Bro'S Before Hoe'S

[krangeek]

It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate.

Im not ridiculing your decision to attend this group to strengthen yourself. Your tribe was weak, and you left it to strengthen your position. Got it.

But your like an alcoholic who sobers up. Now you've found YOUR way, you deem everyone else who hasn't opted for YOUR way, as inferior.

You've attempted to bait us several times with this topic. Some of us, joked and busted your chops, but for the most part ignored you. Now you open a discussion, but won't discuss.

You only want to project your views on us. It's called trolling.

You insist that since you have become feminized that it has made you a better person, and I have no doubt that it has. For you.

Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour you want to demonize someone else (Father). It's your generations and your cultures way.

Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves.

We don't require a group to manufacture our character.

You are just tender, and that is OK. It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1...and then some.

Well said.

+2

While we're at any ideas as to a good substitute for Johnson Baby Oil?

The shop has run out and I really not feel like dry wanking so should I opt for olive oil, Vaseline or one of those Durex massage oils such as Play or Tingle?

Ofcourse nothing beats the Mrs spit but I feel a long session coming up and she usually gets a dry mouth after ten minutes or so.

If you were any good, she wouldn't need Vaseline. Learn, boy. Poor cow.

Edited May 22, 2011 by krangeek

[mstribling]

It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate.

Im not ridiculing your decision to attend this group to strengthen yourself. Your tribe was weak, and you left it to strengthen your position. Got it.

But your like an alcoholic who sobers up. Now you've found YOUR way, you deem everyone else who hasn't opted for YOUR way, as inferior.

You've attempted to bait us several times with this topic. Some of us, joked and busted your chops, but for the most part ignored you. Now you open a discussion, but won't discuss.

You only want to project your views on us. It's called trolling.

You insist that since you have become feminized that it has made you a better person, and I have no doubt that it has. For you.

Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour you want to demonize someone else (Father). It's your generations and your cultures way.

Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves.

We don't require a group to manufacture our character.

You are just tender, and that is OK. It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1...and then some.

Well said.

+2

While we're at any ideas as to a good substitute for Johnson Baby Oil?

The shop has run out and I really not feel like dry wanking so should I opt for olive oil, Vaseline or one of those Durex massage oils such as Play or Tingle?

Ofcourse nothing beats the Mrs spit but I feel a long session coming up and she usually gets a dry mouth after ten minutes or so.

If you were any good, she wouldn't need Vaseline. Learn, boy. Poor cow.

You do understand what he is talking about don't you?

He's getting a jerk. Being good has nothing to do with it.

But I do like you regaling us with tips for sexual prowess.

Who could pass up those tips on the Internet?

[StreetCowboy]

"If i , had been a high flying exec , had travelled on some kind of special boat , had survived masturbation group therapy , had time to read a lot of books , had a direct line with the deceased , a natural danger revealing sense and bullet proof skin , I would be well happy with that and probably looking for a new hobby like playing the uke or whatever"

See, now your starting to get it! That's the whole point. I love the life I have I don't need a new hobby because it is enough just to be who I am.

Are you seriously saying that you don't dream of playing the Ukelele like George Formby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55-oNqY1yTU

Surely every real man aspires to such greatness!

SC

[jayjayjayjay]

All of my childhood friends who suffered abuse have had difficulty managing their lives. It confirms the science.

......

Actually I'm glad I left the masturbation comment in. It generated the exact kinds of comments that is the basis of the reason that men would rather kill themselves than talk about whatever issues are troubling them.

You come across as WEAK.

You are a weak man, who comes by your own admission, from a family of weak men.

I'm sure loads of other weak men will agree with you, that's what weak men do.

Some people describe weak man as a 'pansy'.

You have totally been convinced by the feminist BS to try and subdue and control men.

Seems you have never had a relationship with a Thai lady, just as well, they have little mercy for the weak.

