Immigration Arrests 31 Foreigners For Gem Trade

[Flysiam]

MMM Plenty of Farrang,with plenty of money,maybe quite naive of local law.

Boys in Brown looking for a fast buck ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt seriously it is the Boys in brown lookign for a fast buck nor is it naivity on the part of foreigners. They were doing what has been accepted as legal and proper for...forever. No one would have ever considered it illegal to buy things in this country for resale in other countries without special permits and visas. Especially if they were just visiting the country for a short time.

The Gov't or people within screwed up and I hope it REALLY backfires on them. That is the only thing that will help enact some change in this kingdom. TiT

[ThaiPauly]

I just Love the Google related threads at the top of the topic

[sajal]

If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit. Therefore if you are purchasing gems to sell in your own country, you are conducting bussiness in Thailand.

Barry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a tourist pays his hotel bill, isint that also conducting business?

if a tourist buys some handicraft isint that a trade?

how is this diferent from buying jems for personal reasons? <-- he can always change his mind later ;-)

i can imagine the men in brown standing on every hotels cashier arresting the farangs payin their bills.

Edited October 5, 2005 by devil_dog

[Artisan]

One don't even necessarily win in this situation with a work permit.  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a work permit specify the place where one can conduct work? 

Example: I want to open OvenMan GemTraders with its office somewhere in Bangkok. I go through all the rigamarole of registering the company, paid-in capital, x number of Thai employees, blah, blah, blah.  I apply for, and am granted, a work permit for myself.  The work permit specifies my place of business as being my office in Bangkok.  I attend some new gem show in Nakhon Nowhere, conduct some trade and am unfortunately busted in an immigrations sweep for working at a location other than that which is specified on my work permit.

Think this is a ludicrous made-up scenario?  Think again.  This actually happened a few years back to some foreign journalists who were attending a press conference (I believe).  They weren't working at the place of business stated on their work permits (newspaper/magazine office).  I believe this was settled quietly and in a friendly manner but it's a good example of the government using a difficult-to-follow, probably out-of-date, law to show everybody who is boss.

The point I am trying to make is that I feel the anachronistic laws remain as such for two reasons: 1) the powers-that-be simply cannot be bothered to update them to reflect the current business environment (i.e. good ol' governmental inertia); 2) the powers-that-be like the laws just as they are.  The laws as written are handy for the inevitable crackdown that will be ordered from time to time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely right. A work permit specifies the precise place where the work will be carried out and, furthermore, it seems to me that the laws of Thailand are written deliberately vague, meaning exact interpretation is difficult and enforcement must be variable, i.e. when it suits!!!!

Look at this stupid law relating to the sale of alcohol. This law goes back to the 70's when the intention of the then military government was to protect the juvenile community of this country. It's a pity that all of us are classed as juveniles by the Thai government.

[Artisan]

If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit. Therefore if you are purchasing gems to sell in your own country, you are conducting bussiness in Thailand.

Barry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What strange logic. The topic starter said "The Immigration Police Bureau arrested 31 foreigners from India, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia and the US at a gem-trading market in Chanthaburi last Friday on grounds of buying and selling in Thailand without work permits". In Thailand......they were conducting business within Thailand.

These people could buy as many gems as they could afford. Taking them back to wherever is another kettle of fish and selling them wherever might invoke other non-Thai legislation.

[Firefan]

H90 - I highly appreciate your generous offer! I suggest we meet in a dark and seedy bar and do our business...eh...I mean "transaction"!

definitly you are in troubles now. But I tell you something.

I have a WP and a licence to destroy Singha.

So for a small fee, say 500 Baht per can, I am willing to destroy these 6 Singha for you.

what do you think about that offer?

I just bought 6 cans of Singha that I plan to bring back to Scandinavia planning to give them away but might even sell them for a PROFIT (not that THAT matters - even if I give them away I am "doing work").

I am probably in deep trouble now....

Cheers!

[killpog]

'So for a small fee, say 500 Baht per can, I am willing to destroy these 6 Singha for you. '

Heck, I'll do it for FREE!

