What Evidence Is Required Of Marriage Arrangements?

[DemonNite]

Hi all,

I've been looking in to all the requirements for the correct visa to get for my fiancé and it all seemed fairly straight forward until I read the following:

What evidence is required of marriage arrangements?

The ECO needs to be satisfied that it is intended that a marriage in the UK will take place.

The law relating to marriage in England and Wales does not allow for any arrangements to be made with a Registrar until the foreign national has arrived in the UK. Of itself, a booking at a Register Office or church is not proof that a marriage will take place.

The ECO can reasonably expect the couple to have made some tentative plans for the wedding. Any evidence that may be available that wedding arrangements are in hand may help in this respect.

The confusing part is the underlined bit above... Me and my fiancé (who is currently in Thailand) wish to register our marriage here in the UK but will wait until later in the year to hold the ceremony over in Thailand (before returning back to the UK to settle down).

We don't have any intentions to hold the ceremony here in the UK. For evidence of our intentions, we planned to use all the booking and enquiries we will make in Thailand but this does not satisfy their requirement of "intended that a marriage in the UK will take place." I also noticed the extra part where they say a booking at the Register Office in the UK is not enough too.

It's confused me a bit and would like to know which route/visa would be more ideal for us. Ideally, we would not want to register in Thailand as we do have plans to come back after the ceremony to settle down here in the UK.

Can anyone help us on this tricky topic?

[7by7]

Please clarify; I think that you are saying that you are going to actually register your marriage in the UK at a registry office and then hold the ceremonial marriage at some later date in Thailand. Is this correct? (Remember that a legal, registered marriage in the UK is recognized in Thailand and vice versa.) Also that it is your intention to live in the UK together, correct?

What type of UK visa are you initially seeking for your fiancé?

A fiance visa is a type of settlement visa which lasts for 6 months. During that time you legally marry in the UK and she applies for Further Leave to Remain, which lasts for 2 years, after which she applies for Indefinite Leave to Remain.

If she leaves the UK before she has FLR she must return to the UK and submit her FLR application before her initial 6 month visa expires, otherwise she would not have a valid entry clearance and so would have to apply for a new settlement visa as your spouse.

A marriage visit visa is a type of visit visa that will allow her to enter the UK as a visitor and marry. It is valid for 6 months and cannot be converted to settlement in the UK; she would have to return to Thailand ater the marriage and apply for settlement as your spouse. This lasts 27 moinths and after she has been in the UK for 24 months she can apply for ILR.

One thing to consider is that the cost of a fiance visa is £810 (payable in Baht) and FLR is £550 by post (expect at least a 3 months wait!) or £850 if applying in person for a same day decision; whereas the cost of a marriage visit visa is £76 (payable in Baht) and then the spouse visa is, again, £810 (payable in Baht). If you are going to be returning to Thailand anyway shortly after the marriage, the latter may be the way to go.

As the guidance you have quoted says, you cannot give notice to marry at a registry office until she is in the UK, as both parties have to attend to do so. However, as the guidance also says, the ECO will expect to see some tentative arrangements outlined in your sponsor's letter; such as when and where you intend to marry.

NB; all fees quoted are the current fees and subject to change.

[DemonNite]

Thanks for the useful reply. I have a few questions about what you said though...

Please clarify; I think that you are saying that you are going to actually register your marriage in the UK at a registry office and then hold the ceremonial marriage at some later date in Thailand. Is this correct? (Remember that a legal, registered marriage in the UK is recognized in Thailand and vice versa.) Also that it is your intention to live in the UK together, correct?

You are indeed correct about the above. The plan is to invite her over the summer to UK to stay with me, and while we are together we could sort out the marriage register before her 6 months is up. Once that is up she would return back to Thailand where I would either follow her there, or meet her there shortly after to do the ceremony. After the ceremony she would follow me back to the UK. I do not wish to return back to the UK after the ceremony without her.

What type of UK visa are you initially seeking for your fiancé?

I was initially seeking the fiancé visa but was concerned/confused about the evidence of a marriage in the UK. I would not have any evidence of a UK marriage as it is taking place in Thailand. This is what led me to these forums for help.

