seem to now be very offended.

[SpoliaOpima]

Mobi, excellent OP and as ThaiPauly says, an interesting thread.

Seems odd to read some things here. AA is the most successful way to stop drinking in our world today. There simply isn't a better way available.

Actually that's not true. The success rate for AA is about the same as for spontaneous recovery among untreated alcohol abusers.

Here's one ranking of various treatment approaches. From Chapter 2, "What works? A summary of alcohol treatment research" in R. K. Hester & W.R. Miller (Eds.), Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches: Effective alternatives (3rd ed.), 2003, Allyn & Bacon.

http://www.behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

As you can see from the chart, AA ranks near the bottom (number 38 of 48 approaches).

Not everyone responds to a treatment approach in the same way. AA appears to be perfect for about 5% of those who try it.

In my opinion, it doesn't help to make sweeping statements like "AA (or any other approach) is the best," even with scientific studies and rankings (like the one I linked to) to back it up or refute it. Anyone who needs help in this area should look at a few different approaches that appeal to them, and start with the one that makes the most sense to them. Anecdotes from guys who have sobered up may have little relevance to your situation.

Going back to the OP's question, personally I think anyone with an alcohol dependence/abuse problem should speak to a substance abuse specialist or clinic acquainted with up-to-date methodology. It seems like a multi-pronged approach that treats phsycial symptoms as well as mental behavior would stand the best chance of longterm success.

In northern Thailand a friend of mine recently came back from 30 days treatment at The Cabin. As he explained it to me, he received psychotherapy as well as physical therapy. He's been off the sauce for two months now and seems to be doing well. Of course it's too early to say how long that will last, only time will tell. I know nothing about the place other than that he went there and spoke well of his experiences there.

As for the spiritual side of Mobi's question, it seems to me that most problem drinkers end up following some sort of spiritual path, even if it doesn't involve God or Buddha or Allah. But the mainstream religions can help people too.

In conclusion, combining physical, mental, and spiritual approaches might set up a strong footing on which to achieve sobriety.

[GrahamF]

Mobi, excellent OP and as ThaiPauly says, an interesting thread.

Seems odd to read some things here. AA is the most successful way to stop drinking in our world today. There simply isn't a better way available.

Actually that's not true. The success rate for AA is about the same as for spontaneous recovery among untreated alcohol abusers.

Here's one ranking of various treatment approaches. From Chapter 2, "What works? A summary of alcohol treatment research" in R. K. Hester & W.R. Miller (Eds.), Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches: Effective alternatives (3rd ed.), 2003, Allyn & Bacon.

http://www.behaviort...m/whatworks.htm

As you can see from the chart, AA ranks near the bottom (number 38 of 48 approaches).

Not everyone responds to a treatment approach in the same way. AA appears to be perfect for about 5% of those who try it.

In my opinion, it doesn't help to make sweeping statements like "AA (or any other approach) is the best," even with scientific studies and rankings (like the one I linked to) to back it up or refute it. Anyone who needs help in this area should look at a few different approaches that appeal to them, and start with the one that makes the most sense to them. Anecdotes from guys who have sobered up may have little relevance to your situation.

Going back to the OP's question, personally I think anyone with an alcohol dependence/abuse problem should speak to a substance abuse specialist or clinic acquainted with up-to-date methodology. It seems like a multi-pronged approach that treats phsycial symptoms as well as mental behavior would stand the best chance of longterm success.

In northern Thailand a friend of mine recently came back from 30 days treatment at The Cabin. As he explained it to me, he received psychotherapy as well as physical therapy. He's been off the sauce for two months now and seems to be doing well. Of course it's too early to say how long that will last, only time will tell. I know nothing about the place other than that he went there and spoke well of his experiences there.

As for the spiritual side of Mobi's question, it seems to me that most problem drinkers end up following some sort of spiritual path, even if it doesn't involve God or Buddha or Allah. But the mainstream religions can help people too.

In conclusion, combining physical, mental, and spiritual approaches might set up a strong footing on which to achieve sobriety.

Again, another study, and again, I have to ask is there a breakout of stats concerning relapses of the people in AA who have worked the steps and those who have not. My personal experience, for what it's worth, is that my sobriety after working the steps (from the big book with a sponsor), and continually working them, attending meetings, etc, is very different from when I tried to quit drinking on my own. So far, I am happy and do not want to drink, which certainly was not the case when I was on my own. I have heard this from other AA's as well and from my own personal observations I would contend that AA's who have thoroughly worked, and continue to work the program are far less likely to relapse than AA's who have not. I would also contend that if a study were done looking at AA's who have "thoroughly followed the path" that the relapse rate would be quite a bit less. I am also a bit of a cynic when it comes to studies and statistics in general, not only studies related to AA. I feel it is important to look at who is doing the studies and/or stats and what, if any, might be an underlying motivation as to the results. Enron looked really good on paper for a long time while in fact they were bleeding money all over the place, that is only one example, there are many more out there. In regards to studies concerning the efficacy of different treatments for substance abuse, I think it's important to take into account who is generating the studies, in this case usually someone in the medical field, and that treatment for substance abuse is big business, be it rehabs, medications, etc. I have to believe that in most cases that the self interest of the researcher is going to skew the results in some way. Here in the States, most medical professionals have to get some sort of continuing education and it is well known that pharmaceutical companies often sponsor these seminars, I seriously doubt that a Urologist who has been hired to lecture on ED by Pfizer is going to wax rhapsodic on how great Cialis (produced by Eli Lily) is. He/she may mention Cialis, so as to bring an air of impartiality into the seminar but he/she won't be biting the hand that feeds them. I would love to see a study comparing the relapse rates of those in AA who have worked the steps vs. those who have not, but I doubt that's going to happen. I can only imagine the fallout of a study that concludes, if you go to AA, thoroughly follow the steps, etc, then the chance of relapse is less than most other modalities and by the way, it's free. Not going to happen, mainly because there is just too much money involved in treatment these days and to be fair I don't think that a lot of AA's would want to be involved in a study. I just have go with my own experience on this one.

