Dilema - What Degree To Get?

[aussiestyle1983]

Hi all,

I haven't posted in here for a while. I just finished my degree and am now faced with a dilema. Basically, using the same 24 units / classes that I completed, I can get one of two degrees. The same units make up both degrees so there won't be any difference in that regard. However, I have to choose between a degree from a better / higher ranked uni but with a dodgy sounding major (Macquarie Uni BA in Society, Life & Learning) or a degree from a slightly lesser ranked uni (Griffith Uni BA with a doubble major in Sociology and History & Politics). Macquarie is ranked about 8 in Australia and about 190 in the world whereas Griffith is about 11 in Australia and about 300 in the world. I know Thais crap on about whose degree is better based on what uni is ranked higher, so I'm not sure which one to end up with. I was initially going to go with the Macquarie BA but I don't like the name of the major and it does not really reflect all the politics / sociology units I did. I'm starting to lean towards the Griffith degree now. Even though the uni isn't ranked as high, I get a double major and both majors (Sociology + History & Politics) are two normal liberal arts majors. So, what would you or should I do? Go for the degree from the better ranked uni, or get the degree with the better major names? Remember, both transcripts will both list the same classes because I carefully chose my classes to qualify for each degree - now I just have to pick what one to get? What will matter more in Thailand and in the West (Australia), the University name or the major name? Thanks for any feedback and it's good to be back after 4 years of study...

[aussiestyle1983]

I forgot to add, the degree might be used when applying for teaching jobs in Thailand. I'm not sure of the exact degree requirements now coz I last taught there 4 years ago, but I'd like anyone's opinion as to what degree might look better on the CV or help in regards to employment should I go down that path again...

[JusMe]

First, note that dilemma is spelled with double m.

As this is a question about education, I don't feel hesitant to point this out.

Also, your posting is more a conundrum than a dilemma:

dilemma:noun - a situation in which a difficult choice has to be made between two or more alternatives, esp. equally undesirable ones

USAGE - Dilemma should be reserved for reference to a predicament in which a difficult choice must be made between undesirable alternatives

Your choice between the two universities or two degree designations isn't between two undesirable alternatives.

You have, perhaps, a conundrum. Outside Australia and perhaps some in the academic world, I doubt anyone would be concerned about the choices.

Edit for formatting

Edited June 3, 2011 by JusMe

[Scott]

I would go for the Sociology and History & Politics. The other one doesn't sound like a degree. As a person who interviews teachers, I would be quite suspect of the other degree and unfortunately, might be spending more time trying to figure out if it was real or not and not enough time seriously considering your employment.

[otherstuff1957]

Regarding the relative prestige of the two universities, well, it might matter in Australia, but most Thais don't know Stanford (my alma mater) from San Diego State. Whey they talk about good & bad universities, they are talking about Chula and Thammasat vs your average Ratchapat.

I'd go with the better sounding major if your goal is to work or stay in Thailand for a long time. However, if you think you might go back to Australia in a few years, then the Macquarie degree would be better for you in the long run.

[aussiestyle1983]

JusMe: Thank you ever so much for your reply, and for your lesson! How much do I owe you? Also, I like how someone as intelligent as you seem to be managed to type out such a informative post but forgot to add the source of the information. That almost amounts to Plagiarism Maybe next time you could be more useful if you just answered the original question, which you almost seemed to miss entirely in your quest to illustrate your knowledge of the English language (spelling / grammar Nazi is the term I have heard used in this forum here before to describe such a poster but I will not go that far)  I thought the question I asked was simple, obviously I was wrong…

Scott: Thank you for your reply. That is what I was thinking. What is the point in having a degree if people will scratch their heads at the sound of the major? And, I guess, two majors is better than one. It’s good to hear from someone who hires teachers – because that is when it will matter.

Otherstuff1957: Thank you for your reply. It seems that there is agreement between yourself and Scott that having two proper majors will be more useful than a degree from a slightly better ranked university. In regards to the following quote you made:

“However, if you think you might go back to Australia in a few years, then the Macquarie degree would be better for you in the long run.”

