The Music Is Over

[sausageandmash]

So how many times are you working a week?

I'm just a regular musician who can put on a show, but this is not about me, it's meant as an example!!!!

This may sound arrogant,but show me a Thai musician, who can do a better job than me!!! very hard to find my friends, not only are we artists,we are specialized entertainers,making people feel great and that's the name of the game,people feel great in a place ,they come back!

You make it sound like you are Van Halen of someone of similar talent.

[sausageandmash]

It depends if you are serious about being a legal musician. If you are teaching English and playing 1 gig a month, forget it. However, if you are playing regularly and it is your main income, there are people who can get you a WP.

Of course you can apply for an entertainers work permit, but you have more chance of getting a BJ from the pope. The only way to get this is by having a contract of employment from a venue, or from agents who specialise in getting work permits for Filipino musicians/singers.

By the way, the 50,000 Baht requirement does not apply to musicians. When I had my WP from the Hard Rock Cafe in Bangkok, I had a look at the contract that was submitted to the labour dept, and the figure was a lot less than 50K.

@sausageandmash

What you are saying?

That you can't apply for an entertainers work permit unless you know the right people?

If that is the case then I was right, officially the only way to get a work permit (without knowing the right people) is by starting a business which involves employing 4 Thai staff and paying tax on a 50,000baht salary which is too expensive for most musicians etc

[newtronbom]

I never speak any word here, only reading, but honestly I am quite boring about these kind of stupid poor actions from Thai authorities, who ALWAYS (!!!!!!!) need to argue and speak and push up such kind of attention to cultural issues -

OH MY GOD, when I think about the tattoo issue - what a BIG LAUGH (!!!!!!!!!!!!) AND SO ON AND ON AND ON...while red shirts or terrorists probably plan their next bad actions and the poor people in Isaan still have to suffer so much and so long and nobody takes any REAL good and democratic action to resolve these IMPORTANT things at first !!!!!!!!!

Really, its unbeleavable, how much Thai people or authorities can be able to mix up important with unimportant things and to throw their valued energy for this as well so badly !!!!!!!!!

People have to die in a swimming pool, because of an energie cable ?? NEVER MIND !!! Go on with your stupid bloody cable salad in the streets - botch here a bit and there A bit and there a bit, never mind always !!

Just 2 weeks ago I had to watch someone oposite my apartment has suffered much because a defect main cable, so that emergency needed to come - it just made a very BIG WOOOOOOOOOM all around my area and energie was closed around as well for minutes.

Well, maybe Im not a old guy to have less experiences in watching unnecessary exidents, but honestly I never experienced so much bullshit within 30 years in my home country like I saw within the shortest time here in Thailand !!!

Boring boring boring......nothing to say...be glad to be here and try to close eyes always and accept such stupid things like from another galaxy !!!!!

Should I better go home ?? Well sorry, maybe, maybe not...but its STIll interesting to watch all this bullshit happen. Ha ha ha !! ...even if not always much to laugh...

SABAI SABAI SABAI AND always nice smiling to avoid offend people unnecessarily, as they never would like to talk about problems all the times so much, if you know about THIS kind of little mentality issue, well well well... : /

We are all just not perfect - just trying to say it more positively...however..

THAILAND LISTEN TO ME !!!!!

YOU CAN HAVE PROBLEMS, REALLY, I HAVE NO WORDS - BUT JUST IGNORE AND THROW YOUR FARANG GUESTS IF THEY THINK AND SPEAK TO MUCH LOUDLY AS NORMAL THAIS WOULD NOT DO !!

ALWAYS QUITE EASY FOR YOU TO SEPERATE PEOPLE IN KON DJAI DEE AND KON DJAI DAM !!

And Kon djai dam go home please, really easy - as long they dont give enough money to resolve their little personal issue. Of course ! ;o)

MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY.............

I think I can see why you have only made 2 posts in 2 years. Your writing is.................amazing!