[GrahamF]

Sorry, I came back a little late to edit my previous post. I do acknowledge that it would be extremely hard to do a study as I suggest, but it is food for thought.

[ThaiPauly]

Since this thread started it is the first one I look at every day.

I have not contributed much since the begining, but have found every post to contain something of interest, and I am sure it is helping people with alcohol addiction problems to decide what their best course of action may be.

Mobi, Kerry and TriSailor have all made worthwhile contributions which show differing viewpoints to be sure, but the thread is the longest I can ever remember on this forum.

When I was a moderator it took 2 minutes a day at most to read all that was posted here, this thread has bought the forum alive, and personally I would love to see it continue. But Sheryl is correct in saying it should not be a debate, exchanging views without lambasting another person's opinion should be the order of the day. Everyone's opinion is valid ,especially to the person who "owns" the opinion.

My take is: AA is the first step, if that does not work for you then there are alternatives if willpower is not enough

AA is free , every other type of recovery process costs money, money some folks don't have,unless you use an internet forum such as soberrecovery and a few others, but I suggest their success rate is very low as hardly any effort is required and as the saying goes "you get out as much as you put in"

So to Mobi especially I say please continue to post your thoughts, and I know you well enough to know that if you did find that your current path to continuing sobriety did not work for you, you are man enough to come on here and say so, Not everyone agrees with you for sure, but they all want to read your opinions.

Everyone here wants to be sober, even if they ae still drinking or not and you can never have too much information, even if it is only an opinion.

Dr.Silkworth had an "opinion", but that was all it was, and look where that led!!

[trisailer]

I'm a sailor and as such I had to learn the tools of the trade to find my way where there are no landmarks. I needed a chart (map) and a device to put myself onto that chart. I had to learn to keep my compass calibrated and believe what it said. Sailing the coast of Maine means sailing in the fog where your blind. If you do it much you will end up on the rocks. The oldest and best have all been there.

My question is why do it? Why risk so much and get so battered when I can just get on a ferry or drive to the exact same place? My ex-wife was afraid of everything. She didn't like any risk at all and she lives daily with very severe limits on herself. That's her choice and that's fine, but some of us are wired differently. She has the same human issues as I do but she does not have the same navigational tools and doesn't trust her compass. A few years ago I looked into the question of weather Christians were happier than us nonbelievers and they are not. They have problems with navigation it seems. Dogma of any kind is like a map. You can learn something about where you are, but you still have to USE the other the tools of navigation. The map is a small part of it.

The real issue is where do you want to go. I'm going to assume that we all want to get to a place of balance and inner peace. "find our bliss" as Joseph Campbell would say. I want to walk on this earth and not be afraid of myself. Jung said that there are only two motivations; fear and desire. I chose desire. I want to be attracted to my life. We were born with the ability to do this, but it got hijacked somewhere along the way. We can take it back. The tools are available to let go and let our minds bring us back.

It's no secret that there are a lot of "dry drunks" in AA. These are people who don't drink but they live life on the ferry. They put their navigation in the hands of someone else. The dogma of AA. That's fine for them. It doesn't work for me. I've spent a few nights on the rocks and I've scared the shit out of myself a few times. I feel like I am where I always dreamed I wanted to be. I have a tapestry of tools to call on to maintain balance. You have the ferry, nice safe, but you learn nothing about navigation.

(note to Mobi. unblock me if you wish to. I don't want to loose you. If I can offer any support I will.)

[likerdup1]

Mobi, excellent OP and as ThaiPauly says, an interesting thread.

Seems odd to read some things here. AA is the most successful way to stop drinking in our world today. There simply isn't a better way available.

Actually that's not true. The success rate for AA is about the same as for spontaneous recovery among untreated alcohol abusers.

I would contend that AA's who have thoroughly worked, and continue to work the program are far less likely to relapse than AA's who have not. I would also contend that if a study were done looking at AA's who have "thoroughly followed the path" that the relapse rate would be quite a bit less. I am also a bit of a cynic when it comes to studies and statistics in general, not only studies related to AA. I feel it is important to look at who is doing the studies and/or stats and what, if any, might be an underlying motivation as to the results. Enron looked really good on paper for a long time while in fact they were bleeding money all over the place, that is only one example, there are many more out there. In regards to studies concerning the efficacy of different treatments for substance abuse, I think it's important to take into account who is generating the studies, in this case usually someone in the medical field, and that treatment for substance abuse is big business, be it rehabs, medications, etc. I have to believe that in most cases that the self interest of the researcher is going to skew the results in some way. be fair I don't think that a lot of AA's would want to be involved in a study.

