darren1971 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Hi, I have been with my thai girlfriend for 2 years, she has been granted two 6month tourist visa's to the uk, we re-applied for a third and have been refused. The reason being given that she has stayed too long in the UK. Ihave attached the refusal letter from the border agency... Now what do we do? what should we do? we were both discussing possibly getting married but thought another 6 months together would be good before we made such a big step.... Having said that I would rather marry her a bit earlier than not see her at all for extended periods of time, 6 months apart every year is a bit much for us both to take !!! Any advice would be appreciated, im thinking we have a few options... 1. get married and apply again as a married couple for a tourist visa then apply for settlement whilst she is here... 2. wait 2 months and re-apply... 3. appeal... Always had tip-top advice on here, hope you can come through for us again, Cheers Darren... Bath, Uk IMG_0001.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 The file you have attached only contains the last page of the refusal notice, and does not contain the reasons for the refusal; at least when I open it. Can you post the full refusal notice again, please. However, you say that the reason was she has spent too long in the UK; does this mean that she has, or will if this application were granted, spend more than 6 months out of 12 in the UK as a visitor? You've known each other for 2 years and she's already had two 6 month visit visas; does this mean that out of last 24 month she's already spent 12 months in the UK? The convention, not rule, is that a visitor should not normally spend more than 6 months out of 12 in the UK. As said, this is not a rule but a visitor would need to show a good reason why they need to spend so much time in the UK in order to be allowed to do so. Visiting one's boyfriend would not be considered such. Based on what you have posted so far: Q1. Married or not, she would have to deal with the reasons for this refusal in any future visit application. If she did obtain another visit visa she could not make an in UK application for settlement while in the UK as a visitor. If she wants to settle in the UK she has to apply for settlement in Thailand. Do not get married just to get a visa. Q2. Depends on the reason for the refusal. As above, any future application will have to deal with the reason for this refusal to be successful. Q3. What type of visit visa did she apply for? Only family visit applications have a right of appeal; general visits or tourists do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren1971 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 woops! here is the refusal letter with reasons refusal first page.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren1971 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 Seems their concern is that she is using the visit visa as a means to reside with me in the uk.... which is in fact what we are doing... it is really the only option for a couple from our respected countries to continue a relationship together... We wouldnt get married to obtain a visa, we would get married to be able to continue a relationship together, no serious relationship can survive with 6 months apart every year.... if it could then really that doesnt constitute a serious relationship, ironic eh? she has spent 7 months here in the last 13 months, now she has been back in thailand 2 months... maybe we should just wait another 2 months but i dont feel that really adresses their concerns either... maybe really the only option is marriage and settlement as we are both now stuck in limbo with an incetain future and unable to make any progress with our wants and desires... im sure buddah had some stuff to say about wants and desires, seems he was right again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) Had this application been granted then she would have spent 11 and a half months out of 17 in the UK as a visitor! Certainly against the spirit of the visit rules; although as already said, not the letter. I cannot see how she can have any valid reason for spending so much time in the UK as a visitor; I agree with the ECO that it does appear that she is trying to use visit visas to live in the UK with you. Edit, it seems that you agree too! Sorry, but the two of you need to decide if your futures lie together or not, and whether or not you are ready for marriage. If you are, then marry and apply for settlement; if not then wait until she has been out of the UK long enough not to fall foul of the '6 months out of 12' convention and apply for another visit. Meanwhile you can always visit her in Thailand. I know this seems harsh, but it is a fact of life for those of us in long distance, cross border relationships.Many have been down this path before you, myself included, and the relationship has survived. If your relationship is real, yours will too. Edited June 2, 2011 by 7by7 Addenda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren1971 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 fair comment, i can see the reasoning, but obviously its hard to quantify the harm of her staying here when she is not working and being supported by me solely... but rules is rules i guess..... Thanks for your help, will have to think long and hard about what to do next, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Indeed, what is the harm in one visitor living in the UK and being solely supported by her sponsor? But what if it's 100, or 1000, or 10,000..............? The rules, and conventions, are there