Muslim men removed from U.S. flight after pilot refuses to fly them

[Wallaby]

He who would sacrifice freedom for security, will wake up one day with neither.

Paraphrasing: Ben Franklin

He who would not, will not wake up at all.

Paraphrasing : Kuffki

:lol: I'll pay that.

[cardholder]

He who would sacrifice freedom for security, will wake up one day with neither.

Paraphrasing: Ben Franklin

He who would not, will not wake up at all.

Paraphrasing : Kuffki

[sarahsbloke]

He who would sacrifice freedom for security, will wake up one day with neither.

Paraphrasing: Ben Franklin

He who would not, will not wake up at all.

Paraphrasing : Kuffki

Kuffers old chap

If you are that concerned about security, and happy to give up a little of your freedom ..... why not just stop flying.

You would then be totally secure from Muslim aircraft bombers!

[cdnvic]

Disagree all you like, but either address each other politely or risk your posts being trashed.

[mca]

He who would sacrifice freedom for security, will wake up one day with neither.

Paraphrasing: Ben Franklin

He who would not, will not wake up at all.

Paraphrasing : Kuffki

You're paraphrasing yourself? Strange.

[bonobo]

Whether it's fair or not, there is not total freedom of religion. I can not claim to worship Ba'al or Queztzalcoatl and demand the ability to sacrifice my children or you (respectively). The respect part of my post comes from the wholey unreasonable demands that Muslims put on non-Muslims. If you pay attention EVERY single time they take offense at something it is without fail due to the fact that their feelings were hurt, they were insulted, or some other such tripe. Notice each and every one of those are respect issues.

You are reading into my response and exaggerating the topic situation. You can worship Ba'al all you want. But when you step over the line and break the law, then that is not protected and I don't think anyone would support any degree of religious rights for that.

I am sorry you can not see the fact that allowing one religious group to continue their stealth advance at undermining EVERYBODY else's freedom is not a restriction on their rights.

How is getting on an airplane a "stealth advance?" I simply cannot see the connection. This seems to me to be rather a broad-brushed condemnation on the religion as a whole.

Your explicit non-support of 'the killing' does not change facts; there have been no Muslims reaching out to the broad Muslim community to refute the supposed twisting of their religion even since 9-11. Wishful thinking and swallowing of smooth lies does not change the fact that the religion is inherently violent. Concerning your argument about Christians fighting Christians; the difference is that extremely few of those instances were even closely identified with religious reasons and most, if not all, of those religious reasons were condemned afterwards. Having said that, if there is a Christian sect that informs the world they will use violence against everyone else, than yes, for the greater good of the world (whether they be Christians, Muslims, Jainists, Hindus, Buddhists, Pastafarians, etc), they should be treated differently.

There are quite a few similarities between the Japanese and Muslims. Both follow(ed) a religion to treat one man as a god (hence the charge of blasphemy leveled against those who criticise Mohammed) and urged violence against others up to and including suicide.

First, I have read quite a bit of condemnation of Islamic violence from other Muslims. Scholars and immans such as Khaleel Mohammed, Muhammad Said al-Ashmawy, and Abdel Karim Soroush have done so, for example.

And Christians not fighting over religion? You don't have to go back to the Peasants War or the Thirty Years War for that. How about Ireland?

Whether it is wanted to be admitted or not ISLAM did ATTACK the WEST. Numerous times. Relentlessly. So anybody who can not prove their lack of commitment to the destruction of liberties that the West enjoys need to be viewed with suspcious eyes. You differentiate between wolves and dogs right? What if there were only Siberian huskies out there? How could you be 100% sure that the lupus you wanted to pet wouldn't take your hand off your arm?

I will concede that the Japanese living in America were treated horribly. However we as a nation learned from that and if the apologists think the country is even close to coming back to that they need to lay off the Kool-aid. HOWEVER, it is not wrong to observe a group of people and treat them based on history. You wouldn't support allowing convicted violent felons access to guns would you? Would that mean that there aren't some that did reform and are perhaps ready for re-integration? More likely than not. However, if you push that through and one ends up bullshitting the system are you willing to accept responsibility for somebody else's death? Are you willing to pay compensation for those who lose lost ones when the Muslims carry out another attack that we are not prepared for since we can't profile people? Another question; if an army invades the country you are living in, are you going to differentiate between those who may have willfully participated in the invasion and killing of your countrymen and those who are there simply because they were drafted? Would you put your neck on the line by treating them as non-bad people until they actually killed someone in front of your eyes?