[westozzie]

THE HIGH COST OF DOING BUSINESS BEUROCRACY AT ITS BEST!

A classic example of being "made an example of" Probably initiated by a few bad deals resulting in someone being p..ssed off and crying foul to the authorites.

A day in the Bangkok Hilton and 2 days somewhere else is enough to get your head right a little stand overish and severe? Hmmm I wonder!

Maybe I will tell my mates back home I wont buy them anything duty free as it may land me in jail next time I come back to Thailand for doing business. Seriously the definition of the term conducting business needs clarification it sends a stand over communistic tactic message to foreigners and does not in any way assist a dwindling ecomony. You would think that export dollars would be detrimental to the society as whole with a budget deficit.

Clarification and reform needed absolutley on this one as far as a trip to the Bangkok Hilton for buying or selling some gems well thats debateable!

Hope they gave the offenders clean underwear I am sure they would have soiled them no doubt!

[JRingo]

Isn't the problem that they "re-sold" some of the gems in-country?

This is much different than simply buying something and taking it home, this is doing business in Thailand.

[RDN]

... more likely that some ahem, competitive business interest, filed a complaint against these gem traders and immigrations was compelled to follow it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Compelled" to the tune of how much, I wonder?

[Johpa]

If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit. Therefore if you are purchasing gems to sell in your own country, you are conducting bussiness in Thailand.

Barry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, well, that mat be a correct, if not overly retentive reading of the law. I know of no other country that would actually prosecute someone for obtaining a simple 30 day visa at the airport who came for a few days to make some purchases or to tend to some other business matter. And especially one never hears about someone who is a buyer being accosted for such irrelevant visa irregularities because most countries understand which party is the freaking customer here. But hey, Thailand is the country of small minds.

The Thais do not have a monopoly on such silliness. My local government here in the US decided that out-of-State buyers who came to industry trade shows held here must obtain local business licenses and pay local taxes on any sales. The end result was that no trade shows hold their business here and the local tax payer supported trade center stands empty most weeks.

[ray23]

Well if it goes wide spread it will have a knock on effect on the clothing industry. I know of many people who come just to buy clothing. If you had to tell them to get a "B" visa they will move onto China as they are already cheaper. Bottom line is you either want the money or not!

3 of my friends arrive 2-3 times a month just to ship out their clothing. The other one ships out 1-2 containers a month of fabric. However their margins are comming under pressure and China is looking more attractive at the moment.

So who knows. This crack down might just push some people over to the next market. Who looses out, factories, hotels, resturants, taxis and basically all! So go ahead demand work permits and "B" visas, they would just end up hurting themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

''The practice of government officials has undermined the country's economy and the Thai gems and jewellery industry

Boy this something new and different here

[JRingo]

quote=barryofthailand,2005-10-05 17:39:26]If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit. Therefore if you are purchasing gems to sell in your own country, you are conducting bussiness in Thailand.

Barry

*

This is a crap story. The quote above is from some unknown source.

also;

Does anyone here actually believe 31 people were "compelled" to lie and admit to a crime? Maybe a couple of dopes would but surely not everyone, would you?

This whole story is crap.

[Scott]

One of the problems in Thailand is the lack of a prosecution of offenses. Here, the gov't passes a law, that is then up to the police to interpret and enforce. The courts are at the far end of the processes. In a lot of countries, there is something like a district attorney who decides what law has been violated. Here it seems it's up to the BiB or the PM!

[fire and ice]

If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit. Therefore if you are purchasing gems to sell in your own country, you are conducting bussiness in Thailand.

Barry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, well, that mat be a correct, if not overly retentive reading of the law. I know of no other country that would actually prosecute someone for obtaining a simple 30 day visa at the airport who came for a few days to make some purchases or to tend to some other business matter. And especially one never hears about someone who is a buyer being accosted for such irrelevant visa irregularities because most countries understand which party is the freaking customer here. But hey, Thailand is the country of small minds.

