International Court Of Justice (ICJ) To Speak On Preah Vihear Case This Month

[webfact]

ICJ to speak on Preah Vihear case this month

By The Nation

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) will voice observations on the Preah Vihear case on May 30 and 31 in relation to Cambodia's request for provisional measures in the disputed border area, the court said on Thursday.

The case is related to Cambodia's move to seek an interpretation of the 1962 ruling on the ancient temple.

The scheduled observation will focus on the measures sought by Cambodia, including the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of Thai troops from the disputed area adjacent to the temple.

The court has allocated two hours per day to each side for providing testimonies.

The Thai legal team will fly to The Hague next week after Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has finalised briefings with them on Monday, a government official said.

The hearing is open to media representatives and individuals subject to accreditation procedures, the court said.

Cambodia has filed a petition with the World Court asking it to interpret the Court's 1962 ruling on the temple. The petition, Cambodia claims, was prompted by Thailand's repeated armed aggression to exert its claim on Cambodian territory.

The historic Preah Vihear temple has been a point of contention between the two countries, as the boundary through the grounds surrounding the temple is not demarcated. The occasional military clashes at this border have claimed numerous lives.

-- The Nation 2011-05-21

[IanPrince99]

Time for Thailand to get back what is theirs.

[geovalin]

Time for Thailand to back home and stop harass its neighbors.

[vont]

Time for Thailand to back home and stop harass its neighbors.

Just a jest ok, geovalin....

GO HOME TO HELP YOUR FRIENDS AND CAMBS....

The ruling of the court in 1962 has been clear and unequivocal that the temple has been ruled, under protestation in writing from Thai Govt, that they would one day appeal that decision.

The court refrained from ruling in favor of camb to include land immediately surrounding the temple. That was unequivocal then to all parties involved in the dispute.

How is it that in 2010, some 49 years later, the shameless HuSane desires to appeal again trying to also ENTICE several members of the court to reconsider the prior decision as unclear and nonspecific?

The former cambodian PM and his representatives grinned and smiled broadly as they walked off the court with their winning decision. They then never wanted the surrounding soil.

But the shameless and probably brainless also, HuSane wants more than that nowadays.

Only an equivalent moronic members of the court influenced and backed by their own PRE-COMMISSIONED....

and camb favored countries interested and vested in gas and oil corporations.... would vote in favor of the camb again in 2011....

You ought to go home long time ago.... perhaps with the Frenchie withdrawal from Far Eastern Empire.... then....

Get up earlier than you normally would....

and open your eyes and ears....

to see and hear the cannon balls from the camb....

see the camb writing on the sign posts replacing Thai sign posts which were impregnated by the Thai to forbid camb to enter the temple

thru Thai side of the temple.... when camb won its case to the temple....

Those were Thai posts forbidding any camb from entering Thai soil to walk up the steps which are on Thai soil....

any camb stepping on Thai soil to walk that step would be shot....

The camb president obeyed those signs for decades.... 'cause those soil around the temple as the camb knew then that it belongs to Thailand

as the former camb president acknowledged that since the decision....

Until recently that the Crook--HuSane tries to claim what belongs to Thailand....

Had he or his family done this in those early year, PM SaRid and his army would have blown the family members out of existence then....

It is unfortunate that currently Thai govt are so sissy, weak, irresponsible and totally childish and inexperienced....

to have led Thailand to such a predicament....

I said all the above because I was in Thailand.... around 1940.... and heard and seen the unfolding of Thailand history....

Just ask any old soldiers, either Camb or Thai, they would say the same thing.... that grounds surrounding the temple belongs to Thailand, unequivocally....

When could we throw you a farewell party and see you off at Suvana....? LOL

Now.... do not get indigestion over this, alright?

Just pickup your one way tix and just let's all know whence....

Honestly now.... neither you nor I would have anything to gain whatever from this insane dispute.... CHEERS MATE.....

Edited May 21, 2011 by vont

[orang37]

Time for Thailand to get back what is theirs.

Time for both Thailand and Cambodia to return an ancient Khmer temple to Lord Siva: to whom ?