[newtronbom]

<br />

<br />

<br />A lot of &lt;deleted&gt; written here by posters.<br /><br />If a Thai musician, or sportsperson, comes to UK or USA to do their thing, they need a performers or sporting visa. No difference here.<br /><br />I knock Thailand a lot, but I don't see why people who can strum a guitar, or play the piano, should get off with financing their stay here by earning a few baht without the proper permissions and permits.<br />

<br />I totally agree, as does Immigration, however many of us are comfortably off, and play merely because we enjoy performing, and would not be allowed to if patrons did not enjoy listening (or not). The current situation is that even very casual jamming will result in arrest as it appears one is going to have to prove ones innocence in court with a great deal of stress and at significant expense.<br />

<br /><br />I know what you're saying. But, again, if a Thai singer or athlete deliberately and publicly entertained a crowd in UK or USA, then he / she would need a proper permit or visa to do so.<br /><br />By using the word 'patrons' you're definitely performing in public. No question.<br /><br />For your purpose, all you want to do is invite people around to your home for a BBQ and play amongst yourselves. In a public venue, sorry, but you're out of order.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Yes, but a Thai or anyone else, could jam for a few nights in a local pub most anywhere in the UK or I would think, the US without any fear of being arrested and having to fight for his/her freedom. As you say though and I agree, an organized venue or public concert are a different matter and to be treated as such. The impromptu getting together in Thailand, by one or a few artists here for a good jam to show off "their stuff" and color, should be encouraged and be without any risk of arrest or harassment. There is not any way that this could damage or hurt a Thai or anyone else. Quite the opposite. If the artist is good, they would give inspiration to any local Thai artist and enrich that person in doing so, as well as provide the 'patrons' with a good time. If you watch sports on television, you will see many foreigners playing football here and some teams being coached by them too. Nothing wrong with that at all but shows that foreigners can take the place of Thais to impart their knowledge. I just don't understand why it should not be the same for music and why life should be so difficult for musicians here, that's all. So what if they earn a "few bucks" from the crowd? You can bet the foreign footballers are not doing it for free. As many have said. There are more pressing problems and issues to focus on, rather than ruining a bit of fun.

[Arkady]

A lot of &lt;deleted&gt; written here by posters.

If a Thai musician, or sportsperson, comes to UK or USA to do their thing, they need a performers or sporting visa. No difference here.

I knock Thailand a lot, but I don't see why people who can strum a guitar, or play the piano, should get off with financing their stay here by earning a few baht without the proper permissions and permits.

You're right about &lt;deleted&gt;, and it's mainly from you!!

So you're saying that if a musician (of any nationality) walked into a pub in the UK and decided to get up and jam with whoever was playing, they would 1st have to apply for a 'performing visa'? - Utter &lt;deleted&gt;!

Financing their stay by playing music? In Thailand? Get real!

I have been to quite a few blues jams in London and I would say that in the summer months probably nearly half of the musicians jamming on stage are foreign visitors. Admittedly many but not all, are from EU countries and thus untouchable, but I am certain that this would not meet the definition of working without a work permit in the UK because it is clearly a recreational activity, not paid employment. I think that Thailand needs to amend its definition of work in the law to encourage volunteer tourism and stop intimidating foreign musicians who jam for free. Those who play for pay should remain fair game, as in most other countries.

[newtronbom]

Sorry about double post. The forum, at least for me, froze up then would not reload when I answered this thread. Anybody else get that??

