Which International School Selection In Cm ?

[PlanetX]

Always best to deal with a serious accusation by deleting the post

[flakes]

Yes i glad that is cleared up then...

My top 3 of schools to visit in Chiang mai are :

NIS

Lanna

Panyaden

Ofcourse not all post here are fully accurate so to say..And yes i confident that atleast every International school is doing backgrounds checks about their staff because if the wont it can seriously damage good reputations..

flakes

I am responding here on behalf of Lanna International School regarding an accusation within this thread of the school employing a convicted felon (posts now completely removed from the thread by ThaiVisa due to being utter nonsense)

Thighlander, who clearly has a personal grudge against one of our employees, posted that one of our employees, referred to by nationality, was a convicted felon. Although this has now been removed I want to set the record straight for those who have been following this thread. LIST does not employ convicted felons. All of our staff have to go through police checks before they join us. Further, we have been actively involved during the last two years in creating rigorous Child Protection Policies that are being adopted by a number of Chiang Mai international schools. We are also currently piloting a new (additional) series of police checks for UK employees on behalf of the UK's Child Exploitation and Online Protection organisation (http://www.ceop.police.uk/). We take child protection matters very seriously indeed.

Please don't believe everything you read on this forum! I assume Thighlander has been banned from further postings. I certainly hope so. Our member of staff libelled by the comments posted in this forum is currently considering whether legal action is appropriate, as is the school.

[flakes]

Yes and thanks for your help

I will cetainly visit The lanna school in 12 days from now...

Sofar the top 3 of school in CM that i am intrested in are

NIS

Lanna

Panyaden.

Its time for a actual visit...

Hello Flakes:

You were asking a number of questions about Lanna International. I think many of them could be answered if you check the website: http://www.lannaist.ac.th/ I would also encourage you to email the school directly and to talk to the headmaster and/or the primary principal. I think you would be reassured about it not stressing kids etc. Also again, I am only recommending it for you to take a look at as you investigate schools and I am not selling it. Personally while I would think what you read here is very valuable information from a number of perspectives, nothing is better than you yourself going to the schools and seeing for yourself. I would never buy a pig in a poke.

I saw the negative comments from a poster about a staff member there. I think, if you really believe that has any credibility at all, that you flat out ask the school directly and judge for yourself what you think the truth of the matter is.

Dont think I have any more to add to this thread so again good luck and best wishes for you and your family.

[flakes]

Hello iain

We come from a small country in Europe The Netherlands..

My son has lived in The Netherlands with me from his birth till he reached 5 years and now we been living in thailand for 2,5 years. so now is 7,5 years.

In Thailand i kept continue to talk with him in dutch ,therefore he is now tri langual Dutch English Thai...

I dont really need a pure dutch school for him in Thailand ,also i dont think there is such a school.Now if there was a int school in CM where he could get an extra hour of duttch language a week orso that would be great jsut so to get his reading and writting in dutch improved.

flakes, out of interest, what is your native language, and would you want your child to go to a school teaching it?

Iain

[scotbeve]

I think Nakorn Payap International School fits your requirements pretty good.

http://www.nis.ac.th/nis_en/news.php

I'll second this post.

[dunrudin]

I agree that NIS seems a good choice. I would like to see Art, Music, Drama, Athletics, Health and Foreign languages included in the curriculum though.

[lis41]

I agree that NIS seems a good choice. I would like to see Art, Music, Drama, Athletics, Health and Foreign languages included in the curriculum though.

NIS does have all of the above mentioned courses in their curriculum.

[DaamNaam]

Give Panyaden a look.

My three kids love it, and so do we.

[flakes]

Yeah i just read their website again and it gives me a good first impression..

This school concept i assume my son will probably like it the most..

I excited to go visit this school..

Give Panyaden a look.

My three kids love it, and so do we.

[dunrudin]

I agree that NIS seems a good choice. I would like to see Art, Music, Drama, Athletics, Health and Foreign languages included in the curriculum though.

NIS does have all of the above mentioned courses in their curriculum.

Not according to the website.

[flakes]

So why u like to see it included in the curriculum if it is already included ?

somewhat misunderstand this post perhaps

wish i was native in english ..