In considering the use of Preah Vihar as "political football" for contemporary geo-political shenanigans between, and within, two nations, it is hard not to think of that aspect of the triune Hindu/Vedic godhead, Lord Siva, known as Nataraj, Lord of the Dance. His dance, in its Rudra Tandava (aka Mahakala,etc.) aspect is the destruction of worlds. During the Tandava, Siva can go into a kind of intoxicated rage which can only be brought under control by "Lasya:" and that's where his female divine consort/shakti, Parvati, comes in: she's the one whose graceful dance, of Lasya, will ratchet down Siva's berserk rage.

Where's Parvati ?

~o:37;

[sirchai]

Time for Thailand to get back what is theirs.

The Thai legal team will fly to The Hague next week after Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has finalised briefings with them on Monday, a government official said.

I hope they don't get lost in dutch coffee shops with the green leaves outside...................:jap:.

[meelousee]

Preah Vihear was in Thailand 800 years ago, and it stayed that way until the French started monkeying around with the maps.

Case Point: "Battambang Province

Team two received orders to conduct the survey in villages neighbouring the Thai-Cambodian border located in Phnom Preak district in November 2001. After they had completed the survey, their data was sent to Phnom Penh to be entered in the database. As part of the data entry process the location of all points with coordinates is plotted on maps and checked for accuracy. While checking the village point of one of the villages in Phnom Preak District it was noticed that according to the map it was on the wrong side of the Thai border. As a result of this, the Database Unit returned the survey data back to Team Two for checking. The team leader returned to this district to verify the error, but after the team leader had checked the map he realised that the village point was correct, but the map was hopelessly incorrect with no connection to reality."

These maps were made and published in the 1960s.

[creck]

How anyone can suggest that the temple and surrounding land is in Cambodia I do not understand – just go and look. (well just now it’s too dangerous). The French intention was that the escarpment defined the border. Any rational person would agree.

How anyone can suggest that the temple is in Cambodia and the surrounding land is not – is beyond my imagination. The ICJ was clearly wrong in its majority decision. They agreed that the contemporary map was in error, but did not then draw sensible conclusions. The treaty is clear.

[jybkk]

One of the funniest thing in this story is that, according to all maps of the "disputed area" I've seen, there is an area that neither Thailand nor Cambodia claims as theirs.

See, here, on the right?

How anyone can suggest that the temple is in Cambodia and the surrounding land is not – is beyond my imagination. The ICJ was clearly wrong in its majority decision.

As far as I understand. ICJ was asked the question "Is the temple on Cambodian side?". Their answer was "yes" considering that according to the map drawn by the French and agreed on by Thailand was placing the temple in Cambodian side indeed. They were not asked about surrounding area and therefore did not mention anything about it, but if you follow their reasoning, then this area would still be in Cambodia too.

The whole dispute boils down to a simple point. The border was supposed to follow the watershed line (which is geographically logical) but the French decided not to follow this rule in this particular area. This is tricky but they did not hide anything as they provided the accurate map with this border to Thailand who agreed on it.

So from a Geographical point of view, it makes sense that the area is on Thai side.... but from a legal point of view, it is in Cambodia, as all involved parties agreed on that at the beginning.

[bobbin]

Preah Vihear was in Thailand 800 years ago

Don't think there was a Thai Empire 800 years ago. Scattered city-states in vassalage to the Khmer Empire, which built the temples, would be more correct

[whybother]

Preah Vihear was in Thailand 800 years ago

Don't think there was a Thai Empire 800 years ago. Scattered city-states in vassalage to the Khmer Empire, which built the temples, would be more correct

Preah Vihear was controlled by Thais (or their ancestors - from Sukothai I think) from about 1350 after the collapse of the Khmer Empire.