Agreement Graham, thank you for this good post. I think many of these studies of AA's efficacy fail to take into account people who really "tried" AA. Trying meaning completely taking the steps and continuing on doing 12 step work (as I do now 18+ years sober). A study of how many people walk in the rooms, how many are sober and for how long only shows just that. Any AA who has studied the book knows that it never talks about say, how to have a meeting, what to say in a meeting, how many to go to etc.. Of course the book only focuses on finding a power greater to solve the problem. That is the program of AA.

To bad, these surveys we see are half way accurate at best anyway IMHO. And I also agree with you, who knows the motivation. There was advert on TV of a Dr. claiming a cure for alcoholism. Perhaps he conducted one of these studies.

Well I can tell both you and I know many alcoholics 1) are just not willing to go to any lengths. They simply will not or do not muster the courage to fully complete say even a through 4th and 5th step (moral inventory and admission of personality defects) let alone doing a complete 9th (make amends to all ones harmed). My sponsor, God bless him, says "sometimes the work drives them out but the booze eventually drives them back in". BUT that's if the meetings are also carrying the real message of alcoholics anonymous. 2) They never really get the message of the program. Too many meetings I've attended center around people bringing their problems to AA rather than people talking about how to solve them. A good AA meeting from the start talks about the disease, it's hopelessness, the solution being a spiritual awakening and to attain that, working the steps. An alcohlic could go to many meetings and actually never even hear the info in that last sentence.

[GrahamF]

It's no secret that there are a lot of "dry drunks" in AA. These are people who don't drink but they live life on the ferry. They put their navigation in the hands of someone else. The dogma of AA. That's fine for them. It doesn't work for me. I've spent a few nights on the rocks and I've scared the shit out of myself a few times. I feel like I am where I always dreamed I wanted to be. I have a tapestry of tools to call on to maintain balance. You have the ferry, nice safe, but you learn nothing about navigation.

There are quite a number of "dry drunks" in AA, I have met quite a few of them myself. One that comes to mind is a gentleman who just celebrated 25 years of sobriety and I have to say that he is one miserable SOB, as are many of the other "dry drunks" I know in AA. Another thing they usually have in common is that have not thoroughly worked the program, most of them just go to meetings and at best have worked the steps cafeteria style. I have not met too many AA's who have worked the program that are unhappy or miserable. Sure, there are some, but that's to be expected. As far as I'm concerned, at least the "dry drunks" are sober and not destroying themselves and those around/near them. People are going to have different paths to sobriety, if it works for them then that's great and I'm happy for them. My path is AA and working the program, I can only really share about that and what didn't work for me in the past.

[Mobi]

Thank you TP and others who have written some kind words about this thread. I too have got a lot out of it as well as having enjoyed contributing to it.

.....................

I think I have been more than honest in setting out my motives for starting this thread and it saddens me that someone ...would believe otherwise.

As to whether this forum is a debate or not; well it would seem that the old saying that ‘America and England are divided by a common language,’ is still alive and well; let’s look at some random definitions of ‘debate’:

Debate: To consider something; deliberate; to engage in a formal discussion ;to deliberate on; consider; to discuss or argue; a discussion involving opposing points; deliberation; consideration:

If that is not what we have been doing for the past 9 pages, then I will eat my proverbial hat.

........

Anyway, back to the discussion in hand....

[kerryk]

Along with being an alcoholic I was an adrenalin addict. I don't know if the two went together or it was just my thing. Talking to others in AA I suspect it is a common combination.

I liked doing things for the rush. I liked taking chances. Diving and sailing by myself. Skiing in dangerous areas. Playing contact sports.

Later my addiction led me to frequent dangerous places, after hours gambling joints and all manner of strange clubs.

When I sobered up the adrenalin addiction remained but I was less likely to give in to it because I could make a rational decision and weighed the risks.

Contemplating moderate drinking or exploring other methods besides total abstinence falls in the dangerous category for me.

I had friends come to visit me in Thailand who actually tried to convince me to have just one beer.

They knew I was an alcoholic but they could not understand why only one beer would hurt me.

Some of the things I have read in this thread about playing with drinking and risking going it alone remind me of that dangerous behavior. I don't think the people writing about it are mean spirited I just think they have no idea what a disaster I can be when I am drunk. I have totaled five cars in less than a minute and while my wife was waiting in the hotel room asked two strippers to run away with me when I was at a business convention to receive an award as manager of the year.

Telling me that AA does not work any better than a white knuckle loner does not compute in my mind. I have seen too many helped to believe it does not happen.

Saying to me to mess around with booze a little bit and when I get into trouble run to AA is not for me.

I can't do it.

I haven't had any bad experiences in AA meetings because I kept my mouth shut when I was still a crazy drunk.

By my measure I was a crazy drunk for at least the first five years of my sobriety. After that I became a little less crazy. Just me, others may recover their sanity quicker.

I really don't think I have the knowledge or background to understand the thousands of studies recently produced about addiction. PhD's who have studied addiction for years disagree all the time. And it seems not very pragmatic to me.

There are AA meetings all over Thailand. They are free and in addition to helping one stop drinking are a social network to cope with living in a foreign country.

[likerdup1]

So why does God suddenly have this miraculous ability to relieve alcoholics of their disease, as so many recovering members of AA believe?