The Thais do not have a monopoly on such silliness. My local government here in the US decided that out-of-State buyers who came to industry trade shows held here must obtain local business licenses and pay local taxes on any sales. The end result was that no trade shows hold their business here and the local tax payer supported trade center stands empty most weeks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not true that a foreigner MUST have a work permit, or even a non-immigrant B visa to "conduct business" in Thailand.

I have an APEC card an this exempts me from these requirements.

[sanook1]

3 years ago, Thaksin said Thailand was going to be the gem & jewellery hub of Asia

Looks more like it's going to be the arrest and deport hub

......... it's been well on it's way to that for at least the last four and a half years (since TRT came to power).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Taksin has done a great job with thailand, hes put the country on the map, who would you preffer to lead the country? Not that its your place to vote anyway!!

[westozzie]

FROM THE ARCHIVES

Just Embarrassing... (efforts to stop the scam)

There are more current articles than these below, but why bother posting them? It's always the same: foreign embassies and international travel associations demand a stop to the gem scam, but nothing changes.

Bangkok urged to stop jewellery scam

Foreign embassies in Thailand are asking the Thai govt to clamp down on its gem scam operators after tourists complain of being cheated

BANGKOK -- Frustrated foreign embassies are urging the Thai government to clamp down on Bangkok's notorious jewellery scam operators after being swamped by complaints from unsuspecting tourists.

The Australian, British, Swiss and Japanese embassies are now teaming up to request high-level talks with the Thai Foreign Ministry in a bid to crack down on the gem dealers.

Victims are typically approached by ""tuk tuk'' (motor rickshaw) drivers and illegal ""guides'' who waylay tourists outside the city's landmarks, inform them that the attraction is closed that day and offer to help them find cheap jewellery. ""The problem is certainly on the rise,'' British consul Brian Kelly said. "The fact that much of this shady dealing is blatantly going on in the Grand Palace area in full view of the police and Tourism Authority of Thailand officials makes it bizarre.''

Earlier this month, Thai police and the tourism authorities vowed to work together to close down the fraudsters who sell jewellery to tourists at prices far above their real value.

But Bangkok tourist police said it was hard to close down the shady dealers because tourists entered the deals voluntarily and there was no global standard for setting the value of jewels.

About 200 people are arrested in relation to jewellery fraud each month, according to police figures.

They are charged with causing a nuisance and fined a maximum of 1,000 baht (S$41.60).

Thailand's Tourism Authority governor Mr Pradech Phayakvichien had also said that the authorities were trying to reduce the number of gangs who are defrauding the tourists.

You gotta ask yourself by a zirconia or a fake Ruby an go in the can for it for doing business i just love it or sell one to someone and get a 1000BHT fine Ill take the 1000 thanks!

[OlRedEyes]

3 years ago, Thaksin said Thailand was going to be the gem & jewellery hub of Asia

Looks more like it's going to be the arrest and deport hub

......... it's been well on it's way to that for at least the last four and a half years (since TRT came to power).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Taksin has done a great job with thailand, hes put the country on the map, who would you preffer to lead the country? Not that its your place to vote anyway!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On the map?? What map?

[Galong]

If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit. Therefore if you are purchasing gems to sell in your own country, you are conducting bussiness in Thailand.

Barry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If this is true, then just say that you're buying gems for yourself... or is that illegal now too?

[seeker108]

My interpretation of the rules:

The Immigration rules are quite clear here: You need a Non-Immigrant "B" visa in order to conduct business in Thailand. Tourists "TR" or 30-days stamp on arrival "TR30" are not supposed to conduct business here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to agree with Flysiam.

And I'll pick on George (who in my opinion is usually spot-on with his posts) here instead of poor Barry who has been catching all of the flack.

Come on George, what we are dealing with here is not the immigration rule in general, which most all here know, but rather the definition of "conducting business" (as many here have already pointed out) and the time honored precedent that has already been set in Thailand and any other sane country in the world, that attending a trade show and placing orders or even buying goods to bring back home does not constitute "conducting business" and can be done on a tourist visa.