Ouch

The continuous use of the word "gay" by trisailor leads me to believe he needs to go a little further with his search into his sexuality!! Everything else then falls into place, hated of his fathers so called beatings, little talk of his mother, group therapy with the boys, belief that a leather belt on the ass is a beating (ridiculous), the list goes on.

PS. I have many homosexual friends, my gf's brother/sister is a very beautiful ladyboy and I admire gay people of live there lives in the open.

[bendejo]

...

2. "Most men live in isolation from other men because of their fear that they might want to have sex with a man."

What a bizzare statement.

...

Yeah, that's about as far as I got in reading the OP. Poor fellow has issues.

[trisailer]

"It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate."

- What planet did you say you you were living on?

"Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour..."

- Can I assume that you didn't go to college? Who needs it? Who needs science? Facts?

"Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves."

- How would you know if you did?

It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

- See my second reply.

I presented the idea that men can benefit from self examination. I presented some statistics to support my claim that dysfunctional men are damaging themselves and others. Many of you have demonstrated my point.

thank you

[NotBitter]

Male group??!! what the hell is that??????? Never heard of such a thing!!............. hmmm (penny drops) Do you shower together in these male groups????

Edited May 22, 2011 by NotBitter

[Ulysses G.]

The continuous use of the word "gay" by trisailor leads me to believe he needs to go a little further with his search into his sexuality!!

He might as well just admit the truth to himself and stop all the equivocating.

[mario299]

The OP has many times referred to "the science". and I have to ask what exactly is he referring to?

Group meetings are not "science", men's clubs etc., are not "science", what is this science he keeps talking about? Is it psychology or psychiatry he is talking about? This, too is not "science" but rather OPINION, and most certainly hearsay opinion based on guessing of actions and reactions of stimulations under certain circumstances passed on by people who were just guessing to begin with.

Like many have said in the past, there are too many lawyers for our own good. I say, for the present there are too many psychiatrists/psychologists for our own good. When I was growing up if something bad happened to someone they just dealt with it. Nowadays everyone must have counseling for dealing with the trauma of it all. You had too much sugar when you were a child so now you need a psychiatrist or medication.

Our children of today are over-medicated and over-counseled so if you think you needed a men's group to deal with your problems from your abused youth, then think about what our children will need to deal with their youth.

I don't know about this thread, but I have to think perhaps it's like someone else suggested...like a recovering alcoholic that now must make everyone see things his way. Best of luck to you, but I do have to say that I am certainly not from the same America you come from.

mario299

Edited May 22, 2011 by mario299

[dressedingreen]

One of the most interesting groups I worked with was my own maintenance crew in a paper mill. These guys were Harley riding, hard drinking, fist fighting mens men so you can imagine their initial resistance. What I discovered was that the tougher the man the less homophobic they were and the less they cared what anyone thought. It was one of my most gratifying career accomplishments to teach them how to be a part of the management process through quality circles. After a bit of training they would choose one of them to make a presentation to management and they were exceptional at it.

I worked for an American management consultancy back in the 1980's. Some of their programs used video sequences to illustrate key principles. This was around the time quality circles had started to take root in American corporate culture, having traveled over from Japan. I spent almost 6 months in New York's Greenwich village, Anglocizing the American videos, using English actors, because many UK businesses found the content to be irrelevant to English culture. The American approach was seen as too feminine for the culture in the average British machine shop or tech, dept. After the videos were changed, the acceptance level was much higher. And the time taken for the average work group to 'get' the principles of sustained cooperation was greatly lessened. Language, or the application of nuanced semantics, plays an important part in levels of acceptance of corporate, group or individual change.

