Weighing Fish Versus Estimating Fish

[robblok]

First off its never my intention to offend people.

But here in Thailand the fish are often estimated to heavy. This is good for the owner of the fishpond / guide and the angler. Its good for the anglers ego and the reputation of the fishpond. Also the fishponds have to estimate high because other ponds do the same, if they don't people will not go to their pond.

So there is no mechanism to keep the estimates in check. I have weighted many fish first in a net and now in one of the 2 slings that i imported (and reinforced). In most case me and the Thais were off a lot. Always estimating the fish higher as they really were. I still go wrong with big fish. My 51 kg fish was estimated at 80 kg (almost twice the weight). I have seen this many times.

How many people really have a pair of scales and weigh the fish. Not many i think. So most are estimates. I will grant people this.. i wont weigh arapiama as these fish are delicate and hard to weigh. But most other fish can be weighed with proper equipment.

Who else thinks many fish are estimated much too high. ?

[robblok]

further more I think its quite easy to make your own sling (or get someone to make it). Just get some of the material used for cement bags or get better stuff. Get someone to sow it and insert some stainless poles. Then your done its better for the fish as weighing in a net. Its also easier.

The ones i bought are nice but they are hard to get here, because of the size many companies wont ship them to here. So make them yourself.

Also scales enough online, and places like BSR or shadow you can just tie them to the structure no need for a tripod.

[rufanuf]

error

Edited July 3, 2011 by rufanuf

[rufanuf]

I agree with you Robblok, and as I said on another thread...theres a big difference between over estimating due to the excitment of the catch than there

is deliberately exaggerating to win approval or customers (if your in the industry). What I find most strange about this, is why people deliberately overstate fish sizes when they are already magnificant large animals. I have weighed and submitted, and had approved a world record for the Arapiama at 86kg for a customer

and can say with a degree of certainty that it is much larger than lots of fish I have seen touted at 180kg. A 180kg Arapiama really is a monster and I have only seen maybe 3 fish in 6 years that might even come close, out of hundreds of fish, but even those fish I have later usually downgraded to 140kg to 160kg. Heres a couple to consider

(It didnt stand long becuase due to fishing politics the IGFA does not want the Arapaima record to be held here in Thailand, they would rather have a dead fish out of Peru that had been captured years prior! Strange considering they claim they are a conservation minded organisation! Rather set an example with a dead fish of an endangered species than fish stock for sport!!!)

I have weighed on callibrated scales at least 8 Giant Siamese over the 50kg mark, and believe me they are a serious lump, much bigger than most people who have nver captured a carp this size realise, most people dont handle really big carp too well, so if you see someone holding a big carp on their own, often it is way short of 50kg, even if that person is in the water,big carp are barrel shaped and its really hard to simply hoist them up with your hands underneath them (as opposed to around them).

I didnt put 50kg on this carp here as I didnt have scales with me, so estimated it at 90lb to 100lbs, but some who have compared this fish with others they know where 50kg have said it might be...Ive handled a few fish in this bracket....I felt maybe 45kg though, wich I new for sure as it is my PB Siamese Carp.

Edited July 3, 2011 by rufanuf

[rufanuf]

I agree with you Robblok, and as I said on another thread...theres a big difference between over estimating due to the excitment of the catch than there

is deliberately exaggerating to win approval or customers (if your in the industry). What I find most strange about this, is why people deliberately overstate fish sizes when they are already magnificant large animals. I have weighed and submitted, and had approved a world record for the Arapiama at 86kg for a customer

and can say with a degree of certainty that it is much larger than lots of fish I have seen touted at 180kg. A 180kg Arapiama really is a monster and I have only seen maybe 3 fish in 6 years that might even come close, out of hundreds of fish, but even those fish I have later usually downgraded to 140kg to 160kg. Heres a couple to consider

(It didnt stand long becuase due to fishing politics the IGFA does not want the Arapaima record to be held here in Thailand, they would rather have a dead fish out of Peru that had been captured years prior! Strange considering they claim they are a conservation minded organisation! Rather set an example with a dead fish of an endangered species than fish stock for sport!!!)

I have weighed on callibrated scales at least 8 Giant Siamese over the 50kg mark, and believe me they are a serious lump, much bigger than most people who have nver captured a carp this size realise, most people dont handle really big carp too well, so if you see someone holding a big carp on their own, often it is way short of 50kg, even if that person is in the water,big carp are barrel shaped and its really hard to simply hoist them up with your hands underneath them (as opposed to around them).