Further, I do not see Thailand nor any other civilized government introducing a major policy change of this sort by simply showing up at the event in gestapo-like fashion and subjecting respectable and ligitimate citizens of other countries to the atrocity of being mysteriously jailed for simply acting in accord with accepted national and international standards.

If the Thai government (or any civilized government) wanted to change the way the system works and require special visas and work permits for attending trade shows and buying at them (about 0% chance they would want this IMHO) they would clearly announce it well in advance of enforcement so that organizers could prepare their attendees. No, I see this as a very misguided blunder on the part of some midlevel official. It is now however up to the the national government to quickly and clearly rectify this this attrocity, if they want to avoid a sudden exodus of foriegn trade from Thailand. I would think that they should quickly identify the official making the mistake and have him/her explain how things went awry. What more happens , would depend on the nature and degree of negligence.

The charges themselves are an interesting can of worms - "...on grounds of buying and selling in Thailand without work permits." If they were selling gems in Thailand then we are talking something more of an arrestable nature I would guess. But if they were selling, why include the buying part? In any case the "source" indicates that there was no selling involved. And why such a general mass arrest that even included farang with proper papers? If there was someone there selling gems illegally then just arrest him and be done with it.

The mass arrest of foreigners for the act of buying at a trade show is what is going to really cause panic in the international buying community in every industry and seriously curtail people coming to Thailand for trade shows, let alone think about buying goods here. After all, how many buyers would want to risk being flung arbitrarily and without warning or reason into a Thai jail?

Again, I suspect this was the work of some midlevel official (with a possible tie-in to the grudge theory already mentioned) who had no idea of what an international backlash and heavy financial loss to Thailand he would set in motion. And again, I think the government in the form of the PM is really going to need to quickly make clear what its policy really is with regard to trade shows if it wishes to both save face and prevent serious financial loss for the country.

Anyway this is my opinion on the basis of the current "facts" presented in this report.

Edited October 5, 2005 by seeker108

[udon]

How about an informed comment from 2 of this website's sponsors??

SUNBELT & INDO-SIAM where are you ?

Like coppers, never around when you need 'em

[westozzie]

This aint the place to vent your spleen about the PM mate we all know how it workks here

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BRONCO how can we ged rid of that bloody CROWS flag!

[bajajvivek]

Its a definite wrong translation of charges. You do not need to have a Work Permit to Buy goods to export to your home country but you definitely need a Business Visa. A tourist Visa will not do.

[pomchopkao]

In a way, I like it when things of this nature happen.

It promotes negatively the country image. Anybody that might have considered coming here for whatever reason might now be a little bit more wary, as if southern insurgencies, tsunami et alia were not enough already!

Always wondered why many affluent non-ethnic-thai thai citizens (e.g. Indians & others), traveled in packs, kept a very very low profile and exploit this country to the marrow! Now we know!

It's that "you are not welcome here" feeling and I guess it's this that induces such behavior and I can't blame them, I'm beginning to feel the same

This type of occurrence should serve all us, non-thais and non-ethnics, to remember what is our true legal standing here and what possible consequences we daily face, vis a vi, the 'application' of the -local- "rule of law" and its consequences.

I like it here, I really do, but I don't like it that much to spend a night or two in the clinker over some.. Errm.. judicial error.

Why not a non-immi B and a WP to shop at Lotus then?

So from an already "low" profile I will now pass to a "no" profile - for a while at least!

[Gonzo the Face]

Gem trade group seeks clear rules on foreigners

BANGKOK: -- The Thai Gems and Jewellery Manufacturers Association has urged the government to issue a clear policy on foreign traders who come to Thailand to purchase cut precious stones, according to president Chirakitti Tangkatat. The Immigration Police Bureau arrested 31 foreigners from India, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia and the US at a gem-trading market in Chanthaburi last Friday on grounds of buying and selling in Thailand without work permits.

An industry source said seven of the foreigners were later released without any charge because they had already held work permits to do business in Thailand while the rest were released on bail. However, none of them was deported.