I agree that NIS seems a good choice. I would like to see Art, Music, Drama, Athletics, Health and Foreign languages included in the curriculum though.

[dunrudin]

So why u like to see it included in the curriculum if it is already included ?

somewhat misunderstand this post perhaps

wish i was native in english ..

I agree that NIS seems a good choice. I would like to see Art, Music, Drama, Athletics, Health and Foreign languages included in the curriculum though.

It lists the subjects and there is a separate section headed,"extracurricular." That means outside of, or not part of the curriculum.

[Diablo Bob]

I agree that NIS seems a good choice. I would like to see Art, Music, Drama, Athletics, Health and Foreign languages included in the curriculum though.

NIS does have all of the above mentioned courses in their curriculum.

Not according to the website.

I have 3 kids at NIS. The oldest 2 have art, music and PE as part of their regular school day. Now if they want to be involved in the orchestra that is a club activity the same as the swim team or track team.

If they wanted to learn Spanish or another foreign language that is probably either an elective subject or after school club, but I am not sure about that.

[dunrudin]

I agree that NIS seems a good choice. I would like to see Art, Music, Drama, Athletics, Health and Foreign languages included in the curriculum though.

NIS does have all of the above mentioned courses in their curriculum.

Not according to the website.

I have 3 kids at NIS. The oldest 2 have art, music and PE as part of their regular school day. Now if they want to be involved in the orchestra that is a club activity the same as the swim team or track team.

If they wanted to learn Spanish or another foreign language that is probably either an elective subject or after school club, but I am not sure about that.

Ah! I think they are confusing, "elective" with "extracurricular." Why do supposedly top schools use big words if they don't understand what they mean. A bit embarrassing for them?

[DaamNaam]

Yeah i just read their website again and it gives me a good first impression..

This school concept i assume my son will probably like it the most..

I excited to go visit this school..

Give Panyaden a look.

My three kids love it, and so do we.

Your kids will love you for it.

[infernalman7]

What about PTIS? No one has even mentioned the school here.. which surprised me a bit as I think that school offers the best international curriculum in Chiang Mai: the IB.

[flakes]

yes i checked that PTIS..looks like an good school..

but that is above my budget for now...

also i noticed that school has an outragerous enrollment fee and all sort of other aditional cost which ofcourse in the end makes that school extreme expensive for me..

i do notice that the program of NIS seems to focus a lot on arts sports and music and i really like that while from the Lannee school i get some other sentiment..

Nis looks together with the panyaden school as my best options..

What about PTIS? No one has even mentioned the school here.. which surprised me a bit as I think that school offers the best international curriculum in Chiang Mai: the IB.

[Mapguy]

Yes, despite reservations already expressed by Flakes, I second a visit to PTIS (formally known as Prem) and add CMIS, as well, despite the current rather contentious discussion about it found on this forum generated by plans to finance a new campus.

Over the years there have been rows within and between schools. Recently,NIS has had quite a controversy going on involving the owners, administration, faculty and parents. Grace got itself into big financial trouble over a property issue. Not aware of any significant problems at PTIS.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Mapguy

[infernalman7]

PTIS is currently suffering from identity crisis. It doesn't know whether to call itself "Prem Tinsulanonda International School" or "PTIS International School". The reason behind this was the recent problem with another Thai school in Khon Khen with the same name had a bomb threat.

You should try to visit PTIS first. Enrollment free perhaps may be waived .. I think you can negotiate always with these schools.

[scotbeve]

PTIS is currently suffering from identity crisis. It doesn't know whether to call itself "Prem Tinsulanonda International School" or "PTIS International School". The reason behind this was the recent problem with another Thai school in Khon Khen with the same name had a bomb threat.

You should try to visit PTIS first. Enrollment free perhaps may be waived .. I think you can negotiate always with these schools.

Inf,

There are some other reasons as well....

[flakes]

I just looked at the website of CMIS and i think it loooks really weak...

It not give you any clue about that school,besides that is an christian school ,but for an international school i would expect an better website then what they have come up sofar..

I did request some information from them if they reply i might visit that school too.

Prem school as i recall their price was even way more then the 180.000 that the NIS is charging

[Diablo Bob]

I just looked at the website of CMIS and i think it loooks really weak...