I didnt put 50kg on this carp here as I didnt have scales with me, so estimated it at 90lb to 100lbs, but some who have compared this fish with others they know where 50kg have said it might be...Ive handled a few fish in this bracket....I felt maybe 45kg though, wich I new for sure as it is my PB Siamese Carp.

[rufanuf]

I should say Thai Visa Forum seems to have gone mental keeps reposting parts of the same thread in error.....anyway those fish pictured above (1 courtesy of Fish Thailand, the others Siam Fishing Tours) those two Arapaima are the largest I have seen ever, and even those now with experience and hindsight I would question that they weigh in excess of 160kg (its possible but not likely)Im thinking more 140kg to 160kg. The carp maybe 45kg as i have photos of weighed fish over 50kg that look only marginally larger....where this leaves fish that are clearly much smaller yet claimed at ridiculous wieghts im not really sure!

[Lucky2]

I should say Thai Visa Forum seems to have gone mental keeps reposting parts of the same thread in error.....anyway those fish pictured above (1 courtesy of Fish Thailand, the others Siam Fishing Tours) those two Arapaima are the largest I have seen ever, and even those now with experience and hindsight I would question that they weigh in excess of 160kg (its possible but not likely)Im thinking more 140kg to 160kg. The carp maybe 45kg as i have photos of weighed fish over 50kg that look only marginally larger....where this leaves fish that are clearly much smaller yet claimed at ridiculous wieghts im not really sure!

Hi Rufanuf,

Are you saying that you have only personally seen one arapiama caught over 90kg?

I know you witnessed both these arapaima catches. What would be your estimate of these fish?

[Lucky2]

I should say Thai Visa Forum seems to have gone mental keeps reposting parts of the same thread in error.....anyway those fish pictured above (1 courtesy of Fish Thailand, the others Siam Fishing Tours) those two Arapaima are the largest I have seen ever, and even those now with experience and hindsight I would question that they weigh in excess of 160kg (its possible but not likely)Im thinking more 140kg to 160kg. The carp maybe 45kg as i have photos of weighed fish over 50kg that look only marginally larger....where this leaves fish that are clearly much smaller yet claimed at ridiculous wieghts im not really sure!

Hi Rafunuf,

I believe there is a pet 25 year old arapaima around the 300kg mark that was weighed when it was purchased by Benny sitting in the Palm Tree Lagoon stock pond that you can hand feed.

Have you not seen this one?

Benny bought it in April from a Thai family that had it in their garden pond and sold it because it was getting to expensive to feed.

She aquired it because she wanted to own the biggest Arapaima in Thailand. It currently consumes over 10kg of chicken and batu a week.

It may have put on a few kg since then as last week she drained the water down in the stock pond to get the 15 x 3-5kg carp out and put them in the main lake and found the arapaima had porked its way through 12 of them lol...

Also Gilhams had one die a couple of years ago that they weighed at 190kg, and he still maintains he has arapiama over 200kg in the lake....

I believe you have fished Gilhams in the past did you not see any big arapaima caught down there?

[robblok]

I am sure pictures have been taken of the official weighing of the fish at 300kg ? Could those be posted or is this an other estimate.

I am curious how a 300kg fish is weighed as there are not many scales available that can do that. Let alone a sling big enough to house such a fish.

So i guess its a guesstimate ?

Please prove me wrong, as it would be a great event knowing there is a 300 kg arapaima around.

Arapaima can reach lengths of more than 2 m (6.6 ft), in some exceptional cases even more than 2.5 m (8.2 ft) and over 100 kg (220 lbs). The often cited maximum length of 4.5 m (14.8 ft)[2][3] comes from a single second-hand-report from the first half of the nineteenth century, and is not confirmed.[citation needed] The maximum-cited weight for the species is 200 kg (440 lbs). As one of the most sought after food fish species in South America, it is often captured primarily by handheld nets for export, by spearfishing for local consumption, and, consequently, large arapaima of more than 2 m are seldom found in the wild today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arapaima

a picture of the scales and setup to weigh a 300 kg fish would be great. Im sure its available to verify this story ?