[Arkady]

Underlying all of this a far more sordid story. The family of one of my wife's acquaintances owns a noodle shop and last week one of their low paid waitresses, a pregnant Burmese woman, was hauled off to the Immigration jail in Soi Suan Plu. The Immigration police allegedly requested B200,000 to clear up this misunderstanding which I don't think they are able or willing to raise. The Burmese woman and her unborn child will be lucky to survive the ordeal in prison. Conditions are far worse even than in the mainstream Corrections Dept prisons and disease and malnutrition are rife. Thailand now relies on foreign labour, mainly Burmese, to make up nearly 10% of its workforce and the number is still growing. Some have short term alien cards and work permits but it is complicated and expensive to get documented and it is estimated that 60-70% are illegal. This means that there are around 3 million illegal immigrants living and working in Thailand. It is impossible for this situation to exist without corrupt cooperation from government officials going up to the highest levels. In some border areas, over 90% of the workforce is Burmese which must be pretty obvious to police, immigration and labour officials. Policy of successive governments seems to be to turn a blind eye to this problem so that the country's inefficient businesses can continue to profit from unsophisticated, sunset, sweat shop industries that would be unviable if foreign labour was properly regulated and employers were forced to pay living wages, provide medical care and respect workers' human rights. Planning to move up the value added scale in industry like more developed Asian economies have done, is hard work that requires dedication to a long term perspective that is lacking from Thai politicians who mainly just want to get rich quick. The businessmen are happy with their sweatshops and the politicians and government officials are happy with the bribes they pay. So who wants to fix this? The system works best with draconian laws and interpretations that make it hard to get proper documentation, so the bribe flow remains lucrative and there is no question of any form of permanent residence or naturalisation for the workers. Meanwhile workers who complain about poor conditions and not payment of wages continue to be thrown to the sharks by Thai trawler owners.

[lukestyles]

It depends if you are serious about being a legal musician. If you are teaching English and playing 1 gig a month, forget it. However, if you are playing regularly and it is your main income, there are people who can get you a WP.

Of course you can apply for an entertainers work permit, but you have more chance of getting a BJ from the pope. The only way to get this is by having a contract of employment from a venue, or from agents who specialise in getting work permits for Filipino musicians/singers.

By the way, the 50,000 Baht requirement does not apply to musicians. When I had my WP from the Hard Rock Cafe in Bangkok, I had a look at the contract that was submitted to the labour dept, and the figure was a lot less than 50K.

@sausageandmash

What you are saying?

That you can't apply for an entertainers work permit unless you know the right people?

If that is the case then I was right, officially the only way to get a work permit (without knowing the right people) is by starting a business which involves employing 4 Thai staff and paying tax on a 50,000baht salary which is too expensive for most musicians etc

So an entertainers work permit is just a fairytale?

Then the only other options are being employed by the venue (not bloody likely), signing up to an agency (pricey) or starting your own business (very pricey)

In my experience from Phuket none of the venues (from the big hotel chains to the nightclubs) will supply work permits unless you are very lucky, it is all left up to the performer to arrange and even if they did you would still only be legal to work in one venue as your work permit is tied to that one location.

The agencies who get permits for the Filipino cover bands hit the Farang performers in the wallet hard.

Most of them want 20% of all earnings in Thailand plus tax on 50,000 baht a month whether you earn or not. This is without factoring in the lawyers fees, non immigrant 'b' visa plus flights and hotels for visa runs.

Essentially you are talking 50,000 baht outlay just for permit paperwork and non 'b' visa before you even think about handing over 20% of all earnings plus your flat pack tax..

So anyone who wants to try becoming legal via an agency or by starting their own business would need a good few quid in savings before they could even think about it.

The only affordable option is finding a venue generous enough to put you on their books officially but in my experience this is very unlikely.

Most entertainers are lucky enough to find any venue to pay them a salary, shopping around for a venue that will also sponsor your permit would be like searching for a needle in a haystack. Anyway even if you miraculously found that venue the permit would be tied to that one location which is pretty crap for a performer who wishes to take his music on the road or get involved in an impromptu jam session so it wouldn't rectify the state of affairs in Chiang Mai.

The Thai immigration and employment law is designed to discourage people on lower budgets and unfortunately that includes most performers.

If they want music, art and culture to come to Thailand they need to change this or declare Thailand a strictly high end destination where only the most accomplished of entertainers are welcome but the high end talent tend not to move to places where there isn't any vibrant underground scene.

So Thailand has a catch 22. They want to be seen as a hub of cultural vitality whilst discouraging all but the wealthiest entertainers.

