Learning To Love Yourself

[RickThai]

I was thinking about drinking and other destructive things people have a tendency to do to themselves, and I wonder how much of it is a result of people not really loving themselves (No I'm not talking about you know what!).

I started drinking as a kid, because (like smoking) it was my way of trying to be "grown up". Over time, I really like to 'party' and when drinking I felt that I was more interesting and more fun. I also did things that normally I was too reserved to do.

This gradually escalated over time, and finally reached a point, where the drinking started becoming less fun and more controlling. It was a 'quick fix' to alleviate bordom and escape parts of my life.

After almost dying from 40 years of drinking, I started looking at life from a different perspective. Every morning, I wake up smiling. I feel good about myself and my actions. Even if things tend to go wrong, I know that that is just a part of life, and getting on with your life and enjoying what you have, and trying to become a better person, gives me all the satisfaction I need.

I truly enjoy not drinking. I enjoy not blurting out the first thing that pops into my head, without regard to how it might make someone else feel. I enjoy all the beauty that I see in the world (whether I'm getting any or not ) and I enjoy the opportunity to learn.

After all these years, I think I have actually learned to love myself, and by doing that I am letting the 'real' me out to interface with the world.

As a result, I have become more spiritual person, and a more honest person. I find it really easy to make friends and I often start conversations with complete strangers without any hesitation or unease. Even beautiful girls will smile and chat with me like we were old friends. The reason for this, I think, is that somehow they sense, that I am completely at ease with myself, and that the 'vibes' I am giving off are pure and natural without any other motive, than to just share a moment or two of happiness.

I truly wish that others have this peace and happiness, and if so, I would invite you to share your thoughts, especially if you think self-love/respect, grew after you had stopped drinking.

RickThai

[GrahamF]

Excellent topic Rick!

I too have found that I like(love)/respect myself a lot more since I got sober. I am coming to realize that if I can't love myself then how can I love anybody else. It really makes a difference in my life and how I interact with others. I really enjoy being around people and my friends seem to enjoy being around me a lot more. For about the last three months I have been attending a weekly meditation session that concentrates on loving-kindness and I have found it to be extremely helpful in caring about myself and others. My outlook on life has really changed, I am calmer and happier than I have been in a long time.

When I was drinking, I really disliked myself.......I knew what I was doing to myself and hated it, but couldn't stop. It was a vicious circle, I would drink, then hate myself for it, drink again and hate myself even more because I thought I was weak because I couldn't stop. I feel so much better now, although I do struggle now and then, especially when I think about all the time I lost and the things I missed out on due to be being bombed. Sometimes it's easier to forgive others than to forgive yourself, I feel like I'm getting there though!

[xylophone]

The words to the George Benson song,"The Greatest Love Of All" reflect that sentiment.

Back in biblical times, the Gnostics believed (amongst other things) that if you were a good person, did good things and were able to look inside of yourself to understand what you did and why you did it, then the chances are you had found "god". They believed that true understanding of oneself and being a good person were the key elements, and that God existed inside of oneself and was not an external entity that had to be worshipped mostly through an hierarchical structure.

Alcohol can be destructive, especially where it is used as a crutch, however enjoying a few glasses of red wine with food is still a very pleasurable experience. I suppose it is the old saying, "moderation in everything" which comes to mind as well.

Good to hear of your experiences and your new outlook on life, long may it continue.

[trisailer]

Excellent topic.

I think that all roads lead back to ourselves. As a kid I was happy, clever and free. I never gave substances a thought. I had honor and confidence and everything I needed to have a happy balanced life.

Something happened that made me push all that aside so that I could go out and achieve the "American Dream" I learned to identify myself by my accomplishments and left that boy far behind.

I went off the rails in my 30's. I had achieved an above average success, was married with 2 kids but I felt completely miserable. Substances allowed me to stuff my feelings for awhile but they brought me to the brink. I brought me to the brink. I hated having to pretend that I liked the corporate types that I was forced to work with. The only time I felt peace was alone in the woods or on a boat.

After my crash I began several different processes to get a grip. One of the most significant things I did was carry a photo of myself when I was about 8 years old. I put it right out front where I could see it every time I opened my wallet. It was a daily reminder of WHO I was trying to save. During my life I've worked with young men in Big Brothers and Outward Bound. I've always received a huge benefit from helping others, but in hindsight I realize that the person who needed the most help was ME.

I think it is interesting that so many men who come here have the "white knight" syndrome. Their not looking to save a Thai woman for free. Their payment is love. The love that they are incapable of giving themselves. The lack of love for themselves is what makes some men so vulnerable. It also makes them much more demanding in relationships because what they need can't come from the place that they think.

Learning to love yourself is the most important thing we can ever do.

[likerdup1]

So if learning to love yourself has something to do with staying sober a curious alcoholic (like myself) would probably ask some questions. Probably something like this.

