Hun Sen Blasts Thailand At ASEAN Summit: Officials

[whybother]

sorry, but too many websites censored.

Here a copy of the MoU http://khmerbird.com...-2000-eng-1.pdf

Censored! :lol: Poor excuse. Maybe you can give me a link and I'll work out another way to access it.

You specifically mentioned wiki. Which pages are censored there? Are all the websites censored, or you just can't find anything linking the PAD leaders and them opposing the MOU when it was signed.

Thanks for the link to the MOU. Does it mention the PAD leaders opposing it?

Maybe you should have read it before saying the MOU was made under Thaksin, seeing as it has Sukhumbhand's signature at the bottom.

[elcent]

The Siamese Government and later the Thai Government had raised no query about the Annex I map prior to its negotiations with Cambodia in Bangkok in 1958. But in 1934-1935 a survey had established a divergence between the map line and the true line of the watershed, and other maps had been produced showing the Temple as being in Thailand. Thailand had nevertheless continued also to use and indeed to publish maps showing Preah Vihear as lying in Cambodia. Moreover, in the course of the negotiations for the 1925 and 1937 Franco-Siamese Treaties, which confirmed the existing frontiers, and in 1947 in Washington before the Franco-Siamese Conciliation Commission, it would have been natural for Thailand to raise the matter: she did not do so. The natural inference was that she had accepted the frontier at Preah Vihear as it was drawn on the map, irrespective of its correspondence with the watershed line.^[3]"

Drawing of temple structuresFollowing the withdrawal of French troops from Cambodia in 1954, Thai forces occupied the temple to enforce their claim. Cambodia protested and in 1959 asked the <A title="International Court of Justice" href="/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice">International Court of Justice to rule that the temple and the surrounding land lay in Cambodian territory. The case became a volatile political issue in both countries. Diplomatic relations were severed, and threats of force were voiced by both governments.

The court proceedings focused not on questions of cultural heritage or on which state was the successor to the Khmer Empire, but rather on Siam's supposed long-time acceptance of the 1907 map. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preah_Vihear_Temple

Edited May 7, 2011 by elcent

[whybother]

Exactly when did our favorite newspaper/ASTV/Manager.com friend split with Thaksin? For that matter when did Chamlong and Thaksin have their falling out?

Elcent --- relax about the founders of the PAD and the MOU in 2000 ... there's nothing there

It's there. It's just censored. National security and all.

[geriatrickid]

Hun Sen has China and Vietnam backing him now? LOL

He has their tacit support. Although Thailand is one of the most important trading partners for China, Thailand has been trying to exert some control over what I would call the dumping of Chinese products into Thailand. The Chinese approach to trade with Thailand has hurt some key Thai industries, and Thailand has acted to protect these industries from the Chinese predatory trade practices. China doesn't like states talking back. The slight support of Cambodia at this time sends a message to Thailand not to get too "pushy" in its reaction. I believe that the Chinese support is predicated on protecting its economic interests in the region. If China wasn't supporting Cambodia it wouldn't be selling Cambodia all those armaments and munitions. It wouldn't be delivering nice military aid and social development funds. The usual response from a country that disapproves of a country's foreign policy is to cut off such aid and China has not done this with Cambodia.

Vietnam's quiet support arises in part because of the dispute over the presumed offshore oil resources. Cambodia is much more amenable to negotiations with Vietnam than is Thailand. Support for Cambodia sends a subtle message to Thailand. The day, Thailand makes nice with Vietnam is the day, Vietnam will adopt a neutral position. I don't doubt for a minute the Vietnamese detest Hun Sen.

I am not making the claim that Vietnam and China are backing Cambodia out of the goodness of their hearts or that they even agree with the Cambodian position. I believe it is motivated because of their respective economic interests. As well, the USA is perceived as being aligned with Thailand in terms of political camps, although its a lot like herding cats. It's all about geo political spheres of influence, and not about whether one side is right or wrong.

Edited May 7, 2011 by geriatrickid

[whybother]

<Snipped ICJ ruling quote> http://en.wikipedia....h_Vihear_Temple

And that's relevant to this discussion how?

The ICJ ruled on the temple. This dispute isn't about the temple.