Sorry Thailand you can't have one without the other lol

[Socialcapitalist]

Yeah well this is the land of smiles, Singapore you play on Orchard Road and nothing will be happen, even if People give you Money, walk in some places in Penang and Play, nothing stupid like in Thailand will be happen.

Change the Country maybe then they wake up, which I doubt, fits in to all the other stupid and nonsense Visa rules.

[lukestyles]

Yeah well this is the land of smiles, Singapore you play on Orchard Road and nothing will be happen, even if People give you Money, walk in some places in Penang and Play, nothing stupid like in Thailand will be happen.

Change the Country maybe then they wake up, which I doubt, fits in to all the other stupid and nonsense Visa rules.

In Thailand I can live in heart of Bangkok with access to a swimming pool for less than 200 pounds a month.

Singapore is almost as expensive as London and the only foreigners I know who live there are from rich families or they are stock brokers and marketing executives.

Singapore is not for the average joe who wants to live on a budget and play some tunes. A place like singapore is where you go to start a business empire, become a derivatives trader or property magnate not sit around strumming a guitar for some free beer.

I will stick to Thailand until Singapore gets a tad cheaper thanks

Edited June 5, 2011 by lukestyles

[Arkady]

Most entertainers are lucky enough to find any venue to pay them a salary, shopping around for a venue that will also sponsor your permit would be like searching for a needle in a haystack. Anyway even if you miraculously found that venue the permit would be tied to that one location which is pretty crap for a performer who wishes to take his music on the road or get involved in an impromptu jam session so it wouldn't rectify the state of affairs in Chiang Mai.

You can in fact have several jobs and/or work locations entered into one work permit. There is even a space at the back for adding them. A second or third job just needs written permission from the primary employer. So you are not tied to the one location but, of course, you need all the paperwork from each employer which would probably make it impractical. However, working at two separate locations for the same employer can easily be entered into your work permit. Once you have already got the minimum salary for the first job, I don't think the salary for subsequent jobs is important, viz. expats who are directors of several group companies but only receive a salary from the primary one. Re qualifications, I don't know what the Labour Ministry looks for. For most jobs they seem to be happy with a bachelors degree in any subject, except things like teaching that need a teaching certificate too, even though it pays less than most other jobs. If they asked for music qualifications, most of the Filipinos would not qualify (however good they are). So I assume that is not essential.

[lukestyles]

Cheers Arkady

I knew there were ways around it but as you say it's pretty impractical as it involves a primary employer officially employing you in all of your gigs so that is not really a permit to take your music on the road or jam in different venues. If you have to apply to the relevant authority through your primary employer that kind of cancels out the impromptu jam sessions does it not?

Knowing Thai bureaucracy it probably takes a few weeks and costs a few thousand baht to add a new venue to your work permit so it's probably rather expensive and time consuming for a DJ or musician to take on gigs

As for qualifications I don't see how they are relevant for DJs and musicians. dam_n most of the best entertainers dropped out of school to spend their formative years getting high and playing tunes : )

[getgoin]

The thing that people have to remember is that musicians are people. Janitors, dishwashers, ditch diggers, and people are all the same. Sure musicians think they are special just like stock brokers or politicians think they are special. People are people and work is work. Sorry but this is an fact of life. Be real and get real.

[KimoMax]

Simple Soution:

Musician Pays 1 thb per hour to play. That surely is not working, just as like in a Kareoke Bar where customers pay to sing kareoke.

By doing this, it is put right back in the face of those that are trying to Stop the Music.

Edited June 6, 2011 by KimoMax

[lukestyles]

Simple solution is to make acquiring a work permit easier then tax people on their earnings instead of on 50,000 baht a month. Surely that way they will probably end up making more money. But that involves long term thinking which isn't big out here.

[sausageandmash]

Where do I start?

I haven't worked in Phuket for 10 years, so I can only comment on my situation in Bangkok. I pay 30,000 Baht a year for my WP, which includes tax and visa fees. This is the same rate as my Filipina singer has to pay.