On a more personal note, I can see your frustration with some of the responses in here. Like the remoulded gambler, alcoholic or serial monogamist, it can be hard to see others not only fail to address similar problems, but refuse even to acknowledge there IS a problem. But as another poster said in this thread, and I'm paraphrasing, we are each on our own journey. Many, perhaps most, will fail to 'get it' in this life. The exercising of personal freedom is both illusory, at least in part, and often at the expense of the freedom of others. To feel so abused by someone in a culture from which we have moved, that we may be prepared to visit the same abuse on a citizen from another culture (perhaps less capable, educated) is to perpetuate the cycle. And any children who may come from such a union will almost certainly exhibit similar traits in their early adult lives. The cycle prevails. Breaking these cycles is extraordinarily difficult. The human animal doesn't like change. Like the daughter of an alcoholic father, who is drawn to marry an alcoholic, and lives in a situation of abuse and fear, failing to see that a door is a door and we have the option to go through it and never return, many continue to live in comfortable discomfort.

Perhaps there's comfort in knowing the responses, although largely negative, have come. It hasn't been ignored. So it isn't irrelevant to the lives of many men who frequent this board. If you've managed corporate change, you'll recognize that the first expression of pain is anger, and more often than not, denial.

For anyone who would like to take a personal foray into the area of understanding masculinity, and managing their own change in a world that constantly demands it, I'd recommend this book ... ... 'The Myth of Male Power', by Warren Farrell. Finch Publishing, ISBN 1 876451 30 0. I wouldn't recommend most start with Robert Bly's 'Iron John' which, IMO, takes too much of a mythopoetic approach, and should perhaps be held back until the reader can gain some appreciation of the reality of the problem of masculinity in today's world.

Having said that, this is a quote from Robert Bly. One I particularly like ...

"A lazy part of us is like a tumbleweed.

It doesn’t move on its own. Sometimes it takes

A lot of Depression to get tumbleweeds moving."

Khun mi wan sabai!

:jap:

DIG

[jayjayjayjay]

The continuous use of the word "gay" by trisailor leads me to believe he needs to go a little further with his search into his sexuality!!

He might as well just admit the truth to himself and stop all the equivocating.

..

[sarahsbloke]

I presented the idea that men can benefit from self examination. I presented some statistics to support my claim that dysfunctional men are damaging themselves and others. Many of you have demonstrated my point.

thank you

I agree, gay men who reject their sexuality are going to have a problem.

But those of us who accept our sexuality (gay or hetero) don't need any group to help us out.

[mstribling]

"It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate."

- What planet did you say you you were living on?

"Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour..."

- Can I assume that you didn't go to college? Who needs it? Who needs science? Facts?

"Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves."

- How would you know if you did?

It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

- See my second reply.

I presented the idea that men can benefit from self examination. I presented some statistics to support my claim that dysfunctional men are damaging themselves and others. Many of you have demonstrated my point.

thank you

Great responses. Your group really helped your inter-personal relationship skills.

Attack and attempt to discredit anyone who disagrees with you.

Your responses where childish insults designed to deflect the issues. Typical of the clever.

To answer your questions/responses.

1.I am from the planet Earth.

2. I have a BS in Management studies, and your not using science or facts, just assumptions. You cherry-pick "facts" from google, and discard anything that counters.

3. I am my own best friend so I would pretty much know if there was a problem.

4. I saw your 2nd reply. Not sure how my education level pertains to your "manliness" I pretty much said it's OK. For you. Do you insist it must be universal?

No one has even mentioned that self-examination is detrimental. I think everyone does it.

Your 2nd sentence is word sausage. Of course dysfunctional men are damaging... Thats the definition. Good filler though.

Good closing attack, leave with an insult.

You started this thread as a tender man who is coping with himself through life. I countered that your American culture has made you a professional victim.

I can assume that during your feminization they disclosed their arguing techniques to you. You have mastered them.

In the end it's working for you, and thats the important part.

I grew up in a culture that demands that men edit themselves. Its hard to lead from the front when your in tears.

Predators or prey. Whats it going to be?

[Crushdepth]

I'm not bothered by the childish comments, I expected them. I've lead business workshops aimed at improving dysfunctional companies and this is the way men typically respond initially. Once they get over the giggles and learn a few things they begin to see the value in it.