It's also sad that you actually consider that it's only 'radicals' that use Islam to justify their deeds. If you have read up on Islam you will extremely quickly see that Mohammed is the perfect man that all Muslims are to emulate. How can you insist that Islam is inherently non-violent when the founder was extremely violent?

Islam did not attack the West. Some Islamic groups attacked the West. Christians did not attack Poland in WWII. Germans did. Muslims did not invade Kuwait. Iraqis did. And therin lies the problem. Once we lump everyone together, we add to the problem instead of solving it.

I have been in combat against al Qaeda-led fighters. And I have studied Islam. I have poured through the Quran, so yes, I think I know a bit about the religion. And I find the Quran little different in the contradictions than the Bible.

In my most humble opinion, Islam is not the problem with regards to the current issue at hand. This may not be PC, but to me, there is a huge culture clash between the Arabic/Middle Eastern world and the West (and East). I have worked extensively with Arab Christians, for example, and I find them pretty much mirror images of the radical Arab Muslims. But just as Christianity can and has been used as a justification of evil, so is Islam being used that way. It is being used to justify violence on others by bringing that violence under the umbrella of being a holy act. And they quite frankly lie about Islam (the 72 virgin thing, for example, or the killing fo women and children, which is specifically proscribed in the Quran.)

But not all Muslims accept that. Nor do all Arabs, for that matter. Not just in historical terms (compare the evils done at the orders of Richard the Lionhearted as compared to the moderation of his enemy, Saladin). Others are preaching against the violence. We, as in the West, have been very violent and evil not so long ago. And I believe that the current violence with regards to the radical Islamists can be tamed. And Islam as a religion may actually be part of the solution. And part has to be how we in the West treat Muslims, too.

This incident can do no good. I never wrote that we should not profile. In fact, i wrote the opposite. However, these two men had gone through security. They were exhibiting none of the actions which would cause TSA to suspect them. Yet we let other passengers dictate whether they could get on the plane or not. Where does it end, I wonder? How about stoning anyone who wears robes? Get them before they can detonate the suicide vest that they could have on underneath.

Many Muslims, not just the radical ones, see Islamaphobia in every action we do. And they are right in quite a bit of that, whether those feelings are justified or not. And that is part of the problem. We need to find a solution to the problem, not add fuel to the fire.

[Scott]

I have mixed feelings about the entire issue. On one hand, I agree with the pilot removing people that might pose a threat--not that they were the threat, per se, but their presence on the plane could cause agitation among passengers.

I don't know why passengers would be upset with this group because their dress would have been a huge tip off to the TSA and I have a feeling the baggage on that airplane was the best screened baggage in a seriously long time. I am sure if one those guys had so much as a pierced nipple ring, he would have stripped searched.

On the other hand, I hope that they sue the airlines. Not so much for the money, but to find out where the courts stand on issues such as this.

[bonobo]

It would be better if all muslims in America could dress properly and remove their beards.

Even for safety reasons not to cause panic among the passengers.

They have moved to a western country , they should try to live as a westerner and appreciate their freedom .

Beards strike terror into the hearts of Americans?

It's the murderous intent of those who use the beards to symbolise their supremacist faith that causes concern.

My one line comment was an attempt to make a point which I'll expand on here.

I remember in my youth and early adulthood looking to America with a sense of admiration and envy for its openness, sense of fair play, free speech, welcome to those of other nationalities living under oppressive regimes etc. The list goes on and on.

Post 9/11 I see, rightly or wrongly a nation that has and still is going through a great change. That change is being driven by fear and hatred of terrorist, which is totally understandable and sadly, Muslims as a whole seem to be viewed as a threat along with the terrorists. This change in mindset of some Americans concerns me as I see it a actually playing into the hands of al queda and their ilk. Treat a man like a dog often and long enough and don't be surprised if he turns around and bits you.

Al queda and it's supporters must be rubbing their hands with glee at the anti Muslim sentiments being expressed. After all, their ultimate goal is top get enough Muslims to feel disenchanted with their lot that they pick up the armalite and join the 'holy war' We westerners who whip up anti Muslim sentiment are of great assistance to those we actually despise.