"OK, great, you tell me I need to learn to love myself. Now, that sounds very nice and all, but I'm a practical guy. Just how do you do that?" What do I need to do to learn to love myself?

So, anybody? In simple terms how do you do that?

[trisailer]

So if learning to love yourself has something to do with staying sober a curious alcoholic (like myself) would probably ask some questions. Probably something like this.

"OK, great, you tell me I need to learn to love myself. Now, that sounds very nice and all, but I'm a practical guy. Just how do you do that?" What do I need to do to learn to love myself?

So, anybody? In simple terms how do you do that?

The first thing you have to do is get sober. Go to AA and make a commitment to go to 90 meetings in 90 days. You don't even have to stop drinking, just go. You won't be asked to say anything. Just listen. If your not ready to make a commitment to 90/90 than keep doing what your doing because the only way you have any chance at all is to get alcohol out of your system. You maybe should see a doctor with expertise in this area.

I would also suggest starting a journal. Make it a safe place to talk to yourself. Don't bullshit your journal. Be honest. Protect it so you don't have to worry about anyone ever seeing it.

Get sober first and then you will know how to proceed.

I know it might sound crazy but find a photo of yourself when you were a boy and put it in your wallet where you have to see it. It is very powerful.

There's more, but first you have to get sober.

good luck. your not alone.

[xylophone]

So if learning to love yourself has something to do with staying sober a curious alcoholic (like myself) would probably ask some questions. Probably something like this.

"OK, great, you tell me I need to learn to love myself. Now, that sounds very nice and all, but I'm a practical guy. Just how do you do that?" What do I need to do to learn to love myself?

So, anybody? In simple terms how do you do that?

Not that easy I am afraid, and you have to work at it. Admitting that you have a problem with alcohol is a start and if you are honest with yourself you may well try to go to AA or similar meetings.

However with many folk there is an underlying problem which you need to identify and very often this means going back into your childhood experiences and look at what shaped you/what influenced you/what made you happy, and what made you sad/what did you want in your younger years and what did you actually get...........and so on. This could take a long-time because every experience which you can remember needs to be written down and examined.

Then see if there is any link between any of these experiences and what your behaviour may be now and when did it change.

Many things can influence children and young adults to make them go off the rails or exhibit destructive behaviours (such as alcohol and drug abuse, anger, violence towards others and self and so on) and identifying the root cause usually presents the key.

There is also a fantastic book called "Mind Over Mood" (Change the way you feel, by changing the way you think) by Dennis Greenberger and Christine Padesky which amongst other great things contains little worksheets which you need to do in order to get to the bottom of why you do what you do and how you can attempt to change it.

I can thoroughly recommend this book, and really encourage anyone to go through it and work at it, not just skip through it because it can be a life changer..............only if you want to change it, that is!!!

[RickThai]

So if learning to love yourself has something to do with staying sober a curious alcoholic (like myself) would probably ask some questions. Probably something like this.

"OK, great, you tell me I need to learn to love myself. Now, that sounds very nice and all, but I'm a practical guy. Just how do you do that?" What do I need to do to learn to love myself?

So, anybody? In simple terms how do you do that?

I agree with the other posts have stated in regards to your post. I think by just asking the post you are on your way.

For me, it took months of extremely painful, debilitating disease (End-stage-liver-disease) to 'wake up" and realize that life is a precious gift and you should make the most of it. During the course of my illness, I became so weak as to be almost helpless. I was totally dependent upon other people for such mundane things as going to the bathroom, and taking a bath.

I had no choice but to trust the doctor's, nurses, family members, and friends. By shedding all my inhibitions (wiping your butt with a beautifull, 28 year-old blonde nurse talking to you kind of humbles you) I learned that I didn't have to prove anything to anyone. That helped me to focus on what things are really important in life, such as commitments to family, friends, and to nature.

I became more interested in the spiritual (not necessarily, religion) aspects of living and sought out opportunities to study eastern philosophies and also westernized spiritual processes.

One thing that helped me put life in perspective, was learning about the "Law of Attraction". Although not really buying into the 'greed' aspects of the theory, I intuited that many of the concepts of the 'spiritual' side aligned themself with things I had observed and thought about throughout my life.

One of the things that really stuck me, is that you need to let go of your past. Dwell in the present and learn to enjoy every moment of every day. Focus on what you can enjoy now, not what you used to enjoy. Learn to trust and follow your innate instincts. People 'know' when they are doing the 'right' thing, as opposed to doing the most advantageous thing.

From Buddhism, I learned that being too attached to things, is foolish, since all things are transient. Compassion and quiet contentment are much more rewarding than cheap highs (or cheap sex) and fancy trinkets. I now try to live a life that is comfortable but not excessive. I find I get much more enjoyment out of a walk with my wife or a heart-felt conversation with a friend, than zooming around at 145 MPH in a Viper or having an affair with a co-worker.