It not give you any clue about that school,besides that is an christian school ,but for an international school i would expect an better website then what they have come up sofar..

I did request some information from them if they reply i might visit that school too.

Prem school as i recall their price was even way more then the 180.000 that the NIS is charging

I don't know when you plan to visit any schools, but I would suggest that you do it before June 2 or 3. Even though the school might be open, many of your childs potential teachers will be leaving for the summer break I would think that you would want to meet the teachers, see their classrooms and not just see the architecture and talk with somebody who isn't a teacher.

[flakes]

Next week friday i wil be for 5 days in Chiang mai...

That first day will visit some schools there too..

I just looked at the website of CMIS and i think it loooks really weak...

It not give you any clue about that school,besides that is an christian school ,but for an international school i would expect an better website then what they have come up sofar..

I did request some information from them if they reply i might visit that school too.

Prem school as i recall their price was even way more then the 180.000 that the NIS is charging

I don't know when you plan to visit any schools, but I would suggest that you do it before June 2 or 3. Even though the school might be open, many of your childs potential teachers will be leaving for the summer break I would think that you would want to meet the teachers, see their classrooms and not just see the architecture and talk with somebody who isn't a teacher.

[infernalman7]

OK, as a kid who graduated from one of these schools and had loads of friends coming out from various different international schools in Chiang Mai, I am going to rank these school based on the quality of colleges their graduates go to:

(1) Prem: IB Curriculum - Duke, LSE, Imperial, Melbourne Uni, Sciences Po, UCLA, McGill, UBC, Columbia

(2) CMIS: American Curriculum - Loads of American uni ... their Thai graduates end up mostly either at international sections of Chula, Thammasat or CMU.

(3) NIS: American Curriculum

(4) Lanna: A-Level

(5) APIS: This school was well-known amongst kids that it has the least strict rules regarding smoking and doing drugs ... their Thai graduates often end up in the international section of Thai universities.

(-) Grace: American Curriculum - but I don't want to compare Grace to other schools as most (>60%) graduates tend to go to Christian or church affiliated colleges later. Kids here do well at sports though (probably the only plus for being so godly).

(-) Varee: This school isn't really an international school. First, they are not part of the CMAC. Secondly, they are not approved by any governing body of any international school associations. Thirdly, everything is more like a test run. It's a Thai school (with a pretty bad reputation for accepting kids that fail to continue their education at Montfort College or Princes Royal) that is trying very hard to be international as a compensation.

Edited May 27, 2011 by infernalman7

[chaoyang]

OK, as a kid who graduated from one of these schools and had loads of friends coming out from various different international schools in Chiang Mai, I am going to rank these school based on the quality of colleges their graduates go to:

(1) Prem: IB Curriculum - Duke, LSE, Imperial, Melbourne Uni, Sciences Po, UCLA, McGill, UBC, Columbia

(2) CMIS: American Curriculum - Loads of American uni ... their Thai graduates end up mostly either at international sections of Chula, Thammasat or CMU.

(3) NIS: American Curriculum

(4) Lanna: A-Level

(5) APIS: This school was well-known amongst kids that it has the least strict rules regarding smoking and doing drugs ... their Thai graduates often end up in the international section of Thai universities.

(-) Grace: American Curriculum - but I don't want to compare Grace to other schools as most (>60%) graduates tend to go to Christian or church affiliated colleges later. Kids here do well at sports though (probably the only plus for being so godly).

(-) Varee: This school isn't really an international school. First, they are not part of the CMAC. Secondly, they are not approved by any governing body of any international school associations. Thirdly, everything is more like a test run. It's a Thai school (with a pretty bad reputation for accepting kids that fail to continue their education at Montfort College or Princes Royal) that is trying very hard to be international as a compensation.

Wherever you went, they (and you) did a good job. You write and spell better than most on this forum. I spent more than a decade working at an international school in Chiang Mai and I generally agree with your rankings.

Though the jury might be out on whether Prem lives up to its own billing, even "prestige" that is self generated can help with college placement, and their students have gone on to some good universities.

Your list is about a close as one is going to get at an insider's view of the plain truth, IMHO.

[HenMeeMai]

I just looked at the website of CMIS and i think it loooks really weak...

I actually quite like the CMIS website. What don't you like about it?