In closing, I would say to Americans, don't let the terrorists b@starts grind you down, don't allow then to change the dreams and aspirations your nation was founded on, don't allow them to turn you into haters.

P.s. I'm sure I could've made my point more eloquently but I hope my sentiment is at least clear.

That is a pretty reasonable post.

[Steely Dan]

My one line comment was an attempt to make a point which I’ll expand on here.

I remember in my youth and early adulthood looking to America with a sense of admiration and envy for its openness, sense of fair play, free speech, welcome to those of other nationalities living under oppressive regimes etc. The list goes on and on.

Post 9/11 I see, rightly or wrongly a nation that has and still is going through a great change. That change is being driven by fear and hatred of terrorist, which is totally understandable and sadly, Muslims as a whole seem to be viewed as a threat along with the terrorists. This change in mindset of some Americans concerns me as I see it a actually playing into the hands of al queda and their ilk. Treat a man like a dog often and long enough and don’t be surprised if he turns around and bits you.

Al queda and it’s supporters must be rubbing their hands with glee at the anti Muslim sentiments being expressed. After all, their ultimate goal is top get enough Muslims to feel disenchanted with their lot that they pick up the armalite and join the ‘holy war’ We westerners who whip up anti Muslim sentiment are of great assistance to those we actually despise.

In closing, I would say to Americans, don’t let the terrorists b@starts grind you down, don’t allow then to change the dreams and aspirations your nation was founded on, don’t allow them to turn you into haters.

P.s. I’m sure I could’ve made my point more eloquently but I hope my sentiment is at least clear.

I respect your argument even though I disagree with some of it. We have a chicken and egg sitution here for sure. Al-Qaeda are just a continuation of an unyielding fundamentalist literal interpretation of Islam that has flared up from time to time throughout history. Similar extremism has occured within Christianity resulting in the crusades when Saladin and the Muslim world was in my oppinion morally superior to the crusaders. The boot is on the other foot now and before the west beats itself up about being the cause of Islamic fundamentalism let it be remembered that Islam has bloody borders with all the other world religions hence my belief being the root cause is internal to the Muslim world possibly due to their own despotic rulers and their relationship with the west.

We don't know the full story surrounding the Imans missing the flight, I suspect this will remain the case as a similar incident was settled out of court a couple of years ago. Perhaps mainstream Muslims in the U.S should be credited with the ability to differentiate between treatment of Islamic militants due to the threat they pose from the attitude of people to mmoderate Muslims. To defer to the demands of a vociferous minority of Muslims does no favours to the majority in my oppinion as it alienates other sections of the population.

You may find the following of interest.

http://www.davidhorowitztv.com/retreat/2011/358-islam

[koheesti]

It would be better if all muslims in America could dress properly and remove their beards.

Even for safety reasons not to cause panic among the passengers.

They have moved to a western country , they should try to live as a westerner and appreciate their freedom .

When I was working in Dubai, one of our Muslim employees back in the US wanted to come work in Dubai. I heard that since he dressed traditionally, had a shaved head and long beard that he wasn't comfortable there (his brother was more westernized and got along fine there). Anyway, when I told this to my colleagues in Dubai and they shook their heads because clients in Dubai don't want to see those type of Muslims either.

[mca]

Once we lump everyone together, we add to the problem instead of solving it.

Stop talking sense please. There's no room for that here.

[bonobo]

To defer to the demands of a vociferous minority of Muslims does no favours to the majority in my oppinion as it alienates other sections of the population.

I don't think we need to "defer" to a minority of Muslims, nor a majority, for that matter. However, we should treat non-criminals with the basic human rights accorded to everyone. And kicking these two men off that flight for being, well Muslim, and other passengers did not like that, is not acceptable, in my opinion.

[chuckd]

Perhaps the pilot of the Atlantic Southeast Airlines flight didn't want something like this to happen on his watch.

______________________________________________________

Passengers, Flight Crew Subdue Unruly Man on SFO-Bound Plane

May 9, 2011 11:51 PM

SAN FRANCISCO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT (CBS 5 / KCBS / AP) — A passenger aboard a Chicago-to-San Francisco flight was wrestled to the floor by flight attendants and fellow passengers late Sunday night after the man began yelling and banging on the cockpit door as the flight approached SFO, according to authorities.