The agent is a genuinely lovely Thai woman who really wants to help foreign musicians. In fact, she had to pay Flilipine officials a lot of tea money at the embassy, because they weren't going to allow a Filipina singer to leave her own country to come and work in Thailand. The only problem is that she won't do it for people she doesn't know. Hard to believe, but she's not in it for the fast buck.

If you're working for a hotel 5 or 6 nights a week, they are seriously dodgy if they don't provide a WP, but we play twice a week at a hotel in Bangkok and myself and the Filipina singer have to provide our own WPs. No hotel will provide a WP for 1 or 2 nights a week.

I think you're painting a very black picture. If you have a band made up of only farang expats, things will be difficult legally, as the only farangs that usually get WPs are musos that fly in for 3 month contracts. An all-Farang band with no WPs stick out like a sore thumb. Most Farangs here are teachers, who have no intention of giving up their day jobs to play music (and I don't blame them). I wouldn't mind betting I'm the only Farang in Bangkok with a musician's WP who lives here permenantly. Not that it's anything to brag about, but I just found the right way and put a band together mainly made up of Thais.

You also mentioned "most entertainers are lucky enough to find a venue to pay them a salary" - sorry, but what kind of idiot would work for free. (If that's not what you meant, I apologise). Would you walk into a classroom and teach for free?

This business about agents and what they charge - you must have met some real sharks. First of all, the entire band is offered a job by an agent, for which they accept or decline. No-one is tied to an agent. Even the venues can tell the agent to get stuffed if they think he's too pricey. I don't know a single agent who could get away with what you're saying. Of course, one can look for work for your band directly, and in an ideal world it would be great to get the work yourself, but knocking on doors is something not everyone has time for, so agents are a necessary evil.

It depends if you are serious about being a legal musician. If you are teaching English and playing 1 gig a month, forget it. However, if you are playing regularly and it is your main income, there are people who can get you a WP.

Of course you can apply for an entertainers work permit, but you have more chance of getting a BJ from the pope. The only way to get this is by having a contract of employment from a venue, or from agents who specialise in getting work permits for Filipino musicians/singers.

By the way, the 50,000 Baht requirement does not apply to musicians. When I had my WP from the Hard Rock Cafe in Bangkok, I had a look at the contract that was submitted to the labour dept, and the figure was a lot less than 50K.

@sausageandmash

What you are saying?

That you can't apply for an entertainers work permit unless you know the right people?

If that is the case then I was right, officially the only way to get a work permit (without knowing the right people) is by starting a business which involves employing 4 Thai staff and paying tax on a 50,000baht salary which is too expensive for most musicians etc

So an entertainers work permit is just a fairytale?

Then the only other options are being employed by the venue (not bloody likely), signing up to an agency (pricey) or starting your own business (very pricey)

In my experience from Phuket none of the venues (from the big hotel chains to the nightclubs) will supply work permits unless you are very lucky, it is all left up to the performer to arrange and even if they did you would still only be legal to work in one venue as your work permit is tied to that one location.

The agencies who get permits for the Filipino cover bands hit the Farang performers in the wallet hard.

Most of them want 20% of all earnings in Thailand plus tax on 50,000 baht a month whether you earn or not. This is without factoring in the lawyers fees, non immigrant 'b' visa plus flights and hotels for visa runs.

Essentially you are talking 50,000 baht outlay just for permit paperwork and non 'b' visa before you even think about handing over 20% of all earnings plus your flat pack tax..

So anyone who wants to try becoming legal via an agency or by starting their own business would need a good few quid in savings before they could even think about it.

The only affordable option is finding a venue generous enough to put you on their books officially but in my experience this is very unlikely.

Most entertainers are lucky enough to find any venue to pay them a salary, shopping around for a venue that will also sponsor your permit would be like searching for a needle in a haystack. Anyway even if you miraculously found that venue the permit would be tied to that one location which is pretty crap for a performer who wishes to take his music on the road or get involved in an impromptu jam session so it wouldn't rectify the state of affairs in Chiang Mai.