[sirchai]

Preah Vihear was in Thailand 800 years ago

Don't think there was a Thai Empire 800 years ago. Scattered city-states in vassalage to the Khmer Empire, which built the temples, would be more correct

The Lawa or Lua as the northern Thai call them, are found only in Thailand. The history of the Lawa people is long and poorly understood. It is certain that they have inhabited Thailand 800 years ago and they were certainly in Thailand already when the Thais arrived. They believe that they migrated from Cambodia, but some archaeologists think their origins lie in Micronesia, perhaps 2,000 years ago.

Please see link: http://www.sawadee.com/thailand/hilltribes/lawa/index.htm

[FrankieDimes]

Time for Thailand to back home and stop harass its neighbors.

Just a jest ok, geovalin....

GO HOME TO HELP YOUR FRIENDS AND CAMBS....

The ruling of the court in 1962 has been clear and unequivocal that the temple has been ruled, under protestation in writing from Thai Govt, that they would one day appeal that decision.

The court refrained from ruling in favor of camb to include land immediately surrounding the temple. That was unequivocal then to all parties involved in the dispute.

How is it that in 2010, some 49 years later, the shameless HuSane desires to appeal again trying to also ENTICE several members of the court to reconsider the prior decision as unclear and nonspecific?

The former cambodian PM and his representatives grinned and smiled broadly as they walked off the court with their winning decision. They then never wanted the surrounding soil.

But the shameless and probably brainless also, HuSane wants more than that nowadays.

Only an equivalent moronic members of the court influenced and backed by their own PRE-COMMISSIONED....

and camb favored countries interested and vested in gas and oil corporations.... would vote in favor of the camb again in 2011....

You ought to go home long time ago.... perhaps with the Frenchie withdrawal from Far Eastern Empire.... then....

Get up earlier than you normally would....

and open your eyes and ears....

to see and hear the cannon balls from the camb....

see the camb writing on the sign posts replacing Thai sign posts which were impregnated by the Thai to forbid camb to enter the temple

thru Thai side of the temple.... when camb won its case to the temple....

Those were Thai posts forbidding any camb from entering Thai soil to walk up the steps which are on Thai soil....

any camb stepping on Thai soil to walk that step would be shot....

The camb president obeyed those signs for decades.... 'cause those soil around the temple as the camb knew then that it belongs to Thailand

as the former camb president acknowledged that since the decision....

Until recently that the Crook--HuSane tries to claim what belongs to Thailand....

Had he or his family done this in those early year, PM SaRid and his army would have blown the family members out of existence then....

It is unfortunate that currently Thai govt are so sissy, weak, irresponsible and totally childish and inexperienced....

to have led Thailand to such a predicament....

I said all the above because I was in Thailand.... around 1940.... and heard and seen the unfolding of Thailand history....

Just ask any old soldiers, either Camb or Thai, they would say the same thing.... that grounds surrounding the temple belongs to Thailand, unequivocally....

When could we throw you a farewell party and see you off at Suvana....? LOL

Now.... do not get indigestion over this, alright?

Just pickup your one way tix and just let's all know whence....

Honestly now.... neither you nor I would have anything to gain whatever from this insane dispute.... CHEERS MATE.....

If it was up to me, I would nuke the whole site. Where do you get off telling someone to go home because they don't agree with you or your government. There are many Thia people dispursed throughout the globe, should they have to return to Thailand because they voice an opinion that may be in opposition with the host nation or one of its citizens?

[Xangsamhua]

Preah Vihear was in Thailand 800 years ago

Don't think there was a Thai Empire 800 years ago. Scattered city-states in vassalage to the Khmer Empire, which built the temples, would be more correct

Preah Vihear was controlled by Thais (or their ancestors - from Sukothai I think) from about 1350 after the collapse of the Khmer Empire.

All those areas along the Mekong up until the 19th century were peripheral states paying tribute directly or indirectly to both Siam and Cambodia as required to keep Bangkok and Phnom Penh out of their hair. There were no defined borders. These emerged with the 1880s rush to map and therefore lay claim to territories and expand their national interests, a colonial activity engaged in by Siam as enthusiastically as the French. Unfortunately for Siam, she didn't have the clout to impose her will as much as the French did.