28-year-old Rageh Almurisi of Vallejo was seated in the coach section of American Airlines Flight 1561 when he allegedly started to walk briskly toward the front of the plane within 30 minutes of its scheduled landing at SFO, San Francisco police Sgt. Michael Rodriguez said.

A flight attendant said it seemed, initially, that he was going to the forward bathroom. However, once Almurisi walked past the first class section and the bathroom, the flight attendant asked him to sit back down.

Almurisi apparently ignored the order and started to yell unintelligibly and pound on the cockpit door.

Story continues here: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/05/09/passengers-and-flight-crew-subdue-unruly-man-on-sfo-bound-plane/

[bonobo]

Perhaps the pilot of the Atlantic Southeast Airlines flight didn't want something like this to happen on his watch.

______________________________________________________

Passengers, Flight Crew Subdue Unruly Man on SFO-Bound Plane

May 9, 2011 11:51 PM

SAN FRANCISCO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT (CBS 5 / KCBS / AP) — A passenger aboard a Chicago-to-San Francisco flight was wrestled to the floor by flight attendants and fellow passengers late Sunday night after the man began yelling and banging on the cockpit door as the flight approached SFO, according to authorities.

28-year-old Rageh Almurisi of Vallejo was seated in the coach section of American Airlines Flight 1561 when he allegedly started to walk briskly toward the front of the plane within 30 minutes of its scheduled landing at SFO, San Francisco police Sgt. Michael Rodriguez said.

A flight attendant said it seemed, initially, that he was going to the forward bathroom. However, once Almurisi walked past the first class section and the bathroom, the flight attendant asked him to sit back down.

Almurisi apparently ignored the order and started to yell unintelligibly and pound on the cockpit door.

Story continues here: http://sanfrancisco....fo-bound-plane/

This post reflects one of my main points. Why would anyone assume that two otherwise well-behaving men will suddenly attack the cockpit just because they are dressed in robes?

[Steely Dan]

To defer to the demands of a vociferous minority of Muslims does no favours to the majority in my oppinion as it alienates other sections of the population.

I don't think we need to "defer" to a minority of Muslims, nor a majority, for that matter. However, we should treat non-criminals with the basic human rights accorded to everyone. And kicking these two men off that flight for being, well Muslim, and other passengers did not like that, is not acceptable, in my opinion.

Taking the original article at face value I would have to agree with you, there may be more to the story but that would be speculation. As with many threads at the risk of veering off topic there is often a larger issue providing a backdrop and context for the item in question.

[cardholder]

Once we lump everyone together, we add to the problem instead of solving it.

Stop talking sense please. There's no room for that here.

If you are not one of us, you must be one of them.

A dangerous starting point, I fear.

[bangkokeddy]

The Europol Terrorism Situation and Trend Report 2011

The Hague - The Netherlands.

Terrorism continues to pose a high threat to the security of the EU and its citizens and has become more diverse in its methods and impact. That is the conclusion of Europolls annual review of terrorism, presented today in the European Parliament by the agency's Director, Rob Wainwright.

Europol's EU Terrorism Situation and Trend Report (TE-SAT) records a total of 249 terrorist attacks in the EU in 2010, in which seven people died and scores of others were injured. Most of these were related to violent separatist, nationalist, or anarchist activities. Three attacks were attributed to Islamist terrorist groups, of which two were aimed at causing mass casualties.

...

http://www.europol.europa.eu/index.asp?page=news&news=pr110419.htm

[bangkokeddy]

Muslims aren't the only victims of this kind of paranoia. Sikhs for example are targeted because they wear their turbans and the stupid people think they are terrorists. Its xenophobia. How can anyone defend this? Specially here in Thaivisa forum where we all are the foreigners and the Others.

The OP reminds me on another news story few weeks ago. Three Mexicans and their morning prayer aboard an Alaska Airlines flight caused a security alert.

----------

Alaska Flight 241 from Mexico City to Los Angeles International Airport landed safety at LAX and was met by fire crews, foam trucks, FBI agents, Transportation Security Administration personnel and police dispatched as a precaution.

The three men, all Mexican nationals, were escorted off the plane by police and questioned by the FBI before being released to make connecting flights to other countries, FBI spokeswoman Laura Eimiller said. No charges were filed, she said.