It doesn't even say anything about the PAD leaders opposing the MOU. Actually, I don't think it mentions the MOU, seeing as the MOU isn't about the temple.

[elcent]

I look at the cause and not the effects, but whybother?

Edited May 7, 2011 by elcent

[jdinasia]

Hun Sen has China and Vietnam backing him now? LOL

He has their tacit support. Although Thailand is one of the most important trading partners for China, Thailand has been trying to exert some control over what I would call the dumping of Chinese products into Thailand. The Chinese approach to trade with Thailand has hurt some key Thai industries, and Thailand has acted to protect these industries from the Chinese predatory trade practices. China doesn't like states talking back. The slight support of Cambodia at this time sends a message to Thailand not to get too "pushy" in its reaction. I believe that the Chinese support is predicated on protecting its economic interests in the region. If China wasn't supporting Cambodia it wouldn't be selling Cambodia all those armaments and munitions. It wouldn't be delivering nice military aid and social development funds. The usual response from a country that disapproves of a country's foreign policy is to cut off such aid and China has not done this with Cambodia.

Vietnam's quiet support arises in part because of the dispute over the presumed offshore oil resources. Cambodia is much more amenable to negotiations with Vietnam than is Thailand. Support for Cambodia sends a subtle message to Thailand. The day, Thailand makes nice with Vietnam is the day, Vietnam will adopt a neutral position. I don't doubt for a minute the Vietnamese detest Hun Sen.

I am not making the claim that Vietnam and China are backing Cambodia out of the goodness of their hearts or that they even agree with the Cambodian position. I believe it is motivated because of their respective economic interests. As well, the USA is perceived as being aligned with Thailand in terms of political camps, although its a lot like herding cats. It's all about geo political spheres of influence, and not about whether one side is right or wrong.

Tacit support .... backroom deals .... I hope there is more evidence for this than that

You are participating in pure speculation. The Chinese currently working on major deals with high speed rail and some projects in Phuket as well as in education in Thailand would tend to tell a different story.

[jdinasia]

I look at the cause and not the effects, but whybother?

Again ... there just isn't anything there regarding the MOU in 2000 and ANY of the people that became the PAD leaders later. Your argument lacks any foundation elcent. Look at the relationships at the time (in 2000) and where the MOU originated, or the fact that the MOU precluded the Khmers from taking any of the disputed lands for themselves unilaterally.

[elcent]

I look at the cause and not the effects, but whybother?

Again ... there just isn't anything there regarding the MOU in 2000 and ANY of the people that became the PAD leaders later. Your argument lacks any foundation elcent. Look at the relationships at the time (in 2000) and where the MOU originated, or the fact that the MOU precluded the Khmers from taking any of the disputed lands for themselves unilaterally.

lets wait and see how it pans out. It doesn't make any sense to look for facts hypocratically. Have a good day, or night , or both ...

[DP25]

Hun Sen has China and Vietnam backing him now? LOL

Hey man, Cambodia exported a whopping 5 billion dollars worth of goods last year (1/40th Thailand), clearly a vital export hub the Vietnamese and Chinese are willing to put all on the line for. I'm sure China is eager to risk their 30 billion dollar deal with Thailand to provide high speed trains

[jdinasia]

Hun Sen has China and Vietnam backing him now? LOL

Hey man, Cambodia exported a whopping 5 billion dollars worth of goods last year (1/40th Thailand), clearly a vital export hub the Vietnamese and Chinese are willing to put all on the line for. I'm sure China is eager to risk their 30 billion dollar deal with Thailand to provide high speed trains

Be nice ... after all people are making the argument that if a country sells arms to another country ......

[elcent]

Hun Sen has China and Vietnam backing him now? LOL

Hey man, Cambodia exported a whopping 5 billion dollars worth of goods last year (1/40th Thailand), clearly a vital export hub the Vietnamese and Chinese are willing to put all on the line for. I'm sure China is eager to risk their 30 billion dollar deal with Thailand to provide high speed trains

ask Gordon Wu, the founder of Skytrain from Hong Kong, how long it took to make the mini line in Bkk. Far over 20 years. A nice guy talking too.