Mobi, I didn't see any comment concerning my full and complete answer, with quotes from AA literature, to your question quoted above (the nature of which convinces me in some way or another you hadn't, at least prior to your post the full and complete run down of the AA program). I hope my post will show that your OP idea that "so why does God suddenly have the ability to relieve alcoholics" is not the case and an not AA. Actually the fact is Doctors since early times have observed alcoholics getting well from what they saw as "spiritual experiences".

Please see my two previous post a few pages back. I believe with this extra information you may see that your ideas about AA seem to be skewed and not actually AA. I wish you to know the truth. Myself, I've studied the book. Not just read it "cover to cover" a couple of times. A couple of readings I found to be woefully insufficient to understand the program. Actual study is warranted, especially if one suffers from this most serious, insidious and terminal illness.

Sincerely, Likerdup1 (not so much)

[trisailer]

Along with being an alcoholic I was an adrenalin addict. I don't know if the two went together or it was just my thing. Talking to others in AA I suspect it is a common combination.

Saying to me to mess around with booze a little bit and when I get into trouble run to AA is not for me.

I can't do it.

There are AA meetings all over Thailand. They are free and in addition to helping one stop drinking are a social network to cope with living in a foreign country.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It makes it easier for me to relate and RESPECT your choice. It is YOUR choice. I have absolutely no doubt that you knew you had a problem long before you decided to commit to the AA program. That moment that you did decided was YOUR moment. A team of wild horses could not have dragged you to AA before you were ready. The moment that I decided was also mine. What makes you so afraid to let Mobi make his? Do you think that if he fails it will pull you down with him? My wife has an expression that she hits me with whenever I complain about someone doing something that I disagee with. "let him live!"

I need to do this my way. You need to do it yours. If you've raced boats you know what a flyer is. I was never very good at match racing because I got impatient with staying with the pack, but I was unbeatable as a singlehanded sailor because I learned from the experts and went out and put it into practice my own way. There are proper times to play defense but you won't win much if you can't play offense as well.

Who can say what is the best choice for another man? I can't. I can walk with him and hold his hand and help him along the trail. I have a particular interest in seeing men reach the mountain top.I want to live in a world among men who can be strong, proud and full of the spirit that we were born with. It's much bigger than alcoholism. Alcohol is just the symptom.

Going to AA is going to a safe harbor, but I never could stay safe for long. If your afraid to live life fully by hiding that's fine. I'm not.

[Sheryl]

.... this thread has bought the forum alive, and personally I would love to see it continue. But Sheryl is correct in saying it should not be a debate, exchanging views without lambasting another person's opinion should be the order of the day. Everyone's opinion is valid ,especially to the person who "owns" the opinion.

Thank you TP for summing this up so well.

The thread clearly is of interest to many people and I too hope it can stay open. For which let me again plead for restraint:

• No flaming (and remember the threshold for that is a lot lower in the Health Forum/sub-forums than elsewhere)
  
• No personalized attacks. That includes bringing in to open forum personal information about other posters or personal communications you have had with them. Both are violations of others' privacy.
  
• No aggressive attempts to "win" an argument, no argumentative language.
  

By all means share information and views, and best of all, share experiences.

Lastly posters are reminded of Forums rules against discussion of Moderation in open forum. if you have an issue, comment or question about Moderation, contact either the Moderator involved or Thai Visa Support via PM or (in the case of Support) email.

[Johnniey]

Going to AA is going to a safe harbor, but I never could stay safe for long. If your afraid to live life fully by hiding that's fine. I'm not.

Going to AA enabled me to live life to the full. I think the opposite to you. I used to hide by drinking.

[likerdup1]

My take on much of what's in this thread is that there are some misconceptions as to what AA is. As a student of the AA Big Book let me try to make it clear. Now I don't profess to be an authority and if anyone would like to correct me I just ask that you quote the AA Big Book to make your point. The program of AA is what is found in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Any opinions which can not be reconciled with it are not AA.

Let me start off by establishing this fact. Alcoholics Anonymous is actually 2 things.

1. The PROGRAM of AA. The program is a practical course of action which when followed gives relief to the suffer. The 12 steps are the program. The directions and information to practice the program are found within the first 164 pages of the AA book.
2. The Fellowship of AA. The meetings and groups originally intended to be forums for people seeking help and carrying the message of the Program of AA.

Here is the program of AA in a nut shell:

1)The problem = alcoholism which AA has observed is a disease of 2 components.

i) An allergy of the body ( the craving which develops AFTER an alcoholic takes a couple drinks)

II) An obsession of the mind (when honestly wanting to alcoholics find they can not entirely quit or moderate)

Note: alcoholics cannot safely consume alcohol because a craving beyond rational reason compels them to continue drinking once starting. It's all or nothing thus abstinence is the only way out. However since alcoholics also possess an obsession of the mind, even when honestly wanting to quit and frequently doing it for a time, they drink again.

Thus the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind rather than his body (page 23 Big Book of AA) This is the insanity of the first drink.

2) The solution (given to AA by the late great Dr. Carl Jung) A spiritual awakening. A spiritual awakening relieves the insanity of the first drink

3) The practical program of action = The 12 steps

Through doing/taking/working the 12 steps a spiritual awakening can be brought about in the sufferer giving freedom from the insanity of the first drink or the "mental obsession" and thus relief from Alcoholism in the form of prolonged and sustained abstinence coupled with a contented peaceful existence.

Through study of the Big Book one can confirm the above. What I've written may bring about questions and I welcome them. I have studied the book quite extensively and my life has never been better for it. AA has given me not only sobriety but a design for living which continues to bring me a good measure of contentment and peace.