The three passengers had startled members of the cabin crew with what was interpreted as suspicious behavior shortly after takeoff, airline spokeswoman Bobbie Egan said.

"The three passengers were praying aloud in Hebrew and were wearing what appeared to be leather straps on their foreheads and arms," she said. "This appeared to be a security threat, and the pilots locked down the flight deck and followed standard security procedures."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/13/us-security-plane-prayers-idUSTRE72C3NX20110313

[bonobo]

Muslims aren't the only victims of this kind of paranoia. Sikhs for example are targeted because they wear their turbans and the stupid people think they are terrorists. Its xenophobia. How can anyone defend this? Specially here in Thaivisa forum where we all are the foreigners and the Others.

The OP reminds me on another news story few weeks ago. Three Mexicans and their morning prayer aboard an Alaska Airlines flight caused a security alert.

----------

Alaska Flight 241 from Mexico City to Los Angeles International Airport landed safety at LAX and was met by fire crews, foam trucks, FBI agents, Transportation Security Administration personnel and police dispatched as a precaution.

The three men, all Mexican nationals, were escorted off the plane by police and questioned by the FBI before being released to make connecting flights to other countries, FBI spokeswoman Laura Eimiller said. No charges were filed, she said.

The three passengers had startled members of the cabin crew with what was interpreted as suspicious behavior shortly after takeoff, airline spokeswoman Bobbie Egan said.

"The three passengers were praying aloud in Hebrew and were wearing what appeared to be leather straps on their foreheads and arms," she said. "This appeared to be a security threat, and the pilots locked down the flight deck and followed standard security procedures."

http://www.reuters.c...E72C3NX20110313

A Sikh at a gas station was attacked immediately after the Oklahoma City bombing. The attacker, who was arrested, was angry about the bombing. Not only was the Sikh not the Muslim the attacker thought, but as we know, the bomber himself was not Muslim.

[Steely Dan]

Muslims aren't the only victims of this kind of paranoia. Sikhs for example are targeted because they wear their turbans and the stupid people think they are terrorists. Its xenophobia. How can anyone defend this? Specially here in Thaivisa forum where we all are the foreigners and the Others.

Jews aren't exempt either. Infact the centre for security policy did a study on religous bias crimes in the U.S (2008-9) and found the following.

According to the Center's analysis, in 2009, Jewish victims of hate crimes outnumbered Muslim victims by more than 8 to 1 (1,132 Jewish victims to 132 Muslim victims). From 2000 through 2009, for every one hate crime incident against a Muslim, there were six hate crime incidents against Jewish victims (1,580 Muslim incidents versus 9,692 Jewish incidents). Even in 2001 when religious bias crimes against Muslims increased briefly for a nine-week period, total anti-Muslim incidents, offenses and victims remained approximately half of the corresponding anti-Jewish totals.

Kind of surprising considering the Jews have no history of blowing up civilian aircraft or flying them into tall buildings.

[sarahsbloke]

A Sikh must carry a knife at all times, wonder how they are allowed on aircraft?

[bonobo]

Muslims aren't the only victims of this kind of paranoia. Sikhs for example are targeted because they wear their turbans and the stupid people think they are terrorists. Its xenophobia. How can anyone defend this? Specially here in Thaivisa forum where we all are the foreigners and the Others.

Jews aren't exempt either. Infact the centre for security policy did a study on religous bias crimes in the U.S (2008-9) and found the following.

According to the Center's analysis, in 2009, Jewish victims of hate crimes outnumbered Muslim victims by more than 8 to 1 (1,132 Jewish victims to 132 Muslim victims). From 2000 through 2009, for every one hate crime incident against a Muslim, there were six hate crime incidents against Jewish victims (1,580 Muslim incidents versus 9,692 Jewish incidents). Even in 2001 when religious bias crimes against Muslims increased briefly for a nine-week period, total anti-Muslim incidents, offenses and victims remained approximately half of the corresponding anti-Jewish totals.

Kind of surprising considering the Jews have no history of blowing up civilian aircraft or flying them into tall buildings.

Despite the Crusades and the Arab occupation of the Iberian lands, the West has far more practice in prejudice against Jews than against Arabs/Muslims. In the US, I think the anti-Muslim feelings are really quite new.

Couple that with the fact that there are far more Jews in the US than Muslims, and the numbers are not so surprising.