I try to live my life as though my final days will be put on display for the entire world to see. Being free of guilt and trying to do what I feel is right, makes me more respectful of myself. My past mistakes no longer torment me as they have vanished, never to return.

If I make new mistakes, I believe in the Buddhist definition of Karma, which states that 'intent is what counts, not necessarily the action'. Deep inside, I know I strive to be the best person I can be.

I no longer beat myself up about anything, I just try to learn from mistakes.

I wake up happy every day so appreciative of my life and all the beauty that surrounds me.

That's how I got to where I am today. I hope this helps give you some insight into how you can learn to love yourself.

It's really not that hard, just alter your lifestyle so that you can feel good about yourself. Stopping drinking is a good way to start.

Best wishes.

Rick

Edited May 25, 2011 by RickThai

[trisailer]

Excellent post rick.

I have to say that at times I get pretty fed up with TV and then I read something like what you have written and I want to celebrate. Great writing!

[RickThai]

Excellent post rick.

I have to say that at times I get pretty fed up with TV and then I read something like what you have written and I want to celebrate. Great writing!

Thank you, trisailer.

I have to confess I've never had such a positive reaction to a post!

likerdup1:

The conversation that just transpired between trisailer and myself, could be used as an example of how to learn to 'love yourself'.

By sincerely attempting to help you (and others) understand how I learned to love myself, I was the recipient of some heartfelt praise that was a very positive enforcement of the fact that I know I am a worthwhile individual with something to contribute to our world.

I am worthwhile, not because of the praise, but because of my intentions of trying to do something worthwhile, resulted in someone else feeling better about an area in their life.

The bottom line, I believe is that by loving yourself, everybody wins.

I have a friend (a very beautiful Coed that I met at a clothing-optional hot springs), who once confided in me of her thoughts on the "collective consciousness of animals". She told me how she had presented her ideas during a college class, and was ridiculed by everyone. She said it made her feel so bad that she cried afterward and vowed she'd never mention it again to anyone.

I encouraged her to continue to elaborate on her theory, and I was able to relate to her some experiences that I had had that seemed to corroberate(sp) her theory. In the end we both were very happy and have become close friends sharing intimacies that a 26-year old woman would probably not often share with a 58 year old man, but we have developed a very strong respect for each other, and most important of all we trust each other.

As I go through life I find it easier and easier to relate to people in a more positive way. As a good friend of mine once said (re: adding joy to other people's day), "it doesn't cost me anything to make someone feel a little better about something, and we both are happier for it".

That makes sense to me.

Rick

Edited May 26, 2011 by RickThai

[Patsycat]

Lovely thread.

Brought a wee tear to my eye...

But, and you knew there was going to be a but!!

I am a happy person, even if i drink alcohol. I can be happy within myself. I am not on a 24 hour drunk session every day. I wake up humming (especially these days - sunny and warm) do my chores around my flat, speak to friends, neighbours, cuddle the cat etc.

My mum once told me I was born with a smile on my face. I have the laugh lines to show for that!!

Maybe i take life too much with a pinch of salt, I also hide my head in the sand when bad things happen that annoy me or upset me.

I think I am younger than you lot - ( i know no excuse). I know (I am not stupid, far from it) that eventually I may have to potter off to get help for this infliction. But for the moment I can juggle the two and still live a fulfilling life. And that is drinking perhaps 5 or six glasses of wine a day, not a liter of scotch.

On the other hand, there are late nights when I can't sleep and i get a bit morbid. But doesn't everyone?

I don't think that I have ever, conscientely hurt or upset my family with this. We have discussed it ad infinitum. My dad liked his drink and my sister only calls me when she is slurring.... so I am not the only one.

I know that you think that this part of the forum is only for people who have given up the evil poison. But I also think it should be for people who drink, and who may get some good advice from you sober ones. Like me!!

Lovely posts, guys.

[powderpuff]

Not that easy I am afraid, and you have to work at it. Admitting that you have a problem with alcohol is a start and if you are honest with yourself you may well try to go to AA or similar meetings.

However with many folk there is an underlying problem which you need to identify and very often this means going back into your childhood experiences and look at what shaped you/what influenced you/what made you happy, and what made you sad/what did you want in your younger years and what did you actually get.......

I did mention this in another thread. That drinking excessively is not the problem. Something inside of us is wrong & we drink to numb the pain or to forget about it.

And Rick Mentioned guilt. I think that is very important too. As was said above. The past is in the past. We can't change that. What we can do is learn a lesson & also live in the here & now. Ditch the guilt.

But as Phil says the first step is admitting we (I) have a problem & that my pattern of drinking is abnormal. I have been sober a while without having to work too hard or look over my shoulder. I was trained very well by my little Bangkok Group of AA.

[likerdup1]

Thank you for all the replies, I'm afraid though, I'm as confused or even more so than when I started.