I am in Australia now. I used to teach in Thailand and returned to Australia to study and get a degree just in case I return to Thailand in the future to teach – which is probable. In Australia, the name of the university does not matter. In fact, I the majors matter more here. I just thought that would be more of an issue in Thailand. When fellow Asian teachers I used to work with ask me “will your degree be from a famous university?” – that is why I wonder if it would be better to get the degree from the better university. All though Macquarie University graduates get the highest starting salaries for their first job after graduation in Australia, I don’t intend to use my degree here. It is only a backup option in case I return to Thailand and find getting a WP / TL more difficult than last time when my TEFL was enough.

Any more input / ideas would be useful.

Also, I forgot to mention, the GPA on each degree will be slightly different because the GPA will take into account only the classes I did at that university – the classes I took at the other university will all be granted as credit from another provider and will not be considered in the GPA. The Macquarie GPA will be 3.87 / 4.0 and the Griffith GPA will be 6.25 / 7.0

[Mooner]

@aussiestyle. I do believe the source of jusme was a dictionary. I think it was ok to correct you( you being a English teacher) don't think of it being too critical! We have all learnt something!

Congratulations on passing your degree! I remember you posting before venting your anger on teaching in Thailand. Why the change of heart?

Good luck in the future mate?

P.s. I'm not very good at English! Feel free to correct my mistakes!

[Scott]

Actually, no it's not OK to correct grammar and spelling in the forum, unless a teacher is specifically asking for assistance with grammar or spelling.

Doing so, is off-topic and quickly derail a topic. Usually, such posts are deleted, however, the poster did have advice in the post and thus it was allowed to stand.

It is an internet forum and there are many variables. Some posters are not computer savvy and some aren't good with a keyboard. Some use small mobile phones as well.

Not everyone posting here is an English teacher. We have those who teach subjects such as math, science etc. We also have people who are non-native speakers, including Japanese, Chinese and French teachers.

There is limited time after the post gets posted to edit it.

Oh, and yes, as the previous poster said, congratulations Aussiesyle on completing your education!

[Rumpole]

I wouldn't make your decision based on what you think may be more acceptable in Thailand. Plans change, people change, places and situations change. 3 or 4 years from now you may not even be in Thailand, or you may be there and wishing to leave (quite a few in this boat, IMO).

Edited June 4, 2011 by Rumpole

[aussiestyle1983]

I would not say I have had a change of heart about my feelings towards many things in Thailand - I just decided to get the degree long ago because I am still young and though it would come in handy one day. Also, given that my wife is Thai, if we ever live there again and I need to work, the degree will help out. I got the liberal arts degree because I thought it would be a little more flexible and I could always study more and build on it in case I did not want to teach - a strictly education degree limits your career choices more from what I have heard.

It seems that others are also telling me to get the degree with the double major because it will look better than a degree with one major. Maybe if I consider that I'm not sure what I want to do or will end up doing, at least a degree with two recognised majors will look better on my CV than a degree with a dodgy sounding major that does not reflect what I actually did at uni...

Edited June 5, 2011 by aussiestyle1983

[Scott]

One inflammatory remark removed.

Please stay on topic. The OP has asked a relatively simple question.

No need for discussion of spelling, grammar or the state of education in Australia.

[Xangsamhua]

First of all, congratulations Aussiestyle on finishing your studies. I remember you considering your options on this forum. Four years already!!

I agree that "Society, Life and Learning" sounds a bit vague, though the course content covers topics of significance in sociology and public administration. A double major in (1) Sociology and (2) History and Politics sounds more substantial, though it could be equally as wide-ranging. (I note that some of the units in the Sociology courses at both universities are the same.) What were your sub-majors/minors for the Macquarie degree?