to stop people abusing the system by living and working in the UK illegally; that they also affect genuine people like yourselves who have no intention of such abuse is unfortunate, but a fact of life we have to live with. As is the fact that some people who abuse the system get away with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkockney Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Fiancé visa or student visa gives you more time together to decide if you want to marry. No need to jump in and decide to marry or spend long periods of time separated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I would strongly advise against using a fiance visa as a glorified visit visa. It is a settlement visa, only obtain one if you intend to marry in the UK during it's 6 month validity and then apply to settle in the UK (Further Leave to Remain). If not married at the end of it's 6 month validity she would have to leave the UK and when next applying explain why she did not marry and apply for Further Leave to Remain. As for a student visa, see Tier 4, General and Child Student Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkockney Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) No they would marry in Thailand instead of a second fiancé visa. Nothing in the immigration rules that says you can't change your mind. Or circumstances change meaning they can't marry during that period for any conceivable reason. The fact that one has a fiancé visa but did not marry in the UK would not mean a future spouse application could be refused. I would strongly advise against using a fiance visa as a glorified visit visa. It is a settlement visa, only obtain one if you intend to marry in the UK during it's 6 month validity and then apply to settle in the UK (Further Leave to Remain). If not married at the end of it's 6 month validity she would have to leave the UK and when next applying explain why she did not marry and apply for Further Leave to Remain. As for a student visa, see Tier 4, General and Child Student Edited June 2, 2011 by bangkockney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAZZELL Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 It might be a good idea if the OP obscures his Gf's name on the refusal notice RAZZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren1971 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 Indeed, what is the harm in one visitor living in the UK and being solely supported by her sponsor? But what if it's 100, or 1000, or 10,000..............? The rules, and conventions, are there to stop people abusing the system by living and working in the UK illegally; that they also affect genuine people like yourselves who have no intention of such abuse is unfortunate, but a fact of life we have to live with. As is the fact that some people who abuse the system get away with it! interesting points, but the numbers are irrelevent as long as the visa rules are adhered too... On the Border agency site it say's that the tourist visa permits a person to stay for 6 months in any 12 month period (a guideline and not a strict rule) During the last 14 months my girlfriend has stayed 7 months, if it is considered overstaying to use the full term of the visa then the visa term should be shortened. I wonder what will happen when all the asian countries overtake the so called western world in wealth, will we then be applying for visa's to go and visit their countries and being refused.... anyhow just ranting but its an interesting topic. Anyway once again thanks for your advice, i think i will go back to thailand (never a bad thing !!!) spend some time together there and apply again for a tourist visa in 2 months time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren1971 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 It might be a good idea if the OP obscures his Gf's name on the refusal notice RAZZ Thanks Razz will do that... doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaiVisaExpress Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 We have just won an appeal in the UK but we are awaiting the determination this is in regards to frequency of visits. It seems at the appeal my clients argument was that his partner had spent 6 months in the UK in 2010 and returned in December.He wanted to return in March 2011 the UK/BA said she had not spent her 6 months in her host country, his main point is he wanted his 6 months for 2011 now not when they say. He won the appeal & once we have confirmation I will post it on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawhod Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 What I find most annoying about the refusal notice is the comment:- "Whilst I note to your credit, that you complied with the conditions of your recent visa, you did so only within a matter of 8 days of your visa expiring" What a fatuous reason to include in the reason for the refusal. Is a visa valid for 6 months or for 6 months less some time dreamt up by an ECO. I am particularly incensed by such comments since our first refusal was full of similar such fatuous reasons...I will post it later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAZZELL Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Had this application been granted then she would have spent 11 and a half months out of 17 in the UK as a visitor! Certainly against the spirit of the visit rules; although as already said, not the letter. I cannot see how she can have any valid reason for spending so much time in the UK as a visitor; I agree with the ECO that it does appear that she is trying to use visit visas to live in the UK with you. Edit, it