"I've never seen an alcoholic get into any trouble from working the steps too soon, but have seen many suffer or die from working them too late" Paul M.

[Johnniey]

My take on much of what's in this thread is that there are some misconceptions as to what AA is. As a student of the AA Big Book let me try to make it clear. Now I don't profess to be an authority and if anyone would like to correct me I just ask that you quote the AA Big Book to make your point. The program of AA is what is found in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Any opinions which can not be reconciled with it are not AA.

Did AA exist before the Big Book? Yes, of course it did and they were practicing the AA program.

Let's not forget the best way for an alcoholic to insure immunity from drinking(p89 of the Big Book)

[kerryk]

Masculinity, macho man and sobriety. I have heard a lot of stories at meetings. Courage and doing masculine things. Responsibility is masculine to me. Taking care of your children, wife and family is masculine to me. It is not easy all the time. My father and grandfather were both alcoholics. They crashed cars and showed up at home with Christmas trees that looked like scarecrows with no green on them only branches, they were both drunk. It is funny thinking back on it but at the time, I being a small child I was not amused.

I used to take beer to school events in a cooler and disguise the cans as coke cans. My father would go to the toilet when out to eat and the family knew he was stopping at the bar for a quick shot. I could go on but booze ruined my young life and my kids young lives. I didn't sober up till my children were in their teens and I was divorced from their mother.

I don't look at AA as a safe harbor against drinking I look at is as a method to allow me to be a man and take care of my responsibilities. Meetings for me are not a place to hide from the storm but a place that makes me strong enough to weather the storm.

Working the steps requires a lot of courage. Many people can't find the courage. It takes courage to list all the things you have done wrong and all the people you have hurt. It takes courage to apologize to them. It takes courage to tell another person your faults. I have a big ego and I had a hard time with it.

Why do so many people bail out before completing the steps? Because it is not easy. My mind played funny tricks on me and tried to rationalize a way out of not doing the steps. Drunks minds are like that and mine was no different. For me it was hard to admit I was nothing special. Just another drunk, that's me.

[trisailer]

kerryk

Please don't misunderstand what I'm about. I absolutely agree with everything your saying about the program of AA. I just an hour ago advised a poster who was asking about how to learn to love himself to commit to 90/90 in AA to get sober before any other process can ever have a hope of happening.

I left the program after two years of 110% commitment to it. I loved going to meetings and the things I learned were the basis for further growth. Personal honesty was a big one for me and I will be forever grateful for learning how to see myself objectively. I continue to take my inventory daily. Everything good in my life today is because of my work in AA. I don't know how it can be any clearer.

When I left the program after picking up my 2 year chip (which I still have BTW) my Sponser told me "you'll be drunk in a week" he was wrong. Later when I checked in with him he told me "well, you must not have been a real alcoholic" That's fine, I don't live by what others think of me. The fact is that when I resumed drinking it was in moderation. I used the tools I learned in AA to continue to take my inventory. I had fun with alcohol like the old days when a couple were enough. I had made some very significant changes in my life to eliminate the stress I was under and began to live a more simple happy life. I was continuously practicing the things I learned in AA. I still do to this day.

I don't understand why you feel so threatened by me and my approach to managing my life. I sure as heck wouldn't presume to know what is right for another man. I don't advise my two adult kids unless they ask and they never do. I'm not suggesting that YOU should do what I'm doing. I respect your choice. Try to have a little respect for mine. It's been working for 18 years. I have had NONE of the issues that led me to AA during that time. I've learned to have more fun without alcohol than with it.

The only reason that I drink anything is to socialize with friends who appreciate sharing a beer. I never drink alone. I don't do any other drugs except Tylenol and I do a lot of it.

The fact is that I live with chronic pain from my lifestyle. I had to have most of my neck muscle on the left side removed from a run in with a rare cancer, I've broken my back and my neck in a chopper crash in the Army and now arthritis is setting in. I've broken my collar bones 3 times in mountain bike crashes and my ankle in a motorcycle crash. A few times I resorted to pain killers. The first time was methadone. It worked and I was pain free for years, but the side effects were not pleasant and I decided to get off from it. My doctor advised against it, but I did it anyway. Let me tell you that quitting alcohol is baby's work compared to withdrawing from methadone. I was off it for a couple of years before I just couldn't stand the pain anymore. This time I went on oxycontin, a powerful opiate. Same result and after two years I withdrew from that. A couple of years later I went back on it for another couple of years. It's been a few years since I withdrew from it the last time, but I will go back if I need to with the certain knowledge that I can manage my life the way I want and no substance is going to take that away. These are personal choices we make to produce the life we want.

[saraburioz]

When I left the program after picking up my 2 year chip (which I still have BTW) my Sponser told me "you'll be drunk in a week" he was wrong. Later when I checked in with him he told me "well, you must not have been a real alcoholic"

i'm with your sponsor on this one . sounsd like you shoulc go to NA

[GrahamF]

When I left the program after picking up my 2 year chip (which I still have BTW) my Sponser told me "you'll be drunk in a week" he was wrong. Later when I checked in with him he told me "well, you must not have been a real alcoholic"

i'm with your sponsor on this one . sounsd like you shoulc go to NA

I'm going to disagree with you on this one. This is TS's program, not yours or mine. If he's happy and not hurting those around him, then great! It wouldn't work for me as I know that if I have one drink, it won't end with just one. TS knows that AA and NA are out there if he wants to come back. When I was drinking, if anyone had told me that I should go to AA, I would have told them to F off. Ooops, I did tell them to F off. I had to hit my emotional bottom and get there on my own.