I've been 18+ years sober and worked the 12 steps several times. What I found out was that it was about loving others more than myself. In this way a relationship with God started. "To be of maximum service to God and those about us" is what the original 100 AA's found to be their way of life. It was when I learned to have concern and love for others above myself that relief from alcoholism came. AA states "selfishness, self-centeredness, that we think is the root of our troubles". Also states "self knowledge availed us nothing" . As an alcoholic in my cups it was all about myself, and satisfying self. Now it's about trying to help others and love others that gives me freedom.

Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate the genuine good tone and nature of this thread. I was very curious because I have heard the idea of "loving yourself" before in AA. I found out later that as nice as it sounds, none of the literature talks about it. I know now it's because self-lessness is what AA is really about.

The 12 steps are simple directions which when followed give the taker a relationship with a Power Greater which solves the drink problem.

Edited May 27, 2011 by likerdup1

[trisailer]

When we are young we make mistakes. A lot of mistakes. We don't beat ourselves up over them and most of us forget them almost as soon as we make them. As we get older the consequences of our mistakes are greater. At the same time we are getting messages of fear, shame and guilt. Some more some less but they are powerful messages and they become integrated into our very soul. We also learn to fear things. Fear is a normal function when it is acute however it becomes a problem when it is chronic. I submit that fear is epidemic. The fear of not being liked, of being a failure and the greatest fear of all that we haven't lived up to our fathers expectations.

There are processes of confession and forgiveness but those processes focus on seeking forgiveness from others. At the same time people are way too worried about others think of them. As a result we don't learn how to forgive ourselves. We continue to make mistakes for sure, but without a way to unload the guilt and shame and fear it can overwhelm us.

Learning to love yourself begins with forgiveness. Not the kind that comes from outside, but the only kind that matters from within. Forgiving yourself sets off a completely different dynamic that crushes fear.

We are born with the ability to let go of fear, we just forget how we did it. Dorothy in the "Wizard of Oz" was on a quest to return to her family. After all her adventures she learned that she had the power all along. We all have the power to come home any time we want..

Most of us are so far from "home" that we don't have a clue of how to even start the journey back. Trust me when I say that most people don't want you to make it out because if you make it home it is completely threatening to them. Misery truly does love company.

I'll give you an example: Lady Gaga is the most talented performer to come along for a very long time. She gets criticized a lot for being herself. Why would it bother anyone else what she chooses? Fear, that's what. Her response to that is her recent video "born this way" which is all about her process of loving herself and sticking her finger in the eye of those who are so uptight that they are living in misery. Millions of people are watching that video, but are they getting "it" Young people are getting it. They are expressing it just like some of the music of our time. So why is it not going away?

When you get lost in the woods you go back to the last place that you were sure of. I had to go back to when I was eight and start from there.

[GrahamF]

Thank you for all the replies, I'm afraid though, I'm as confused or even more so than when I started.

I've been 18+ years sober and worked the 12 steps several times. What I found out was that it was about loving others more than myself. In this way a relationship with God started. "To be of maximum service to God and those about us" is what the original 100 AA's found to be their way of life. It was when I learned to have concern and love for others above myself that relief from alcoholism came. AA states "selfishness, self-centeredness, that we think is the root of our troubles". Also states "self knowledge availed us nothing" . As an alcoholic in my cups it was all about myself, and satisfying self. Now it's about trying to help others and love others that gives me freedom.

Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate the genuine good tone and nature of this thread. I was very curious because I have heard the idea of "loving yourself" before in AA. I found out later that as nice as it sounds, none of the literature talks about it. I know now it's because self-lessness is what AA is really about.

The 12 steps are simple directions which when followed give the taker a relationship with a Power Greater which solves the drink problem.

I think it might be a natural progression that as one helps others that you are naturally going to feel better about yourself. Not in a selfish way, honestly, when I look back at myself when I was drinking and compare it to how I am now, I can't help feeling better about myself and liking myself more. I know that the people around me like me a lot better as well.

[RickThai]

Its obvious everyone here has put a lot of thought into who they are and why they abuse (or use to abuse) alcohol. It's also, interesting that Patsycat (the lone female poster, I think) was the only to state that she is happy with herself. Maybe men have a tendency to do more things they aren't proud of when they drink to excess? I don't know. I do know that when I used to drink, I would try and reach my "Happy Place". Unfortunately, for me, that "Happy Place", was just me, tricking myself that I was happy.

Regardless, if you have been a heavy drinker in the past, and have been drinking for decades, your liver really can't afford to take any more abuse. You can either quit now, or wait until you get too sick to ever drink again.

I made the wrong choice and kept drinking until it almost killed me. By the time I stopped drinking (about a year before I went into ESLD), it was too little, too late for my poor, old liver. That's why I am taking so much care of my new liver. I know now, that if you really loved yourself, you wouldn't continue to poison, your weakened liver, and hasten your demise.