I would be curious to see what the figures would be in the UK or France, where there is a far more evident Arab/Muslim presence, often in the poorer areas and which has broken out in violence on numerous occasions, and where some Muslim activists openly advocate for Sharia Law in those countries.

In the US, the most "Muslim" population is in Michigan, and the Muslims there are not too much into the robes and veils as Muslim populations are in some other areas of the world.

[Steely Dan]

Despite the Crusades and the Arab occupation of the Iberian lands, the West has far more practice in prejudice against Jews than against Arabs/Muslims. In the US, I think the anti-Muslim feelings are really quite new.

Couple that with the fact that there are far more Jews in the US than Muslims, and the numbers are not so surprising.

I would be curious to see what the figures would be in the UK or France, where there is a far more evident Arab/Muslim presence, often in the poorer areas and which has broken out in violence on numerous occasions, and where some Muslim activists openly advocate for Sharia Law in those countries.

In the US, the most "Muslim" population is in Michigan, and the Muslims there are not too much into the robes and veils as Muslim populations are in some other areas of the world.

Here is a UK link from 2006, Jews are four times more likely to be victims of hate crimes than Muslims in the UK the absolute numbers were greater too. I fear France is even worse for antisemitic attacks.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1537128/Jews-far-more-likely-to-be-victims-of-faith-hatred-than-Muslims.html

[bangkokeddy]

Muslims aren't the only victims of this kind of paranoia. Sikhs for example are targeted because they wear their turbans and the stupid people think they are terrorists. Its xenophobia. How can anyone defend this? Specially here in Thaivisa forum where we all are the foreigners and the Others.

Jews aren't exempt either. Infact the centre for security policy did a study on religous bias crimes in the U.S (2008-9) and found the following.

According to the Center's analysis, in 2009, Jewish victims of hate crimes outnumbered Muslim victims by more than 8 to 1 (1,132 Jewish victims to 132 Muslim victims). From 2000 through 2009, for every one hate crime incident against a Muslim, there were six hate crime incidents against Jewish victims (1,580 Muslim incidents versus 9,692 Jewish incidents). Even in 2001 when religious bias crimes against Muslims increased briefly for a nine-week period, total anti-Muslim incidents, offenses and victims remained approximately half of the corresponding anti-Jewish totals.

Kind of surprising considering the Jews have no history of blowing up civilian aircraft or flying them into tall buildings.

And your unbiased source is? Why not post a link?

[Steely Dan]

And your unbiased source is? Why not post a link?

I nearly always post links, just overlooked this one, so if it makes you happy (though I doubt it) here it is.

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/p18663.xml

[kuffki]

Muslims aren't the only victims of this kind of paranoia. Sikhs for example are targeted because they wear their turbans and the stupid people think they are terrorists. Its xenophobia. How can anyone defend this? Specially here in Thaivisa forum where we all are the foreigners and the Others.

Jews aren't exempt either. Infact the centre for security policy did a study on religous bias crimes in the U.S (2008-9) and found the following.

According to the Center's analysis, in 2009, Jewish victims of hate crimes outnumbered Muslim victims by more than 8 to 1 (1,132 Jewish victims to 132 Muslim victims). From 2000 through 2009, for every one hate crime incident against a Muslim, there were six hate crime incidents against Jewish victims (1,580 Muslim incidents versus 9,692 Jewish incidents). Even in 2001 when religious bias crimes against Muslims increased briefly for a nine-week period, total anti-Muslim incidents, offenses and victims remained approximately half of the corresponding anti-Jewish totals.

Kind of surprising considering the Jews have no history of blowing up civilian aircraft or flying them into tall buildings.

And your unbiased source is? Why not post a link?

Better yet, do you have a link stating otherwise? that Jews do blow up civilian aircrafts? or fly them into tall building?

[bangkokeddy]

And your unbiased source is? Why not post a link?

I nearly always post links, just overlooked this one, so if it makes you happy (though I doubt it) here it is.

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/p18663.xml

Okay. Brought you by the people who think Obama is a 'Muslim'.

So much for an unbiased source. Its a paper from an alarmist anti-islam propaganda central.

Anyway, lets look at the data. the 'study' is some half truth reporting, some selective picks from some FBI statistics. (and that is the only data source they use.)

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/victims.html

The FBI puts what they called hate crimes into different categories.

- bias against a race.

- bias against a religious belief.