[monkfish]

<Snipped ICJ ruling quote> http://en.wikipedia....h_Vihear_Temple

And that's relevant to this discussion how?

The ICJ ruled on the temple. This dispute isn't about the temple.

It doesn't even say anything about the PAD leaders opposing the MOU. Actually, I don't think it mentions the MOU, seeing as the MOU isn't about the temple.

Of course it wasn't about the temple! lol!

more like win back a few million nationalistic yellow votes before an election, especially after PAD called the null vote.

[DP25]

ask Gordon Wu, the founder of Skytrain from Hong Kong, how long it took to make the mini line in Bkk. Far over 20 years. A nice guy talking too.

He had nothing to do with the Skytrain, he was involved in the Hopewell project that was abandoned after the 97 crash. Shame he couldn't do land acquisition like they do in China, and just evict people in the way, maybe it would have been finished.

[elcent]

ask Gordon Wu, the founder of Skytrain from Hong Kong, how long it took to make the mini line in Bkk. Far over 20 years. A nice guy talking too.

He had nothing to do with the Skytrain, he was involved in the Hopewell project that was abandoned after the 97 crash. Shame he couldn't do land acquisition like they do in China, and just evict people in the way, maybe it would have been finished.

then why was he going(or tried) to sell this project for 8 billion Baht. That was around the same time. I think a bit before that.

[jdinasia]

<Snipped ICJ ruling quote> http://en.wikipedia....h_Vihear_Temple

And that's relevant to this discussion how?

The ICJ ruled on the temple. This dispute isn't about the temple.

It doesn't even say anything about the PAD leaders opposing the MOU. Actually, I don't think it mentions the MOU, seeing as the MOU isn't about the temple.

Of course it wasn't about the temple! lol!

more like win back a few million nationalistic yellow votes before an election, especially after PAD called the null vote.

HUH?

Exactly where do you think the NPP would get a few million votes? You certainly don't think that the Dems would lose millions of votes to a marginalized fringe group's call for a No vote, do you?

[monkfish]

<Snipped ICJ ruling quote> http://en.wikipedia....h_Vihear_Temple

And that's relevant to this discussion how?

The ICJ ruled on the temple. This dispute isn't about the temple.

It doesn't even say anything about the PAD leaders opposing the MOU. Actually, I don't think it mentions the MOU, seeing as the MOU isn't about the temple.

Of course it wasn't about the temple! lol!

more like win back a few million nationalistic yellow votes before an election, especially after PAD called the null vote.

HUH?

Exactly where do you think the NPP would get a few million votes? You certainly don't think that the Dems would lose millions of votes to a marginalized fringe group's call for a No vote, do you?

Not sure of the exact numbers but would guess that PAD still has a fair few supporters nation wide.

Just cos they don't turn up for a 2 month long protest doesn't mean they aren't there, call em armchair supporters if you like.

[jdinasia]

And that's relevant to this discussion how?

The ICJ ruled on the temple. This dispute isn't about the temple.

It doesn't even say anything about the PAD leaders opposing the MOU. Actually, I don't think it mentions the MOU, seeing as the MOU isn't about the temple.

Of course it wasn't about the temple! lol!

more like win back a few million nationalistic yellow votes before an election, especially after PAD called the null vote.

HUH?

Exactly where do you think the NPP would get a few million votes? You certainly don't think that the Dems would lose millions of votes to a marginalized fringe group's call for a No vote, do you?

Not sure of the exact numbers but would guess that PAD still has a fair few supporters nation wide.

Just cos they don't turn up for a 2 month long protest doesn't mean they aren't there, call em armchair supporters if you like.

Yeah right, and not a single one of them would probably choose to No vote, if it meant a PTP slob running against a dem would get a seat. Spread out over the country is probably the only reason NPP would consider not fielding candidates. Not enough support in any one constituency. That everyone claims the PAD represents the "elite" and they claim the same "elite" are based in BKK, and the various yellows can't muster more than a couple of thousand at a protest should tell you all you need to know about the PAD. They had (and could have again) a purpose to exist, but that purpose is just about Thaksin. The real anti-Thaksin main support for the PAD were BKK middle-class .. and they are not standing with the PAD any more.