seems that you agree too! Sorry, but the two of you need to decide if your futures lie together or not, and whether or not you are ready for marriage. If you are, then marry and apply for settlement; if not then wait until she has been out of the UK long enough not to fall foul of the '6 months out of 12' convention and apply for another visit. Meanwhile you can always visit her in Thailand. I know this seems harsh, but it is a fact of life for those of us in long distance, cross border relationships.Many have been down this path before you, myself included, and the relationship has survived. If your relationship is real, yours will too. Totally agree. Unfortunately "those are the rules" (Guidelines) Good luck with whatever you decide to do RAZZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawhod Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) See attached file for copy of our UK visa refusal I would like to make some observations on paragraph 1. - We had been together for 4 months when the application was made. - "The Email are brief and formulaic"... There were a considerable quantity of Email, the content of the Emails, I think, should be no concern of the ECO. I,mistakenly, assumed that the ECO would realise that my girlfriend did not read or write English and had to use the manageress at the Internet shop to read and write them (a service which she charged for) - "The photo's are undated"... All the photo's were identified on the reverse side. There were a couple where this was obvious but the ECO didn't bother to look at the rest. - "You visited Australia in 2009 for one month"...My girlfriend had visited Australia but not with me. However she had complied with that visa completely. She stayed for 1 month (out of the 3 month visa validity) then returned to Thailand. Surely this was to her credit Whilst I cannot argue with the comments in paragraph 2, she was self employed but not working whilst I was with her.... And........she did have land but didn't tell me...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Visa refusal_0001.pdf Edited June 3, 2011 by rawhod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Bangkockney, it is true that they could travel to Thailand when the fiance visa expires, marry and then apply for settlement as a spouse. Which would mean two settlement applications at £810 each plus return flights to Thailand in a period of just over 6 months. Expensive way of doing it. Plus, the OP says that they are not yet ready to marry; what if they are still in that position at the end of the fiance visa? The chances of getting a visit visa immediately after the expiry of a fiance visa would, in my opinion, be next to zero. I stand by my comment; a fiance visa should not be thought of as a glorified, and easier to get, visit visa. Darren, the numbers may be irrelevant, but the rules are such that visit visas are for visits, not settlement and the convention is that a visitor should not normally spend more than 6 months out of 12 in the UK. That in the previous 14 months she had spent only 7 months in the UK is not the issue; the issue is that if this application had been granted then she would have spent 11.5 months out of 17 in the UK as a visitor. TVE, with respect, I think you would agree that the circumstances of your client are a little different to the OP's. By his own admission the OP was seeking to use visit visas so his girlfriend could live with him in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren1971 Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 So the question remains then, a visit visa is just for being a tourist, staying with friends or a partner could be deemed as against the rules? surely residing in the uk means without an intention to return? Also the 6 months out of 12 is open to too much interpretation, is that per calendar year, starting from the first visit etc etc..... i think the border agency should clear this up. The fact also remains that a person staying in the UK, recieving full sponsorship, not working, not claiming any benefits can't be seen as abusing the system. The border agency made a point of the fact that she left 8 days before the visa expired but made no not of the fact that the visa was 6 weeks old before she came to the uk..... To anybody with a molecule of intelligence this reeks of bolting the window at the front and leaving the barn doors open at the back.... Also we are now left having to wait for time to expire before she can visit again but with no idea or bassis to work out the time we should leave... 2 months? 4 months? 6? The fact that a strong relationship should survive things like this gives no thought or respect to people feelings or theyre ability to get on with their lives and make plans for the future... Just another reason why Im leaving the UK for good as soon as possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 A visit visa is not just for tourists! There are several categories of visitor; both tourism and visiting friends come under 'General.' Yes, '6 months out of 12' is open to interpretation, as it is a convention, not a rule. The guidance to both ECOs and IOs simply states that visitors should not normally spend more than 6 months out of 12 in the UK. How that period is calculated and how the convention is applied depends on an individual's circumstances, as is right and proper. But how anyone can expect to be able to spend 11.5 months out of 17 in the UK as a general visitor without having an exceptional reason for doing so is beyond me. You have admitted Seems their concern is that she is using the visit visa as a means to reside with me in the uk.... which is in fact