If you are dysfunctional and find weird therapies helpful, good for you. Don't imagine that everyone else is. Frankly I think your posts are a load of trollish crap.

[dressedingreen]

"It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate."

- What planet did you say you you were living on?

"Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour..."

- Can I assume that you didn't go to college? Who needs it? Who needs science? Facts?

"Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves."

- How would you know if you did?

It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

- See my second reply.

I presented the idea that men can benefit from self examination. I presented some statistics to support my claim that dysfunctional men are damaging themselves and others. Many of you have demonstrated my point.

thank you

Stick to the facts. You'll never win a flame war, and it diminishes the value of the original post.

DIG

[mstribling]

"It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate."

- What planet did you say you you were living on?

"Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour..."

- Can I assume that you didn't go to college? Who needs it? Who needs science? Facts?

"Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves."

- How would you know if you did?

It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

- See my second reply.

I presented the idea that men can benefit from self examination. I presented some statistics to support my claim that dysfunctional men are damaging themselves and others. Many of you have demonstrated my point.

thank you

Stick to the facts. You'll never win a flame war, and it diminishes the value of the original post.

DIG

well said.

[trisailer]

Thanks again DIG for the book "The Myth of Male Power" and the advice.

I checked out the authors website and read through the chapter descriptions. It occurs to me that it has been a long time since I was interested in reading about this stuff. When our group ended our regular meetings we all had reached a point of "let's stop talking about it and go out and live it" The tools I gained were a huge help in establishing better balance and my crisis was over. I used the tools and my life got better.

Upon reflection I am reminded that people are usually not interested in change unless they are in crisis. I remember the first time I was dragged (kicking and screaming) into a marriage counselor by my wife 30 years ago. I though the whole process was gay and a waste of time. I believed that I was OK just the way I was at the time and resisted changing anything. I would have reacted the exact same way many of the posters here have reacted.

I posted the topic to suggest an explaination for what I see as a lot of dysfunctional men living in Thailand. I probably could have presented it better.

[StreetCowboy]

Thanks again DIG for the book "The Myth of Male Power" and the advice.

I checked out the authors website and read through the chapter descriptions. It occurs to me that it has been a long time since I was interested in reading about this stuff. When our group ended our regular meetings we all had reached a point of "let's stop talking about it and go out and live it" The tools I gained were a huge help in establishing better balance and my crisis was over. I used the tools and my life got better.

Upon reflection I am reminded that people are usually not interested in change unless they are in crisis. I remember the first time I was dragged (kicking and screaming) into a marriage counselor by my wife 30 years ago. I though the whole process was gay and a waste of time. I believed that I was OK just the way I was at the time and resisted changing anything. I would have reacted the exact same way many of the posters here have reacted.

I posted the topic to suggest an explaination for what I see as a lot of dysfunctional men living in Thailand. I probably could have presented it better.

Presenting it better would not have given us the same opportunity to parade our inadequacies, intolerance and insecurities.

Anyway, pearls before swine

SC

[SteeleJoe]

I would have reacted the exact same way many of the posters here have reacted.

And yet you reacted with aggression and insults to them.

So much for balance. Or "strength and honor"...or self-awareness.

[StreetCowboy]

I would have reacted the exact same way many of the posters here have reacted.

And yet you reacted with aggression and insults to them.

So much for balance. Or "strength and honor"...or self-awareness.

"We claim progress, not perfection."

Anyway, real men can accommodate the shortcomings of their fellows, and prefer to address their own than comment on those of others'.

I expect.

SC

[jayjayjayjay]

"It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate."

- What planet did you say you you were living on?

"Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour..."

- Can I assume that you didn't go to college? Who needs it? Who needs science? Facts?

"Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves."

- How would you know if you did?

It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

- See my second reply.