I really wonder though, if you were presenting your testamur and transcripts to the MoE here, they would care whether Macquarie is about 200 in world rankings and Griffith about 300. Both are legitimate and respectable universities. Even around 300 is not a bad ranking in world lists considering that Chula and Mahidol come in at 220 (QS rankings 2010) and 323 on the same ranking model, and they are well ahead of the field (including Thammasat) in Thailand.

In fact, I would doubt anyone in Australia would care either unless you were applying for a job where the old school tie mattered. I can't think of any situation in any of the three countries and two states I've worked in where people have taken a scrap of notice that a couple of my qualifications have come from a highly ranked university and a couple from lowly (or unranked?) ones. They've simply been interested in whether I'm qualified for the position I'm applying for, or to be licensed, as the case may be.

I think I'd go for the Griffith double major to be put on the transcript. I assume the testamur will simply say "Bachelor of Arts" or "Bachelor of Arts (Honours)" without reference to the majors, though practice may have changed since I got my own BA many years ago.

Good luck for the future. I hope your new qualification will open many doors for you.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[aussiestyle1983]

Xangsamhua: Thanks for your useful reply. It's good to see the same names in here that I used to chat to over 4 years ago now...

There are no minors so to speak, just two majors with the Griffith degree and one major with the Macquarie degree. A lot of units / classes overlapped as core unis for both degrees - I was unsure which one to get when I started so I carefully selected my units so I could qualify for both then decide later. There are 2 Education electives (education psychology and education history), about 4 philosophy electives, and a few classes in SE Asia, Terrorism in Intl Politics, and one in English writing (not that my quick spelling in here reflects that). There are more education units available now, but when I started, there were only 2 so that is all the education units I could do without altering the degree pathway.

But Thanks to all the good advice in here, I am really leaning towards Griffith. Like you said, the double major would show / reflect what I actually did and am qualified in. I don't need to use it to prove I went to a specific uni because of ties, so that won't matter. I 'd rather say to a potential employer 'I have a double major in sociology and history & politics' than 'don't laugh, my major is something you would have never heard of before...'

I wish I could have done more education electives or a minor in EDU, but when I started it wasn't available. Only the 2 EDU classes I did and the one in English writing were relevant to teaching english. OUA now offer a Bachelor degree in primary education through Curtain uni (I think) which is good.

[RAZZELL]

Interesting post...

I think most people in the UK are more concerned where you studied and not what subject...

There is definitely a "pecking order"...Oxbridge, Redbrick (Old established), Newer Universities, Modern New Universities (Ex-Polytechnics).

So, if for example you applied for a job in the UK, a quick google would tell an prospective employer that Macquarie is about 200 in world rankings and Griffith about 300.

Being a snob I'd go for the more "prestigious" name

RAZZ

Edited June 21, 2011 by RAZZELL

[Phatcharanan]

I think most people in the UK are more concerned where you studied and not what subject...

There is definitely a "pecking order"...Oxbridge, Redbrick (Old established), Newer Universities, Modern New Universities (Ex-Polytechnics).

So, if for example you applied for a job in the UK, a quick google would tell an prospective employer that Macquarie is about 200 in world rankings and Griffith about 300.

Being a snob I'd go for the more "prestigious" name

RAZZ

In reality, that situation would never occur. The OP will be providing only 1 degree, hence no one will be cross-referencing with any other 'un-named uni'.

Also, any prospective employer is more likely to be impressed with the double major in more relevant subjects as opposed to a degree in errrrrrr 'Society, Life.....' etc.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Phatcharanan

[RAZZELL]

I think most people in the UK are more concerned where you studied and not what subject...

There is definitely a "pecking order"...Oxbridge, Redbrick (Old established), Newer Universities, Modern New Universities (Ex-Polytechnics).

So, if for example you applied for a job in the UK, a quick google would tell an prospective employer that Macquarie is about 200 in world rankings and Griffith about 300.

Being a snob I'd go for the more "prestigious" name

RAZZ

In reality, that situation would never occur. The OP will be providing only 1 degree, hence no one will be cross-referencing with any other 'un-named uni'.