what we are doing...and that is an abuse of the system.It seems that you feel that you should be allowed to abuse the system, unlike all of us with Thai partners who have followed the rules, despite the separation that doing so caused. Rules, it has to be said, that have been regulalrly tightened up because of people who abuse the system! If, when you leave the UK, your intention is to live in Thailand you will find that it is a lot easier for a Thai to get permanent residence in the UK than it is for a Brit to do the same in Thailand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren1971 Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 I completely disagree... we have applied for 2 visa's which have been granted and adhered to in every way... no where does it say that she is not allowed to reside with me during her 'visit'... couldnt we argue that a visitor who comes for a holiday on a visa is only using the visa to reside at hotels...??? where does it say that a girlfriend using a visitor visa will be abusing the visa rules if she decides she wants to stay with her boyfriend? in fact the border agency want the visitor to have proof of where she will stay and with who, and we have been 100% honest and open about those details...? If there are no strict rules about the time periods, why cant we say that she is staying 11 months out of 24? are we just presuming that after this visit she will be coming back??? if someone applied for their first visa for 6 months its like refusing it on the basis they would have stayed 6 months out of 6 and thats an abuse of the system! We have been granted 12 months stay in the uk and she has stayed 7 months, how is that abusing the system and making hard for the decent folks like yourself ???? amazing ! sounds to me that how and when you use visa's for your gf is fine but anybody else is abusing the system.... of course if you find me evidence which says what we are doing is an abuse of the system then fair enough.... With regards me staying in thailand, thailand is not my home nation and their immigration policy is not my concern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Are you deliberately missing the point? Or is it, as you now say that the UK is not your home country, that English is not your native language and that is why you have difficulty in telling the difference between a visitor staying with her boyfriend during her visit and someone using a visit visa to live semi-permanently in the UK? Where is your home country, and how easy or difficult would it be for a visitor to spend 11.5 months out of 17 in that country? Visitors are allowed under the rules to spend up to 6 months at a time in the UK, and usually up to 6 months out of 12. So applying for a 6 month visit visa and spending 6 months in the UK is not an abuse of the system. But were that visitor to return home and immediately apply for another 6 months visa then they would almost certainly be refused. My girlfriend is now my wife and has been for nearly 11 years. Before obtaining her settlement visa she did apply for a visit visa, but was refused on reason to return grounds. We bit the bullet and communicated by phone and email until I could return to Thailand to see her. When we felt ready, we married and she applied for, and was granted, settlement. We didn't whine, we accepted that we had to abide with the rules and managed until we could be together; like most members here have also done. As for your other points, I have already answered them and have no desire to repeat myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren1971 Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 not at all, just dont think we have abused the system and made it harder for all you 'real couples using the system to the letter' I have many frinds who have thai wives, some have settled here and some in Thailand... all im saying is some clarity in the time period rules would be helpful, you are right a visit visa can be for many reasons and one of them can be to stay with friends, family, partners. And we have applied immediately, seems you are having trouble with the english language too, if granted she would of been home for 3 months. So anyway lets agree to disagree, i dont want to get into an argument with you because you have been very helpful with your advice and I appreciate that... So we will wait and apply again for a visit visa, but only so she can have a holiday and go see big ben because i wouldnt want to be making it harder for all the real couples to not reside together on visit visa's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider0064 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Hi, For what its worth i,ve known Nam since feb 07 and she has been successful with three VV, no refusals YET everything done by us (no agents) due to the advise on this forum for which i have got to thank, even if i'm not a prolific poster i read & review many times the advise given it's 1st class. Although i would not suggest this was how things have worked out so far for us - 1st April 08 - 6 months returned to thailand sept 08 ( NOTE, nam only indicated that she would stay 4-6 weeks but stayed longer, the reasons explained in future applications) 2nd applied feb 09, Visa April 09 - Sept 09 3rd applied july 10 ( now that was a long wait), visa sept10 - feb 11 (Nam loved the snow) Nam only visited the UK 6 or less months in any 12 which i think is the key to your question, and also the history betwwen us. Hope this helps, Good Luck Spider PS Nam subbmitted the settlement application last month so fingers X all will be OK, i;m hoping we will know mid