Thai Immigration Tightens Requirements For Retirement Visa Extensions

[jfchandler]

The fact the same things like skimming and theft can happen elsewhere is irrelevant. The relevant fact is how Thai banks deal with fraud and theft incidents when they arise... Do they protect the account holder who has done nothing wrong, or they don't. To a much greater extent than elsewhere, Thai banks don't.

I hope you take great comfort in knowing that your signature is protecting your Thai bank account. The thieves who stole my debit card certainly didn't have my name. They didn't look like me. They didn't have any ID with a photo matching the name on my card. But that didn't stop them from ringing up $1000 in purchases with merchants at Silom Complex, not some backalley shop, in less than one hour.

Had it been a Thai bank card, do you think my Thai bank would have refunded the $1000 U.S. to my account. I seriously doubt it, since the transactions had occurred in the less than one hour it took me to get home from the Skytrain and call my bank.

And that's leaving aside the issue of fraud by bank employees themselves. In one of the news reports I've read involving THAI (not farang) bank customers in such a case, the bank's response was to tell the victims to file a police report, and that the bank wasn't responsible for the criminal conduct of its employees who had been draining funds out of bank customers' accounts. Really???

[Svante]

There is no requirement that you have the funds in a Thai bank, just that it is in a bank IN Thailand, so use whatever trustworthy bank from your home country you can find, surely the protection rules applies here also, or at least they do not want to be exposed with fraud. Thai banking laws are somewhat stricter to foreign banks operating here.

[jfchandler]

There is no requirement that you have the funds in a Thai bank, just that it is in a bank IN Thailand, so use whatever trustworthy bank from your home country you can find, surely the protection rules applies here also, or at least they do not want to be exposed with fraud. Thai banking laws are somewhat stricter to foreign banks operating here.

You're partly correct and partly wrong in your comments above.

The Thai immigration regulation does indeed reference retirement deposits in a bank IN Thailand as opposed to a Thai bank. So presumably that would allow someone to place their 800,000 baht retirement qualifying amount with a bank like HSBC, which is not a Thai bank but does operate here.

But you're not correct in saying that "surely the protection rules applies here also."

The same consumer and fraud protections that would apply to an HSBC account in the U.S. DO NOT apply to an HSBC account in Thailand. The account in the U.S. is governed by U.S. banking laws. The HSBC account in Thailand is governed by Thai banking laws (or the absence of them, in the case of consumer protections).

As an example of that, I talked above about the example of Thai credit card policies on fraudulent charges. Indeed, in the other TV thread, two of the banks that we found those policies regarding were HSBC and CitiBank -- both non-Thai banks. Both had Thai card policies saying cardholders are responsible for anything charged until/up to 5 minutes after they report the card stolen. If you had credit cards from either of those banks issued in the U.S., entirely different and much more consumer friendly protections would apply.

This is Thailand, not your or my home country. The same rules don't apply.

Here's the link regarding HSBC's Thailand credit card fraud/loss policy:

And there's the basically same policy listed by Siam Commercial Bank (a real Thai bank):

Edited June 17, 2011 by jfchandler

[Mamasun]

I don't think Immigration requested the change in format. That change was a natural fall-out from the request for embassies to further assure their income certification procedures. Understandable why they would not want (or have) the resources to do Immigration's bidding...

You got that right. The English translation of the explanation sent to their citizens confirms it. Puzzle solved.

The Swiss embassy has always only authenticated the signature and I suspect most embassies did and continue to do the same. Of the few that confirmed the income in the letter, the Dutch embassy now will no longer do so.

I don't understand..the Swiss Ambassy gave me letter only with a proof from my pension in Switzerland..that its mean, that every year I need to contact my pension casse in Switzerland who send me here in Thailand a letter who say how much they pay every year...and then I send that to the Ambassy who send me back this letter...with an attestation who say how much i have by year !

Other thing, I have post 2 months ago something about the immigration in Nakhon si Thammarat... I was in stress because went there for my 90 days and saw a paper who was asking the people with retirement visa to show prove of pension in bank and also pictures of family here in Thailand...well for the second part sound that they mixte with the marriage extension...but after reding this post I thinck that the first one asking for prove are going to be ask next time...well since april i have make transfert of my pension into my Thai bank...to be sure if they ask me or not ( 500 bahts every transfert ! )

I need to make my 90 days again in july (will see if the paper still there ! ) and then 3 weeks later my retirement extension...!...