Just having a scan through the international school's websites I noticed that LIST now has a new website up. I don't know how long it has been there, and I do know that a good website does not necessarily a good school make, but it looks quite good to me and, more importantly, has content!

[Mapguy]

It is fair, IMHO, to say most graduates of international schools (of which Varee is not one, as noted above) who enroll in Thai universities enter the international programs of those universities. The competitive entrance exam process for admission into Thai universities is the challenge. They are not "taught to the test" as is done in top Thai schools. Some have noted an egregious example of this is the stress on exam preparation at the "Demonstration School" of Chiang Mai University, popular with CMU faculty. Those who enroll in the English-language programs of Thai schools encounter the same difficulty. All that is not to say that the undergraduate international program of a school like Chulalongkom University is a bad program. In fact, in many ways, it could be seen as better, just as the teaching-learning done in some international schools is very different and arguably more effective than the model followed in Thai (as well as Asian) schools generally. But that's another discussion for another day.

But, maybe, looking broadly at the motives and interests of posters on CM ThaiVisa over the years, I see less interest in Thai schools than in international schools. Pretty obvious since this is an overwhelmingly (Name more than ten Thai posters!) farang group. Next comes interest in schools with English programs (like Varee) with the general concern about cost. Some seem to be taken in by the glitz (aka swimming pool and friendliness) factors. Many just seem to be worried about the cost of schooling, which is certainly a valid concern.

Looking briefly at the cost of schooling there are three broad categories of school budgets that might be considered: operational costs, capital development costs, and profit.

If you look at operational costs, the really big nut is staff costs. Generally, I think it fair to say that 75-85% of operational costs are spent almost everywhere in decent schools on staff salaries and benefits. In this sense, if other factors are held even, a parent gets what he or she pays for. Salary levels vary significantly in Chiang Mai. I'll bet you a penny to a pound that the salaries and benefits that the faculty receive at PTIS are much higher than those of other international schools. Varee wouldn't even be in the picture. What does that get you? As should be obvious, the more you pay the better credentialed, better educated and more experienced the teachers will be. (I don't pay much attention to the argument that good credentials don't necessarily correlate with good teaching, meaning that someone who is poorly-credentialed might be much better. Sure, there are good, so-so and bad teachers, but let's just say I'd rather start looking for the best by, metaphorically, seeking certified mechanics rather than garage-trained mechanics to work on my airplane, thank you!

Capital development and the impact on overall expense of a school is a much trickier factor to generalize about because of the specific circumstances of each school. Is it a new school? Does it want to expand? Et cetera. Look at a few local examples of capital development costs.

A very modest plant (like Lanna) doesn't appear to have large capital costs. I presume that the school has recovered from the initial costs of its founding (an interesting story in itself). It might already, however, feel pressured to expand or improve facilities significantly if it becomes increasingly popular, nervousness about the local international school competition.

The problem of limited facilities has been wrestled with at CMIS (Chiang Mai International School) for some years. It has, in part, tried to deal with the problem with the help of its step-brother institution, Prince Royal's College. Now, with Payap and Prince Royal's College, a "win-win-win" deal has been developed. It isn't cheap or easy.

From its beginning some ten years ago, PTIS (formerly Prem) was a vision of its founder who saw a chance to make an educational dream come true financed by profit generated in part through auxiliary educational programs and surrounding real estate profits. An awesome physical plant was built, now a little worn at the edges. The auxiliary programs have not altogether worked out, but the mortgage has been paid.

APIS cost a lot to build. It is wearing around the edges but isn't being overtaken yet by the surrounding forest. NIS has spent some fairly big money recently on its early-years facilities.

Varee, again not an international school, has recently made an awesome capital investment in expansion. I'd ask who holds the paper and when they want to be paid.

That leaves the profit from the school for the owner as the last significant factor. Proprietary schools are a business more or less regulated by government and monitored by various accrediting agencies. Whether owned by an individual, a corporation or by an institution like a church, they are a business. Some are not-for-profit, might be carried by the parent institution as a loss on the institutional balance sheet, expected to break even, or maybe even be carried as a loss as a necessary or desirable service (e.g., a place to educate missionary's children). CMIS would be one of those. Most Chiang Mai international schools, however, must certainly hold their own and hopefully earn a profit for their owners. Not casting aspersions upon any individual owners locally, but it is of course a relevant concern to parents concerned with the quality of the education as well as their own personal budgets. If you happen to be a parent of a child in such a school, you really don't have a say, do you, so long as the educational laws are met, except to move on to another school? You are free to do so.