[anotheruser]

The temple is obviously Cambodian. Let them have the stinking few meters needed to access it and end this nonsense. Thailand has a wealth of other attractions whilst Cambodia is limited in it's offerings. Cambodia has more to lose out of this than Thailand does so they aren't likely to give up that easily.

[whybother]

The temple is obviously Cambodian. Let them have the stinking few meters needed to access it and end this nonsense. Thailand has a wealth of other attractions whilst Cambodia is limited in it's offerings. Cambodia has more to lose out of this than Thailand does so they aren't likely to give up that easily.

I suppose Thailand should give Cambodia all the other "obviously Cambodian" temples to Cambodia, even if they are hundreds of kilometres inside the Thailand's current borders.

Maybe they should give back all the land that the Khmer controlled during the height of the empire. Malaysia and Vietnam should too. It's only fair.

And after that's done, all the European countries should give back land to Italy. Because it's "obvious" that there are Roman buildings and settlements throughout Europe.

[Buchholz]

Elcent -- if you think Hun Sen is doing anything but posturing, and trying to set up things for a close friend AND the contested marine areas .......

Abhisit rightly pointed out that troops at PV are not legal, that under the 2000 MOU troops or settlers in the disputed areas are not allowed etc ...

The 2000 MOU was made under Thaksin and strongly opposed and ignored by Abhisit's mentors the PAD,

This is typical of the current dispute. A bunch of people clueless to the original ICJ decision and/or the 2000 MOU jumping in and making false statements. The 2000 MOU was signed, as the name would suggest, in 2000. Thaksin became PM in 2001. The document was signed on the Thai side by Sukhumband Paribatra, the deputy minister of foreign affairs and long standing Democrat Party member, who just happens to be the current governor of Bangkok, again running under the Democrat banner. The PAD weren't even around back then, so they could hardly have "strongly opposed" it at the time.

Thank you, ballpoint, for the accuracy of your posting.

As said, seems there is so much misinformation being propagated over this issue for whatever reason.

It's refreshing when factual info is put out and the inaccurate or misleading info withers on the vine.

To return to the topic at hand, rather than yet another rehashing of the same old aspects (this must be like thread #309 on them ), it's additionally refreshing to see how Abhisit reacted to Hun Sen's tirade as evidenced by Post # 7.

The differences are staggering.

In the diplomatic aspect of this disagreement, Abhisit scored decisively on it.

.

Edited May 8, 2011 by Buchholz

[Throatwobbler]

The temple is obviously Cambodian. Let them have the stinking few meters needed to access it and end this nonsense. Thailand has a wealth of other attractions whilst Cambodia is limited in it's offerings. Cambodia has more to lose out of this than Thailand does so they aren't likely to give up that easily.

And the land is obviously Thailand's. If there was no temple there there would be no disput, the land would be Thailand's and Cambodia would have no claim. So here's a suggestion do you think Cambodia would offer a bit of it's land to Thailand in exchange for the temple land.

[geriatrickid]

Hun Sen has China and Vietnam backing him now? LOL

Hey man, Cambodia exported a whopping 5 billion dollars worth of goods last year (1/40th Thailand), clearly a vital export hub the Vietnamese and Chinese are willing to put all on the line for. I'm sure China is eager to risk their 30 billion dollar deal with Thailand to provide high speed trains

You might want to look at the deal. China is putting up a big chunk of the money and the ADB is expected to provide generous financing terms. The previous funders of rail packages in Thailand just don't have the money to be as generous as China is right now. China needs to find markets for its railway equipment and steel for the infrastructure. China isn't supporting the rail link because it cares about the well being of Thailand. It's for Chinese strategic interests. The rail lines that can carry products can also carry Chinese troops.

I do not deny that Thailand is one of the most important trading partners for China, but then so is the USA. Did the trading relationship with the USA prevent hostile actions against the USN? (Remember the US plane that was forced down or the USN vessels harrassed when in international waters off of China?

Edited May 8, 2011 by geriatrickid

[jdinasia]

Right ... so in fact you are just destroying your own argument about the Chinese selling weapons to Cambodia.