- bias against a particular sexual orientation.

- bias against an ethnicity/national origin.

- bias against a disability

the centerforsecuritypolicy now takes only the figures for hate crimes listed under "bias against a religious belief." But ignores other categories like "bias against an ethnicity/national origin."

Lets take two hypothetical hate crime victims. A kosher butcher shop in New York and a halal delicatessen & arab music tapes shop in Detroit.

Overnight both shop front got vandalized, windows smashed, hate slurs sprayed at the wall.

The kosher butcher is in the same street since 1912. It was opened by immigrants from Germany. the halal food and music tapes shop just opened recently, by the son of immigrants from Jordan. That makes him to someone what is in US America perceived as foreign ethnicity/national origin. as one of the others.An Asian.

So how likely is it now that the attack at the New York butcher shop ends up as Anti-Jewish in the bias against a religious belief category meanwhile the shop in Detroit will be filled under against an ethnicity/national origin. and not as Anti-Islamic?

There is a problem with these categories, it are just constructs and the boundaries between them overlap.

And how many of Anti-Jewish hate crimes are really bias against a religious belief and not just stupid dumb antisemtism. Hatred of their ethnic and cultural background or whatever issue the hater has with the Jew. In most cases its not about religion, they hate the people, they will also hate a secular Jew or a baptized convert.

But Anti-Jewish hate crimes might be still different to put in one of the categories above. the race category seems to be for Anti-White, Anti-Black, Anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native, Anti-Asian/Pacific Islander issues. And some might be offended if you label them as race.

Ethnicity/National Origin knows in detail only Anti-Hispanic and Anti-Other Ethnicity/National Origin. Some might be offended if you put them in the same category with the Hispanics and all others. Jews are integrated in the 'American life', they are 'one of us', speak our language, we don't think of them as the others. difficult to label them as of some foreign Ethnicity National Origin. or lets say to say that Jews are Asian.

So in doubt, Anti-Jewish must be Anti religious next to Anti-Catholic, Anti-Protestant, Anti-Islamic, Anti-Other Religion, Anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc.

I am not criticizing the work of the FBI, but the way how the agitprop team at centerforsecuritypolicy reads this data. Its a classic example of how to lie with statistics.

There seems to be also a higher public awareness about what is considered as hate crime and hate speech when it comes to antisemitism meanwhile when it comes to acts of Islamophobia some accept it as normal, a valid opinion and see nothing wrong with it.

Throwing pork sausages at Muslims seems to be for some people a party, fun pr defense of western civilisation. Try that in front of a synagogue and you will get arrested for hate crime.

[bangkokeddy]

Better yet, do you have a link stating otherwise? that Jews do blow up civilian aircrafts? or fly them into tall building?

Why dragging Jews here into the topic?

These two men were not on the plane to blow it up. period. Everything else is your paranoia.

[bonobo]

Despite the Crusades and the Arab occupation of the Iberian lands, the West has far more practice in prejudice against Jews than against Arabs/Muslims. In the US, I think the anti-Muslim feelings are really quite new.

Couple that with the fact that there are far more Jews in the US than Muslims, and the numbers are not so surprising.

I would be curious to see what the figures would be in the UK or France, where there is a far more evident Arab/Muslim presence, often in the poorer areas and which has broken out in violence on numerous occasions, and where some Muslim activists openly advocate for Sharia Law in those countries.

In the US, the most "Muslim" population is in Michigan, and the Muslims there are not too much into the robes and veils as Muslim populations are in some other areas of the world.

Here is a UK link from 2006, Jews are four times more likely to be victims of hate crimes than Muslims in the UK the absolute numbers were greater too. I fear France is even worse for antisemitic attacks.

http://www.telegraph...an-Muslims.html

Wow. I am really surprised. Now you have me wondering why. I can sort of see in the US, but in the UK?

[kuffki]

Better yet, do you have a link stating otherwise? that Jews do blow up civilian aircrafts? or fly them into tall building?

Why dragging Jews here into the topic?

These two men were not on the plane to blow it up. period. Everything else is your paranoia.

sO THAT would be a NO

I did not bring it in, read again post 204 where you requested the link for a statement made by Dan

These 2 men are not in question for which you requested the links, are they?

But never mind, in same old fashion when you can not provide any evidence, just either change the subject or claim it to be off topic-please carry on.