I know that for me, I am happier than I have ever been in my life, and that happiness is orders of magnitudes beyound whatever fun or joy I had ever gotten from drinking.

For the first time in my entire life, I am totally in control of myself, and that gives me a warm feeling that is rock solid. I feel good about myself.

My desire is that all of you fighting a drinking problem (whether you know it or not) should conquer your demons (however it takes) and live a long, happy life, free from intoxicants.

Rick

[Patsycat]

Rick,

With all of the respect in the World.

If you had not got the horrible liver infection, do you think you would still be drinking?

Or did you you just continue and continue until you had to say no?

I haven't had my liver tested, I was supposed to in that awful clinic place. They were going to take bloods etc.

I suppose if i did have it tested in normal circumstances and the doctors diagnosed me to have liver failure - I would be first in the queue for help.

Another of my head in the sand posts..

[likerdup1]

Thank you for all the replies, I'm afraid though, I'm as confused or even more so than when I started.

I've been 18+ years sober and worked the 12 steps several times. What I found out was that it was about loving others more than myself. In this way a relationship with God started. "To be of maximum service to God and those about us" is what the original 100 AA's found to be their way of life. It was when I learned to have concern and love for others above myself that relief from alcoholism came. AA states "selfishness, self-centeredness, that we think is the root of our troubles". Also states "self knowledge availed us nothing" . As an alcoholic in my cups it was all about myself, and satisfying self. Now it's about trying to help others and love others that gives me freedom.

Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate the genuine good tone and nature of this thread. I was very curious because I have heard the idea of "loving yourself" before in AA. I found out later that as nice as it sounds, none of the literature talks about it. I know now it's because self-lessness is what AA is really about.

The 12 steps are simple directions which when followed give the taker a relationship with a Power Greater which solves the drink problem.

I think it might be a natural progression that as one helps others that you are naturally going to feel better about yourself. Not in a selfish way, honestly, when I look back at myself when I was drinking and compare it to. how I am now, I can't help feeling better about myself and liking myself more. I know that the people around me like me a lot better as well.

I like to think of the promises. The promises are written after the 9th step in the big book and even though read in meetings are the 9TH steps promises.

What I'm trying to point out is that if you are doing the program of AA learning to love yourself is not part of it. It is not from the program of AA. Really, think about it. Honestly, does anyone really know what that means anyhow? Telling a new alcoholic coming to AA that all he has do to is "learn to love himself" IMHO is a bad idea. If I can't figure out after 18 years of sobriety what that really means than how is a newcomer going to figure it out. Look can anyone honestly say we got straight answer about how to do it here in this thread. I was even more confused then when I started, everyone gave a different opinion and no actual directions.

What I latch onto are the promises which can be expected AFTER taking the steps. The promises and feeling better about yourself come after working the steps, staying sober and helping others.

In terms of who to love. AA gives us this explicitly from the book.

AA who to love in order:

1) God

2) Others

3) Me

I hope this helps. Please, us AA members should not bring confusing information to the meetings. We need to stick to the program of AA which is in the Big Book. After all, we are going to AA meetings!

"If we are thorough about this phase of our development (meaning doing the 9th step) we will be amazed before we are half way through"

We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.

We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.

We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace.

No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others.

That feeling of uselessness and self pity will disappear.

We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.

Self-seeking will slip away.

Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.

Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.

We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.

We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves.

[ThaiPauly]

Likerdrup,

you already love yourself, 18 years of sobriety proves it.

If you did not you would not have made it.

Your sense of priorities seems fine to me. AA's are asked only to pray for others, and only for themselves if by doing so they can help others.

Right now I am in hospital recovering from a nasty operation, which was centimetres away from my brain and I have a tube coming out of it and the doctors don't understand why there is no improvement and I am in so much pain that I get pethadine every six hours, thats the best they can do for me so I pray, but not for myself, I pray that I can outlive my parents who are both in their 80's, if something happened to me it would devastate them, also I know how much my Wife loves me as well as my three children and they would hate to see anything bad happen to me

I don't really think about loving myself, it's really a non-issue. I do my best not to abuse my body, but have my vices like smoking, but I seem to have a great deal of bad luck healthwise, especially the last year ,its been one thing after another and I have probably only been well for one month in the last 12.

I just try and remain positive and upbeat, if I decend into the pit of despair it will just make things worse for me and those that love and care for me.

I try and remember 3 things:

1. Shit Happens

2. This too shall pass.

3.I'm not OK, you are not OK , but thats OK.

Likerdrup I think you are OK.

Please excuse me if this post makes no sense , I wanted to make a post in response to your question, but I am not my normal self right now because of the meds and maybe am not thinking to straight.

Good luck to us all.

[GrahamF]

Hang in there TP!!! You sound ok to me!