Edited July 4, 2011 by robblok

[Impkenai]

I really don't care about the weight of the fish I caught. I'm fishing for fun. Whether I'm targetting predators, carps or just minnows, I'm happy catching them with the appropriate equipment. I had as much fun catching minnows on 2 lb lines as catching araipamas on 30 lb lines.

Anyway I have not met a fisherman that does'nt lie. LOL

[robblok]

I really don't care about the weight of the fish I caught. I'm fishing for fun. Whether I'm targetting predators, carps or just minnows, I'm happy catching them with the appropriate equipment. I had as much fun catching minnows on 2 lb lines as catching araipamas on 30 lb lines.

Anyway I have not met a fisherman that does'nt lie. LOL

Nice to meet you my name is Rob.. i dont lie about the size or weight of fish i caught. Im your first.

I am just of the opinion that guessing weights is just totally wrong. Just weigh em or don't even speculate about the weight.

Now a story of a 300kg araipama, while biologist state 200kg as upper limit. I will believe it if there are some pictures of it really being weighted.

The thing is the whole Thai fishing scene is crazy. Everyone is estimating fish and wanting to outdo other fishing ponds. All say they "weigh" fish but i have never seen a picture of a fish in a sling with a good pair of scales to back the stories up.

I would imagine that with a big fish there would always be pictures taken.

[huuwi]

hi,

i'm not a pond fisherman, i run a charter company in phuket and the andamans.

if you have scaled a lot of fish (for me mostly gt's) then i think it's ok to estimate a fish, so you not scale every fish and put more stress on it when you want release him

but i have to tell you, you are right with your post, just keep in mind

"when the needle drops, the bullshit stops"

have fun fishing.

huuwi

[robblok]

hi,

i'm not a pond fisherman, i run a charter company in phuket and the andamans.

if you have scaled a lot of fish (for me mostly gt's) then i think it's ok to estimate a fish, so you not scale every fish and put more stress on it when you want release him

but i have to tell you, you are right with your post, just keep in mind

"when the needle drops, the bullshit stops"

have fun fishing.

huuwi

Your right about when the needle drops the bullshit stops.

Especially here where its in the interest of the people in the industry to guesstimate high to attract more clients. If the competition of a lake is doing it im sure they are inclined to do it to. Thus ending in a never ending circle of bullshit.

So i stand by only weighing will help.

[huuwi]

robblok,

me and many other, we are sale dreams, our advertising is full with nice picture,

with sometime weight 's written on them.

Most of the time they are estimated, marlin, sail or shark, as we release them.

Some like to overestimat, but thats there problem.

Myself, yes I do estimat and I can see the look of my guest when I tell them a very low weight.

I estimated a Sailfish in the Andamans at 30kg and after try to release the fish, what was not successful we weight the fish and

it was a very well feed fish of 42kg. mh shame on me, but I can live with that

have fun fishing

huuwi

[robblok]

Huuwi,

That sound fair.. but im talking pond fishing. Its totally different because the fish cant get away potential clients will look at the stock and when i stock is guestimated heavier bigger more people will come and pay more.

So its different, i would not really care about it with ocean fishing. Because we can all fish at the same spots and have the same potential. That is not the same with ponds. The pond that you choose gives you the potential. The owners know that and so they boast about their stock.

[Backwoods]

Well last time out I caught 2 fish that weighed over 400lbs! I know how much they weighed because I could see the "Scales" on their back!!

[ufishin]

You point is correct about over estimating for ponds to get more clients. It is about the experience of fishing and having a great day catching fish, hanging with friends, or even a nice environment with great food. I think the stock is one point at a fishing park, but also the service is just as important for me. I went to Gnau Nam that you were talking about for the first time, and it was a great experience.

Thanks,

thanh

[robblok]

You point is correct about over estimating for ponds to get more clients. It is about the experience of fishing and having a great day catching fish, hanging with friends, or even a nice environment with great food. I think the stock is one point at a fishing park, but also the service is just as important for me. I went to Gnau Nam that you were talking about for the first time, and it was a great experience.

Thanks,

thanh

For me its also about a great day out with my friends and the environment. (too bad they dont solve the garbage problem at ngau nam).But i like to know what the potential of the lake is too. Only i like real weights not overinflated ones. Scales don't lie and they give you and other fisherman a true indication of a lake. Because you can't compare estimates of people because you never know how many kg they added.