[kerryk]

Trisailor I honestly have no opinion about what you are doing. I know nothing about drugs. You mentioned some things that triggered some memories I had and I posted my experience. Nothing to do with you. Sorry perhaps I should have made it clearer.

[trisailer]

OK, truce.

[likerdup1]

kerryk

Please don't misunderstand what I'm about. I absolutely agree with everything your saying about the program of AA. I just an hour ago advised a poster who was asking about how to learn to love himself to commit to 90/90 in AA to get sober before any other process can ever have a hope of happening.

I left the program after two years of 110% commitment to it. I loved going to meetings and the things I learned were the basis for further growth. Personal honesty was a big one for me and I will be forever grateful for learning how to see myself objectively. I continue to take my inventory daily. Everything good in my life today is because of my work in AA. I don't know how it can be any clearer.

When I left the program after picking up my 2 year chip (which I still have BTW) my Sponser told me "you'll be drunk in a week" he was wrong. L

I want to point something out here which is a common misconception even with people who attend AA. The fellowship of AA is not the program. Nobody "leaves the program". People who "leave" just stop going to meetings of the fellowship of AA. So, just want to make it clear. Nobody "leaves the program" They leave the fellowship and don't take the program. Not taking the program means not taking the steps.

Also, doing 90 and 90 is a common party line in the fellowship but that is not what the big book says to do. Telling someone to go to an AA meeting is a fine idea. But saying they should do 90 in 90 leads them to believe it's all about the meetings when it is not. It's about doing the steps. Using the instructions in the chapter "Working with Others" is the best way to help an alcoholic looking for a way out if you are working the program and actively looking to help alcoholics. Telling an potential alcoholic to go to meetings is fine but caution, doing 90 in 90 is not the program. Check it out. It is not in the book. Taking the steps is the program. Nothing else.

I hope you don't take my correction to hard or the wrong way. IMHO too much incorrect information is floating around out there about AA and that's in part why people like Mobi don't think it works.

[GrahamF]

kerryk

Please don't misunderstand what I'm about. I absolutely agree with everything your saying about the program of AA. I just an hour ago advised a poster who was asking about how to learn to love himself to commit to 90/90 in AA to get sober before any other process can ever have a hope of happening.

I left the program after two years of 110% commitment to it. I loved going to meetings and the things I learned were the basis for further growth. Personal honesty was a big one for me and I will be forever grateful for learning how to see myself objectively. I continue to take my inventory daily. Everything good in my life today is because of my work in AA. I don't know how it can be any clearer.

When I left the program after picking up my 2 year chip (which I still have BTW) my Sponser told me "you'll be drunk in a week" he was wrong. L

I want to point something out here which is a common misconception even with people who attend AA. The fellowship of AA is not the program. Nobody "leaves the program". People who "leave" just stop going to meetings of the fellowship of AA. So, just want to make it clear. Nobody "leaves the program" They leave the fellowship and don't take the program. Not taking the program means not taking the steps.

Also, doing 90 and 90 is a common party line in the fellowship but that is not what the big book says to do. Telling an alcoholic to do 90 and 90 might kill him. Using the instructions in the chapter "Working with Others" is the way to help an alcoholic looking for a way out. Sorry but 90 in 90 is not the program. Check it out. It is not in the book. Taking the steps is the program. Nothing else.

I hope you don't take my correction to hard or the wrong way. IMHO too much incorrect information is floating around out there about AA and that's in part why people like Mobi don't think it works.

I was speaking with my sponsor last night and it so happens that we were speaking about the same thing........90/90. We both agreed that it's fine as long as someone is working the steps, otherwise it can be harmful. A mutual friend of ours shared in a meeting that when he first came to AA, he started doing the 90/90 thing and started to feel better and figured that he didn't need to work the steps....He ended up going back out and drinking, fortunately he came back and worked the steps and has been happy and sober for 18+ years. My case might be a little unique but my sponsor wanted me to try to go to at least two meetings a day when I first started AA as I was an alcoholic with time on my hands and money in the bank, not a good combination. I was also working the steps at the time though. If I remember correctly he became my sponsor in my 2nd week and started me on step 1 in my third week. I must add that a very close friend had been sharing her 20+ years of experience in AA with me and when I finally decided to go she told me to find a sponsor asap and start working the steps asap, so I guess I was open to "jumping in with both feet." I consider myself very lucky.

[trisailer]

I was in and out of AA before I stayed for awhile, that is true for everyone I ever met in AA. Going and doing 90/90 at the very least will plant a seed and those who can't find another way will be back.

AA is a safe place, but it is made up of humans. The best advice for me was to keep my mouth shut and listen. We never learn anything while were busy thinking of what we want to say.

[Sheryl]

I think that maybe one reason for the "90/90" advice was to get people to watch and listen long enough to not to reject AA out of hand based on a superficial look and preconceived biases.

People often come in with a lot of resistance and fear, they see or hear something they don't like -- some others attendees who aren't good role models or to whom they just can't relate, or there's a negative knee jerk reaction to some of the slogans or steps when they hear them read out, whatever.