Again, you claim backroom deals and tacit backing of the Cambodians .... yet have no shred of evidence. Similar claims could as easily be made about the Chinese backing Thailand.

[geriatrickid]

Tacit support .... backroom deals .... I hope there is more evidence for this than that

You are participating in pure speculation. The Chinese currently working on major deals with high speed rail and some projects in Phuket as well as in education in Thailand would tend to tell a different story.

Speculation?

Maybe you should pay more attention to what the Thai Foreign Minister says;

"Russia, India and China might have backed Cambodia's aggression against Thailand on February 4, and now Cambodia is taking the issue to the UN Security Council

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/02/10/national/Thailand-Cambodia-set-to-face-off-at-UN-30148351.html

If I am speculating, then golly gee, you need to tell Minister Kasit to stop speculating too.

[jdinasia]

"might" --- Are you now holding up Kasit as someone to be admired and believed?

then again reading the full article again ....

edit

"might" but didn't would be more appropriate ....... It appears that Kasit was pointing out WHY Cambodia was pushing things at the INSC level ... and we all know how well THAT worked out for Cambodia, now don't we?

Edited May 8, 2011 by jdinasia

[Oberkommando]

Thailand has a wealth of other attractions whilst Cambodia is limited in it's offerings.

Cambodia has the best one of all; Angkor Wat.

I much prefer travelling in Cambodia these days; more friendly, hospitable and just like Thailand was 25 years ago.

Much, much cheaper too.

[geriatrickid]

"might" --- Are you now holding up Kasit as someone to be admired and believed?

then again reading the full article again ....

edit

"might" but didn't would be more appropriate ....... It appears that Kasit was pointing out WHY Cambodia was pushing things at the INSC level ... and we all know how well THAT worked out for Cambodia, now don't we?

You claimed my view was speculation. I provided the best possible illustration of my view with the claim by the Thai foreign minister, the man that is responsible for Thai foreign policy and that is the point man in the conflict with Thailand. And yet, you dismiss his statements by saying he is not to be believed. Hello? He's the foreign minister. You can't accept that you are wrong can you? If the foreign minister of a country makes a statement on the conflict, it is reasonable to believe that he is representing Thailand's position since that's his job.

I am not admiring Kasit. I am providing his statement as an example of why I offered that China was offering tacit support to Cambodia. PM Abhisit does not share your view that minister Kasit cannot be believed because minister Kasit still enjoys the full support of the PM as he is still the foreign minister and still speaking on behalf of Thailand. Unless, you are now going to claim that PM Abhisit doesn't support minister Kasit and the cabinet position is just a facade. Please , go right ahead and dig your hole deeper.

The Chinese do what they believe is in Chinese national interests. They are fully aware of the world economic conditions and know that China is able to replace countries that used to be generous with economic projects. Do not confuse opportunistic economic investments with political support. An example of Chinese behaviour is demonstrated by China's attempts to gobble up Canadian resource companies, At the very same time as Chinese investment officials were playing up the close economic ties between China and Canada and explaining why China was important to Canada's economic interests, the Canadian government was under a ferocious electronic attack that breached the Canadian government's IT infrastructure. The IT attack was traced back to China and it the size and scope of the attack was something that could only be approved by the Chinese government. This is how China operates. China has two faces.

[jdinasia]

I think you should go back and read that article again..... Your view is simply speculation. Canada and China? &lt;deleted&gt;??????

gk your speculation on this is simply that ... Me speculating how Abhisit feels about Kasit would be the same You already destroyed your argument about China SELLING weapons to Cambodia and the post above finishes that argument off (hopefully for the last time.)

I have no idea on what you base your speculation of tacit approval or backroom deals, but hey

[ballpoint]

Thailand has a wealth of other attractions whilst Cambodia is limited in it's offerings.

Cambodia has the best one of all; Angkor Wat.

I much prefer travelling in Cambodia these days; more friendly, hospitable and just like Thailand was 25 years ago.

Much, much cheaper too.

So you'd like Thailand to regress back 25 years? Everything cheap. Everyone poor, but happy. Bit hypocritical of you as you clearly support the reds and their alleged push to change things. Or maybe you just like a despot in charge?