I cant wait to go fishing again next month. I will be at ngau nam (shadow lake) and bungsamran. Both are really different but i enjoy both.

[stiggy]

Pointless weighing fish anyhow.

Caught a 36lb1oz Niger catfish in Thailand weighed using IGFA registered scales witnessed by IGFA official members etc etc..

Whole process took ages video eveidence etc, was confirmed at the time it smashed the current world record.

IGFA memebership paid then they wanted the end rig that was used (barbless hook ) to clarify recordthen more questions silly demands.Apperaed to me some one at IGFA does not tlike Thailand getting any glory.

End result fish was stressed for uneccesary time to satisfy IGFA standards, money was spent to IGFA and they behaved worse than an insurance company tying to wiggle out of a claim.

Gave up in the end couldnt be bothered.

If your serious about weights of fish want the glory of a record, consider who really cares is it worth the fish getting stressed is it worth the run around with jobworth officials after ?

From my experience you can say caught a record fish , no one believes you anyhow.

In future for me a guestimate is just fine , as for the tourists they love it to.

After all catch and realease fishing is just some fun right !

Edited July 5, 2011 by stiggy

[robblok]

Stiggy,

I dont weight to set records. When i weigh i put it in my sling and after that dump it back in the water. Its all quite fast and is not really going to stress the fish at all.

What i am combating is the crazy estimates that ponds and some people in the industry bring out. Estimates are good as long as they are close and not way off to inflate the importance of the pond or the ego of the fisherman.

[quiksilva]

I couldn't care less what the fish weighs. A quick photo to savour the memory is all that's needed, and only then if :-

1. its big
   
2. fought particularly well, or
   
3. its a new species (to me)
   

[robblok]

I couldn't care less what the fish weighs. A quick photo to savour the memory is all that's needed, and only then if :-

1. its big
   
2. fought particularly well, or
   
3. its a new species (to me)
   

For me weight is important so i can keep track of what i caught before and how big it is in relation to the others that i caught.

But then you see the crazy estimates on the board here...like 300kg araipaima or carps or catfish totally out of touch with reality. Then yes it does get me crazy a bit because if you don't weigh it.. then don't mention a weight.

Edited July 5, 2011 by robblok

[stiggy]

We must all remember end of the day we are grown men that have our pictures taken holding fish of various sizes ...

Some would call that quite sad prsonally I enjoy it < in fact plan to go this week to do the same again.

[robblok]

We must all remember end of the day we are grown men that have our pictures taken holding fish of various sizes ...

Some would call that quite sad prsonally I enjoy it < in fact plan to go this week to do the same again.

I will do it again next month. But actually i almost never take a picture with a fish unless its really big. I dont even have a camera with me when i go fishing.

[rufanuf]

I should say Thai Visa Forum seems to have gone mental keeps reposting parts of the same thread in error.....anyway those fish pictured above (1 courtesy of Fish Thailand, the others Siam Fishing Tours) those two Arapaima are the largest I have seen ever, and even those now with experience and hindsight I would question that they weigh in excess of 160kg (its possible but not likely)Im thinking more 140kg to 160kg. The carp maybe 45kg as i have photos of weighed fish over 50kg that look only marginally larger....where this leaves fish that are clearly much smaller yet claimed at ridiculous wieghts im not really sure!

Hi Rafunuf,

I believe there is a pet 25 year old arapaima around the 300kg mark that was weighed when it was purchased by Benny sitting in the Palm Tree Lagoon stock pond that you can hand feed.

Have you not seen this one?

Benny bought it in April from a Thai family that had it in their garden pond and sold it because it was getting to expensive to feed.

She aquired it because she wanted to own the biggest Arapaima in Thailand. It currently consumes over 10kg of chicken and batu a week.

It may have put on a few kg since then as last week she drained the water down in the stock pond to get the 15 x 3-5kg carp out and put them in the main lake and found the arapaima had porked its way through 12 of them lol...

Also Gilhams had one die a couple of years ago that they weighed at 190kg, and he still maintains he has arapiama over 200kg in the lake....

I believe you have fished Gilhams in the past did you not see any big arapaima caught down there?