I presented the idea that men can benefit from self examination. I presented some statistics to support my claim that dysfunctional men are damaging themselves and others. Many of you have demonstrated my point.

thank you

Great responses. Your group really helped your inter-personal relationship skills.

Attack and attempt to discredit anyone who disagrees with you.

Your responses where childish insults designed to deflect the issues. Typical of the clever.

To answer your questions/responses.

1.I am from the planet Earth.

2. I have a BS in Management studies, and your not using science or facts, just assumptions. You cherry-pick "facts" from google, and discard anything that counters.

3. I am my own best friend so I would pretty much know if there was a problem.

4. I saw your 2nd reply. Not sure how my education level pertains to your "manliness" I pretty much said it's OK. For you. Do you insist it must be universal?

No one has even mentioned that self-examination is detrimental. I think everyone does it.

Your 2nd sentence is word sausage. Of course dysfunctional men are damaging... Thats the definition. Good filler though.

Good closing attack, leave with an insult.

You started this thread as a tender man who is coping with himself through life. I countered that your American culture has made you a professional victim.

I can assume that during your feminization they disclosed their arguing techniques to you. You have mastered them.

In the end it's working for you, and thats the important part.

I grew up in a culture that demands that men edit themselves. Its hard to lead from the front when your in tears.

Predators or prey. Whats it going to be?

Eloquent...

[SteeleJoe]

I would have reacted the exact same way many of the posters here have reacted.

And yet you reacted with aggression and insults to them.

So much for balance. Or "strength and honor"...or self-awareness.

"We claim progress, not perfection."

Anyway, real men can accommodate the shortcomings of their fellows, and prefer to address their own than comment on those of others'.

I expect.

SC

Going to bed (I think) so should rush this (cuz I'll forget to post by the next time I'm on and wouldn't that be a tragic loss...)

"We claim progress, not perfection."

Indeed. But that's just it -- I never commented on the OP because while much of it was stuff that wouldn't be to my tastes (or needs?) and I admittedly agree with much of what the critics on the thread said, I don't think there's anything wrong -- or Gay -- in exploring one's inner self and trying to sort stuff out and blah blah blah (in my day we used to call it "being in touch with our feminine side" and I was/am I think); but the one thing that was consistently repugnant to me in all Trisailor's posts --even when he'd occasionally make some real sense -- was his smug bigotry and snide comments implicitly or explicitly expressing how inferior anyone who didn't agree with him was.

Anyway, real men can accommodate the shortcomings of their fellows, and prefer to address their own than comment on those of others'.

Haven't claimed to be "a real man" and am long past doing all the stuff I used to to prove I was one (bar fights, motorcycles, airborne light infantry and other silliness); but I suppose in the unlikely event that I were to use such a term, I suppose my definition would encompass, among toher things, the above. (Though it wouldn't seem to be part of Trisailor's definition).

But I'm here to comment on what pleases me to comment on. Not to demonstrate my real manliness or even try to be as virtuous as I can be or should be (I don't even do that all the time in real life...) and among the things it generally pleases me to comment on are hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty and elitism.

And weak arguments.

[IanForbes]

Congrats to Trisailor for getting all you guys worked up. He should receive some sort of medal for the best troll of the year. :jap:

I mean, how can you NOT make a comment on such a hot topic? Add a few subtle insults, question people's sexuality and sanity, mix in some male vs female stuff and you've got the pot boiling. :jap:

[MAJIC]

Perhaps women live longer because we talk to each other about our emotional problems?

Which is why I think the OP is right in trying to bring men together to talk to each other.

Now where on earth did this silly idea come from that men don't talk to each other?

You talkin' to me? YOU TALKIN' TO ME?? Wanna fight?

Surely if you have read through you have come to the conclusion that the lady thinks she understands men. :lol:

Edited May 22, 2011 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

Perhaps women live longer because we talk to each other about our emotional problems?