The source claimed the police had prodded them into confessing that they had conducted both buying and selling activities in Thailand. In fact, he said, the foreign traders purchased cut gemstones from Chanthaburi in order to sell them in their countries and thus did not conduct any illegal activity as charged.

The association yesterday issued a letter urging the prime minister to guarantee that no such action would be taken against foreign traders again and asked him to investigate the incident.

Mr Chirakitti said in the letter that the incident had created confusion and mistrust of the government's free trade policy.

''Some foreigners had just come to do business in Thailand for the first time and were put behind bars for two nights in Chanthaburi and one night in Bangkok. They were treated like criminals. This will create a negative image for Thailand,'' the letter noted.

Mr Chirakitti said Chanthaburi had been known the world over for half a century as a gem-trading centre where direct business could be conducted between small gem cutters and foreign traders. The market in the eastern province provides an alternative to small traders who do not want to deal with major traders in Chanthaburi or Bangkok.

''The practice of government officials has undermined the country's economy and the Thai gems and jewellery industry,'' the letter said.

The association said it was looking forward to a clarification as soon as possible so it could brief customers abroad before they moved their business elsewhere.

Sabahat Ellahi, the president of the Thai-Pakistan Chamber of Commerce, said the government should have a clear and simple regulation on this trade practice and give the business community advance notice of any adjustments before putting them into effect.

Related associations and embassies should also be informed of any new rules so traders coming to Thailand can follow the procedures properly, he said.

However, Mr Ellahi is not in favour of foreigners on tourist visas doing business. They should instead get a non-immigrant visa that allows them to do business in Thailand, he said.

--Bangkok Post 2005-10-05

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Funny how different people read things differently.

After reading 4 pages of posts and comments, some very sensible and pointed and some of the usual asanine and off the wall comments by the usual posters, I have yet to see someone differentiante specifically, between the 'Non Imm B Visa' , and a 'work permit'

About 20 years ago when I was doing this type of thing on a pretty regular basis, I was told and I understood that if I was coming to discuss business with a company or concern here in Thailand, or it I was foming to a trade show, I would need a Non Imm. B [business] Visa. NO BIG DEAL . The entity that I was coming to visit would send me a letter to the effect of inviting me into Thailand to discuss business which I would take to a Thai Embassy or Consulate and request a Non Imm B Visa. I am coming in this example to disucss BUSINESS .End of story.

That is not a TOURIST. If I wish to come and park my rear on a beach chair or bar stool, and sun myself, then I get a 30 day entry stamp, touist visa on arrival and do so .

What is the problem !!!!!

I'll tell you what the problem because most of the negative posters would'nt admit what the problem was if you paid them [if the got paid in Thailand they would need a Non Imm B and Work Permit]

The problem is plain and simple. Thosde persons are just outright LAZY and always want something for nothing.

You requrie a 30 entry TS stamp then get that one!

You require a Non Imm B then get that one!

You require a Non Imm O then get that one!

Don't try to buy a compact car to carry cement and then bitch when the car breaks

Get the visa need and by and large there are no difficulties that YOU DON'T MAKE FOR YOURSELF!

This applies mostly to those who wish to live here on a 30 day TS stamp visa on arrival and bitch and moan when the government says this is wrong.

[ovenman]

About 20 years ago when I was doing this type of thing on a pretty regular basis, I was told and I understood that if I was coming to discuss business with a company or concern here in Thailand, or it I was foming to a trade show, I would need a Non Imm. B [business] Visa.  NO BIG DEAL .  The entity that I was coming to visit would send me a letter to the effect of inviting me into Thailand to discuss business which I would take to a Thai Embassy or Consulate and request a Non Imm B Visa.  I am coming in this example to disucss BUSINESS .End of story.

I think you are missing another half of the equation here: just having the appropriate visa for a given situation doesn't necessarily put one in the clear. Yes, in the circumstances you describe one is doing business in Thailand. However, under the very broadly-defined Thai law that governs work, in these same circumstances one is also performing work in Thailand. Any work also requires a work permit.