[jfchandler]

The money in the Thai bank reference you saw probably was regarding the other way of satisfying the income requirement for retirement extensions -- having 800,000 baht on deposit in a bank in Thailand.

That's an entirely separate matter from satisfying the income requirement via at least 65,000 baht per month in income. Thus far, there's been no requirement to show/prove or have those monthly income funds brought into Thailand.

[Mamasun]

The money in the Thai bank reference you saw probably was regarding the other way of satisfying the income requirement for retirement extensions -- having 800,000 baht on deposit in a bank in Thailand.

That's an entirely separate matter from satisfying the income requirement via at least 65,000 baht per month in income. Thus far, there's been no requirement to show/prove or have those monthly income funds brought into Thailand.

No ,was not for the 800 000 bahts was for money from pension every month : see here post 15 and...http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/452882-retirement-visa-qualifications/

[jfchandler]

i am in schock...today I was in Nakhon si Thammarat for my 90 days....and I see a paper with new requirements for retirement visa !!

1 : need to have photo of you and your Thai family outside and inside your house !

2 : need to show that your farang pension is every month in a thai bank...

when i say i am a woman alone they have tell me I cannot stay in Thailand I need to have a Thai family !!!!!

wow It's mean that every farang on retirement visa if they don't have Thai family...go OUT

well I am so lost now , I don^t know what to thinck or how ..I am going to manage that situation...

I am on building my house here...I am so sad

I've read your post that you pointed to in the other TV thread... and it really makes no sense...

If the message was really about retirement extensions, how could they be talking about "photo of you and your Thai family outside and inside your house"?

That is the kind of documentation that might sometimes be requested in connection with a marriage-based extension... even though you weren't applying for that.

Either you've misunderstood what occurred, or the local office in question went off on a binge.... No such provisions are being applied by Thai Immigration for retirement extensions.

The Immigration rules are public and translated into English in various places, including here on ThaiVisa. And those rules clearly spell out the eligibility requirement for the various kinds of extensions... And they state nothing like what you have recounted.

Edited June 17, 2011 by jfchandler

[Titoyohn]

Can someone tell me: Is me as Farang allowed to rent out a house or condo and use the money for Immigration purpose?

[Maestro]

I don't understand..the Swiss Ambassy gave me letter only with a proof from my pension in Switzerland..that its mean, that every year I need to contact my pension casse in Switzerland who send me here in Thailand a letter who say how much they pay every year...and then I send that to the Ambassy who send me back this letter...with an attestation who say how much i have by year ! ...

Interesting. This should keep immigration happy. I wonder what the embassy's letter looks like. They don't seem to have a specimen of it on their website.

[Jingthing]

Can someone tell me: Is me as Farang allowed to rent out a house or condo and use the money for Immigration purpose?

Good question. I would say not officially allowed or disallowed but a grey area as some may see being a landlord as working in Thailand and you can't work in Thailand on a retirement extension. However, if you stated that income as part of your embassy income letter and immigration accepted the letter, then it would work. However, the issue would come up if you were asked about the source of the income, proof of it, etc. which of course sometimes does happen. I doubt anyone here can tell you for sure whether that would always be accepted or rejected at that point. I think it would vary officer to officer. If someone can point to written rule about this specific issue, please post it! Personally I wouldn't try it though.

Regarding the bigger question of is any income SOURCED in Thailand OK to use (for example passive income requiring no work), again, I don't believe there is any text in the official requirements saying the income must be foreign sourced.

Happy to be corrected, but that's a first shot at the question. I think he wants a definitive answer rather than the hedged one I gave; but not sure that's possible in this case.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Jingthing

[Mamasun]

I don't understand..the Swiss Ambassy gave me letter only with a proof from my pension in Switzerland..that its mean, that every year I need to contact my pension casse in Switzerland who send me here in Thailand a letter who say how much they pay every year...and then I send that to the Ambassy who send me back this letter...with an attestation who say how much i have by year ! ...

Interesting. This should keep immigration happy. I wonder what the embassy's letter looks like. They don't seem to have a specimen of it on their website.

here is a quick scan of the letter...

Edited June 17, 2011 by Mamasun

[Mamasun]

i am in schock...today I was in Nakhon si Thammarat for my 90 days....and I see a paper with new requirements for retirement visa !!