Suspending judgement until one has been to a large number of meetings allows exposure to a wide range of AA members/attendees and hopefully enough time to see past any initial misunderstandings.

For example someone with strong views about religion - either against it, or strongly attached to a particular one - will often tense up over the "Higher Power" bit and fear it is irreconciliable with their personal beliefs. Early on, they may meet people whose understandings of a HP indeed are not acceptable to them; unfortunately, they may even meet some who are evangelical about it. The gut reaction is to run for the door and never come back. But in 90 meetings, they will have been bound to meet more like-minded people and also to have heard a much wider range of understandings and approaches to this. Lots of people are under the misapprehension that AA requires a belief in a God in the sense of a Supreme Being -- maybe even a belief in Christianity -- before they come, and imagine it to be a group of "Bible thumpers". If they do come and meet people who are like that (and they'll be looking out for them) , or hear people talk about God in what seems to be that way, that's it, preconceived idea confirmed, no AA for them. But in 3 months of meetings they are bound to hear a much wider range of understandings and views and meet people who don't have such beliefs and yet are in the program.

Of course there is nothing magical about exactly 90 meetings, but it helps to set some number as "a lot" or "frequently as possible" has a way of being whittled down and becoming seldom or never. The period of 90 days does have some real basis as that's about the time it takes someone's head to clear when they stop drinking. And since initially stopping can be very hard, daily meetings for that period, even if someone is not working the steops and has nto yet decided about the program, may be a lifeline to help them through it.

If after daily or almost daily meetings for 3 non-drinking months someone decides that AA is not for them, they'll be making that decision based on a much more accurate picture of the fellowship and the program than if they had given up sooner.

Of course 90/90 is just a suggestion, not a hard and fast rule. I don't know about AA but Al Anon has a suggestion against making any major life changes/decisions in the first 6 months, seems like sort of the same idea.

As for the need to actually work the program, of course that's very true, but regardless of how intensely someone attends meetings or not, a lot of people do fail to actually work the steps. Again I can't say for AA but my impression of Al Anon was that among those who attended with any sort of regularity for any period of time, at least half never worked the program.

[likerdup1]

kerryk

Please don't misunderstand what I'm about. I absolutely agree with everything your saying about the program of AA. I just an hour ago advised a poster who was asking about how to learn to love himself to commit to 90/90 in AA to get sober before any other process can ever have a hope of happening.

I left the program after two years of 110% commitment to it. I loved going to meetings and the things I learned were the basis for further growth. Personal honesty was a big one for me and I will be forever grateful for learning how to see myself objectively. I continue to take my inventory daily. Everything good in my life today is because of my work in AA. I don't know how it can be any clearer.

When I left the program after picking up my 2 year chip (which I still have BTW) my Sponser told me "you'll be drunk in a week" he was wrong. L

I want to point something out here which is a common misconception even with people who attend AA. The fellowship of AA is not the program. Nobody "leaves the program". People who "leave" just stop going to meetings of the fellowship of AA. So, just want to make it clear. Nobody "leaves the program" They leave the fellowship and don't take the program. Not taking the program means not taking the steps.

Also, doing 90 and 90 is a common party line in the fellowship but that is not what the big book says to do. Telling an alcoholic to do 90 and 90 might kill him. Using the instructions in the chapter "Working with Others" is the way to help an alcoholic looking for a way out. Sorry but 90 in 90 is not the program. Check it out. It is not in the book. Taking the steps is the program. Nothing else.

I hope you don't take my correction to hard or the wrong way. IMHO too much incorrect information is floating around out there about AA and that's in part why people like Mobi don't think it works.

I was speaking with my sponsor last night and it so happens that we were speaking about the same thing........90/90. We both agreed that it's fine as long as someone is working the steps, otherwise it can be harmful. A mutual friend of ours shared in a meeting that when he first came to AA, he started doing the 90/90 thing and started to feel better and figured that he didn't need to work the steps....He ended up going back out and drinking, fortunately he came back and worked the steps and has been happy and sober for 18+ years. My case might be a little unique but my sponsor wanted me to try to go to at least two meetings a day when I first started AA as I was an alcoholic with time on my hands and money in the bank, not a good combination. I was also working the steps at the time though. If I remember correctly he became my sponsor in my 2nd week and started me on step 1 in my third week. I must add that a very close friend had been sharing her 20+ years of experience in AA with me and when I finally decided to go she told me to find a sponsor asap and start working the steps asap, so I guess I was open to "jumping in with both feet." I consider myself very lucky.

Agreed, and good point. 90 in 90 is a fine suggestion as long as someone is working the steps too, and yes, why not double up if you are out of work and have time on your hands. Taking the steps needs to be in there along with the meetings. With support from the meetings and a good sponsor to guide through the steps a willing alcoholic can become recovered. ( my sponsor loves to say we can be recovered )

Just got back from my service commitment working with 2 sponsees. One just starting his 4th and the other well into his 5th. I'll tell you, what a learning experience it can be to hear a 5th step. Just see myself again and question again where I'm at spiritually. After 18 years I still find myself all I think about sometimes and forget I should be thinking more of others. Progress not perfection.

Enjoying the thread and thank you for the opportunity to write out some of my thoughts on AA. Hope to meet some of you kind folks when I get out to Pats/Jomtien sometime late next year.