There is, of course, more to all this. Just one finishing note: What happens at home, the educational and socio-economic level of the parents is much more important in impacting a child than a school can hope to be.

[Diablo Bob]

It is fair, IMHO, to say most graduates of international schools (of which Varee is not one, as noted above) who enroll in Thai universities enter the international programs of those universities. The competitive entrance exam process for admission into Thai universities is the challenge. They are not "taught to the test" as is done in top Thai schools. Some have noted an egregious example of this is the stress on exam preparation at the "Demonstration School" of Chiang Mai University, popular with CMU faculty. Those who enroll in the English-language programs of Thai schools encounter the same difficulty. All that is not to say that the undergraduate international program of a school like Chulalongkom University is a bad program. In fact, in many ways, it could be seen as better, just as the teaching-learning done in some international schools is very different and arguably more effective than the model followed in Thai (as well as Asian) schools generally. But that's another discussion for another day.

But, maybe, looking broadly at the motives and interests of posters on CM ThaiVisa over the years, I see less interest in Thai schools than in international schools. Pretty obvious since this is an overwhelmingly (Name more than ten Thai posters!) farang group. Next comes interest in schools with English programs (like Varee) with the general concern about cost. Some seem to be taken in by the glitz (aka swimming pool and friendliness) factors. Many just seem to be worried about the cost of schooling, which is certainly a valid concern.

Looking briefly at the cost of schooling there are three broad categories of school budgets that might be considered: operational costs, capital development costs, and profit.

If you look at operational costs, the really big nut is staff costs. Generally, I think it fair to say that 75-85% of operational costs are spent almost everywhere in decent schools on staff salaries and benefits. In this sense, if other factors are held even, a parent gets what he or she pays for. Salary levels vary significantly in Chiang Mai. I'll bet you a penny to a pound that the salaries and benefits that the faculty receive at PTIS are much higher than those of other international schools. Varee wouldn't even be in the picture. What does that get you? As should be obvious, the more you pay the better credentialed, better educated and more experienced the teachers will be. (I don't pay much attention to the argument that good credentials don't necessarily correlate with good teaching, meaning that someone who is poorly-credentialed might be much better. Sure, there are good, so-so and bad teachers, but let's just say I'd rather start looking for the best by, metaphorically, seeking certified mechanics rather than garage-trained mechanics to work on my airplane, thank you!

Capital development and the impact on overall expense of a school is a much trickier factor to generalize about because of the specific circumstances of each school. Is it a new school? Does it want to expand? Et cetera. Look at a few local examples of capital development costs.

A very modest plant (like Lanna) doesn't appear to have large capital costs. I presume that the school has recovered from the initial costs of its founding (an interesting story in itself). It might already, however, feel pressured to expand or improve facilities significantly if it becomes increasingly popular, nervousness about the local international school competition.

The problem of limited facilities has been wrestled with at CMIS (Chiang Mai International School) for some years. It has, in part, tried to deal with the problem with the help of its step-brother institution, Prince Royal's College. Now, with Payap and Prince Royal's College, a "win-win-win" deal has been developed. It isn't cheap or easy.

From its beginning some ten years ago, PTIS (formerly Prem) was a vision of its founder who saw a chance to make an educational dream come true financed by profit generated in part through auxiliary educational programs and surrounding real estate profits. An awesome physical plant was built, now a little worn at the edges. The auxiliary programs have not altogether worked out, but the mortgage has been paid.

APIS cost a lot to build. It is wearing around the edges but isn't being overtaken yet by the surrounding forest. NIS has spent some fairly big money recently on its early-years facilities.

Varee, again not an international school, has recently made an awesome capital investment in expansion. I'd ask who holds the paper and when they want to be paid.