A marriage visit visa is a type of visit visa that will allow her to enter the UK as a visitor and marry. It is valid for 6 months and cannot be converted to settlement in the UK; she would have to return to Thailand ater the marriage and apply for settlement as your spouse. This lasts 27 moinths and after she has been in the UK for 24 months she can apply for ILR.

Would there be a period of time where she would remain in Thailand while we are waiting for the result? How long could that last for?

I am aware that a marriage in Thailand is legal over here in the UK but would ideally like to sort it all out here considering we will be settling down here.

[jasonr3255]

Thanks for the useful reply. I have a few questions about what you said though...

Please clarify; I think that you are saying that you are going to actually register your marriage in the UK at a registry office and then hold the ceremonial marriage at some later date in Thailand. Is this correct? (Remember that a legal, registered marriage in the UK is recognized in Thailand and vice versa.) Also that it is your intention to live in the UK together, correct?

You are indeed correct about the above. The plan is to invite her over the summer to UK to stay with me, and while we are together we could sort out the marriage register before her 6 months is up. Once that is up she would return back to Thailand where I would either follow her there, or meet her there shortly after to do the ceremony. After the ceremony she would follow me back to the UK. I do not wish to return back to the UK after the ceremony without her.

What type of UK visa are you initially seeking for your fiancé?

I was initially seeking the fiancé visa but was concerned/confused about the evidence of a marriage in the UK. I would not have any evidence of a UK marriage as it is taking place in Thailand. This is what led me to these forums for help.

A marriage visit visa is a type of visit visa that will allow her to enter the UK as a visitor and marry. It is valid for 6 months and cannot be converted to settlement in the UK; she would have to return to Thailand ater the marriage and apply for settlement as your spouse. This lasts 27 moinths and after she has been in the UK for 24 months she can apply for ILR.

Would there be a period of time where she would remain in Thailand while we are waiting for the result? How long could that last for?

I am aware that a marriage in Thailand is legal over here in the UK but would ideally like to sort it all out here considering we will be settling down here.

May I ask why you don't Marry at Your Local Amphur Office In Thailand First, It is only a signiture in a book ? You are then legally Married under British Law. You can then apply for a Settlement Visa in Thailand much more straight forward me thinks. You can then do the Thai ceremony at a later date with all the trimmings. Although, Once you have Registered your Marriage in Thailand it can not be re-registered in the UK.It can however be recorded with GRO and the original Thai Marriage certificate along with a certified translation can be deposited with GRO and Certified copies can be obtained for future reference and legal proof.Hope this helps

Regards

Jason

Edited June 5, 2011 by jasonr3255

[7by7]

I was initially seeking the fiancé visa but was concerned/confused about the evidence of a marriage in the UK. I would not have any evidence of a UK marriage as it is taking place in Thailand.

No; the marriage is not taking place in Thailand. Following your plan means that the marriage will take place in the UK. The ceremonial marriage is not a legal marriage in Thailand and so is also not a legal marriage in the UK. As Jason says, the legal marriage in Thailand is the ampur registration.

If you register your marriage at a UK registry office then is is a legal marriage in both the UK and Thailand, and the evidence of such will be your marriage certificate.

As for what evidence to submit with her visa application that the marriage will take place once she is in the UK, then as I said before, you cannot provide concrete evidence as both of you need to attend the registry office to give notice of marriage and book the wedding, and obviously you cannot do that until she is in the UK. What you can do, though, is state in your sponsor's letter what plans you have made, e.g. when and where you intend to marry once she is in the UK.

Jason's idea of marrying in Thailand is another option to add to the two I mentioned before, and this would save a visa fee. The choice though is, of course, yours to make.

I would take issue with Jason, though, on the worth of depositing a Thai marriage certificate with the GRO in the UK. Doing this does not add any legitimacy to a marriage and neither does it record it; all it means is a copy of your Thai marriage certificate is on file in the UK should you wish to do obtain a copy without going back to the ampur where you married. Most people don't bother.