Cheers Likerdup1

[Mobi]

I hope you don't take my correction to hard or the wrong way. IMHO too much incorrect information is floating around out there about AA and that's in part why people like Mobi don't think it works.

likerdup1, with the greatest respect, whatever criticisms I may have levelled at AA and however 'questionable' my personal experiences may have been, I have never once said that I do not believe that AA works.

Of course it works - the hundreds of thousands world worldwide who regularly attend AA meetings, work the steps and stay sober are testament to that fact. Furthermore, I must now be into double figures in terms of the number of times on this thread alone I have exhorted people with drink problems to go to AA.

I just don't happen to believe that AA will work for me and that attendance at AA meetings and working the programme is not the ONLY way to sobriety. That is my personal opinion - I may be wrong, but increasingly my research into this matter seems to indicate that I am probably correct.

It really is quite revealing how committed members of AA are so quick to miss-read, and to misjudge and condemn anyone who tries to criticise anything about the AA programme or indeed anyone who may suggest that there are alternative ways of staying sober. I am not writing this in argumentative way, but simply stating it as an observation.

The passion with which AA members defend their organisation and the vehemence in which they 'attack' anyone with an opposing or alternative view is, to me, very interesting; as is the assertion by some people on this thread that I am trying to discourage people from attending AA which is patently untrue.

Again - don't get me wrong - I am purely interested in the motivations of such people and am not trying to take them to task per se. If you do a quick Google on AA on the internet and seek out sites where researchers are questioning some aspects of the AA programme, you will find that there are AA people who attack the researchers or the authors of studies which such intensity that it makes you wonder why they do it?

If they believe that the AA programme works then fine - why can't they live and let live? Or is it because deep down they fear that some unspoken truths will see the light of day? ( For example the true success rate of the AA programme? )

Stanton Peele, Ph.D., J.D., is a seminal figure in the addiction field. He has been a pioneer in applying addiction beyond the area of drugs and alcohol, social-environmental causes of addiction, harm reduction treatment (non-abstinent improvements for addicts), and self-cure of addiction.

He has presented these ideas and data in a series of nine books and over 250 professional and popular articles. Recognition for his academic achievements in addiction has included the Mark Keller Award from the Rutgers Center of Alcohol Studies and the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Drug Policy Alliance. Dr Peele lectures internationally on the meaning, treatment, and future of addiction.

Stanton wrote a positive review on Charles Buf’s ‘AA: Cult or Cure’. I am not going to cut and paste his entire lengthy piece here, as anyone who is interested can Google it. But for the lazy amongst you, here is his closing paragraph:

“But the good news is that America's honeymoon with AA is nearly over. Chaz traces this cultural shift to the recent more critical thrust of popular articles on AA and its 12-step philosophy, repeated negative court decisions on the constitutionality of forcing people to attend AA/12-step programs, and a growing awareness of AA's limited effectiveness…. In the next quarter century, Chaz predicts, what has often been AA's reign of terror over American alcoholism treatment will end….”

I also commend any students seeking to widen their knowledge, to actually read the book reviewed by Dr Stanton, namely: ‘AA: Cult of Cure’, which is available free, on the internet.

If you do not have the time or inclination to read all of it, then just read Chapter 7, which deals with established statistics and facts, many from the AA itself, which clearly establishes the low success rates and the high recidivism rates within the AA programme and the comparable success (or failure) rates of alternative and/or 'do it yourself' treatment. I know you can prove anything with numbers, but I urge you just read it and draw your own conclusions.

But back to my main theme in this particular post, I would like to print a little of Chaz’ s ‘Preface’ to the second edition of his book in which he refers to the distressing reactions from some quarters, following the publication of the first edition:

“Many of the AA members who called during my interviews were polite and respectful, and wanted to discuss issues. But a fair number of others were just the opposite. They had no interest in discussing issues—all that they wanted to do was to attack me personally.

I particularly remember one fake-friendly caller who, after bragging about his time sober, accused me of lying purely for personal profit, and ended his ad hominem attack with, "You sound might thirsty to me!" I remember another vociferous defender of AA, on another program, who insisted that AA was the only route to recovery and that it had worked beautifully for him, but who was obviously drunk when he called.

At about the same time, newspaper and journal book reviews began to appear, and I fairly quickly noticed a pattern: those written by addiction "professionals" were extremely negative, and in two cases, it seemed to me, deliberately misrepresented what I'd said.

As well, from their assertions and phraseology, I felt quite sure that the authors of these reviews were members of AA, but hadn't revealed it to their readers. I felt outraged by this. It seemed to me that their behaviour was simply dishonest. I considered it— and still consider it—cowardly and deliberately deceptive.

Taken together, these two things—the sheer hatefulness of many of the pro-AA talk show callers and the hatchet-job reviews by AA members who hid their affiliation with AA—caused me to begin to question my own conclusions about AA's relative harmlessness…..”

To summarise, as I see it, anyone who is seeking help in achieving long tern sobriety, should, in the first instance, seek the assistance of the AA. If The AA programme works for them and they are able to work the 12 steps and become, sober, happy, joyous and free members of society, then good luck to them.

If however, having tried the AA approach, and for whatever reason, have failed in their quest, then they should not be despondent, as we now know that there are alternative ways to become and stay sober, including, but not limited to ‘going it alone’. And of course, they can always go back to AA at some future date, if other methods also fail to supply the solution.

There! Is that fair enough my friends?

Peace and serenity to all…