[trisailer]

Thank you for all the replies, I'm afraid though, I'm as confused or even more so than when I started.

I've been 18+ years sober and worked the 12 steps several times. What I found out was that it was about loving others more than myself. In this way a relationship with God started. "To be of maximum service to God and those about us" is what the original 100 AA's found to be their way of life. It was when I learned to have concern and love for others above myself that relief from alcoholism came. AA states "selfishness, self-centeredness, that we think is the root of our troubles". Also states "self knowledge availed us nothing" . As an alcoholic in my cups it was all about myself, and satisfying self. Now it's about trying to help others and love others that gives me freedom.

Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate the genuine good tone and nature of this thread. I was very curious because I have heard the idea of "loving yourself" before in AA. I found out later that as nice as it sounds, none of the literature talks about it. I know now it's because self-lessness is what AA is really about.

The 12 steps are simple directions which when followed give the taker a relationship with a Power Greater which solves the drink problem.

This is a difficult issue to respond to because the program of AA is so important in effecting and maintaining sobriety. It is true that "self knowledge availed us nothing" but it is only true because we were ill while under the influence. Alcoholism and other compulsions are deceases of THE MIND. Our minds are constantly at work trying to balance the demands that are placed upon it. Those of us who have suffered trauma don't always have access to tools to regain balance and so we self medicate with substances that take the edge off. Unfortunately removing the "edge" tricks our minds into believing that the issue is solved temporarily and we're able to carry on, but the underlying issue is still there and it usually resurfaces at the worse possible time, when we are in crisis.

A pastor friend of mine told me that his definition of sin is that it is a separation from god. I would add that it is a separation from ourselves and for a lot of men it is separation form our fathers. God and self love are not incompatible, they are mutually supportive. In the book "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell" the author talks about the origins of "the hero" and we can put ourselves on that list.

The program of AA gets us stabilized and off from alcohol. The steps are as effective as they are because they parallel the brains natural process. The principles of self-honesty, confession and restitution are as old as mankind. We've developed a habit of turning to alcohol instead of facing our issues, but if we've been sober for a long time we've broken that habit to the extent that we are capable of making healthy choices for our lives.

Helping others, supporting them and being a good listener carrying them to meetings are very effective because it is an act of love. We're not getting paid for our efforts, but we are getting a benefit. The benefit is the love that is reflected back to us. That goes a long way, but I think it's limiting. It is vicarious love instead of direct love for ourselves. I think that after we are stable and free from alcohol we can and should focus on cultivating a love for ourselves. Many of us are fortunate to have the love of a good woman, but what happens if she goes away? Gets moody, angry? I think that loving ourselves not only fortifies us to be in relationship but it makes us less dependent on love from "outside". The love that comes from inside is so much more powerful and can sustain us in crisis.

I think that all of our attempts to find god and find love are really attempts to find ourselves. I think that the kingdom of god is within us and cultivating that inner love makes us so much stronger than seeking it elsewhere. Situations that I encounter in life are so much easier to manage today because I have this core love. I adore my wife and would die for her, but she can be a handful sometimes. I have been with women who pushed all my "buttons" before and would frequently loose it. I can be patient with my wife because my happiness is not completely intertwined with her love for me. If she's having a mood it's easy for me to let it pass. I am a better husband because I learned how to love myself.

Get a copy of Elton John's CD "The One" I think that this CD is about recovery and loving our selves. When he talks about finding love he's really talking about love for himself (ourselves). This CD came out when I was in recovery and it spoke to me beyond words. I think that this whole CD is about recovery. I was going to post the lyrics, but I don't know if that violates the TV rules. It's easy enough to get them on line.

When I hear "runaway train" I hear that the "love that's lost" is the love from others that I was so dependent on and the train is the new me, stronger because of loving myself.

The last song is the most powerful song of all because it deals with the separation from our fathers. For me, the key to finding my way back to loving myself was through finding my way back to my father. Those of us who did not have close relationships with our fathers, like me are lost in the wilderness. The most powerful spiritual experience in my life was reconnecting with my father who killed himself when I was 20. From that moment on we have been one. Every day I walk on this earth he is with me and I now have the strength to heal him along with myself. This is a big deal for a lot of men.

Lastly, I think that I have mentioned before that a very powerful process for me was putting a photo of myself when I was 7 years old in my wallet where I had to look at it every time I open it.

[Patsycat]

Luther Vandross (RIP) sings a song called Dance With my Father Again. My Dad died 9 years ago, and that song just sums it up. I miss my daddy every day and to be able to have the chance to dance with him one last time means everything to me.

We all build walls around ourselves, to protect ourselves. But in the end we are just vulnerable little kids.

I shall have a look on U Toob for the Elton songs you mentioned. He does write some good lyrics. I may have had that CD but I gave all my CDs to my neighbour the other day. I have no machine to play them on any more. I did suggest that I would go round and put them in their boxes - there must be about 250 or 300 of the dam_n things!!!