The Thai immigration and employment law is designed to discourage people on lower budgets and unfortunately that includes most performers.

If they want music, art and culture to come to Thailand they need to change this or declare Thailand a strictly high end destination where only the most accomplished of entertainers are welcome but the high end talent tend not to move to places where there isn't any vibrant underground scene.

So Thailand has a catch 22. They want to be seen as a hub of cultural vitality whilst discouraging all but the wealthiest entertainers.

Sorry Thailand you can't have one without the other lol

[spidermike007]

the government of thailand had better get a grip and wise up, foreighners have poured money into this country for years and still do, if this kind of behaviour against us continues we will find cambodia a more suitable place as do a lot of people and ex pats allready, these laws are just a slap on the face for us foreigners and it makes me think that thai people dont really want us here, or do not really even like us , they have stopped foreigners getting religious tattoo,s allready which is maybe fair enough but why not stop thai people getting religious tattoo,s ? double pricing against foreigners ? i could go on and on

Well definitely not Cambodia. With Hun Sen being one of the most heinous and corrupt men on earth, it is best to avoid his cesspool. But, you are right in that there are alot of other options in the region. Many of the other governments in the region are wising up. Thailand continues to go BACKWARDS. There is such a phenomenal lack of wisdom on the part of the Thai government. There is such a lack of talent, intelligence, vision, foresight, and prudence on the part of these guys. There is a saying amongst foreign women, who are married to Thai men, and that is that many Thai men never mature past the age of 13. That is certainly true with many members of the Thai government. They never seem to make the right decisions, for the right reasons. If they make one right decision, it is for the wrong reason!

[spidermike007]

All this can be called, is weak, fearful, superstitious, soft, lacking in courage, and non-visionary to the extreme degree. Just another example of a country that continues to take steps backwards. I understand enforcing work permits. But, do these tiny minded "men" who are enforcing these rules stop to think of how little money is involved. I could understand it is a famous star comes here and plays an arena, without the requisite permits. But, we are talking about guys who play for fun, and for passion. It is doing nothing but enhancing the super anemic local cultural scene. Is this yet another example of xenophobia manifesting itself? There are incredibly small men, who are out there enforcing these arcane, silly, protectionist laws (more appropriately called women, though I would not want to put women down in this fashion). These tiny people are lacking heart, lacking guts, lacking wisdom, and generally lacking in most areas of life. If they had a real life, they would not be denying peoples these simple pleasures. So, I say to these tiny men, get a life! Leave the creative souls alone, and start contributing something real and tangible to Thai society.

You're accussing others of prejudice ?

So what do these non-working farangs contribute to Thai society ?

Pot,kettle, black.

Sorry to criticize. I now realize that in your rose colored world, one must always praise, and there is no room for positive criticism. So sorry to have offended your delicate constitution.

[Arkady]

Cheers Arkady

I knew there were ways around it but as you say it's pretty impractical as it involves a primary employer officially employing you in all of your gigs so that is not really a permit to take your music on the road or jam in different venues. If you have to apply to the relevant authority through your primary employer that kind of cancels out the impromptu jam sessions does it not?

Knowing Thai bureaucracy it probably takes a few weeks and costs a few thousand baht to add a new venue to your work permit so it's probably rather expensive and time consuming for a DJ or musician to take on gigs

As for qualifications I don't see how they are relevant for DJs and musicians. dam_n most of the best entertainers dropped out of school to spend their formative years getting high and playing tunes : )

Adding another job or location to a WP is a routine thing at the Labour Ministry that takes a couple of days, if the paperwork is in order and the charge is a nominal government fee for making a change to a WP which I think was 100 baht, the last time I had to change something in mine (not adding a job or location though). I know people who have done it for office jobs and it was simple. How it works for musicians would of course be another question.

[huck]

Great article... 15 day reporting for musos! Wonder if you can get back to back???