1 : need to have photo of you and your Thai family outside and inside your house !

2 : need to show that your farang pension is every month in a thai bank...

when i say i am a woman alone they have tell me I cannot stay in Thailand I need to have a Thai family !!!!!

wow It's mean that every farang on retirement visa if they don't have Thai family...go OUT

well I am so lost now , I don^t know what to thinck or how ..I am going to manage that situation...

I am on building my house here...I am so sad

I've read your post that you pointed to in the other TV thread... and it really makes no sense...

If the message was really about retirement extensions, how could they be talking about "photo of you and your Thai family outside and inside your house"?

That is the kind of documentation that might sometimes be requested in connection with a marriage-based extension... even though you weren't applying for that.

Either you've misunderstood what occurred, or the local office in question went off on a binge.... No such provisions are being applied by Thai Immigration for retirement extensions.

The Immigration rules are public and translated into English in various places, including here on ThaiVisa. And those rules clearly spell out the eligibility requirement for the various kinds of extensions... And they state nothing like what you have recounted.

Yes it make no sense at all for what it stress me...and this office other there don't have so many farang and even less of them with a retirement visa..almost only marriage !

I am waiting around 3 weeks to go there (90 days report )and see ...if this nice paper still there ! and to decide what to do for my next extension !

[Darrel]

Until you wake up some morning, check online, and find your Thai bank account has been emptied by a crooked bank employee or their BF/GF, or someone who's skimmed your card, or any variation of similar things...

I would be quite interested to see someone empty a time-deposit account before the term is up. Especially as the account has no card attached to it.

[Darrel]

You make the Declaration in front of a consular official within your Embassy not Thai Immigration.

In all cases you are legally responsible for what you sign for.

An example of what one might declare on a Statutory Declaration:

"I have income which meets the financial requirements of Thai Immigration for an extension of visa based on retirement."

You then sign the declaration in front of the consular official. The consular official will ask you if you are aware of the content of the declaration and the penalties for knowingly giving false information under the criminal code.

The consular official then signs and stamps the document.

And pockets a huge fee for having done precisely nothing. A declaration made before a consular official is totally pointless. You may as well make the same declaration in front of the Thai immigration inspector. It has just as much (or just as little) meaning, but at least it wpuld be done on Thai soil under Thai law, and so if you lie you do stand some chance of being prosecuted. Whereas if you lie to a consular official in a consulate they would have to wait until you returned to your own country to prosecute you. And would they care anyway? Surely not. Just as long as they have the fee they couldnt care less.

Declarations of income are a complete joke.

[jfchandler]

Until you wake up some morning, check online, and find your Thai bank account has been emptied by a crooked bank employee or their BF/GF, or someone who's skimmed your card, or any variation of similar things...

I would be quite interested to see someone empty a time-deposit account before the term is up. Especially as the account has no card attached to it.

Thai bank time deposit accounts certainly are a safer route than regular savings accounts, because of not having card and ATM access, though that wouldn't stop the account from being skimmed by a crooked bank employee...

However, as I recall, there also have been some instances reported here where SOME immigration officers have balked at the use of time deposit accounts for satisfying the income test.... Though, to be clear, as best as I can follow it, time deposit accounts ought to be generally accepted by Immigration as a place for holding the required 800,000 baht.

The Immigration regulation simply says funds in a bank in Thailand. It in no way specifies what kind of account must be used. Of course, that doesn't stop some Immigration offices or officers from bringing their own unique interpretations to such things.

[Penkoprod]

<huge snip>

Declarations of income are a complete joke.

It's sure looking that way

I would hate to have to go all the way to bangkok (a place i don't like all that much at the best of times)

Register with my (UK) Embassy and then to pay them money for something Thai Immigration can ignore at their whim, and ask me for the same paperwork i used to get the dam_n declaration of income letter in the first place.

All a bit "Chamberlainesque"......waving a piece of worthless paper about

Penkoprod

[Maestro]

here is a quick scan of the letter...

Thank you very much, Mamasun. I am adding it to my collection. I see it is for the government old-age pension (AVS). Good for Swiss retirees to know that the Swiss embassy does this.