Now I am just trying to persuade him to take the vinyls as well.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Patsycat

[RickThai]

Wow. I'm learning alot from this thread. As for AA and the faith connection (God), if that helps you stay sober, then I say that is a good thing.

Other people may have different beliefs, but I still believe the important thing is to be content with yourself. A person who is unhappy tends to 'act out' in various ways. Excessive drinking can be one of those ways. Combine 'acting out' with being drunk, and then you do things that you later regret. This in turn, makes you feel even worse about yourself. As several posters have pointed out, you have to stop drinking and get sober before you can start understanding yourself.

For me, and I suspect for most people, they know when they are doing something 'good' and 'right', and they know when they are doing something that deep down inside them is 'wrong'. Self respect and love of self comes automatically from doing 'right' things. Then you start turning outwards and embracing life and others.

They in turn will start embracing you. Like the saying, "You have to be a friend, in order to have a friend."

Patsycat:

You are right in that it was almost dying and going through the misery from liver disease, that caused me to stop drinking cold turkey. If I had had no symptoms, I would have continued to drink until, I either had some serious legal issues involving booze (DUIs, etc.) or died of something.

At any rate, I would have never discovered the joy of living that I have now. I would have died without ever finding out just how much life has to offer, if you stay sober and reach out to people. My true persona, would have remained locked away, suppressed by inner guilt and surplaced by a drunk's revelry and charm (you know how that goes).

Drinking tends to suppress growth in other areas of your life. For some people, they can have a glass or two of wine, one or twice a week, but most people who drink tend to drink to excess.

For me it's almost like being a kid again, innocent eyes looking afresh at the great world in which we live. Living life with a clear mind and a clear conscious is the greatest accomplishment I have ever made.

Patsycat, you seem to know a great deal and get a great deal of enjoyment from your music, yet you seem to be giving away your collections. Are you punishing yourself, or are you getting ready to depart?

Please don't give up your music or anything else. As long as you live, there is always hope. You just have to trust in yourself and others.

A person's past can disappear in a second, and a new life can begin. All it takes is a feeling of self worth and something to strive for.

A blessing is being offered for you.

Rick

Edited May 31, 2011 by RickThai

[likerdup1]

Wow. I'm learning alot from this thread. As for AA and the faith connection (God), if that helps you stay sober, then I say that is a good thing.

Other people may have different beliefs, but I still believe the important thing is to be content with yourself. A person who is unhappy tends to 'act out' in various ways.

Rick

I understand you still believe living sober is just matter of being content with yourself. It sounds like a nice idea but, If what we are talking about combating is alcoholism then according to what I know and have read in the AA book about alcoholism, what you are suggesting is using self will. You are suggesting we "learn" to do something, that it is the sufferer who needs to "learn". It suggests that we should try, on our own thinking to be a certain way. To try and make ourselves be a certain way. What you suggest is self reliance, which AA says does not work. In fact, nobody has posted any direct instructions on how to learn to love ourselves.

Alcoholism is a serious disease, suffers need something powerful to help them. How can any alcoholic in his cups, "just learn to love himself"? I think this information sounds very nice but nobody has given me any direct answer on how to do it. Most real alcoholics need some answers, not more confusion. They need something to do, some directions to take. Not some fluffy words that go around in circles.

The great thing about AA, is, if anyone really cares to study the AA big book, there are EXACT instructions about what to do. Ask anything about the how to stay sober the AA way you can find it in the Big Book. Self knowledge avails us nothing. AA says alcoholics CAN NOT LEARN TO STAY SOBER THEMSELVES. That is ALWAYS the case, even though I'm 18 + years sober. I didn't learn how to stay sober. I sought a higher power that did it for me. I like AA because AA is easy to understand and there is no confusion about what to do. I can some it up in a few sentences.

1) AA says alcoholics are powerless over the disease. They lack the power to quit for good. That is how alcoholism is. Many alcoholics wish to stop but cannot, it is because they have alcoholism and are not capable of quiting for good or moderating even when honestly wanting to.

2) Dr. Carl Jung gives AA the solution. "A spiritual awakening" (found on page 23 of the book)

3) How to get a spiritual awakening is to take the 12 steps.

that's it. It is simple and I have given directions and and explanation about what to do.

One of the answers I got on this topic was. The first thing to do is stay sober so you should go to AA.

Edited June 1, 2011 by likerdup1

[RickThai]

Wow. I'm learning alot from this thread. As for AA and the faith connection (God), if that helps you stay sober, then I say that is a good thing.

Other people may have different beliefs, but I still believe the important thing is to be content with yourself. A person who is unhappy tends to 'act out' in various ways.