Now I know your pulling my plonker Tim, but sounds like a 180kg fish? Id like to see that of course. The point Im trying to make is that if everybody estimates fish sizes, and with time and experience they realise they estimate way over the top, its not long before everybody has a completely distorted view of fish sizes. I personally had to downgrade my estimates on most of the Arapaima we have captured with guest including the 2 you pictured above over the last few years. One of which Benny asked me what I thought and suggested a 109kg. I accepted that estimate at the time, but believe it looks like the same fish that has recently been estimated at 180kg by another customer at Palm Tree.

Having this year handled some really big Arapaima (as you have at Lake Monsters in the past)...Im now reasonably confident that 180kg is the abolsute ceiling for these fish, and I beleive out of hundreds of fish we have capured I have only seen maybe 3 in the 150kg plus bracket, based on a broader experience than most people.

As peoples experience grows their estimates of wieghts start to decline.

[rufanuf]

This fish was weighed on callibrated scales at 86.3kg measured 42 inches round and 72 inches long. We have since caught much larger fish....but twice the size? No, and we have caught the biggest fish available to catch anywhere. I think the biggest fish we have captured are in the 160kg/180kg area, but most of those fish have gone now sadly.

[rufanuf]

The fish pictured left was weighed on callibrated scales at 86.3kg measured 42 inches round and 72 inches long, and stood as the IGFA World Record for a few weeks (until it was guzzumped by politics).

We have since caught much larger fish....but twice the size? Maybe just 1 or 2,(one good one at Palm tree several years ago) and we have caught the biggest fish available to catch anywhere. I think the biggest fish we have captured are in the 160kg/180kg area, but most of those fish have gone now sadly. Ive placed that weighed fish alongside one that it was implied recently is 180kg...can you see twice the flesh there? I certainly cant.

If you consider that Bungsamran has been the best breeding pen in the world for Arapaima for 25 years (teaming with Tilapia and other bait fish the Arapaima just sit in ambush sucking in fish as they swim by thier mouths), it has had the biggest Arapaima available to catch anywhere in the world for that reason....I used to think the biggest ones where huge (like 300kg) until we saw a few captured this year. These really big fish are 60 inches and more around the girth, and until they reach that girth they will never attain weights in excess of 140kg.

Edited July 6, 2011 by rufanuf

[robblok]

Now I know your pulling my plonker Tim, but sounds like a 180kg fish? Id like to see that of course. The point Im trying to make is that if everybody estimates fish sizes, and with time and experience they realise they estimate way over the top, its not long before everybody has a completely distorted view of fish sizes. I personally had to downgrade my estimates on most of the Arapaima we have captured with guest including the 2 you pictured above over the last few years. One of which Benny asked me what I thought and suggested a 109kg. I accepted that estimate at the time, but believe it looks like the same fish that has recently been estimated at 180kg by another customer at Palm Tree.

Having this year handled some really big Arapaima (as you have at Lake Monsters in the past)...Im now reasonably confident that 180kg is the abolsute ceiling for these fish, and I beleive out of hundreds of fish we have capured I have only seen maybe 3 in the 150kg plus bracket, based on a broader experience than most people.

As peoples experience grows their estimates of wieghts start to decline.

I think you are right with the 180kg ceiling. That is more in line with what biologist say. Granted an araipaima in a pond will be better fed. On the other hand many fish grow larger in large waters. Not sure how that works but something about space and length is definitely there.

Its not my intention to attack people though i write things feisty and question people. For real im quite a nice guy. But im a skeptic by nature, goes with the job. I am an accountant and i never take someone's word for it unless i have verified it on a reasonable way or when i say that the person stating it has absolutely nothing to gain by saying it.

I hope i will see you again, you seemed like a nice guy. Who knows next time im around your area with my dad.

As for \Lucky lets put it this way i will respect your knowledge of catching fish as you obviously do it more often as me. Im not so confident about your estimates as you got something to gain. But when presented with proof i will always back down and offer my apologies. I am not above admitting my mistakes and like everyone i make them too.

[rufanuf]

Now I know your pulling my plonker Tim, but sounds like a 180kg fish? Id like to see that of course. The point Im trying to make is that if everybody estimates fish sizes, and with time and experience they realise they estimate way over the top, its not long before everybody has a completely distorted view of fish sizes. I personally had to downgrade my estimates on most of the Arapaima we have captured with guest including the 2 you pictured above over the last few years. One of which Benny asked me what I thought and suggested a 109kg. I accepted that estimate at the time, but believe it looks like the same fish that has recently been estimated at 180kg by another customer at Palm Tree.