[moe666]

Letters of Income Declaration form Embassy a joke not really since you need it for the 65,000Baht a month retirement extension

[Penkoprod]

Letters of Income Declaration form Embassy a joke not really since you need it for the 65,000Baht a month retirement extension

Well, what appears to be happening in a lot of different embassies is that the so called "income declaration" is morphing into no more than a declaration of signature

Which is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard, for the purpose of showing proof of income, with, of course the exeption of a few countries (like the Swiss one pasted above)

All they appear to say is "yup, that's the guy that told me he gets over 65,000 Baht a month.....but i aint going to say if he's lying or not"

Nothing more that that.

Correct me if i am way off beam, here (but dont expect me to wade through 29 pages of posts to find the info )

Penkoprod

Edited June 17, 2011 by Penkoprod

[Jingthing]

Here's a DUH idea for Thai immigration.

Create an office in Thailand where retired expats bring in an official letter of some kind from their government/corporate pension issuing body and have that certified as a guaranteed income for LIFE. Charge some baht for that.

Then enter that home country currency amount into the immigration computer system. It's good for life. Then for annual extensions, the applicant could use that automatic info in the computer to qualify if over the threshold. If not, the applicant could use the combo method and have the remainder in a Thai bank account. Of course exchange rates change so the applicant would need to fund their combo account to the current proper levels.

LATER, if and when the lifetime pension income goes up, the applicant can go to the same THAI office to prove with an official letter his new level of pension, also good for LIFE.

No more embassy letters!

Too logical?

Edited June 17, 2011 by Jingthing

[tropo]

Tropo: My rent, electricity and internet alone costs me over 360K.

Internet B500 Electricity B1500-2000

Rent B28,000 IN PATTAYA no less???

You might spend it but its a want, certainly not a need.

I can get a great apartment in Hawaii for that or baring that Phuket or even Singapore.

Very adequate accommodation can be had for B5000 up. Clean, secure. After that it's choice. I have a great place in the middle of Bangkok and I am paying < B5k and that includes Internet......

.....I really don't care. I will never put that sort of money in a Thai bank

I didn't say I pay 28K for rent - I pay 25K and for me it is a need, not a want.

I can get nothing decent for that rent where I would choose to live in Australia but I think your standard of decent is way different to mine because there's nothing in Thailand I could live in for 5000 baht per month. Perhaps you can live in a shed?

....by the same token, perhaps you can find a place good enough for you in Singapore and Hawaii for that (25K per month), but I doubt I could but I'm not interested in retiring in Singapore or Hawaii, so it's kind of pointless even mentioning it.

Your last sentence in the embedded quote above says it all. You make 65K sound like a king's ransom... money which doesn't even cover my basic living costs.... therefore we are on totally different pages so let's leave it at that.

Edited June 17, 2011 by tropo

[tropo]

It may be worth considering making your paragraphs much shorter, say no more than 5 lines. This will make your posts much easier to read and I feel more people will read them. After all you obviously put a lot of time and thought in to your posts so it makes sense that you would make it as easy as possible for people to read them.

Not a criticism just a helpful idea so please do not take offence.

That's a very good point and one that I've thought of bringing up many times (but didn't).

I usually skip over posts which are written in monster paragraphs. I think people forget that we're just "chatting" here and most don't wish to read essays.

[tropo]

Other countries UK, NZ, Canada, USA will have similar requirements as to the making of declarations.

You make the Declaration in front of a consular official within your Embassy not Thai Immigration.

In all cases you are legally responsible for what you sign for.

An example of what one might declare on a Statutory Declaration:

"I have income which meets the financial requirements of Thai Immigration for an extension of visa based on retirement."

You then sign the declaration in front of the consular official. The consular official will ask you if you are aware of the content of the declaration and the penalties for knowingly giving false information under the criminal code.

The consular official then signs and stamps the document.

You really should get your facts right before making sweeping assertions. People read these posts and will become misinformed if your information is incorrect.

The NZ system is different to Australia and USA, which is different again from Canada.

Here's the NZ way seen in this email from the NZ consular officer (whose name I have omitted):

2. Visa Letter / Statutory Declaration. For this, you need to come to the embassy with evidence of your income and your passport, and make a statutory declaration, stating your income. We attach supporting evidence - with the Embassy seal. Note: income is 65,000 per month. Kind Regards

Consular Officer,

New Zealand Embassy,

M Thai Tower, 14th Floor,

All Seasons Place, 87 Wireless Road,

Bangkok 10330

Edited June 17, 2011 by tropo

[tropo]

With reference to post #679.