Also, any prospective employer is more likely to be impressed with the double major in more relevant subjects as opposed to a degree in errrrrrr 'Society, Life.....' etc.

Of course you're right they wouldn't know.

But a "Double major"? Who really cares? All degrees are "supposed" to be judged to a common standard. Maths better than Sociology? Law better than History? It's all nonsense

As the OP wants(?) to be an English teacher he'd need postgraduate qualifications in that area which then would be relevant to any prospective employer. His first degree is just a means to an end.

RAZZ

More degrees than a boiling kettle

Edited June 22, 2011 by RAZZELL

[culicine]

I graduated from Griffith and like the atmosphere there and campus. That was back in 1991 though. As others mentioned, employers in Thailand won't really care from where you graduated as they don't really know most western universities. Just a BA / BSc will do. Even in the west, employers will care more about your experience / skills that where you graduated from.

However it might be worthwhile doing a GradDipEd after you graduate. That will make it easier to get the teaching licence (I did mine by distance through UNE). There isn't any sign of the requirement changing here anytime soon. It also opens doors to some of the more desirable teaching jobs here (just get some western teaching experience - which I don't have so makes getting to top job difficult).

[Xangsamhua]

I graduated from Griffith and like the atmosphere there and campus. That was back in 1991 though. As others mentioned, employers in Thailand won't really care from where you graduated as they don't really know most western universities. Just a BA / BSc will do. Even in the west, employers will care more about your experience / skills that where you graduated from.

However it might be worthwhile doing a GradDipEd after you graduate. That will make it easier to get the teaching licence (I did mine by distance through UNE). There isn't any sign of the requirement changing here anytime soon. It also opens doors to some of the more desirable teaching jobs here (just get some western teaching experience - which I don't have so makes getting to top job difficult).

Good advice, Culicine, if the OP is looking to a long-term career in Education (not only teaching). On the international scene a Grad Dip Ed/Dip Ed/PGCE/MEd will open up good opportunities in quality international schools. I see USQ have a number of these courses online and Australians (and New Zealanders?), even though living overseas, should be able to pay at Australian resident rates.

Need to be a bit careful though, e.g. not sure if the Australian PGCEs qualify for teacher registration in Australia - unlike British PGCEs. It may be necessary to do a Grad Dip Ed or Dip Ed - both PG1 or PG2 qualifications in Australia. I think a PG1 qualification still qualifies you for registration there. Being registered in your home country meets teacher licensing needs everywhere I think, depending on language requirements.

[aussiestyle1983]

It's good to come back after 2 weeks in Honkers and find this thread going again...

I will go for the Griffith degree, because as about 95% of people I have consulted including those in here, a double major with 2 proper majors from a uni ranked only 2 or 3 places lower in Australia and 100 lower in the world versus a degree from a slightly better uni but with a dodgy sounding major could do more career wise...

As for post-grad study. I was accepted into UOW Wollongong Post-grad cert in Education (TEFL or TESOL) at the same time I was considering starting this degree. They accepted me based on my 2 years of full time TEFL teaching in Thailand. However, the Grad Cert was only 4 classes / units and equv to only 6 months of full time study. I then found this degree through OUA. I asked language schools in Bangkok what they would think if a potential employee came to them with eith a 3 year BA in any field or just a 6 month Grad Cert in Education but no Bachelors degree. All schools I consulted told me they would take the BA first because it is evidence of more time in university, whereas skiping the Bachelors first and doing the Grad Cert, allthought in Edu and thus relevant, it would look like a short cut.

Do you think it was the right decision to do a 3 year BA that can be used as a foundation for anything or do you think it would have been better to just jump straight into the Grad Cert? The Grad Cert becomes a Grad Dip after 6 classes / units (2 more) and then into a full Masters in Education after 8 classes / units (another 2). Even if I got the Masters in Education, it is only a 1 year full time degree based on the study load so I still think a 3 year BA might do more for me.