Which is why I think the OP is right in trying to bring men together to talk to each other.

Now where on earth did this silly idea come from that men don't talk to each other?

You talkin' to me? YOU TALKIN' TO ME?? Wanna fight?

Surely if you have read through you have come to the conclusion that the lady thinks she understands men. :lol:

Obviously not too well then!

Edited May 22, 2011 by MAJIC

[KRS1]

Thanks again DIG for the book "The Myth of Male Power" and the advice.

I checked out the authors website and read through the chapter descriptions. It occurs to me that it has been a long time since I was interested in reading about this stuff. When our group ended our regular meetings we all had reached a point of "let's stop talking about it and go out and live it" The tools I gained were a huge help in establishing better balance and my crisis was over. I used the tools and my life got better.

Upon reflection I am reminded that people are usually not interested in change unless they are in crisis. I remember the first time I was dragged (kicking and screaming) into a marriage counselor by my wife 30 years ago. I though the whole process was gay and a waste of time. I believed that I was OK just the way I was at the time and resisted changing anything. I would have reacted the exact same way many of the posters here have reacted.

I posted the topic to suggest an explaination for what I see as a lot of dysfunctional men living in Thailand. I probably could have presented it better.

Has it ever occurred to you that the definition of what it is to be a man is defined differently by every individual? or that some really don't care about having to prove that they are a man?

The only thing i have to prove is that i can drink more than my friend so he doent mess with me about it.

Edited May 22, 2011 by KRS1

[trisailer]

"Has it ever occurred to you that the definition of what it is to be a man is defined differently by every individual? or that some really don't care about having to prove that they are a man?"

- Yes it has occurred to me. The collective definition is currently producing too much destruction IMO. If you have another explanation for it please share it. My belief is that what underlies it is men's unwillingness to look at themselves in new and different ways. Men should have more choices than shut up and drink.

"but the one thing that was consistently repugnant to me in all Trisailor's posts --even when he'd occasionally make some real sense -- was his smug bigotry and snide comments implicitly or explicitly expressing how inferior anyone who didn't agree with him was."

- A couple of men responded thoughtfully and contributed to the discussion, most did not. I responded appropriately. You men who attacked me from the safety of your keyboard are cowards. I admit I should have just ignored it. I'm still learning.

"Anyway, real men can accommodate the shortcomings of their fellows, and prefer to address their own than comment on those of others'"

- that would be fine with me if they kept their shortcomings to themselves and were not fouling the world I live in. It is no secret that men behaving badly here in Thailand make us all look bad.

Edited May 23, 2011 by trisailer

[StreetCowboy]

...

"Anyway, real men can accommodate the shortcomings of their fellows, and prefer to address their own than comment on those of others'"

- that would be fine with me if they kept their shortcommings to themselves and were not fouling the world I live in. It is no secret that men bahaving badly here in Thailand make us all look bad.

Speak for yourself - I stand out like a shaft of gold amongst the dross - or like a stream of bat's piss, when I'm steaming....

(based on one of Wilde's courtesy of Monty Python)

Men whom we resemble may tarnish our image; I try to avoid resembling such people. Crisply pressed trousers, a dapper tie and well-shined shoes will stand you in good stead. Think David Niven in preference to Bruce Willis. Not that I am denigrating Bruce WIllis, but merely to set oneself apart from the great unwashed.

A real man takes account of the sensibilities of others, no matter how ridiculous or ill-founded they may be...

SC

[canuckamuck]

"Has it ever occurred to you that the definition of what it is to be a man is defined differently by every individual? or that some really don't care about having to prove that they are a man?"

- Yes it has occurred to me. The collective definition is currently producing too much destruction IMO. If you have another explanation for it please share it. My belief is that what underlies it is men's unwillingness to look at themselves in new and different ways. Men should have more choices than shut up and drink.