Obvioulsy she would have to remain in Thailand while awaiting the result of her visa application, whatever visa she eventually applies for. How long depends upon demand, and for settlement applications the wait can be as long as 12 weeks!

[DemonNite]

May I ask why you don't Marry at Your Local Amphur Office In Thailand First, It is only a signiture in a book ? You are then legally Married under British Law. You can then apply for a Settlement Visa in Thailand much more straight forward me thinks. You can then do the Thai ceremony at a later date with all the trimmings. Although, Once you have Registered your Marriage in Thailand it can not be re-registered in the UK.It can however be recorded with GRO and the original Thai Marriage certificate along with a certified translation can be deposited with GRO and Certified copies can be obtained for future reference and legal proof.Hope this helps

Regards

Jason

Thanks for the advice Jason.

We did consider having our marriage registered in Thailand as it would mean one less visa to deal with. But my fiancé did not want to register there and would like to register here in the UK. What advantages or disadvantages would there be in the long run (when settled down in the UK) if we registered in Thailand instead?

No; the marriage is not taking place in Thailand. Following your plan means that the marriage will take place in the UK. The ceremonial marriage is not a legal marriage in Thailand and so is also not a legal marriage in the UK. As Jason says, the legal marriage in Thailand is the ampur registration.

ah that was my mistake when typing it up. What I wanted to say was that the marriage was taking place in the UK but because the ceremony was taking place in Thailand, most of the evidence would be for Thailand and not a marriage in the UK (as we don't plan to have a ceremony in the UK). I am hoping that all the plans for the ceremony in Thailand would be fine as evidence.

Hope that clears that bit up.

Edited June 5, 2011 by DemonNite

[7by7]

What advantages or disadvantages would there be in the long run (when settled down in the UK) if we registered in Thailand instead?

The difference between a fiance and a spouse visa are as I explained above. The advantage of marrying in Thailand and a spouse visa is this will save the FLR fee mentioned above. Plus, a fiance cannot work until they have FLR, a spouse can work immediately.

What I wanted to say was that the marriage was taking place in the UK but because the ceremony was taking place in Thailand, most of the evidence would be for Thailand and not a marriage in the UK (as we don't plan to have a ceremony in the UK). I am hoping that all the plans for the ceremony in Thailand would be fine as evidence.

The ECO will be looking for evidence that the UK marriage will be taking place during the life of the fiance visa. You must submit whatever evidence you have of whatever plans you have made for the UK marriage with her fiance visa application.

The only possible use evidence of the Thai ceremonial marriage could have is as proof of your relationship.

[theoldgit]

We did consider having our marriage registered in Thailand as it would mean one less visa to deal with. But my fiancé did not want to register there and would like to register here in the UK. What advantages or disadvantages would there be in the long run (when settled down in the UK) if we registered in Thailand instead?

By saying registering you seem to be confusing the issue, you are getting married wherever you do it, not "registering a marriage".

If you marry at the Amphur you are legally married in Thailand, the UK, and in fact anywhere in the world, there are no disadvantages in marrying in Thailand. There are no advantages, for you or your wife, in marrying in the UK over Thailand, and it offers neither of you any extra protection.

As Jason and 7by7 indicate some people deposit a copy of their Thai Marriage Certificate with the GRO, as they point out there is no requirement to do so, it doesn't make you more married and it offers neither of you any extra protection. I personally think it an unnecessary expense.

At the end of the day it's up to you two where you get married, but it's certainly easier in your local Amphur.

Edited June 5, 2011 by theoldgit

[bobrussell]

I sent copies of emails to and from the local Registrar. This included confirmation of an appointment made to give notice to marry at the Registry Office. This seemed enough for our application.

The first stage with a registry office marriage is to convince the Registrar that it is a genuine marriage and that both parties are entitled to marry. Confirmation of an appointment may not be 'legal' proof that a wedding is to take place but helps. if you are arranging a hotel for a reception provide a copy of the booking.

It is only evidence that you plan to get married not proof!