David

It is a great article Jane Witcomb has writen for City Life.

Firstly:

I believe Mr Ruchuchai Potha is interpreting Alien Working Act BE 2551 ( 2008) wrongly.

The act says for wages or benefits. This means the alien needs to have benefits from this work or wages

not the bar or other patronage.

Secondly;

I believe Thailand is in direct violation to Human Rights Article 27, which states:

Everyone has the right freely to partisipate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

Once a country has alowed a person (foreigner) to live in that country he or she becomes a part of that community regardless of types of long duration visa's. So any person with more than a tourist visa enjoys the human rights under article 27 of the UN charter

[sausageandmash]

Hold on. Anyone can be a janitor, a ditchdigger or a dishwasher, but not anyone can be a musician. Playing music takes skill, dedication and years of practise and lessons. How long does it take to train a waiter? Nuff said.

The thing that people have to remember is that musicians are people. Janitors, dishwashers, ditch diggers, and people are all the same. Sure musicians think they are special just like stock brokers or politicians think they are special. People are people and work is work. Sorry but this is an fact of life. Be real and get real.

[dekestone]

Secondly;

I believe Thailand is in direct violation to Human Rights Article 27, which states:

Everyone has the right freely to partisipate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

Once a country has alowed a person (foreigner) to live in that country he or she becomes a part of that community regardless of types of long duration visa's. So any person with more than a tourist visa enjoys the human rights under article 27 of the UN charter

Good luck with that one, mate.

[lanna2011]

Underlying all of this a far more sordid story. The family of one of my wife's acquaintances owns a noodle shop and last week one of their low paid waitresses, a pregnant Burmese woman, was hauled off to the Immigration jail in Soi Suan Plu. The Immigration police allegedly requested B200,000 to clear up this misunderstanding which I don't think they are able or willing to raise. The Burmese woman and her unborn child will be lucky to survive the ordeal in prison. Conditions are far worse even than in the mainstream Corrections Dept prisons and disease and malnutrition are rife. Thailand now relies on foreign labour, mainly Burmese, to make up nearly 10% of its workforce and the number is still growing. Some have short term alien cards and work permits but it is complicated and expensive to get documented and it is estimated that 60-70% are illegal. This means that there are around 3 million illegal immigrants living and working in Thailand. It is impossible for this situation to exist without corrupt cooperation from government officials going up to the highest levels. In some border areas, over 90% of the workforce is Burmese which must be pretty obvious to police, immigration and labour officials. Policy of successive governments seems to be to turn a blind eye to this problem so that the country's inefficient businesses can continue to profit from unsophisticated, sunset, sweat shop industries that would be unviable if foreign labour was properly regulated and employers were forced to pay living wages, provide medical care and respect workers' human rights. Planning to move up the value added scale in industry like more developed Asian economies have done, is hard work that requires dedication to a long term perspective that is lacking from Thai politicians who mainly just want to get rich quick. The businessmen are happy with their sweatshops and the politicians and government officials are happy with the bribes they pay. So who wants to fix this? The system works best with draconian laws and interpretations that make it hard to get proper documentation, so the bribe flow remains lucrative and there is no question of any form of permanent residence or naturalisation for the workers. Meanwhile workers who complain about poor conditions and not payment of wages continue to be thrown to the sharks by Thai trawler owners.

Depressing...

[Wavefloater]

"The recent crackdowns are not only affecting foreign musicians in Chiang Mai, but also businesses and local tourism - though to what degree depends on your standpoint regarding this issue"

No! To what degree depends on pure facts, not an individual's standpoint. Facts like how many foreigners are staying in hotels and spending their money in local businesses.

I really can't believe that any substantial number of tourists plan a trip to Chiang Mai with the primary goal of sitting in bars at night listening to amateur musicians. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill! It's undeniably true that if foreigners want to listen to amateur musicians in bars, they can find many more of them in the bars in their own countries.