Having said all that, I understand the current dispute is about land accessing the temple and has come about not so much from historical dispute as Thai negligence in agreeing (in 1962?) to something they now regret.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[vont]

Time for Thailand to back home and stop harass its neighbors.

Just a jest ok, geovalin....

GO HOME TO HELP YOUR FRIENDS AND CAMBS....

The ruling of the court in 1962 has been clear and unequivocal that the temple has been ruled, under protestation in writing from Thai Govt, that they would one day appeal that decision.

The court refrained from ruling in favor of camb to include land immediately surrounding the temple. That was unequivocal then to all parties involved in the dispute.

How is it that in 2010, some 49 years later, the shameless HuSane desires to appeal again trying to also ENTICE several members of the court to reconsider the prior decision as unclear and nonspecific?

The former cambodian PM and his representatives grinned and smiled broadly as they walked off the court with their winning decision. They then never wanted the surrounding soil.

But the shameless and probably brainless also, HuSane wants more than that nowadays.

Only an equivalent moronic members of the court influenced and backed by their own PRE-COMMISSIONED....

and camb favored countries interested and vested in gas and oil corporations.... would vote in favor of the camb again in 2011....

You ought to go home long time ago.... perhaps with the Frenchie withdrawal from Far Eastern Empire.... then....

Get up earlier than you normally would....

and open your eyes and ears....

to see and hear the cannon balls from the camb....

see the camb writing on the sign posts replacing Thai sign posts which were impregnated by the Thai to forbid camb to enter the temple

thru Thai side of the temple.... when camb won its case to the temple....

Those were Thai posts forbidding any camb from entering Thai soil to walk up the steps which are on Thai soil....

any camb stepping on Thai soil to walk that step would be shot....

The camb president obeyed those signs for decades.... 'cause those soil around the temple as the camb knew then that it belongs to Thailand

as the former camb president acknowledged that since the decision....

Until recently that the Crook--HuSane tries to claim what belongs to Thailand....

Had he or his family done this in those early year, PM SaRid and his army would have blown the family members out of existence then....

It is unfortunate that currently Thai govt are so sissy, weak, irresponsible and totally childish and inexperienced....

to have led Thailand to such a predicament....

I said all the above because I was in Thailand.... around 1940.... and heard and seen the unfolding of Thailand history....

Just ask any old soldiers, either Camb or Thai, they would say the same thing.... that grounds surrounding the temple belongs to Thailand, unequivocally....

When could we throw you a farewell party and see you off at Suvana....? LOL

Now.... do not get indigestion over this, alright?

Just pickup your one way tix and just let's all know whence....

Honestly now.... neither you nor I would have anything to gain whatever from this insane dispute.... CHEERS MATE.....

If it was up to me, I would nuke the whole site. Where do you get off telling someone to go home because they don't agree with you or your government. There are many Thia people dispursed throughout the globe, should they have to return to Thailand because they voice an opinion that may be in opposition with the host nation or one of its citizens?

GeeWeez....

Did you not pay attention to the very first line....

Just a jest ok, geovalin....

GO HOME TO HELP YOUR FRIENDS AND CAMBS....

Perhaps you ought to know also that we are all here in Thailand as guests, you and I are included.

Thai people around the world are welcome to return to Thailand if and whey they no longer find it conducive to lheir life styles to remain in where they are.

Likewise, if any farang finds it unbearable to remain in Thailand, no one is holding them back either.

It is an individual choice. Voice all your discerning opinions as much and as often as you like.... in an open like in Thaivisa....

Some members will take a shot at your discerning opinions.... but that is to be expected in an open forum such as this.

Carry on..... and be happy in Thailand....

Many farangs are happy enough here to call it a second home sweet home.... hope you'll be joining this rank soon, only if you wish.... LOL

Now don't bend out of shape alright? Maybe it is not your cup of tea.... that is alright too. :jap:

[creck]

One of the funniest thing in this story is that, according to all maps of the "disputed area" I've seen, there is an area that neither Thailand nor Cambodia claims as theirs.

See, here, on the right?