Having this year handled some really big Arapaima (as you have at Lake Monsters in the past)...Im now reasonably confident that 180kg is the abolsute ceiling for these fish, and I beleive out of hundreds of fish we have capured I have only seen maybe 3 in the 150kg plus bracket, based on a broader experience than most people.

As peoples experience grows their estimates of wieghts start to decline.

I think you are right with the 180kg ceiling. That is more in line with what biologist say. Granted an araipaima in a pond will be better fed. On the other hand many fish grow larger in large waters. Not sure how that works but something about space and length is definitely there.

Its not my intention to attack people though i write things feisty and question people. For real im quite a nice guy. But im a skeptic by nature, goes with the job. I am an accountant and i never take someone's word for it unless i have verified it on a reasonable way or when i say that the person stating it has absolutely nothing to gain by saying it.

I hope i will see you again, you seemed like a nice guy. Who knows next time im around your area with my dad.

As for \Lucky lets put it this way i will respect your knowledge of catching fish as you obviously do it more often as me. Im not so confident about your estimates as you got something to gain. But when presented with proof i will always back down and offer my apologies. I am not above admitting my mistakes and like everyone i make them too.

I think everyone has got something to gain when estimating fish sizes, thats the problem...its a classic anglers tale. For me once I crossed over from being a fisherman for pleasure and made it a business, I wanted to be professional, and part of that includes, if a customer wants me to, to try and accurately assess weights of fish. I used to be way off, Ive gotten a lot better at it. Although professionally speaking that desire comes into conflict with another element of being professional which is care and humane handling of fish...that being said even Arapaima CAN be weighed if there is a clear protocol (and suitable equipment) in place for handling fish that a team (as a team is needed to handle big fish) has practiced and understands. The Arapaima we weighed at Lake Monsters (The only one in 6 years) actually jumped out of the pen after it had been weighed! And left in perfect health (subsequently we captured it again some months later). The problem is when estimates get so out of wack that anyone can see they are wrong...then it causes at best a debate (which is fine), or at worst garners a bad reputation for the venue or a guide. Mind you there is a flip side to that! If you needlessly weigh fish that are so average as to be boring just in order to paste up records or gain reputation that is again in my view utterly unprofessional, putting fish thru undue stress for??? Again theres always something to gain I guess sadly.

Perhaps everyone should agree not to estimate fish sizes at all, and only take wieghed fish as gospel if they are on a third parties set of scales LOL That would pretty much put the debate to bed.

[robblok]

I think everyone has got something to gain when estimating fish sizes, thats the problem...its a classic anglers tale. For me once I crossed over from being a fisherman for pleasure and made it a business, I wanted to be professional, and part of that includes, if a customer wants me to, to try and accurately assess weights of fish. I used to be way off, Ive gotten a lot better at it. Although professionally speaking that desire comes into conflict with another element of being professional which is care and humane handling of fish...that being said even Arapaima CAN be weighed if there is a clear protocol (and suitable equipment) in place for handling fish that a team (as a team is needed to handle big fish) has practiced and understands. The Arapaima we weighed at Lake Monsters (The only one in 6 years) actually jumped out of the pen after it had been weighed! And left in perfect health (subsequently we captured it again some months later). The problem is when estimates get so out of wack that anyone can see they are wrong...then it causes at best a debate (which is fine), or at worst garners a bad reputation for the venue or a guide. Mind you there is a flip side to that! If you needlessly weigh fish that are so average as to be boring just in order to paste up records or gain reputation that is again in my view utterly unprofessional, putting fish thru undue stress for??? Again theres always something to gain I guess sadly.

Perhaps everyone should agree not to estimate fish sizes at all, and only take wieghed fish as gospel if they are on a third parties set of scales LOL That would pretty much put the debate to bed.

I dont weigh all my fish only the ones that stand out. But for you that is different of course because you have clients and for them every fish is exceptional.

I think your right don't estimate just weigh (but only exceptional ones). I don't think i will ever cross over to doing this for money because i enjoy it too much. I would not be fishing then but helping others fish. That is not the same for me.

I just do my accounting and when i have free time i just go out fishing. That might be 3 or sometimes more times a week.