I am still thinking about slowly doing the Grad Cert, then 2 more units to get the Grad Dip, the another 2 to get the MEd. After all, a Masters degree in Education with a TEFL / TESOL major would really help out career wise there.

Still, do you think I should have just done that given I have the chance to go straight into the Grad Cert, or, was it a more wise move to get a BA first?

I just think that the BA can be used to help get into any career and be used as a building block, where as anything in Education, post-grad or under-grad, is really only good if I want to teach... Nonetheless, if I keep studying, 4 years full time study total for a BA and a Masters in Education (TEFL) is still no too bad...

[Xangsamhua]

It's good to come back after 2 weeks in Honkers and find this thread going again...

I will go for the Griffith degree, because as about 95% of people I have consulted including those in here, a double major with 2 proper majors from a uni ranked only 2 or 3 places lower in Australia and 100 lower in the world versus a degree from a slightly better uni but with a dodgy sounding major could do more career wise...

As for post-grad study. I was accepted into UOW Wollongong Post-grad cert in Education (TEFL or TESOL) at the same time I was considering starting this degree. They accepted me based on my 2 years of full time TEFL teaching in Thailand. However, the Grad Cert was only 4 classes / units and equv to only 6 months of full time study. I then found this degree through OUA. I asked language schools in Bangkok what they would think if a potential employee came to them with eith a 3 year BA in any field or just a 6 month Grad Cert in Education but no Bachelors degree. All schools I consulted told me they would take the BA first because it is evidence of more time in university, whereas skiping the Bachelors first and doing the Grad Cert, allthought in Edu and thus relevant, it would look like a short cut.

Do you think it was the right decision to do a 3 year BA that can be used as a foundation for anything or do you think it would have been better to just jump straight into the Grad Cert? The Grad Cert becomes a Grad Dip after 6 classes / units (2 more) and then into a full Masters in Education after 8 classes / units (another 2). Even if I got the Masters in Education, it is only a 1 year full time degree based on the study load so I still think a 3 year BA might do more for me.

I am still thinking about slowly doing the Grad Cert, then 2 more units to get the Grad Dip, the another 2 to get the MEd. After all, a Masters degree in Education with a TEFL / TESOL major would really help out career wise there.

Still, do you think I should have just done that given I have the chance to go straight into the Grad Cert, or, was it a more wise move to get a BA first?

I just think that the BA can be used to help get into any career and be used as a building block, where as anything in Education, post-grad or under-grad, is really only good if I want to teach... Nonetheless, if I keep studying, 4 years full time study total for a BA and a Masters in Education (TEFL) is still no too bad...

I'm surprised UoW offered you a place in the Grad Cert program if you didn't have an undergraduate degree, despite your prior experience. The Grad Cert is a postgraduate program, after all. Anyway, you were wise to do the BA. The Grad Cert isn't worth much by itself. It's just a first step in getting a professional qualification.

When I employed people in Victoria and Queensland for TESOL in the 80s the career qualification in this field (as in Special Ed at the time) was either a BEd TESOL or a degree plus Grad Dip in the field. Later, in the 90s, the Grad Cert came along and the Grad Dip began to be replaced by the MEd, but the grad dip could still be attained in some places if someone dropped out three quarters of the way through the Masters. We accepted the grad cert as an initial TESOL qualification and could employ someone who had it as long as they were already a registered teacher (i.e. they already had an undergraduate teaching degree or another degree plus Dip Ed/Grad Dip Ed).

Now you're on the credentials road, if you're looking for a career qualification, a Masters is definitely the way to go, and for registration as a teacher it'll probably need some practicum (practice teaching) units in it. So, for example, a Masters in Applied Linguistics, although it is the discipline and has the content on which TESOL is based, may not by itself make you registrable as a teacher. However, an MEd in the TESOL strand includes a practicum unit (unless things have changed). You may need to check in whichever state you wish to seek registration as a teacher whether the course needs a practicum unit as well.

Good luck. I'd be interested to know if my advice is still current.