"but the one thing that was consistently repugnant to me in all Trisailor's posts --even when he'd occasionally make some real sense -- was his smug bigotry and snide comments implicitly or explicitly expressing how inferior anyone who didn't agree with him was."

- A couple of men responded thoughtfully and contributed to the discussion, most did not. I responded appropriately. You men who attacked me from the safety of your keyboard are cowards. I admit I should have just ignored it. I'm still learning.

"Anyway, real men can accommodate the shortcomings of their fellows, and prefer to address their own than comment on those of others'"

- that would be fine with me if they kept their shortcomings to themselves and were not fouling the world I live in. It is no secret that men behaving badly here in Thailand make us all look bad.

Real men learn how to use the quote function.

[IanForbes]

One of the most interesting groups I worked with was my own maintenance crew in a paper mill. These guys were Harley riding, hard drinking, fist fighting mens men so you can imagine their initial resistance. What I discovered was that the tougher the man the less homophobic they were and the less they cared what anyone thought. It was one of my most gratifying career accomplishments to teach them how to be a part of the management process through quality circles. After a bit of training they would choose one of them to make a presentation to management and they were exceptional at it.

I worked for an American management consultancy back in the 1980's. Some of their programs used video sequences to illustrate key principles. This was around the time quality circles had started to take root in American corporate culture, having traveled over from Japan. I spent almost 6 months in New York's Greenwich village, Anglocizing the American videos, using English actors, because many UK businesses found the content to be irrelevant to English culture. The American approach was seen as too feminine for the culture in the average British machine shop or tech, dept. After the videos were changed, the acceptance level was much higher. And the time taken for the average work group to 'get' the principles of sustained cooperation was greatly lessened. Language, or the application of nuanced semantics, plays an important part in levels of acceptance of corporate, group or individual change.

On a more personal note, I can see your frustration with some of the responses in here. Like the remoulded gambler, alcoholic or serial monogamist, it can be hard to see others not only fail to address similar problems, but refuse even to acknowledge there IS a problem. But as another poster said in this thread, and I'm paraphrasing, we are each on our own journey. Many, perhaps most, will fail to 'get it' in this life. The exercising of personal freedom is both illusory, at least in part, and often at the expense of the freedom of others. To feel so abused by someone in a culture from which we have moved, that we may be prepared to visit the same abuse on a citizen from another culture (perhaps less capable, educated) is to perpetuate the cycle. And any children who may come from such a union will almost certainly exhibit similar traits in their early adult lives. The cycle prevails. Breaking these cycles is extraordinarily difficult. The human animal doesn't like change. Like the daughter of an alcoholic father, who is drawn to marry an alcoholic, and lives in a situation of abuse and fear, failing to see that a door is a door and we have the option to go through it and never return, many continue to live in comfortable discomfort.

Perhaps there's comfort in knowing the responses, although largely negative, have come. It hasn't been ignored. So it isn't irrelevant to the lives of many men who frequent this board. If you've managed corporate change, you'll recognize that the first expression of pain is anger, and more often than not, denial.

For anyone who would like to take a personal foray into the area of understanding masculinity, and managing their own change in a world that constantly demands it, I'd recommend this book ... ... 'The Myth of Male Power', by Warren Farrell. Finch Publishing, ISBN 1 876451 30 0. I wouldn't recommend most start with Robert Bly's 'Iron John' which, IMO, takes too much of a mythopoetic approach, and should perhaps be held back until the reader can gain some appreciation of the reality of the problem of masculinity in today's world.

Having said that, this is a quote from Robert Bly. One I particularly like ...

"A lazy part of us is like a tumbleweed.

It doesn't move on its own. Sometimes it takes

A lot of Depression to get tumbleweeds moving."

Khun mi wan sabai!

:jap:

DIG

Great reply, DIG, clear, understandable and well written. :jap:

At the ripe old age of 71 I've changed my mind 180 degrees from some things I knew for certain when I was in my thirties. Life experiences tend to do that if you take the time to analyze them.