Rick

I understand you still believe living sober is just matter of being content with yourself. It sounds like a nice idea but, If what we are talking about combating is alcoholism then according to what I know and have read in the AA book about alcoholism, what you are suggesting is using self will. You are suggesting we "learn" to do something, that it is the sufferer who needs to "learn". It suggests that we should try, on our own thinking to be a certain way. To try and make ourselves be a certain way. What you suggest is self reliance, which AA says does not work. In fact, nobody has posted any direct instructions on how to learn to love ourselves.

Alcoholism is a serious disease, suffers need something powerful to help them. How can any alcoholic in his cups, "just learn to love himself"? I think this information sounds very nice but nobody has given me any direct answer on how to do it. Most real alcoholics need some answers, not more confusion. They need something to do, some directions to take. Not some fluffy words that go around in circles.

The great thing about AA, is, if anyone really cares to study the AA big book, there are EXACT instructions about what to do. Ask anything about the how to stay sober the AA way you can find it in the Big Book. Self knowledge avails us nothing. AA says alcoholics CAN NOT LEARN TO STAY SOBER THEMSELVES. That is ALWAYS the case, even though I'm 18 + years sober. I didn't learn how to stay sober. I sought a higher power that did it for me. I like AA because AA is easy to understand and there is no confusion about what to do. I can some it up in a few sentences.

1) AA says alcoholics are powerless over the disease. They lack the power to quit for good. That is how alcoholism is. Many alcoholics wish to stop but cannot, it is because they have alcoholism and are not capable of quiting for good or moderating even when honestly wanting to.

2) Dr. Carl Jung gives AA the solution. "A spiritual awakening" (found on page 23 of the book)

3) How to get a spiritual awakening is to take the 12 steps.

that's it. It is simple and I have given directions and and explanation about what to do.

One of the answers I got on this topic was. The first thing to do is stay sober so you should go to AA.

likerdup1:

I'm glad you are sober, and I'm glad AA , combined with your faith, worked for you. Staying sober for 18+ years is really an accomplishment. However, I still think that AA is not the only way, and it definitely doesn't work for some people. I agree that you will never learn to love yourself, if you continue to drink, and I also agree that 'a spirtual awakening' or awareness if you will, is often part of recovery. I do not believe that 'spiritual awakening' can only come about through the 12 steps.

Of course you have every right to believe that, but my point is, many alcoholics (if not all), don't like themselves for some reason or another. Perhaps, they don't like themselves because they are drunks, perhaps they are drunks because they don't like themselves (kind of a chicken and egg thing), but regardless, I believe that once a person really respects themselves (i.e. loves themselves), they become at peace with the world, and their true persona can blossom. Once alcohol is no longer the center of their lives, they can move on and grow in different areas, including spiritual growth.

One thing I wonder about with AA, is that it seems that even though the members don't drink anymore, that is all they seem to talk about. Their life still revolves around alcohol.

As for me, whatever I did in my past, is history, and I will not let my future revolve around alcohol, there is too much other facinating things in the world. Besides this forum, alcohol never enters my conversations or my thoughts anymore. Once a person loves themselves, they wind up having a very happy and full life. They become to busy to worry about drinking.

At least that's what happened to me.

Rick

I

[Patsycat]

Rick,

I gave away my music collection because i have no more use for it. Most of my cd's are old and scratched.

And as you guessed, i am also looking for a new place to live (long story) and I gave them to a guy who is a hoarder!! And who loves all music.

I threw out all my videos too!! Now I only have the vinyls which I shall take to a shop here and try to sell.

The DVD's I'll keep.

Take care.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Patsycat

[RickThai]

Rick,

I gave away my music collection because i have no more use for it. Most of my cd's are old and scratched.

And as you guessed, i am also looking for a new place to live (long story) and I gave them to a guy who is a hoarder!! And who loves all music.

I threw out all my videos too!! Now I only have the vinyls which I shall take to a shop here and try to sell.

The DVD's I'll keep.

Take care.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I hope all is going well with your life. Sometimes, shedding excess belongings is a good thing.

Good luck with your house hunting. That can be kind of stressfull within itself.

Smiles.

Rick

[Patsycat]

Here is my song

[goldenbow]

Is there difference between LIKE and LOVE myself?

[philo]

Fascinating thread.

Purist AA vs. New Age.

Me myself have cirrhosis and alcoholic dementia and would like to have a new liver and brain. I find it it strange that the OP doesn't even mention the blessing he was given by the liver transplant.

Anyway, I hope that his 'pink cloud' will carry him forever. Me myself is so sick that I smuggle alcohol into the hospital when I am on a detox 'vacation'.

May you all live long and happy. And if you have a spare rope, please lift me out of this bottomless dark pit.

Alcoholism is a disease of the self - and imho the self should neither be punished nor adored - but dumped (the oriental way) or given to a higher power (the occidental way). Either way we all agree on one thing - Plug that Jug.

May the force be with you.