How anyone can suggest that the temple is in Cambodia and the surrounding land is not – is beyond my imagination. The ICJ was clearly wrong in its majority decision.

As far as I understand. ICJ was asked the question "Is the temple on Cambodian side?". Their answer was "yes" considering that according to the map drawn by the French and agreed on by Thailand was placing the temple in Cambodian side indeed. They were not asked about surrounding area and therefore did not mention anything about it, but if you follow their reasoning, then this area would still be in Cambodia too.

The whole dispute boils down to a simple point. The border was supposed to follow the watershed line (which is geographically logical) but the French decided not to follow this rule in this particular area. This is tricky but they did not hide anything as they provided the accurate map with this border to Thailand who agreed on it.

So from a Geographical point of view, it makes sense that the area is on Thai side.... but from a legal point of view, it is in Cambodia, as all involved parties agreed on that at the beginning.

Unfortunately, You are right about what the ICJ was asked and therefore what it pronounced on – just the temple. My guess is that the current Clarification will say that Thailand should quit the area.

However, the map is being given too much status. What ‘everybody agreed on’ was the treaty, not the map. The map came later. But Siam did not comment on it. It had not the technical expertise or survey information. More important Siam was scared, they would not challenge France! The map anyway was probably not considered important; the treaty held sway and the map was (left without valid examination) expected to be in line with the treaty.

The ICJ minority opinion gets it right IMHO – the court should not have applied modern legal thinking to international relations at that time. The ICJ’s decision was based on the principle if you don’t object you agree by default. But even that is questionable, since it assumes that the map had the power to overrule the treaty. That was not intended by the French and anyway, it was agreed by the court to be a muddle of a plot and inaccurate.

The watershed line as defined in the treaty clearly puts the Temple in Thailand. I don’t know how one appeals the ICJ, if you can, that is what Thailand should have done in 1962.

[sjjmmi]

give it back to malaysia

[vont]

One of the funniest thing in this story is that, according to all maps of the "disputed area" I've seen, there is an area that neither Thailand nor Cambodia claims as theirs.

See, here, on the right?

How anyone can suggest that the temple is in Cambodia and the surrounding land is not – is beyond my imagination. The ICJ was clearly wrong in its majority decision.

As far as I understand. ICJ was asked the question "Is the temple on Cambodian side?". Their answer was "yes" considering that according to the map drawn by the French and agreed on by Thailand was placing the temple in Cambodian side indeed. They were not asked about surrounding area and therefore did not mention anything about it, but if you follow their reasoning, then this area would still be in Cambodia too.

The whole dispute boils down to a simple point. The border was supposed to follow the watershed line (which is geographically logical) but the French decided not to follow this rule in this particular area. This is tricky but they did not hide anything as they provided the accurate map with this border to Thailand who agreed on it.

So from a Geographical point of view, it makes sense that the area is on Thai side.... but from a legal point of view, it is in Cambodia, as all involved parties agreed on that at the beginning.

Unfortunately, You are right about what the ICJ was asked and therefore what it pronounced on – just the temple. My guess is that the current Clarification will say that Thailand should quit the area.

However, the map is being given too much status. What 'everybody agreed on' was the treaty, not the map. The map came later. But Siam did not comment on it. It had not the technical expertise or survey information. More important Siam was scared, they would not challenge France! The map anyway was probably not considered important; the treaty held sway and the map was (left without valid examination) expected to be in line with the treaty.

The ICJ minority opinion gets it right IMHO – the court should not have applied modern legal thinking to international relations at that time. The ICJ's decision was based on the principle if you don't object you agree by default. But even that is questionable, since it assumes that the map had the power to overrule the treaty. That was not intended by the French and anyway, it was agreed by the court to be a muddle of a plot and inaccurate.

The watershed line as defined in the treaty clearly puts the Temple in Thailand. I don't know how one appeals the ICJ, if you can, that is what Thailand should have done in 1962.

....So from a Geographical point of view, it makes sense that the area is on Thai side.... but from a legal point of view, it is in Cambodia,... nonsensical !

Did anyone ever has any discussion with a Thai, either in English or Thai language?