July. spider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAZZELL Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 (edited) See attached file for copy of our UK visa refusal I would like to make some observations on paragraph 1. - We had been together for 4 months when the application was made. - "The Email are brief and formulaic"... There were a considerable quantity of Email, the content of the Emails, I think, should be no concern of the ECO. I,mistakenly, assumed that the ECO would realise that my girlfriend did not read or write English and had to use the manageress at the Internet shop to read and write them (a service which she charged for) - "The photo's are undated"... All the photo's were identified on the reverse side. There were a couple where this was obvious but the ECO didn't bother to look at the rest. - "You visited Australia in 2009 for one month"...My girlfriend had visited Australia but not with me. However she had complied with that visa completely. She stayed for 1 month (out of the 3 month visa validity) then returned to Thailand. Surely this was to her credit Whilst I cannot argue with the comments in paragraph 2, she was self employed but not working whilst I was with her.... And........she did have land but didn't tell me...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Mmm...the OP hasn't addressed the visit to Australia and the other "sponsor"? RAZZ EDIT - Read it wrong. Sorry. Edited June 4, 2011 by RAZZELL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Rawhood isn't the OP, Razz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAZZELL Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 not at all, just dont think we have abused the system and made it harder for all you 'real couples using the system to the letter' I have many frinds who have thai wives, some have settled here and some in Thailand... all im saying is some clarity in the time period rules would be helpful, you are right a visit visa can be for many reasons and one of them can be to stay with friends, family, partners. And we have applied immediately, seems you are having trouble with the english language too, if granted she would of been home for 3 months. So anyway lets agree to disagree, i dont want to get into an argument with you because you have been very helpful with your advice and I appreciate that... So we will wait and apply again for a visit visa, but only so she can have a holiday and go see big ben because i wouldnt want to be making it harder for all the real couples to not reside together on visit visa's Perhaps if you had a better understanding of the Immigration rules you might remove the chip off your shoulder. You want your gf to visit 50% of the time for 3 years, what about 4, 5, 6 years worth? You cannot be a perpetual tourist to the UK on Visit Visas. Rather like Thailand RAZZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAZZELL Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 (edited) Rawhood isn't the OP, Razz. EDIT - Read it wrong. As this was in 2009 Rawhod... I imagine the ECO is concerned about an....erherm..."overlap" of dates and bf's??? RAZZ Edited June 4, 2011 by RAZZELL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 And we have applied immediately, seems you are having trouble with the english language too, if granted she would of been home for 3 months. I assume you mean 'haven't.' Read my post again and you will see that I did not say that you had. Also read Spider0064's post for the proper way of doing things. I notice that you have not answered my question about the visit rules for your home country, wherever that may be. I can only assume that this is because it would be harder for you to do what you want there than it is in the UK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkockney Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 (edited) Bangkockney, it is true that they could travel to Thailand when the fiance visa expires, marry and then apply for settlement as a spouse. Which would mean two settlement applications at £810 each plus return flights to Thailand in a period of just over 6 months. Expensive way of doing it. Plus, the OP says that they are not yet ready to marry; what if they are still in that position at the end of the fiance visa? The chances of getting a visit visa immediately after the expiry of a fiance visa would, in my opinion, be next to zero. Cost is relative. What the OP actually says is this: we were both discussing possibly getting married but thought another 6 months together would be good before we made such a big step.... Having said that I would rather marry her a bit earlier than not see her at all for extended periods of time, 6 months apart every year is a bit much for us both to take !!! And: We wouldnt get married to obtain a visa, we would get married to be able to continue a relationship together, no serious relationship can survive with 6 months apart every year.... Clearly then, a fiance visa is highly applicable to their situation: Wants to be with GF quicker then VV allows Has discussed marriage with GF and both want to Ethically, they want to be sure they are marrying for the right reasons - a further period together would allow this They could make their minds up faster, allowing the opportunity of marrying in the UK during the 6 month period I stand by my comment; a fiance visa should not be thought of as a glorified, and easier to get, visit visa. I never suggested that a fiance visa should be used as a glorified visit visa, as the above clearly demonstrates. Edited June 4, 2011 by bangkockney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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