I've played guitar for over 30 years, have been in bands, and even did a semi-regular (non-paying) gig in a bar in Thailand, so I'm not without an understanding of the situation or without appreciation for the fun of entertaining the crowds, but once you start trying to tell me that this situation has any appreciable effect on tourism and trade, you've lost credibility.

Sure, there's an issue here worthy of discussion, but it would be better-focused on the the xenophobia of Thais and their close-mindedness when it comes to welcoming Western culture -- not the affect on tourism.

[andrew55]

Underlying all of this a far more sordid story. The family of one of my wife's acquaintances owns a noodle shop and last week one of their low paid waitresses, a pregnant Burmese woman, was hauled off to the Immigration jail in Soi Suan Plu. The Immigration police allegedly requested B200,000 to clear up this misunderstanding which I don't think they are able or willing to raise. The Burmese woman and her unborn child will be lucky to survive the ordeal in prison. Conditions are far worse even than in the mainstream Corrections Dept prisons and disease and malnutrition are rife. Thailand now relies on foreign labour, mainly Burmese, to make up nearly 10% of its workforce and the number is still growing. Some have short term alien cards and work permits but it is complicated and expensive to get documented and it is estimated that 60-70% are illegal. This means that there are around 3 million illegal immigrants living and working in Thailand. It is impossible for this situation to exist without corrupt cooperation from government officials going up to the highest levels. In some border areas, over 90% of the workforce is Burmese which must be pretty obvious to police, immigration and labour officials. Policy of successive governments seems to be to turn a blind eye to this problem so that the country's inefficient businesses can continue to profit from unsophisticated, sunset, sweat shop industries that would be unviable if foreign labour was properly regulated and employers were forced to pay living wages, provide medical care and respect workers' human rights. Planning to move up the value added scale in industry like more developed Asian economies have done, is hard work that requires dedication to a long term perspective that is lacking from Thai politicians who mainly just want to get rich quick. The businessmen are happy with their sweatshops and the politicians and government officials are happy with the bribes they pay. So who wants to fix this? The system works best with draconian laws and interpretations that make it hard to get proper documentation, so the bribe flow remains lucrative and there is no question of any form of permanent residence or naturalisation for the workers. Meanwhile workers who complain about poor conditions and not payment of wages continue to be thrown to the sharks by Thai trawler owners.

Depressing...

This is indeed a far more sordid story. This scenario is too common and not easy to find reporting of.

Perhaps slightly off topic, but worthy of a seperate thread.

You have offered some perspective.

Thank you.

[Arkady]

Does anyone know what has actually happened to the farang musicians who were arrested at Northgate Jazz Coop and Guitar Man in Chiang Mai in April and May? I found a thread from 2005 that indicated Guitar Man was prosecuted that year for allowing a farang to jam on stage but won the court case on the grounds that the farang was an amateur musician who was no more working than people at karaoke parlours.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Apparently Jane (who wrote this article) was in North Gate two nights ago and saw this guy interviewed (Labour Dept) enjoying a beer and swaying to the music being played by the (previously arrested) farang musicians. She said he seemed to have been having a great time!

[weary]

If that's true, I'd really like to shake the guy's hand.

A bit like back when Koh Phi Phi only had one policeman back in the nineties, and you never failed to see him shaking his booty at night with the rest of us.

[aussiechick]

This may sound arrogant,but show me a Thai musician, who can do a better job than me!!! very hard to find my friends, not only are we artists,we are specialized entertainers,making people feel great and that's the name of the game,people feel great in a place ,they come back!

I recently went to the opening of a open mic bar in Pattaya, they had a few foreign groups lined up and one group of Thai's, the foreigners nearly went home after hearing how good they played, they were possibly one of the best groups I have heard in Thailand and they were just 14 and 15 years old.

I know who you mean bazmlb - they are good - possibly to do with the fact that two of them have Dads as musicians as well. Yes, you were right - I kept hearing "Glad we are not on after them!"

Lets hope we see more of these kids - they are only allowed to play on non-school nights too