99.9+% of the time, business people who follow the course you describe will be fine. There will be no hassles for them. The point (or my point anyway) is that by a strict reading of the law, what these business people are doing is technically illegal. There still exists the risk, however negligible that risk, that such people could find themselves in trouble.

[pomchopkao]

the 'lazy asinus' perhaps it is you my dear Gonzo the Face!

Right you are in your case as an habitual buyer but what if one

of us 30day tourists or whatever other paperwork we are here on, had been

there that day buying "a few jemstones as presents"... would we have been then made to be unwilling guests of some bankok pokie for a day or two ..or not? That is the question...

Not so fast in judging Gonzo the Face

[Sphere]

One don't even necessarily win in this situation with a work permit.  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a work permit specify the place where one can conduct work? 

Example: I want to open OvenMan GemTraders with its office somewhere in Bangkok. I go through all the rigamarole of registering the company, paid-in capital, x number of Thai employees, blah, blah, blah.  I apply for, and am granted, a work permit for myself.  The work permit specifies my place of business as being my office in Bangkok.  I attend some new gem show in Nakhon Nowhere, conduct some trade and am unfortunately busted in an immigrations sweep for working at a location other than that which is specified on my work permit.

Think this is a ludicrous made-up scenario?  Think again.  This actually happened a few years back to some foreign journalists who were attending a press conference (I believe).  They weren't working at the place of business stated on their work permits (newspaper/magazine office).  I believe this was settled quietly and in a friendly manner but it's a good example of the government using a difficult-to-follow, probably out-of-date, law to show everybody who is boss.

The point I am trying to make is that I feel the anachronistic laws remain as such for two reasons: 1) the powers-that-be simply cannot be bothered to update them to reflect the current business environment (i.e. good ol' governmental inertia); 2) the powers-that-be like the laws just as they are.  The laws as written are handy for the inevitable crackdown that will be ordered from time to time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that some accountants of Effective Planners were arrested at the TPI offices? They were sent for due-diligence at the TPI offices while their WP's stated the address of their own office.

[stoneman]

I sent this article to American Citizens Services at the American Embassy and here is the response from them...

"We are aware of the case in question. We have inquired with the Thai

Immigration Bureau, and the response is that if an individual is coming

to Thailand to conduct business, that person should enter on a

non-immigrant B visa which can be obtained at Thai Consulates overseas.

It might be advisable to apply for a non-immigrant B visa at your

nearest Thai Consulate.

Current State Department guidance with respect to entry requirements for

Thailand are as follows, from that State Department website at

www.travel.state.gov. You will note that the entry which does not

require a visa is for tourists only. If you are conducting business, it

is advised that you obtain a B visa:

THAILAND - *Passport required. Tourists staying no longer than

30 days do not need a visa. For longer stays, obtain a visa in advance.

Visa requires 1 application form, 2 photos, postage for return of

passport by mail, and appropriate fee. Transit visa, for stay of up to

30 days, $20 per entry fee, or tourist visa, for stay of up to 60 days,

$25 per entry fee. Extensions may be applied for in Thailand. Transit

and tourist visas require copy of airline ticket or itinerary. Business

visas, valid up to 90 days, require $20 entry fee or $40 fee for

multiple-entry and company letter (on letterhead) stating purpose of

visit, name of company, and address of counterpart in Thailand. (Note:

All visa fees are payable in cash or money order, if applying in person,

or by money order only, if applying by mail. Apply at the Royal Thai

Embassy, 1024 Wisconsin Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20007 (202/944-3600),

or the nearest Consulate General: CA (323/962-9574), IL (312/664-3129),

or NY (212/754-1770). For other Consulates General throughout the U.S.,

call 202/944-3600. Internet: www.thaiembdc.org

Regards,

American Citizens Services"

[ovenman]

Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that some accountants of Effective Planners were arrested at the TPI offices? They were sent for due-diligence at the TPI offices while their WP's stated the address of their own office. 

Now that you mention it, that vaguely rings a bell. No doubt the powers-that-be at TPI didn't want anybody looking at the books too closely. Quick call to immigrations, problem solved!