That leaves the profit from the school for the owner as the last significant factor. Proprietary schools are a business more or less regulated by government and monitored by various accrediting agencies. Whether owned by an individual, a corporation or by an institution like a church, they are a business. Some are not-for-profit, might be carried by the parent institution as a loss on the institutional balance sheet, expected to break even, or maybe even be carried as a loss as a necessary or desirable service (e.g., a place to educate missionary's children). CMIS would be one of those. Most Chiang Mai international schools, however, must certainly hold their own and hopefully earn a profit for their owners. Not casting aspersions upon any individual owners locally, but it is of course a relevant concern to parents concerned with the quality of the education as well as their own personal budgets. If you happen to be a parent of a child in such a school, you really don't have a say, do you, so long as the educational laws are met, except to move on to another school? You are free to do so.

There is, of course, more to all this. Just one finishing note: What happens at home, the educational and socio-economic level of the parents is much more important in impacting a child than a school can hope to be.

Great synopsis, thank you Mapguy. Agree with everything you have written. Can you enlighten me about the entrance examination into the International programs...... does an International School graduate have an easier time or more difficult time? The way I read your synopsis you say that since the IS graduates are not rote schooled and schooled for this examination it is more difficult.

[scotbeve]

Mapguy,

Once again, a thorough point of view..... I'm sure that many of us (old hands and new) appreciated your comment.

A quick overview of my family and experience of intl schools in CM: I've lived in Thailand for 30 yrs., married for 23 yrs., 2 children - daughter is in uni and son still in NIS. Daughter attended APIS (boarding) for 1 yr. and then NIS for 3 years, then a Junior College in Sydney. My son has been in NIS since Gr. 3 and attends various summer courses abroad for a week or 3 annually. NIS has, in the past, done a pretty good job scholastically and my kids are actually interested in the learning process. My wife and myself do all that is possible to encourage and nurture this interest.

I has come to my attention - as of yesterday - that NIS is once again in a crisis situation. There was a parents committee meeting a few days ago that, unfortunately, I did not know about and therefore did not attend. My son informed me that there are no less than 6 high school (secondary) teachers who will not be returning for the 2011-12 year. And the student population will decrease up to (and including) 30%. IMHO, this is a crisis. This may be a lateral or parallel topic from the OP. Or moderators? Please advise.

[folium]

Mapguy,

Once again, a thorough point of view..... I'm sure that many of us (old hands and new) appreciated your comment.

A quick overview of my family and experience of intl schools in CM: I've lived in Thailand for 30 yrs., married for 23 yrs., 2 children - daughter is in uni and son still in NIS. Daughter attended APIS (boarding) for 1 yr. and then NIS for 3 years, then a Junior College in Sydney. My son has been in NIS since Gr. 3 and attends various summer courses abroad for a week or 3 annually. NIS has, in the past, done a pretty good job scholastically and my kids are actually interested in the learning process. My wife and myself do all that is possible to encourage and nurture this interest.

I has come to my attention - as of yesterday - that NIS is once again in a crisis situation. There was a parents committee meeting a few days ago that, unfortunately, I did not know about and therefore did not attend. My son informed me that there are no less than 6 high school (secondary) teachers who will not be returning for the 2011-12 year. And the student population will decrease up to (and including) 30%. IMHO, this is a crisis. This may be a lateral or parallel topic from the OP. Or moderators? Please advise.

From conversations with teachers at intl schools in CM there seems to be 4 main elements to staff turnover here:

1. The 2 year contract cycle tends to produce a quiet year/busy year pattern for teachers moving

2. The level of pay in CM intl schools is on average about half that of Bangkok and a third that of schools in the Gulf. Thus younger teachers and non teaching couples tend to move on.

3. Single female teachers tend not to stay long term.

4. IF a school is in genuine disarray and teachers are being messed about that can cause an exodus. Again from second hand info it seems that the drama between principal and family has been resolved with a new principal appointed and the school back on an even keel.

Also how many teachers does NIS have? Six may only be a small proportion and nothing out of the normal/part of normal cycle etc.

Re the 30% student departures again I understand NIS has a large proportion of Korean students and they tend to be more mobile and get repatriated back home at fairly short notice. Most of the Intl Schools have seen fairly large drop offs in Korean and Japanese students in the last couple of years.

So a little bit of second hand knowledge and guesswork. If you are concerned speak to someone who went to the meeting. Surely they publish minutes and distribute them to parents?