An Australian Statutory Declaration is a legal document which if used outside of Australia is subject to a fee of about $!8AUD. For use within Australia no charge is levied.

Just got one yesterday. Exactly AUD 20 or 640 baht this month.

[moe666]

Letters of Income Declaration form Embassy a joke not really since you need it for the 65,000Baht a month retirement extension

Well, what appears to be happening in a lot of different embassies is that the so called "income declaration" is morphing into no more than a declaration of signature

Which is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard, for the purpose of showing proof of income, with, of course the exeption of a few countries (like the Swiss one pasted above)

All they appear to say is "yup, that's the guy that told me he gets over 65,000 Baht a month.....but i aint going to say if he's lying or not"

Nothing more that that.

Correct me if i am way off beam, here (but dont expect me to wade through 29 pages of posts to find the info )

Penkoprod

Yes I know all about the letter I have to get one as well. But go to immigration with out one and see who the joke is on.

[jfchandler]

Here's a DUH idea for Thai immigration.

Too logical?

As you've proposed it, Jing, it strikes me as a kind of dumb idea...

So, you want to exclude from consideration all the other kinds of non-pension income that people receive and use -- interest and dividend earnings....rental property income.... IRA distributions, etc etc...

Those aren't fixed and aren't guaranteed for life...unlike pensions... But they certainly are real and valid income that people can and should be able to use toward meeting the monthly income test in any given year... without having to plunk all the funds down in a useless Thai bank account.

PS- My govt. pension is adjusted for inflation annually, assuming there is a sufficient level of inflation. So in your scenario, I'd still be going back to your "office" to get the new amount certified again and again...

I'd suggest, we stop trying to "fix" the Thai system or in telling them how they can "improve" it... and concentrate on understanding what they're actually doing at present and how people here can best deal with it as it is.

Edited June 17, 2011 by jfchandler

[bkkharry]

Here's a DUH idea for Thai immigration.

Too logical?

As you've proposed it, Jing, it strikes me as a kind of dumb idea...

So, you want to exclude from consideration all the other kinds of non-pension income that people receive and use -- interest and dividend earnings....rental property income.... IRA distributions, etc etc...

Those aren't fixed and aren't guaranteed for life...unlike pensions... But they certainly are real and valid income that people can and should be able to use toward meeting the monthly income test in any given year... without having to plunk all the funds down in a useless Thai bank account.

PS- My govt. pension is adjusted for inflation annually, assuming there is a sufficient level of inflation. So in your scenario, I'd still be going back to your "office" to get the new amount certified again and again...

I'd suggest, we stop trying to "fix" the Thai system or in telling them how they can "improve" it... and concentrate on understanding what they're actually doing at present and how people here can best deal with it as it is.

Now there is a great quote--The Thai's have their way of doing things, so get over it. Just go with the flow. They make the rules/regulations and interpret them the way they see fit. Not much we can do about it.

[WholeHearted]

Have there been any actual reports from retirees going to Immigration (for example, in Chiang Mai) since the change was announced, and actually being asked for financial documentation (instead of or in addition to the usual notarized statement from one of the 3 consulates (US/UK/Aussie)? Or are there any reports of people not being asked for it?

[jfchandler]

There has been NO change "announced" in regards to requirements or procedures for retirement extensions....

There was the post that started this thread ostensibly written by a private company that makes money off of visa consulting claiming some change was occurring...

But after 28+ pages of posts here, there's been no confirmation of anything in the OP. And to the contrary, several posts by TV members, including ThaiVisa's resident expert on these matters, who have renewed their retirement extensions lately in exactly the same manner as has always occurred in the past.

As I've said previously, could something change in the future? Certainly... Is there any evidence of any broad policy or procedure change by Thai Immigration as yet? None.

[Jingthing]

I totally disagree that there have been "several" reports here reputing the OP's contention. Where are these several exactly? I read this thread and didn't see several. Talking about BANGKOK retirees of targeted nationalities most obviously Americans. Also, remember there was another thread started back in MARCH when this issue came up indicating American applicants were being explicitly warned that the change was coming and to be ready next time. That was about showing extra proof, not explicitly about import. Do I believe this change is really happening? No. I don't believe it is NOT happening either. I think it is very silly to jump to either conclusion without a lot more evidence.