Most Thai are not just made out to argue a point or two.

They are at a distinct disadvantage at any international forum, particularly at world court setting where reasons, articulation, persuasiveness and sequential presentation and rebuttal are foremost significant.

From my personal experience, most Thai score below par at international setting; even though the younger generation Thai won international acclaim in mock trial at international setting a very short time ago.

These Thai sharpies are only at the theoretical level and not yet come of age to champion the course for Thailand yet at this time. But they did show promise at the international competition, much much better than any Thai old hacks sitting on current ministerial posts at the defense and foreign affairs offices, who has the gall to challenge the press at public hearing to prove that where the UNESCO and International Red Cross setup camp in the seventies for the benefits of the Cambodian refugees.... are Thai territorial. I almost fainted and shocked to the Nth power, when the defense minister challenged the press with such power and spurious dignity.

They are more than moronic, they are imbecile in every sense of the word.

I just wish and pray that the Thai representation this time around would not only present the facts as facts,

but more importantly, THEY MUST ARGUE THE CASE....

They must present the facts and rebut all the grounds set forth by the Cambodian counterpart, and they must succinctly argue the case in favor of Thailand.

They can not assume the position of silence nor assume the Thai attitude of silence means disagreement....

In international setting, silence means the opposite.... silence in westernized court means consent and agreement and acceptance of what the other party puts forth--facts or fallacies....

I wish and pray in silence for all of you representatives.... that you will wake up soon enough to reckon the facts before taking the podium to not only defend Thailand against the Cambodian allegations, but also argue the facts in favor of Thailand once and for all.... and forever put Cambodian out of her miseries, this time around.

HOWEVER, considering all past facts happening in recent Thai society as a whole.... this special class of moronic Thai elites in Thai govt happily sacrifices their own Thai citizens to appease the Cambodian govt which in itself is an amazing Thai ideology. This is like some U.S. citizens were surveying some southern parts of San Jose and wandering close to Mexican border. And the Amigo authority rushed over to arrest the U.S. citizen and dragged them over to Mexican border and then setup an photo op for press release and confirmation that the U.S. citizen were in fact arrested on Mexican territorial.

Most would say.... Absurd.... and that was exactly what happened to those 7 Thai citizens arrested on Thai soil and were dragged over to photograph to prove Cambodian point that those Thais were aggressors and violators with intelligence intent.... It was absurd.... but it was so....

On top of it all.... these ministers from Defense and Foreign Affairs Dept all chimed in to publicly state that.... the area where the Thai were arrested.... were indeed within Cambodian jurisdiction....!

What hope remains for Thailand at the world court.... this time around.... SHAME SHAME SHAME.... :fight::fight:

Will there be traitors' blood on the street.... is anyone's guess and utmost fear at this time....

Edited May 21, 2011 by vont

[whybother]

As far as I understand. ICJ was asked the question "Is the temple on Cambodian side?". Their answer was "yes" considering that according to the map drawn by the French and agreed on by Thailand was placing the temple in Cambodian side indeed. They were not asked about surrounding area and therefore did not mention anything about it, but if you follow their reasoning, then this area would still be in Cambodia too.

<snip>

If the ICJ were only asked "Is the temple on the Cambodian side?" then a clarification can only apply to that question. They can't clarify what they weren't asked.

[simon43]

Can I suggest this map as the best possible solution?

It would also provide Lao PDR with a much-needed sea port.

Edited May 22, 2011 by simon43

[vont]

Can I suggest this map as the best possible solution?

It would also provide Lao PDR with a much-needed sea port.

Great idea for international politics, promotion and cooperation.

It sucks in terms of reality.

It fails in terms of general public acceptance in Thailand.

But it is overwhelmingly welcomed in Laos.

The only thing left for you to do is.... putting up a grand price for the three countries competition....!

[samurai]

Can I suggest this map as the best possible solution?

It would also provide Lao PDR with a much-needed sea port.

How about a map like this. More beaches and coastal area for Thailand and Cambodia + a much needed sea port for the Lao PDR.

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