[VisasPlus]

There cannot, logically, be any "proof" that you will marry. Lots of things can happen between arranging a marriage and the actual ceremony. You must satisfy the visa officer that, " on the balance of probabilities", a marriage will take place. As stated previously, there are various ways to tip the balance in your favour

[7by7]

Some posts have been removed.

Speculation on the morals and motives of the OP's fiance is not only off topic, but insulting to both him and her.

Any further posts on those lines will earn the author a holiday.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Wedding bookings seebelow -AECIP83/03 states:

"A reminder has now issued to all our offices overseas (under referenceAECIP 83/03). The relevant section of this AECIP reads as follows:

"1. there has been some confusion over whether ECOs [Entry ClearanceOfficers] should be asking for confirmation of wedding bookings at a registryoffice. This should not be happening. Registrars cannot make arrangements untilthe foreign national has arrived in the UK.

"2. ECMs [Managers] are therefore asked to re-acquaint themselves andtheir staff with the procedures outlined in DSP 13.9".

The ECO is aware you cannot book a wedding the fact you have enquired already demonstrates you are making tentative enquiries.

By paying 42500 baht I would class that as a tentative enquiry also .

Edited June 10, 2011 by ThaiVisaExpress

[maybefitz]

Wedding bookings seebelow -AECIP83/03 states:

"A reminder has now issued to all our offices overseas (under referenceAECIP 83/03). The relevant section of this AECIP reads as follows:

"1. there has been some confusion over whether ECOs [Entry ClearanceOfficers] should be asking for confirmation of wedding bookings at a registryoffice. This should not be happening. Registrars cannot make arrangements untilthe foreign national has arrived in the UK.

"2. ECMs [Managers] are therefore asked to re-acquaint themselves andtheir staff with the procedures outlined in DSP 13.9".

The ECO is aware you cannot book a wedding the fact you have enquired already demonstrates you are making tentative enquiries.

By paying 42500 baht I would class that as a tentative enquiry also .

[maybefitz]

Why not do as I did>? Married at the Amphur office in Chiang Mai, 8 years ago. My wife accompanied me to UK for 4 months the following year; and we had another marriage at a Registry Office in UK, So now we both hold double marriage certificates.

The advantage for my wife is that she has a much easier access to claim UK widow's pension rights on my occupational pension, in the event of my demise. This has already been notified to my occupational pension authority by sending them our UK

marriage certificate; and they have acknowledged her rights. I add, I live in Thailand now, and have no intention of returning to the UK, ever. I intend to delay the event of her claiming widow's pension for as long as possible - I suggest that my life here

in Thailand is contributing to this delaying of the inevitable....

[theoldgit]

^^^^^^

I'm not an expert on such matters, but how did you marry in the UK when you were already married?

Did you notify The Registrar in the UK that you were already married?

[maybefitz]

^^^^^^

I'm not an expert on such matters, but how did you marry in the UK when you were already married?

Did you notify The Registrar in the UK that you were already married?

Yes, No problem with the Registrar in Louth, Lincs.

[7by7]

The subject of marrying twice has been debated many times on this forum, expert legal advice has said that it cannot be done, as have several UK registrars. However, other UK registrars have said that it is possible and have married couples in the UK who were already legally married.

I note, maybefitz, that your double marriage was 8 years ago. The FCO website these days says

You are unable to register an overseas marriage/civil partnership in the UK. As a general rule, as long as your marriage/civil partnership is valid and legal in the country in which it took place, it is likely to be recognised in the UK.

However, this still doesn't confirm whether a couple can have a UK marriage as well as a foreign one or not. My personal feeling is to go with the expert legal advice and that registrars who will register a marriage for a couple who are already legally married are making a mistake.

Unfortunately, attempts to get a definitive response from the Home Office, FCO, GRO etc. have all simply given me replies similar to the quote above; i.e. they all say that marrying again is not necessary, but they wont say whether or not it is legally possible!

However, it is up to each couple. If you can find a registrar who will marry you even though you are already married and want to pay the extra then go for it; but remember that so doing does not confer any advantages or rights one either husband or wife, in either the UK or Thailand that they do not already have from their legal Thai marriage.